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Subtitles for "Shiv Malik_ Why We Need Data Unions to Support the Data Economy" Podcast
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An important note before we start.
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This episode was recorded on the 9th of Αpril 2021.
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This is when Shiv Malik was still
a part of Streamr as Head of Growth,
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now he's the CEO of Pool Foundation.
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Enjoy the episode.
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What has Web3 done to date? You've got money,
digital money, that's Βitcoin.
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Got contracts, really important, in with Ethereum.
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And we've got a way to trade 
and financialize all of that, 
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that's DEXs. What do NFTs represent in that schema?
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Assets.
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Well, what are some other great assets?
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Well, it's really hard to take a house
and put that on the blockchain.
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It's really really hard to do that.
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But data is worth trillions
and it's already digitally native, 
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but it is stuck in Web2.
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Voices of the Data Economy,
a podcast supported by Ocean Protocol Foundation.
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We bring to you the voices shaping the Data Economy 
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and challenging it at the same time.
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We talk about breaking down data silos
and equalizing access to data for all.
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Hey everyone, welcome to this episode
of Voices of the Data Economy.
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I'm here with Shiv Malik.
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Hey Shiv.
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Hey, hi, how are you doing?
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Nice to see you.
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And Diksha as always, hey Diksha.
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Hello both of you.
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Hello.
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Shiv, I think we met more than a year ago
in Berlin during the RadicalxChange conference.
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I always wanted to have,
like this kind of conversation on a podcast,
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so it's great to see you here.
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Yeah, it was a great event, that one in Berlin.
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It was like a year, yeah, a year and a half ago.
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It's just, it was a really intimate conference,
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there were some great connections 
to be made there and...
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Really tight space.
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Yeah it got very hot and sweaty,
very quickly, but, 
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I think that Trent was there,
Vitalik was there.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Always amusing, always amusing.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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So glad to know both of you 
already know each other, 
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but very glad to meet you for the first time Shiv
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and thank you for being a part of this episode.
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So you've been a former
investigative journalist with Guardian 
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and now you're the Head of Growth at Streamr,
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which is a decentralized platform for real-time data.
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Actually I'm really curious how you got into this world 
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of Data Economy from journalism and what's really,
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what really inspired you to get 
into this movement of data privacy.
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So I've been asked this question a few times
and I've never been able to answer it properly,
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because I’ve actually never given it,
I think proper thought, 
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like what is it that actually 
motivated me and post event,
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everyone has kind of post hoc rationalization.
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You're like, yeah I did it because 
of this and that makes sense, 
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but that usually isn't why it happened.
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Things are kind of serendipitous and things happen 
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and you're like, yeah sure
and it doesn't always make sense.
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So I kind of left the Guardian in 2016
and I was actually, 
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I was researching a book
on mutualism and cooperatives.
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And as part of that, someone said have you,
this is sort of yeah, 
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late 2016, do you know anything about Ethereum?
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Was like no.
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And so they showed me smart contracting
and the power of that.
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I knew about Bitcoin obviously
from being a journalist and the like, 
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but never really got into it. 
But I fell in love with Ethereum
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because I suddenly realized, right,
you can do all these things, 
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and just divvy up money in all sorts 
of interesting ways and actually,
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at first I was like, this is great 
because like all my transactions 
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will be in one place,
I can file my taxes so easily now.
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This is the future, so even at that 
level I was in love with Ethereum.
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I was like, no more accountants, 
I'm sold, sign me up.
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But then there was this other, 
I think deeper motivation for, 
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I kind of ended up with Streamr 
and why I'm kind of doing what
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I'm doing now with Data Unions
and that's journalism, investigative journalism.
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It’s about holding people to account,
holding power to account.
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And drilling down and
exposing what can't otherwise be, 
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sort of readily exposed.
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Usually wrongdoing.
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And I think that the Web3 space
also does that very well.
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And there's this weird other bit, 
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which is that I had always been 
interested in the Data Economy.
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In 2012, I was invited onto 
a new show to explain myself, 
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because I was deleting my Facebook account.
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It was such a weird thing to do
in 2012, they're like yes, 
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call Shiv on and, you know, 
trial by kind of public media.
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And then, even then
I was like, look we've all, 
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we're already becoming,
this is at the time of Facebook's IPO,
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I said we're becoming serfs.
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Data serfs and I don't 
want to be a slave anymore, 
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so that's why I'm deleting it.
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I don't want Mark Zuckerberg to be any richer
of the fact that I'm producing this value.
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So I've always had that and
then so you marry all those things up 
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and the journey starts to make sense I guess.
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So you just mentioned
Data Unions and that's something 
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that you've been speaking about a lot 
in the past and for the past one year,
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rather to be more specific, and Streamr, 
I think, went live in June last year, 
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with the beta version of Data Unions?
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So those who are not familiar, 
what actually is a Data Union 
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and in the practical world, 
how does it really work?
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Yeah, so, I mean,
I think most of your listeners 
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will be really familiar with
the fact that we all produced information
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and other people are harvesting 
that and profiting from it.
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And that seems inherently wrong.
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And there seems to be no way for ordinary people,
who are actually producing the value to actually
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retain any of that value themselves.
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So a Data Union is a way of
pooling data between various parties 
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and trying to monetize it, as a collective.
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And that sounds really simple,
that's actually a really, really old idea, 
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like it's, you can find stuff going 
dating back to the 90s for sure.
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About how this should be done
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and actually if you pull it 
together you'll still need 
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an organization in the middle 
because actually a lot of this stuff
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is about reaching out to data buyers.
