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Dustin Lacewell
selpa'i AKA Lorenzo Von Matterhorn has just been nominated in the #lojban channel
as standing BDFL with a current approval of 8/8 votes thus far. If this is an
important matter to you, which I'm sure it is, please join us in the IRC channel
to convey your approval or disapproval with this motion. Thanks!
EDIT:
The current total is 21 to 1 in support for selpahi as new acting warden for the
language. Below is the list including words from rlpowell:
https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/056ee248abec6e32b07c
----------------
J Camaron Rogers
I don'[t know what a BDFL is, so...
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
Benevolent Dictator For Life. A both practical and
sentimental role to give lojban a voice and also a pragmatic authority for
establishing changes to the language. The position that Robin Lee Powell
currently holds in sentiment only.
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
Please come to IRC if you have any additional questions or
concerns or flagrant happiness.
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J Camaron Rogers
I don't really do IRC, but you can let them know that {la
kronaz} casts a vote in the affirmative.
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Dustin Lacewell
Thank you, that currently makes 10 active jbopre in favor.
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Dustin Lacewell
Please if you are reading this and you have not responded on
IRC or here please voice your opinion either way. Silence will be a burden in
all respects. Thanks.
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Keresth D'Araciel
Is there a particular time-frame and who's arbitrating?
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Philip Yu
This is a joke, right? I honestly don't feel comfortable about
*anyone* officially having complete 100% control of the project.
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Alex Burka
It's not a joke. Of course nobody is ever going to have 100%
control. But it is useful to have a leader.
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Djunias Cmaluprenu
Agreed. Selpa'i for jboturni!
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Sean Inman
Maybe now I can come back to IRC. I fully support selpa'i on this.
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
To reiterate what Alex said, we're not trying to put full
control of the language into selpahi's hands. Rather selpahi would represent
an active figurehead and mechanism through which proposals for the language
can make their way to some sort of final-word and integration into the
language. Forgive me for using a software development analogy, but selpahi
would essentially be the repository maintainer with the ability to merge pull
requests.
Without anyone at the top with the ability to say, "OK after the discussions
that have taken place surrounding Such And Such being so positive, we'll
formally adopt it." it doesn't matter how ingenious your connective reform
is, or just how many people utilize an 'unofficial' place structure
definition - there's just no mechanism for change.
With Djunias and Sean I believe that makes 16 active jbopre For the
'motion'. Philip Yu can you make more explicit your disapproval of the motion
by saying something like 'nay' or similiar? (just so I'm not accused of
"interpreting" your reply, later
----------------
Philip Yu
I cannot say for certain, as at this time I do not believe I know
selpa'i well enough, nor am I at all experienced in this language yet to feel
compelled to participate in this action any more than merely spectate. I
cannot say I know enough to make an informed opinion or decision.
----------------
Alex Richmond
Have there been any dissenting opinions? Not reservations, but
actual "no" votes?
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
As we just learned on IRC Gleki is the first nay.
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Curtis W. Fraŋks
At this time, nay. It is nothing against the candidate, I
would just like a formal written set of provisions explictly specifying the
role and purpose, powers and restrictions, checks and balances, protocols for
various occasions, etc. first. Also, I think that I would prefer some sort of
oligarchic council the members of which are democratically elected for some
finite specified term during good behaviour and service. Lojban is presently
small enough to work by purely direct democratic means, by the way; we would
just need to have some rules. Do we have quorum of (and preferably the
sanction of certain) members of the community in order to do so? This vote
seemed to arise unexpectedly and abruptly. I would have liked more notice and
other rules specified for it too. It just seems to be in bad faith to
me. But, perhaps, I am just a Muggle.
----------------
Alex Richmond
I suggested this in the IRC and I'll post it here:
The best way to do the voting procedures would be entirely in Lojban. The
number of new members that come and go through the Lojban groups (here on
Facebook, the Google groups, IRC, and whatever else there may be) shouldn't
be the deciding votes. Anyone who is able to read Lojban beyond a most basic
"mi [brivla] ti do" has already put in a decent amount of time into learning
the language.
