tmcw/2014-07-16_oftc.txt

## 2014-07-16_oftc.txt
12:12 You have joined the channel
12:12 Topic: OpenStreetMap | New servers! https://twitter.com/OSM_Tech/status/487246616663818242 | Help: http://help.osm.org/ | FAQ: http://wiki.osm.org/FAQ
12:12 RichardF set the topic at: Jul 10, 2014, 10:49 AM
12:12 Mode: +nt
12:12 Created at: Sep 15, 2008, 10:59 PM
12:12 emacsen: also, I licensed MR in a very permissive way specifically because tmcw asked me to
12:13 emacsen: so he would contribute
12:13 tmcw: ah, we're already talking about this
12:13 tmcw: okay
12:13 tmcw: let's review our attempts at contributing to maproulette
12:13 tmcw: https://github.com/mvexel/remapatron/pull/11
12:14 emacsen: that codebbase was dead when you made the pull request.
12:14 simonpoole: RichardF is there something I can slick on to get a permalink to a route?
12:14 RichardF: simonpoole: yep, log in and save the route
12:15 tmcw: with no indication.
12:15 tmcw: much like my contributions to maproulette-front, which was also abandoned / deprecated with no indication
12:15 emacsen: tmcw, we told you in person at SOTM-US in SF, but, you're right, no indication on the ticket
12:16 tmcw: okay. let's speed up into the future https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette/issues/11
12:16 Richlv: <RichardF> OSM-based cycle routing for Western Europe now live at http://cycle.travel/map :) :)
12:16 Richlv: you, you... anti-something :)
12:17 RichardF: Richlv: I'll add more countries in time, just don't want to burst the server quite yet ;)
12:17 tmcw: how about some ignored pull requests? https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette/pull/12
12:18 pnorman: So there wasn't an agreement on moving to JS?
12:18 emacsen: tmcw, yup- we got rid of Coffeescript
12:18 Richlv: RichardF, i know, i'm just waiting before advertising it for latvia :)
12:18 emacsen: tmcw, it took twisting my arm, but we did it
12:18 RichardF: laughs
12:18 RichardF: I already need to rent a 64Gb instance from DigitalOcean to create the routing db every time, and they don't do 128Gb ones. I should look
12:18 RichardF: at EC2, but EC2 is horrid
12:18 pnorman: RichardF: EC2 is horrid, but well-suited for this kind of thing
12:19 RichardF: pnorman: oh, absolutely. it's just that you can get a DigitalOcean instance up and running, and OSRM installed on it, in less time than it takes to read two pages of EC2 docs
12:19 emacsen: so tmcw, the reason for a parallel project is that a year ago we weren't responsive to github issues you wrote? That's fair. I hope you reconsider though
12:19 simonpoole: RichardF BTW google thinks cycle.travel is a spammer
12:19 tmcw: basically, yes: our existing attempts to collaborate were mishandled
12:19 emacsen: also, there's a major difference between "No it's not a parallel project" and what you're saying
12:19 RichardF: simonpoole: Google are wankers
12:19 pnorman: Wait, you can get EC2 going properly with only two pages of docs?! You must show me these pages.
12:19 tmcw: so, it was reasonable to assume that future attempts would be mishandled as well.
12:20 emacsen: tmcw, right, so you're lying on the tickets
12:20 tmcw: which tickets?
12:20 RichardF: pnorman: heh, no, I didn't say two pages were _all_ that were needed...
12:20 emacsen: the to-fix tickets say "No this is not a maproulette clone"
12:20 emacsen: but you just said it is
12:20 emacsen: so, *someone* is not being forthright
12:20 tmcw: are you using the "royal you"
12:21 tmcw: i haven't commented on any to-fix tickets
12:21 emacsen: this is a MapBox project
12:21 tmcw: ah the royal mapbox you
12:21 tmcw: gotcha
12:21 emacsen: so I expect there to be a unified answer
12:21 tmcw: lol, a unified answer from the corporate hive-mind, yeah
12:22 tmcw: and, no, to-fix isn't a maproulette clone. it's an attempt at rethinking how we can fix the same issue
12:22 tmcw: if it was a maproulette clone it would be - you guessed it - a fork
12:22 tmcw: we would have clicked the fork button.
12:22 emacsen: tmcw, clone doesn't imply the same codebase
12:22 EdLoach: RichardF: Like "Sorry - we can't plan a route between the British Isles and Europe (there's a moat in the way). Please plan journeys to/from your ferry ports."
12:22 mvexel: tmcw, you got us - or at least me - at a time when I could commit only minimal time to MapRoulette. Ignored pull requests suck, I know, but I still have hopes we can come up with a way to work together on this
12:23 simonpoole: RichardF http://cycle.travel/map/journey/8101 just before the end it goes up a piece of track, were the track is not an issue, but the up bit is ... it the kind of thing where using incline would potentially help :-)
12:23 tmcw: mvexel: i certainly see a future for collaborating with you/maproulette (not sure emacsen will ever see us as 'the good guys')
12:23 RichardF: simonpoole: ok, right. is it the steepness of the incline that's the issue?