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You need to pick up a phone 
and speak to people, right?
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Machines can't do that yet.
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Yet.
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Not far off of that happening,
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I'm sure.
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And you also need to
be able to market yourself 
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and attract new members, so you can 
have more data to this Data Union.
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So that's the kind of model
we went for and it's one really 
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well fleshed out by people
like Jaron Lanier and Glenn Weil,
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who we mentioned in regards to RadicalxChange
and that kind of thing, so they'd already kind of,
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lots of people have fleshed this out academically,
no one's really done it practically.
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And it turns out, when you try
and do it in practice, 
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there are some really,
like big stumbling blocks
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so that's what Streamr wanted to resolve.
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So what are the examples of Data Unions
that are there on blockchain, particularly?
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And I think some of you already have use cases 
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and partners that have 
successful models around this.
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Yeah, it's all starting to 
brew wonderfully and take off.
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It's, you know,
that's the most exciting thing.
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I can remember in January 2018,
we were sitting in the Streamr office in Zug
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and trying to come up with ideas, like, okay, 
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how do we kind of, at heart by the way,
I should explain Streamr’s initial
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and still, core aim is to 
create this peer-to-peer network 
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for messaging, for peer-to-peer 
messaging, in a decentralized fashion.
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So we already have things that 
do that, like Amazon AWS services 
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or UpCloud or whatever, but if you wanted
to run in a decentralized way,
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it's really difficult to do.
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It's the kind of thing that could 
power a smart city for example.
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And one of the ideas that
we came up with was obviously 
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Data Unions and a few months after that kind 
of fleshed out this original, like diagram.
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It should look like something 
like this, just like with a pen 
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and a ruler, like really,
really terrible wireframe drawing.
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The kind of thing that
I'm sure our designer looked at 
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and just like, you know, facepalm.
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What’s Shiv done again?
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But from that journey, we've now seen, I think,
four or five Data Unions start to emanate.
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The most prominent of which
is Swash, it has 20.000 members now.
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And what is Swash?
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It's a browser plugin,
so you downloaded this plugin, 
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it monitors your web browsing habits
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and obviously you're consenting to it,
because you're downloading it and you're getting
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the value returned right
into the browser plugin.
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You've got a wallet set up,
Ethereum wallet address 
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and you get paid,
every time that dataset sells.
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So 20.000 is a lot of people, 
I think they need to get 
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to about 50.000 before
they're like fully viable
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and they'll get buyers on board.
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Couple of other ideas, you can do
the same thing, it turns out for Spotify.
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If you want to port your Spotify 
real time stream of information.
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Not very privacy sensitive, so that's good,
port it to a pool of other people and you have
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a Data Union that gives buyers,
like information on what people listen to.
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Podcasts and songs and playlists, great!
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You know, that stuff, that Spotify 
doesn't sell, at the moment.
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And that the music industry really wants to know.
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Fitbit, you can do the same thing
with your Fitbit or Withings, in this case.
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Because they have an open API.
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Great!
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Take that information and bring health data, 
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that's already been set up by
a wonderful developer called Chalil.
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And then there's another project 
that's under the radar a little bit.
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Actually they're not,
they have a Twitter account, 
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so they tweeted, they're out 
in public, called Unbanks,
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same thing with financial transaction data.
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The banks already sell this information.
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Just they don't give you 
a cut of that, but you can 
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easily pool it yourself, through
open banking infrastructure in Europe.
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So, great!
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You have a widget read your
third party, it's your Data Union.
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It reads your banking transaction details.
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It makes sure it's done in
a really privacy-centric way, 
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so you can't be identified, but
then you've got a pool of that information,
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which is again, people will realize,
that's probably worth quite a lot of money.
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Great!
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Return that to the users.
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If I could jump in here.
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So all or most of these examples are data that 
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is already being produced 
and then these Data Unions
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or efforts, they're kind of adding 
a monetization layer on top.
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Do you know of any examples 
that data is primarily produced 
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for this use case of
Data Unions to be monetized?
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Yeah, so, are you asking this?
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Which is kind of, how do
Data Unions encourage data that, 
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yeah, just isn't really readily 
available to really be more.
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Yeah, it's like is it
financially viable one day 
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or for some use cases to 
generate data just for this?
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So we're not quite there in having that, 
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an actual example into the 
world yet, but we we're trying.
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We're almost getting there
I think, with pollution monitors.
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The pollution monitors are really expensive.
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If you want to buy them kind
of individually, like decent ones, 
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you know, kind of two, well not really
expensive, 200 dollars, right?
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Or 100 plus dollars, but 
you know it's, if suddenly, 
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if you add the feature that actually you 
could make this money back over time,
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then suddenly people go right, okay, 
I've got this and I've got this, 
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you know, hopefully it won't cost 100 dollars,
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it’ll cost me like 20 over three years,
because I'll get the money back.
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That's the kind of thing that we were looking for.
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So suddenly people are like, okay right,
we'll have one pollution monitor per street
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and suddenly you have really 
useful real-time information 
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about what's going on and people, 
obviously they care about their kids
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and they want to know, like, is it
a good time to go and walk to school?
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Or not?
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And if it isn't, I want
to complain to my counsel 
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and now I have the information 
to be able to do that.
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And the same thing, by the way, 
it turns up a noise pollution.
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People who live next to airports,  
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they have terrible time trying to like,
reduce that noise pollution.