----------------
Philip Yu
I agree with Alex, considering how I am one of "them".
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Alex Richmond
Can we set up a roll call system so that we know exactly how
many active people there are in the Lojban community at the moment?
----------------
Alex Richmond
Don't worry Phillip, I still consider myself one of "them" too
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Dustin Lacewell
Curtis W. Fraŋks I totally agree that the process for
proposals and their adoption be something we think through. There is a
problem with your general response I think, and that's that for the last 10
years no such oligarchical council of formalized and balanced power of
integration has ever formed. What you describe is an enormous amount of work
and has never been achieved. What has been achieved is lots of dialog and
usage and creativity with regards to lojban itself. Sometimes in a focused
manner like selpahi has demonstrated so well, and often in a shared form. The
problem is that even despite an already democratized and shared process there
is no way to proliferate and *prescribe* extensions, revisions, or whatever
mutations to the language that is engineered.
All this would do is give *someone* who is demonstrably dedicated and
passionate about lojban to an extent that no one else actually demonstrates
the final say on integration. That's completely different than revisions can
only come from selpahi. I hope you can make the distinction for yourself and
realize that nothing about this removes the existing vectors for creativity
in the language. It simply facilitates a practical result for that effort.
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
By the way, I have updated the count at the original post of
this thread including comments from Robin and others.
----------------
Gleki Arxokuna
Here is what needs to be done for Lojban to make it workable:
http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=La_Bangu:_The_Journey
This plan is for La Bangu dialect but for Standard Lojban (which is mostly the same as La Bangu) the plan would be very similar.
La Bangu: The Journey - le uitki
mw.lojban.org
Somewhat an superfluous to 1. However, most people usually prefer to change from one textbook to another. That's why we provide this alternative.
----------------
Dank Menkei
mi tugni la aleks e la kurtis .i ta'o mi zanru tu'a la selpa'i .i
ku'i mi na zanru tu'a so'o lo sidbo be lo cnino gimste .i ta'onai mi jinvi lo
du'u xamgu fa lo nu denpa .i aicu'i
----------------
Gleki Arxokuna
mi na pante tu'a lo nu stidi i e'a stidi i ku'i na nibli lo
du'u so'e da zanru
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
mi jungau jenai jdice lo ni zanru
I think this can be a lot less tumultuous than it has to be. What this will
do is solve a very specific problem. That problem is when someone proposes
some change, and the change gets spread around, and you have these countless
discussions about this change and how it is good and we reformalize it over
and over and just keep talking about it as some thing, that is never really
realized because none of us has the authority to stand up and say "oh for
crying out loud already, dudes from here on, everyone just USE it and not
feel guilty that you're learning some non-standard lojban. Hence forth it IS
standard lojban!"
That guy is going to be selphai, because selpahi spends most of his waking
hours thinking and breathing lojban. Not only has he been emitting
high-quality literary translations, maintaining an active lojban blog,
teaching formal lojban lessons, he also manages to come up with really really
thought-out refinements in both grammar and vocabulary. I want to type, "His
command of the language is top-tier" but its not even that. His command of
the nuance of the language, its qualities and its faults and the way he can
see parellels from one part of the language to the other.
This is exactly the kind of guy that *should* be settling our disputes at the
end of the day. The disputes and agreements that we already have will have a
venue to find their way to actually have an effect on the thing we're so
passionate to have disputes and agreements on in the first place.
----------------
Alex Richmond
I read that as "wanking hours". Made for an even more
compelling argument. I think I need some sleep lol
----------------
Philip Yu
Well, my parents vote for CEOs of companies they own a handful of
stocks from without knowing jack about them, so, considering the voices above
and assuming they are all true, should I still have the ability to decide on
yes-or-no for selpa'i, I would choose yes.
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
Updating the count
Btw, just to touch on the whole "Lets create government-level bureaucratic
democracy to manage lojban with speakers who are only versed in the language"
thing. I think this is slightly moot since only speakers very versed in the
language are coming up with and discussing proposals anyway. Besides you
think you're good at the language, the dude can effing _rap_ in lojban!
haha, can you say jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru on beat like the Beloved?