12:23 larryone1: ping
12:23 emacsen: I'm not going to argue with you tmcw. You're clearly angry that your tickets were ignored. I'm sorry. I wish I had done a better job (like mvexel said). But I do feel a bit frustrated at how this has gone down
12:23 tmcw: ideally something like to-fix serves as a central backend that makes non-maproulette-based datasources into maproulette-able databases
12:24 emacsen: tmcw, think of it this way- all the things you asked for in tickets got done
12:24 tmcw: sure, as am i - it was frustrating to try to contribute to maproulette and see the stuff get ignored
12:24 simonpoole: otherwise the route is fairly sane, I didn't take quite the same route today (was the first part of an 80k loop)
12:24 mvexel: tmcw, I started a thread with the maintainers of OSM Inspector, keepright, Osmose a little while ago to come up with a unified bug store, Aaron was included as well
12:25 emacsen: the frontend was redone in pure JS (we use react, but no coffeescript) and we put iD support very early on
12:25 simonpoole: RichlardF I'm fairly sure that it is so steep that traction would be an issue :-)
12:25 tmcw: like - it got done, after my contributions were turned away / ignored, and it got done without reference to the github issue
12:25 RichardF: laughs
12:25 RichardF: simonpoole: ok, understood :)
12:25 tmcw: like: https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette/issues/11 you should have referenced this issue if you ported to javascript, or mentioned in the issue that you did
12:25 simonpoole: not that there is likely incline tags on it
12:25 RichardF: who needs tags, we have elevation data!
12:25 emacsen: tmcw, you're right, we should have
12:25 RichardF: I should probably just make the elevation calculations a bit more logarithmic
12:26 simonpoole: but it does go up straight
12:26 tmcw: not doing basic community stuff like "telling people what you're doing and when" is just as important as coding, and forgetting to do it is a serious problem if you're trying to attract open source contributors
12:26 emacsen: tmcw, Yeah, you're right. Maybe the answer would have been to not be so public early on
12:27 emacsen: because code was in flux daily
12:27 tmcw: no: the answer would be to manage your process in the open
12:27 emacsen: now it's not. now it's stable
12:27 tmcw: 'code in flux daily' does not mean 'no github issues and discussion'
12:27 emacsen: tmcw, you're right-it's just a hell of a lot harder
	12:12 You have joined the channel
	12:12 Topic: OpenStreetMap \| New servers! https://twitter.com/OSM_Tech/status/487246616663818242 \| Help: http://help.osm.org/ \| FAQ: http://wiki.osm.org/FAQ
	12:12 RichardF set the topic at: Jul 10, 2014, 10:49 AM
	12:12 Mode: +nt
	12:12 Created at: Sep 15, 2008, 10:59 PM
	12:12 emacsen: also, I licensed MR in a very permissive way specifically because tmcw asked me to
	12:13 emacsen: so he would contribute
	12:13 tmcw: ah, we're already talking about this
	12:13 tmcw: okay
	12:13 tmcw: let's review our attempts at contributing to maproulette
	12:13 tmcw: https://github.com/mvexel/remapatron/pull/11
	12:14 emacsen: that codebbase was dead when you made the pull request.
	12:14 simonpoole: RichardF is there something I can slick on to get a permalink to a route?
	12:14 RichardF: simonpoole: yep, log in and save the route
	12:15 tmcw: with no indication.
	12:15 tmcw: much like my contributions to maproulette-front, which was also abandoned / deprecated with no indication
	12:15 emacsen: tmcw, we told you in person at SOTM-US in SF, but, you're right, no indication on the ticket
	12:16 tmcw: okay. let's speed up into the future https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette/issues/11
	12:16 Richlv: <RichardF> OSM-based cycle routing for Western Europe now live at http://cycle.travel/map :) :)
	12:16 Richlv: you, you... anti-something :)
	12:17 RichardF: Richlv: I'll add more countries in time, just don't want to burst the server quite yet ;)
	12:17 tmcw: how about some ignored pull requests? https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette/pull/12
	12:18 pnorman: So there wasn't an agreement on moving to JS?
	12:18 emacsen: tmcw, yup- we got rid of Coffeescript
	12:18 Richlv: RichardF, i know, i'm just waiting before advertising it for latvia :)
	12:18 emacsen: tmcw, it took twisting my arm, but we did it
	12:18 RichardF: laughs
	12:18 RichardF: I already need to rent a 64Gb instance from DigitalOcean to create the routing db every time, and they don't do 128Gb ones. I should look
	12:18 RichardF: at EC2, but EC2 is horrid
	12:18 pnorman: RichardF: EC2 is horrid, but well-suited for this kind of thing
	12:19 RichardF: pnorman: oh, absolutely. it's just that you can get a DigitalOcean instance up and running, and OSRM installed on it, in less time than it takes to read two pages of EC2 docs
	12:19 emacsen: so tmcw, the reason for a parallel project is that a year ago we weren't responsive to github issues you wrote? That's fair. I hope you reconsider though
	12:19 simonpoole: RichardF BTW google thinks cycle.travel is a spammer
	12:19 tmcw: basically, yes: our existing attempts to collaborate were mishandled
	12:19 emacsen: also, there's a major difference between "No it's not a parallel project" and what you're saying
	12:19 RichardF: simonpoole: Google are wankers
	12:19 pnorman: Wait, you can get EC2 going properly with only two pages of docs?! You must show me these pages.