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I mean, obviously for the
last year it's been an irrelevance, 
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but they all know it's coming back and then
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and we've had people emailing
us going, we want this system  
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and matching up the sensor maker
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00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,320
with a Data Union is a little tricky,
requires humans to talk, 
229
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,640
pick up the phone, but we're getting there.
230
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:06,720
That's fascinating.
231
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,840
So it's almost like a new revenue 
source for all of these IoT 
232
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:18,160
and kind of machine Data Economy 
tools that generate data,
233
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,440
but maybe they need government subsidies right now, 
234
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,240
and this is a new way for monetizing.
235
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:26,560
Yeah, that's right.
236
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:30,960
And you know, and there's other 
ways that you can think of.
237
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,120
There's a welter of ideas out there,
that we've kind of also had.
238
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,520
Because you can imagine, your phone, 
239
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,640
smartphones are amazing
devices at collecting information.
240
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,520
They have a whole load of 
internal sensors for a start, 
241
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,520
including obviously a camera 
amongst anything and noise devices.
242
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,960
And, as soon as you kind of allow
those individuals to then, 
243
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,480
you know, all you have to do is create 
an app that collects a specific dataset.
244
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,080
And then you can imagine, okay, 
245
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,400
now there's a monetary 
incentive for people to do this.
246
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,400
Then, that's how that takes off.
And then you can imagine half a dozen ideas.
247
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,960
I'm sure if we sat here for another
five minutes, we could come up with them.
248
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:13,520
Yeah.
249
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:14,720
It's all ultra playful.
250
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,440
And I think it's important 
to keep them like opt-in.
251
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,120
It means like, I would imagine 
probably in countries like China 
252
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,600
or like Thailand, where
data privacy regulations are not or,
253
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,640
I don't think they're non-existent, but they're
not as established as in Europe with GDPR.
254
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:37,920
You, like handset makers, manufacturers,
they might be selling phones in future that when
255
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,800
you just start booting up your phone, 
256
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,000
you just agree to some 
terms and conditions and one
257
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,960
of the lines says we're going 
to sell all of your sensor data 
258
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,360
for free and you don't get anything from.
259
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,440
I mean, this is what's happening now 
and it's causing all sorts of problems.
260
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,960
The first one is obviously,
a lot of people are getting rich, 
261
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,760
sorry a tiny group of people are getting 
very rich off the back of everyone else.
262
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:02,560
So that's the one part.
263
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,080
The second problem is, and they also have
a giant monopoly on the world's information.
264
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,880
That's not great, because it's going to get worse.
265
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,240
That also stymies innovation.
266
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,400
So, why do we only have, like,
in most countries in the west certainly, 
267
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,760
there's only one map application or two, Waze
268
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,120
and Google Maps, but
actually they're owned by the same company.
269
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,960
So that's what 21st century 
innovation has given us, one map app.
270
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,240
You're like, that's rubbish.
271
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,160
And like an Apple but no one uses Apple's, 
272
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,440
so, and the reason for that is because 
they have a monopoly on our location.
273
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:36,560
We create that data.
274
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,480
You know, I would like
other options but viable ones.
275
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,200
So if you take the
raw datasets away from them, 
276
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,840
anyone can build applications 
on top of the raw datasets
277
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,440
and that's the world we want to live in.
278
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,160
So, there are all those problems and
then the most interesting problem is this.
279
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,400
From the data bias perspective.
280
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,160
This is terrible data.
281
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,960
No one actually really wants this data,
but it's the only data they can get.
282
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:07,280
Why do you want to collect data under the table,
in a way that you're sort of spying on your users,
283
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,240
that you buried the consent on page 70 of a contract 
284
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,720
that you know no one's read, no one's read,
285
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,320
not even your lawyers have probably read it.
286
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:16,960
And that no one's going to 
object to, because they don't 
287
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,320
have time to like,
commission a lawyer and sit there
288
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,760
for four hours to read the term.
289
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:22,560
No one does that, right?
290
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,960
So you get, data is just
a by-product now of our digital lives, 
291
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,520
when actually you really wanted to be the product
292
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:30,640
and that's what Data Unions do.
293
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,800
You're like okay, look,
if you want to create good data products, 
294
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,360
get people to create the data,
who actually want to be part of this
295
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,440
and like, and are happy to do it.
296
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,960
Like, doesn't that make sense?
297
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,480
And you think that sounds nice and fluffy.
298
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,240
Should be like no,
it creates better data products by far, 
299
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,840
like much richer, much more 
interesting, much more stable,
300
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,560
much more sustainable data products.
301
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:53,760
And they're worth so much more.
302
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,800
That you can trust
and when you pay for data, 
303
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,520
you can trust that your access 
is not going to be cut off,
304
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,640
whereas, if you are building 
on top of Facebook or Google, 
305
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,320
like we know countless examples 
of startups getting their
306
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,000
API access shut down,
just because Google felt, 
307
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,320
"well they're extracting
more value from our ecosystem
308
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,640
and closed garden than we would like to".
309
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,120
Yeah, there's that problem
and then there's the other problem 
310
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:25,200
which is that, so these
data brokers go bust all the time.
311
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,880
You know, you kind of hear about it. 
Cambridge Analytica is the most famous, right?
312
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:29,440
Yeah.
313
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,080
Big data broker.
314
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,040
They went bust, right?
315
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,800
Pretty much overnight, like, effectively.
316
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,800
There was another one,
Jumphot, which went bust last year.
317
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,880
Huge company.