/zo'o
----------------
Alex Richmond
I've listened to both of his songs several times, and I
actually proposed that he start a crowdfund for an EP lol
----------------
Philip Yu
Shouldn't there be a deadline to when voting ends?
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Dustin Lacewell
Who would enforce the deadline. We're polling as many people
as we can grab the attention of and if no mass of amount of people strongly
disagree then we can start implementing stuff. Its that easy. I can say that
we highly highly intend to 'open source' lojban far more than it is right
now. Not just tools surrounding lojban but lojban itself. We want to make the
discussions around proposals and all of that much more visible. The software
project management was real analogy. We want the specification of the
language and its lexicon to be version controlled so that integration is an
explicit process and its history can be enjoyed by everyone. Of course these
are just ideas and who knows if it will work but its been a pretty favorable
idea so far.
----------------
Curtis W. Fraŋks Dustin Lacewell, I am aware of the histouric difficulties
and of the distinction. I just figured that, if this movement were happening,
that might mean that effort could more generally be put into it.
If there are rules involved or if the office in question is officially named
and described, I might reconsider. Heck, I am reconsidering as it is. And if
there were to be some small council, I probably would happily vote for
him. But, as it is, this ballot just does not sit well with me (again, not
for personal reasons).
What about quorum?
----------------
Curtis W. Fraŋks But if, as you say, there is no big push for governing in a
more active manner by bureaucracy, then with rules, I would like to sleep on
it. Keep my vote as it was for now, but I may ask tomorrow to change it.
----------------
Curtis W. Fraŋks (It does seem to me that there are a few Lojbanists out
there who would be happy to participate or take up some degree of duty with
regard to community decision-making, not just selpa'i. When is the last time
that we have asked around and had a concerted effort to provide such
organization?
If his proposed office were to simply to organize how we would go about
organizing such a system, the proposal of which could include expanded powers
for his office but also which would be subjected to community discussion and
vote, I would be very happy.)
----------------
Alex Richmond
That was my idea behind a roll call. We find out who wants to
actively participate in the discussions and vote on them, and we make the
quorum 2/3 of the group, or something of that nature. That number could
fluctuate from month to month, but probably not by much
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
The thing is, if your good faith in your fellow lojbanist was
actualized, it would be manifest by those people being already driven to
participate in such a direct democracy. Even yourselves this applies to. The
reality is that you are still free to directly involve yourself in the
creation and maintaince of lojban - but with the result of this motion the
most qualified among us will truly have the final say.
By the way Broca of the BPFK has given his provisional approval of selpahi as
acting warden. Updating count.
----------------
Ali Sajid Imami
I have known selpahi for a while. he is extremely dedicated
and obviously the correct choice. I vote yea
----------------
Curtis W. Fraŋks At the end of the day, Lojban belongs to everyone. So, if
the term limit were exceeded, we need only ignore the decisions made
thereäfter. We would merely descend into anarchy similar to that of the
present, which is workable (even if annoying), therefore moderately
acceptable. "Consent of the governed" and all that jazz.
I agree that we need an operating mechanism by which to make proposed changes
official. I am not comfortable with this proposed solution on principle (not
because of choice of candidate: I recognize that he is a wonderful member of
the community, contributor to Lojban, and indeed probably worthy of the
proposed office).
Again, just let me think on it a bit more. I recognize his virtues and our need.
----------------
Curtis W. Fraŋks I also have great faith in him and our community. No-one is
out to purposefully ruin Lojban.
----------------
Alex Richmond
I might add that when I read selpahi's idea for reforming the
Lojban connectives, I was hoping that it might actually happen someday.
http://selpahi.weebly.com/.../how-to-substantially...
How to substantially simplify the Lojban connective system — My connective system
selpahi.weebly.com
"How does one say "and" in Lojban?" " Well... it depends, you know. For sumti, i... See More
----------------
Curtis W. Fraŋks
All that having been said, I would gladly take the system
and candidate of the original post out for a semi-official test drive (so to
speak) for some amount of time, as determined by some formal set of
ordinances; at the end we can judge the job based not on the proposed changes
to the grammar (which presumably will have been discussed in detail and
already divided the community into camps), but based on the efficiency of the
system, how well the snags were worked out, and how well the decisions were
handled/given the stamp of approval by the candidate in accord with the
community consensus.