	12:19 tmcw: so, it was reasonable to assume that future attempts would be mishandled as well.
	12:20 emacsen: tmcw, right, so you're lying on the tickets
	12:20 tmcw: which tickets?
	12:20 RichardF: pnorman: heh, no, I didn't say two pages were _all_ that were needed...
	12:20 emacsen: the to-fix tickets say "No this is not a maproulette clone"
	12:20 emacsen: but you just said it is
	12:20 emacsen: so, someone is not being forthright
	12:20 tmcw: are you using the "royal you"
	12:21 tmcw: i haven't commented on any to-fix tickets
	12:21 emacsen: this is a MapBox project
	12:21 tmcw: ah the royal mapbox you
	12:21 tmcw: gotcha
	12:21 emacsen: so I expect there to be a unified answer
	12:21 tmcw: lol, a unified answer from the corporate hive-mind, yeah
	12:22 tmcw: and, no, to-fix isn't a maproulette clone. it's an attempt at rethinking how we can fix the same issue
	12:22 tmcw: if it was a maproulette clone it would be - you guessed it - a fork
	12:22 tmcw: we would have clicked the fork button.
	12:22 emacsen: tmcw, clone doesn't imply the same codebase
	12:22 EdLoach: RichardF: Like "Sorry - we can't plan a route between the British Isles and Europe (there's a moat in the way). Please plan journeys to/from your ferry ports."
	12:22 mvexel: tmcw, you got us - or at least me - at a time when I could commit only minimal time to MapRoulette. Ignored pull requests suck, I know, but I still have hopes we can come up with a way to work together on this
	12:23 simonpoole: RichardF http://cycle.travel/map/journey/8101 just before the end it goes up a piece of track, were the track is not an issue, but the up bit is ... it the kind of thing where using incline would potentially help :-)
	12:23 tmcw: mvexel: i certainly see a future for collaborating with you/maproulette (not sure emacsen will ever see us as 'the good guys')
	12:23 RichardF: simonpoole: ok, right. is it the steepness of the incline that's the issue?
	12:23 larryone1: ping
	12:23 emacsen: I'm not going to argue with you tmcw. You're clearly angry that your tickets were ignored. I'm sorry. I wish I had done a better job (like mvexel said). But I do feel a bit frustrated at how this has gone down
	12:23 tmcw: ideally something like to-fix serves as a central backend that makes non-maproulette-based datasources into maproulette-able databases
	12:24 emacsen: tmcw, think of it this way- all the things you asked for in tickets got done
	12:24 tmcw: sure, as am i - it was frustrating to try to contribute to maproulette and see the stuff get ignored
	12:24 simonpoole: otherwise the route is fairly sane, I didn't take quite the same route today (was the first part of an 80k loop)
	12:24 mvexel: tmcw, I started a thread with the maintainers of OSM Inspector, keepright, Osmose a little while ago to come up with a unified bug store, Aaron was included as well
	12:25 emacsen: the frontend was redone in pure JS (we use react, but no coffeescript) and we put iD support very early on
	12:25 simonpoole: RichlardF I'm fairly sure that it is so steep that traction would be an issue :-)
	12:25 tmcw: like - it got done, after my contributions were turned away / ignored, and it got done without reference to the github issue
	12:25 RichardF: laughs
	12:25 RichardF: simonpoole: ok, understood :)
	12:25 tmcw: like: https://github.com/osmlab/maproulette/issues/11 you should have referenced this issue if you ported to javascript, or mentioned in the issue that you did
	12:25 simonpoole: not that there is likely incline tags on it
	12:25 RichardF: who needs tags, we have elevation data!
	12:25 emacsen: tmcw, you're right, we should have
	12:25 RichardF: I should probably just make the elevation calculations a bit more logarithmic
	12:26 simonpoole: but it does go up straight
	12:26 tmcw: not doing basic community stuff like "telling people what you're doing and when" is just as important as coding, and forgetting to do it is a serious problem if you're trying to attract open source contributors
	12:26 emacsen: tmcw, Yeah, you're right. Maybe the answer would have been to not be so public early on
	12:27 emacsen: because code was in flux daily
	12:27 tmcw: no: the answer would be to manage your process in the open
	12:27 emacsen: now it's not. now it's stable
	12:27 tmcw: 'code in flux daily' does not mean 'no github issues and discussion'
	12:27 emacsen: tmcw, you're right-it's just a hell of a lot harder