Well for the data science world, like, 
318
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,480
growing 30 million revenues,
growing probably to 70 million kind of,
319
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,800
within the next year,
that was a projection.
320
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,040
They had 400 people employed 
and literally within a week, 
321
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,920
when they got uncovered by, 
I think it was Motherboard,
322
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,160
which was owned by Vice magazine, 
323
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,200
within one week their
parent company shut them down.
324
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,613
That's insane.
325
00:18:00,613 --> 00:18:03,360
They’re like, yeah, we can't handle this 
and it's all about the ethics, nothing else.
326
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:05,360
Business was great,
like everything, all about the ethics.
327
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,600
You're like, we're spying, we can't spy on people,
you’re like, well you were doing that before.
328
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,360
This is almost as severe
as like when there's like a news 
329
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,360
about a company in, I don't know, 
Southeast Asia, using slave labor.
330
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:19,860
Yeah.
331
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,680
I think I coined this data slavery.
332
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,560
I did a whoa, you were even involved,
I'm not sure but like, 
333
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,040
there was some kind of podcast, 
they invited me and then like,
334
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,760
my talking point was all about
data slavery and it is really like that.
335
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,240
It's slavery of your digital twin.
336
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,160
I think, I mean look, people 
object to slavery, being used 
337
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,200
and bandied around like that 
because of the kind of actual,
338
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,080
yeah, right, the implications, 
historical implications of that 
339
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,880
and trivializing that historical experience.
340
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,560
So I kind of end up using
serfdom, because somehow we're less 
341
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,800
sensitive to the word serfdom. 
I'm sure people, historians of…
342
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:04,377
It’s really exploitation.
343
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:06,560
But it is true, it is.
344
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,600
Yeah and, you know, and it's really overt
345
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,800
and one interesting thing
that's just happened, is in California.
346
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,680
So, Enoch Liang from DDP,
which is the data dividend project, 
347
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,560
supported and founded by Andrew Yang,
who people, I'm sure will know.
348
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,040
They have been fighting
the legal good fight, if you want.
349
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,160
It's got to be fought by 
tech and in the courtroom.
350
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,200
And what they managed to get was a ruling 
351
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,840
from a California judge, 
in the last, I think month.
352
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,200
The case is called Calhoun, if you're 
interested in this, in looking it up.
353
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,320
Where the judge said, yeah,
there is a natural property right to data,
354
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,560
this stuff is worth something and yeah, 
355
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,640
and it's owned by the people
who create it like, that just should follow.
356
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,640
So, you know, more will emanate 
from that case and you know,
357
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,200
Americans, if America sets a standard
for property rights in data, 
358
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,640
then I think that battle is won. 
And Europe, legislatively speaking,
359
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:12,080
has struggled to, because of the way
that the law is set up in continental systems, 
360
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,000
struggle to confer a property 
right of data onto people,  
361
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,320
but it's doing it a slightly different way,
362
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,760
which is to basically legalize 
and give stamps of approval 
363
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,480
to data cooperatives and
a bunch of funding, two billion.
364
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,880
So that's all happening in Europe now.
365
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,920
This is a huge scene that’s about to take off...
366
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:32,420
Wow!
367
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:33,760
...in Web3.
368
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,280
So there's EU funding for data cooperatives.
369
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:37,780
Yeah.
370
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:39,840
Whoa! Then what’s….
371
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,840
There will be, yeah,
I mean they've said two billion, 
372
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,760
so the pot of money gets unlocked soon apparently.
373
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,040
What should people Google
to find about, find more about this?
374
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,280
About the EU funding?
375
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,000
Yeah, exactly!
376
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:57,760
Well it was announced,
I think about, when was it?
377
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,120
I'm getting confused whether 
it was, it wasn't November, 
378
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,760
it was, yes in January,
I think, on January and February,
379
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,160
the EU data strategy and
if you google, I think Vestiger,
380
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,920
who's the EU commissioner on this, 
you'll find the press release somewhere.
381
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,560
They're not going to shout about it until it's 
382
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,320
a little bit buried,
but it is in the press release.
383
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:19,520
Okay.
384
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,520
They're not going to shout about
it until it's actually up and running.
385
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:22,560
Okay.
386
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,160
But it will be match funding, yeah.
387
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,840
You're already putting in your
application now, I can see you writing.
388
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,320
It'll be match funding for people 
who have data cooperative ideas, 
389
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,200
which is great, because then, whatever Streamr
390
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,320
or other organizations put 
into this they'll get twice out 
391
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,680
and these ideas, some of them will fail, sure.
392
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,480
But I think there's enough good ideas that a lot
of them will start succeeding pretty quickly.
393
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,600
Yeah, and I think you also mentioned as one of this, 
394
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,360
the legislations and the grants as one of the biggest
395
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,760
wins for Data Unions, or to support Data Unions 
396
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,120
and one of them is the example you already mentioned.
397
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,520
So there are two parts to this question sort of, 
398
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,560
like, what are the other wins
that you can think of apart from this?
399
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,840
And geographically, which parts 
of the world do you feel are 
400
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:27,200
more receptive to a model like a Data Union,
or is it like, borderless sort of?
401
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:30,560
Nice question Diksha.
402
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:31,600
Always the best questions.
403
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:41,360
I would say that in theory every 
government should be pro this.
404
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,560
Because it does lend those two things.
405
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,160
One, it's clearly giving 
monetary value to ordinary people 
406
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,680
and returning it back to ordinary 
people, as opposed to companies
407
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,320
that are usually outside of their own country.