----------------
Joanna Kurki
For me it's too early to vote.. I'm definitely too noob to even
know people, not I have ever used lojban-irc.
----------------
Ali Sajid Imami
Guys, is this going to descend into a civil war now? because
that would be highly undesirable. As one of the working Board members of LLG
it would pain me highly if schisms happened and things got ugly. >.>
----------------
Alex Burka
So far it doesn't look like a civil war to me.
----------------
J Camaron Rogers
I'll vote for whomever promises to move future votes to
something a little less antiquated than IRC and mailing lists... just sayin
----------------
Lorenzo Von Matterhorn
To those who are sceptical of the idea of having a
BDFL in the first place: We have had one for the last 10 years. I think that
should be made clear.
----------------
J Camaron Rogers
Perhaps the title should be changed to avoid the stigma that
"dictator" carries, despite its mildly humorous use.
----------------
Lorenzo Von Matterhorn
How about Chief, or The Dude zo'o.
----------------
Gleki Arxokuna
.onai zo'o la ralju badna
----------------
Gunnar Yngman
I'll second this motion.
----------------
Riley Martinez-Lynch
Lojban needs engaged leadership and few people have the
combination of acumen, accomplishment and enthusiasm that selpa'i brings to
the table. That said, any earnest proposal to reform lojban's governance
should not limit the discussion to those who use Facebook and IRC, and should
take a clear stand with regard to the mechanisms of governance currently in
place -- however dysfunctional they may be.
I'd also like to see a discussion of the alternatives to investing
categorical authority in a single individual. An autocrat is a single point
of failure, and even the wisest monarchs have failed to solve the problem of
succession.
And the discussion should include the responsibilities that accompany any
award of authority: "With great power comes great responsibility." For all of
the authority invested in BPFK, its recommendations were never formally
implemented. Accountability appears to have been more of an issue than
authority. If that is true, "lifetime" appointments seem especially
ill-advised.
I applaud the initiative to rescue lojban from its derelict state, and to
harness the expertise and energy of selpa'i to this end. I hope my comments
here are understood as an opinion of what might be done to maximize the
chances that this effort will succeed in preserving and reinvigorating this
remarkable language.
----------------
James Constable
mi sanji je zanru loi selgu'a .i'esai.i'o be la selpa'i
.iku'i mi ji'a jinvi lodu'u lo se faurtei be lonu mi jikca lo lojbo cecmu cu
norbanzu loka mi kakne loka racli jdice .i.a'odai loli'i jdice pruce .e lo
bamo'u teryru'e roda pluka
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
Yeah, you and Curtis are not wrong in any idealistic sense in
the way you couch your approval with senses of formalized procedures and
hearings and so on. The plain white-paste reality is that there is only a
single person who has actually stood up to bear this responsibility. The "For
Life" part of BDFL is just sentimental that the authority isn't
whimsical. That to be of practical value, he _really does_ have the power of
dispute resolution and point-event integration of changes.
I think a large aspect of this decision is to give us a mechanism through
which we can take our ideas of more formalized discussion and open tracking
of lojban the language as data a voice. The worry that selpahi is going to
somehow rule with an Iron fist is irrational. The process by which lojban
changes is already natural and collaborative. It simply has no method by
which those changes can find their way into those sacred halls of official
purview. We don't need to go and draft volumes of procedure that will never
be followed anyway. Lojban's community is all ready cooperative in their
creativity. Simply now, all of that effort wont be wasted.
Again I just want to reiterate, that the procedures for change integration
are going to become FAR more explicit. But those changes in procedure are far
more facilitated by this decision/vote than a prerequisite for it.
----------------
Dustin Lacewell
Riley Martinez-Lynch can I put you down in the yea or nay
columns?
----------------
Alex Burka
doi la'oi .James Constable. .i pe'i lo do crelai befi tu'a lo
jbobau cu ja'a banzu lo nu do se cmicu'akrali vau vau pei
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