408
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,200
Unless you're America.
409
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,440
So that's always like a win.
410
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,040
If you're in any way a democratic or 
411
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,840
populist government, great, 
you're like, that sounds nice.
412
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,840
And also fair and just, as far as 
some kind of natural justice train.
413
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,840
But it also opens up the innovation, right?
414
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,040
So it's actually good for business.
415
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,760
And the people who monopolize
the data, they also know this too, 
416
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,760
but they can't help themselves from retaining 
their monopoly, because of their shareholders.
417
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:27,040
So, I think there was a report in Britain that 
said, if we did have full data portability, 
418
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,040
which is that people had the right to at least 
port their data to anywhere and you had to,
419
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:39,600
did a cooperative model effectively built in.
It would add 27 billion in pounds.
420
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:40,560
So what is that?
421
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,600
Off the top of my head is about
36 billion dollars in GDP, each year.
422
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:53,920
And that's a lot, it's about 10, oh it's 
about did five, yeah, five percent of what, 
423
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,640
yeah, scrap that statement, I better not do 
the math in my head, get it all horribly wrong.
424
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,640
But, you know, there's a substantial 
amount of money to any country, 
425
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:08,640
so, I think where it might not work and I mean,
426
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:14,240
you can also see it starting
to take off in, is absolutely in Europe 
427
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,560
and where Europe has led, I think other 
countries will have followed, especially on GDPR.
428
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,920
We are getting good noises from the US.
429
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,000
I think the UK will actually try
and because of the politics of it all, 
430
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,960
outgun the EU on this front, that's my wish.
431
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,640
And we've been talking to policymakers here.
432
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,680
In the UK we've been subsumed 
obviously by Brexit and Coronavirus, 
433
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,320
but I think they're getting 
their ducks in there in a row.
434
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,080
So that would be really interesting, if the 
UK decides to go even further than the EU.
435
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,520
And India I think has a natural 
resonance to this kind of  
436
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,160
this model, of kind of
grassroots cooperativism.
437
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:02,720
It’s built into the country's 
economic history in the last 100 years  
438
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,240
and it's also a democratic country.
439
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,600
I don't know where China will 
go with them, but who knows.
440
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:15,760
So coming back to Data Union,
I mean, I have a practical question.
441
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,480
Maybe you can tell me whether it makes sense.
442
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:25,120
So can I really choose who
to sell my data to and if I sell it, 
443
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,120
how can I be assured that it's the end user,
444
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:36,240
or really how do I know that it 
doesn't, can it basically be acquired?
445
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,560
Can a Data Union sort of be acquired?
446
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,240
Again, beautiful questions both.
447
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,560
So the first question is
about member preferences.
448
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,560
At the moment we don't have
a way, in a technological way,  
449
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,480
of signaling the preferences built.
450
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,240
But it's actually not that 
difficult to build that in.
451
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,680
So people basically say at the start, 
look these are the kinds of organizations  
452
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:02,880
I'm interested in selling to.
453
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,760
If you're sort of the kind
of person who wants to make every 
454
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,960
single decision about how their 
data is sold, don't sell your data.
455
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,800
Because you want someone, most people are like, 
456
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,800
I just want you as a body
to do this for me. Good news.
457
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,160
The EU scheme is based on this fiduciary model.
458
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,720
So it says, if you are a data cooperative, you 
have to have a legal duty of care to your members.
459
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,680
And that's where the safeguards come in.
460
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,200
Once you have that, then they 
have to work for their members, 
461
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,360
in this way and they can't just disregard them.
462
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,800
That also brings me to this, the second 
point, but we'll build in these preferences, 
463
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,880
so you'll be able to at some point, 
we're not quite there yet with the stack,
464
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,680
but at some point you'll be able to say,
I only want to sell to charities.
465
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,480
I only want to sell to charities 
and university researchers.
466
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,800
I'm happy to sell to everyone, right?
467
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,480
And you'll just be in a different bucket of data 
468
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,720
and only those buckets will be able
to be bought by certain types of buyers.
469
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,640
It's actually pretty easy, but we'll get there.
470
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,400
The second question  
471
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,560
was, I think follows on from that fiduciary 
stuff, which is can you be bought out?
472
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,200
Like what's the point of building
all of this stuff if one day Google says,  
473
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,320
I will just buy you all out.
474
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:12,000
That is a problem.
475
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,960
Obviously that haunts a lot of 
people, but certainly it haunted me 
476
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,800
and I would love to see,
you can't force data operators,
477
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,720
these people who come along as 
entrepreneurs to be cooperatives, 
478
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,600
but I would like a federation of cooperatives.
479
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,040
That would be really cool.
480
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,240
But if that doesn't work, then the 
fiduciary aspect, that thing of that 
481
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,440
legal duty of care will
probably make it really easy for,
482
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,640
or really difficult for Google to purchase, right?
483
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,320
Because they'll have to be under the law, 
it'd have to be a separate legal entity.
484
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,320
They can't really talk and they 
have to work for the members, right?
485
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,400
And does Google really want to do that?
486
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,600
Yeah, we've got access, or
they could just buy it to shut it down 
487
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,400
and people kind of know that and that's possible.
488
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,000
The token model also helps, because
the whole point of tokens really is that you can 
489
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:09,920
disassociate equity and ownership of an 
underlying capital asset from utility and value.
490
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,120
And if you can do that, you can turn revenues to people 
491
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,360
and then not have to sell out your equity to anyone.
492
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,760
And that also helps with the cooperative stuff.
493
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,480
But it is difficult.
All of this stuff is stuff that we need to think about 
494
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,040
and I know why that keeps me, 
that's what keeps me up at night.
495
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,960
So it's a work in progress still.
496
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:27,680
Yeah.
497
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,200
It's a little bit of work in progress.
498
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,960
I think we'll get there and I mean 
there are other technological sides. 
499
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,080
I was just having a chat with one
of the original founders, Oren Macmillan.
500
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,840
I hope he doesn't mind me revealing 
this, yeah he won't, of the DAO, 
501
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,800
like The DAO, like the 2015 thing that went horribly wrong.
502
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,720
Was it 2016? He was saying, look, you know,
also there's these interesting technological  
503
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,800
things you can build in, right?
504
00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:01,920
So safeguards, where you have the
Data Union directing as a whole through 
505
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:07,280
preferences to one ENS address which is 
then the organization that sells the data.
506
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160
And then you could end up with 
a situation where the Data Union 
507
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,800
just decides to vote en masse 
to flick to another direct,
508
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,040
you know, another organization 
that actually sells the data.
509
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,640
So, you don't end up with this 
networking issue, where people go, 
510
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,440
we've been bought up by Google,
I guess I'll leave
511
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,880
and everyone tries to leave as 
individuals and it doesn't really work, 
512
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,520
but you just have one vote, 
everyone decides to leave
513
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,760
and the whole thing is
directed to something else.
514
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,880
So nothing has to change, no one has
to do anything, except for pressing one button.
515
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,240
That's nice. I like that.
516
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:45,040
Yeah, I do believe data DAOs are going to be, 
I don't know if, huge, but they're essential.
517
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,320
It seems like it's one of the, like blockchainy 
pieces that definitely makes sense to me.
518
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,840
And on that topic, I was wondering 
if you've ever asked yourself, 
519
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,000
now being involved in the blockchain 
space, like, why blockchain
520
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,000
and data, like, why does it even make sense?
521
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,760
It doesn't and so we don't do it.
522
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,520
Okay. Great.
523
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,040
Where it makes sense is just for the payments.
524
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:17,520
Don't put data on the blockchain, it's just like 
the worst way to structure data architecture.
525
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,600
Like, why do you want to put 
it on thousands of databases, 
526
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,000
when even one is already difficult enough?
527
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,000
It's basically the short version.
528
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:27,600
Yeah, of course.
529
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,840
Like putting data itself on at least 
like current generation blockchains 
530
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,960
doesn't make sense.
There's like, IPFS, Filecoin, Arweave,
531
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,160
that they're viable solutions 
for decentralized storage, 
532
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,560
but there's payments, there's 
governance, there's the marketplace side.
533
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:49,520
So you use blockchain for what it's good at, 
which is all the things you've just listed.
534
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,840
So, the payment, so, I mean,
I have been asked this question before,  
535
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,920
why don't you do this with Fiat, right?
536
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,560
And the answer is really simple.
537
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,520
Your bank, your business, if you've 
ever done business banking before, 
538
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,920
they charge you for transactions, 20 cents.
539
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,880
That's how they make the money.
540
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800
And imagine now trying to pay 
a million people 25 cents.
541
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,800
And then getting charged 20 cents for each 
transaction, so that isn't going to work.
542
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,600
You can't do micro payments to 
the Fiat system and you can barely 
543
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,920
do it with Ethereum, in fact
you can't do it with Ethereum now.
544
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,120
So, even then, you still struggle.
545
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,720
So, you know, Streamr is now using Matic.
546
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,960
Oh sorry, xDAI at the back end 
and Matic was in consideration, 
547
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,600
but, you know, bridging and stuff 
like that, some technicalities there.
548
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:41,040
But, yeah, so, we're using xDAI 
as a side chain for all of this.
549
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:47,120
And for payment, can people use stable coins,
or like, coins that are pegged to USD?
550
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Yeah, they can and in effect you can 
architect this in any way that you want, 
551
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,480
which is that you could pay
all of these people in stablecoin
552
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:02,800
and that might make sense for
a lot of people, but early adopters seem 
553
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,960
to like the fact that it's crypto, they're 
getting a token that can go up and down in value.
554
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:07,840
Interesting.
555
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,400
It makes the ride a bit more exciting for them 
and in a bull run obviously, that's great.
556
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,240
Less so in crypto winter.
557
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,280
It's kind of like, if…
558
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:15,840
Warning!
559
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,200
If you were an advertiser back in like 2005
and you got paid in Google stock,  
560
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,560
that would be quite interesting.
561
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,760
It would be. And I know people 
who have been paid in Apple stock.
562
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:28,400
Really?
563
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,520
From the 80s, yeah.
564
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,240
No shit.
565
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:36,000
And apparently still have it, I don't understand 
because I still picked up the tab for dinner.
566
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:39,520
God.
567
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,320
That's how, that's, I think
how rich people stay rich, right?
568
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:43,760
Yeah, exactly.
569
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:49,760
And, another, I mean, we briefly 
talked about this, but another use case 
570
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,560
for blockchain and data would be 
decentralized governance of Data Unions
571
00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:01,280
and data itself and It does
seem to make sense on the surface, 
572
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,760
but like, if you have
actually observed how DAOs work,
573
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,200
or don't work in the Ethereum space, 
most people don't give a fuck, 
574
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,280
like, they don't really care to 
vote on a thousand random things
575
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,440
and that's even like for money, like, 
where they have real skin in the game, 
576
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,640
like tens of thousands of dollars, 
they don't vote, they don't have time.
577
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:28,160
So it would be crazy to expect millions of people 
to vote on millions of decisions for their data.
578
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,360
So then, the Data Union 
starts to really make sense.
579
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:43,840
Yeah, right, I think you'll never
have pure DAOs and that's difficult to say 
580
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,560
because you're like, I don't want 
to say it, but I think that's true.
581
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,880
I think you always need and it's not,
it's a really fascinating, 
582
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,080
like again, if you look at the kind 
of economic history of capitalism,
583
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,800
it's a really fascinating moment. 
It wasn't obvious that you could 
584
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,040
actually give control of 
your assets to someone else.
585
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,200
And then also, they wouldn't be
fully liable for that and nor would you.
586
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:11,200
So you have limited liability
but an executor of someone who can 
587
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,960
carry out their control and 
you can give permission to.
588
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,960
So this is like a fascinating construct, 
it's not actually that it's pretty new, 
589
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,160
innovation, four or five 
hundred years old kind of thing,
590
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,320
or even less by other measurements.
591
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,480
So I like the DAO and actually 
that's what's being kicked 
592
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,720
around at the moment, if you want to know the 
kind of inside baseball stuff on the legislation.
593
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:40,480
It's like who, can you have 
delegated authority and how far does 
594
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,040
that go for Data Union members 
and how much does that need
595
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,320
to be written into the legislation.
596
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,680
Yeah, because as soon as 
you delegate, because it's 
597
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,720
on-chain, you could easily 
trade that to delegation.
598
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:53,220
Yeah.
599
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,400
It can be tokenized, you could literally 
have NFTs that if you hold the NFT, 
600
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,840
you have a, governance rights over
a certain Data Union or just dataset.
601
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,920
You know, actually, I didn't 
even think about that properly.
602
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,320
What if you start tokenizing
the delegated rights?
603
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,600
The delegated rights that they're 
talking about are obviously 
604
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,080
off chain, so the kind of
Web2 legal structures.
605
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,280
Could also be on-chain, like, if you 
use Arweave and things like that.
606
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:29,840
Yeah you're right.
That becomes a nightmare, it's great.
607
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,480
And what's interesting is you could
have limited editions of those access tokens 
608
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:42,880
and you could even have a bonding curve for 
like, the first token gets 10 days first,
609
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,160
like access to data and then 
the second token gets it after 
610
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,520
10 days and the third one gets it
after months and then the value goes down.
611
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,280
Yeah and, I mean, sort of know 
the Colony guys and one of their 
612
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,720
great innovations in ideas, they haven't
quite put it into practice yet,
613
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:02,560
it was a kind of, rights that decay over time.
614
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:03,060
Yeah.
615
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,720
And I was like, yes, that's it.
616
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:05,840
That's the secret sauce.
617
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,960
But I think they're coming out soon 
with their second more viable version 
618
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,000
and I hope that the decaying rights 
isn't there, because that's an idea
619
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,360
that everyone needs to copy.
620
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:23,120
But you're right, you know, it's so, I think the 
inherent part is the thing that you said earlier.
621
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,520
People want convenience, right?
622
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,240
Yes, they want value and they
want to get paid, but they also want 
623
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:31,760
convenience and they don't want us to take up 
their, I don't want it to take up people's lives.
624
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,800
Because otherwise that's just, failed. 
If I have to keep coming back to you 
625
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,400
every six minutes with a question that you 
have to answer, that's never going to work.
626
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,640
So, you know, at most once a month.
627
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,960
The only thing you want to 
see is the number go up.
628
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,560
You want to see on your app that,
oh, today I have two cents 
629
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,880
or like, two dollars more without doing any work.
630
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:56,800
Yeah, right.
631
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,240
And there's some innovations there, 
which, you know, you get two dollars 
632
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:04,000
from one Data Union, but, you know, 
join five and suddenly it's ten dollars.
633
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,080
And things get kind of more interesting within 
building up those assets of passive income.
634
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,240
Maybe that starts to unlock other 
micro economies, because you're 
635
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,600
now giving lots of ordinary people, 
who don't have to do anything,
636
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,280
who don't have to go and buy crypto to start
with, you’re just giving it to them, 
637
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,360
because they're already doing work that is valuable.
638
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,120
And they've got, now you've opened up
the crypto economy to potentially hundreds 
639
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,800
and hundreds of millions of other people, 
who can maybe trade, but more interestingly,
640
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,760
again, like, you know, what's the thing that 
you can solve with micropayments, right?
641
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:45,920
And this comes back to me being a journalist 
again, I'm like, paying for articles finally.
642
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,600
I don't want to subscribe to 15
different newspapers, but I do want to read 
643
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,569
articles from 15 different outlets....
644
00:37:51,569 --> 00:37:52,470
Great!
645
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:56,720
regularly. But I only want to
pay like, eight cents each.
646
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,720
I've got some crypto on my computer, 
it's just there in my MetaMask wallet, 
647
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,440
from the several Data Unions I've joined. Now you 
can see this wonderful circular economy, right?
648
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,480
Yeah. Suddenly everything makes sense.
649
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,155
Great, sold.
650
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:14,080
Okay.
651
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,200
But why is media actually not adopting that model?
652
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,800
What's really stopping them?
653
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:20,640
Like, the micropayments?
654
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,320
It's like you've been there
and I'm sure this is the idea you've 
655
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,240
proposed within the community 
also, so, what do you hear?
656
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:35,520
So, micropayments, I remember in 2010 were 
like going to be the great savior of media.
657
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,880
There have been a few ideas, 
you sit in a newsroom, 
658
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,720
you know, your job depends on,
like the business model working, right?
659
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,120
And especially if you're
an investigative journalist, 
660
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,400
because it’s the most expensive 
operation in the newsroom, usually.
661
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,720
So, you know, it was video at one 
point, video is the great savior, 
662
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:57,360
that turned out not to be true, but yeah, 
and there'd be other emanations but,
663
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,400
and now it's just like, 
Facebook will pay us or Google.
664
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,840
You know, that's a terrible,
this is not a business model at all.
665
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,680
And then subscribers have 
in fact worked to an extent.
666
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,960
But micropayments are the most beautiful 
solution and the reason why it's, 
667
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,200
just technologically, one really difficult 
to implement, so you have to use crypto
668
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,480
and crypto has only just got, 
literally within the last, I think, 
669
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,000
6 months to the point of maturity, where it 
could handle that kind of thing with side chains.
670
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:25,440
That's the first thing.
671
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,200
And you'd have to like, encrypt 
the content and decrypt it, right?
672
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,720
So that's the kind of thing you'd have to do,
which is sort of what they do anyway.
673
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:34,960
They kind of just block it out
and like, if you want to read more,  
674
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,880
you have to do these other things.
675
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,520
So, I think we're there and the second 
bit is also just, you need a third party 
676
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,000
to be able to come and get, galvanize, 
groups of people who really don't like
677
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,800
cooperating all that much with each other, 
because they're natural competitors.
678
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:58,640
And I think, and the third bit is that,
how do you then get all these, 
679
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,400
the same crypto token to all these 
different other people, without a,
680
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,080
you know, that's really hard and, 
so this is a way of doing that.
681
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,960
You're like, these people already do work,
so we can pay them the value 
682
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,760
for that thing and then they can use that, 
if they want, to unlock value somewhere else.
683
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,440
That's just how economies work.
684
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,440
And maybe that goes to your 
other question that you asked 
685
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,280
at the beginning as well, like, what are the
other ideas that this starts to unlock?
686
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:30,480
Well, there's these huge parts of
our lives that, for good or for worse, 
687
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,800
but usually for worse, because 
they disempower people,
688
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,160
aren't counted as economic activities.
689
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,840
Because no one actually has a way of 
either paying people, or counting it.
690
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:45,360
So the typical example is usually
all of domestic work, it's not counted, 
691
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,680
in economic terms, because no one's 
paying, vastly, generally speaking,
692
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,000
women, to do any of this stuff.
693
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,480
And so it's also disregarded 
and counted as second class.
694
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,120
Well this is another aspect of 
that, with the Data Economy.
695
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:06,080
And suddenly, once you start to unlock 
that stuff, then you start to see 
696
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,040
vast improvements and vast empowerment 
of all sorts of sectors of society
697
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,400
that were just ignored before.
698
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,360
Yeah, agreed.
699
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,880
I do really feel like data could 
be the gateway drug for crypto, 
700
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:25,200
or empowering the next billions
of people to start monetizing everything,
701
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,960
like with the recent NFT
wave in the crypto space, 
702
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:36,000
we saw now there's a whole kind
of silent economy of digital artists
703
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,240
who couldn't capture any value and 
now they're doing it and who knows, 
704
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:44,400
maybe in, like, two or three 
years, the next crypto summer,
705
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,320
winter, it will be all
about data and Data Unions.
706
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,400
I mean, I really hope so.
707
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,440
I know we're running out of time, but 
maybe just to say one last thing on that, 
708
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,400
which is, you know, what has Web3 done to date?
709
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,240
You've got money, digital
money, that's Bitcoin.
710
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:06,800
Got contracts, really
important, in, with Ethereum 
711
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,080
and we've got a way to trade 
and financialize all of that.
712
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,360
That's DEXs. What do NFTs 
represent in that schema?
713
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,560
Assets. Well, what are
some other great assets?
714
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040
Well, it's really hard to take a 
house and put that on the blockchain, 
715
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:28,160
it's really, really hard to do that.
But data is worth trillions
716
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,360
and it's already digitally native,
but it is stuck in Web2.
717
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,960
And it's begging for scarcity.
718
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:33,360
Right.
719
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,240
That’s the biggest problem with
data, it wants to be free,  
720
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:38,640
but it also wants to be scarce at the same time.
721
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,360
Yeah, there's a huge tension on that basis.
722
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:49,120
So, Data Unions are a way of
porting all of that Web2 value into Web3  
723
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,640
and assetizing it.
I see what Ocean has been doing.
724
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,720
It's like, so I think great supporters 
of Data Unions, because they're like 
725
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,960
please bring it in and to our 
marketplace obviously and trade it.
726
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,120
Turn it into tradable assets and 
financialize it to your heart's content.
727
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,040
So it's a fascinating model.
728
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,040
All fingers crossed.
729
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,040
Yeah, indeed.
730
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,840
I should, you know, one last thing to mention.
731
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:22,000
I didn't mention Tapmydata, who also, 
they're not building on Streamr as such, 
732
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,760
but there are other Data Unions that are out there,
733
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,280
that aren't part of the Streamr ecosystem 
and I think that really just proves, 
734
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:35,280
like GeoDB, another one, Tapmydata, 
which they're all doing brilliant work