Subject: PRIVATE: checking in

msg01.txt

Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:01:03 -0500
From: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
To: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
Subject: PRIVATE: checking in

Hi, Peter.

Now that one traumatic choice between stability vs change is behind me, I'd
like to turn my energy from the US election to DBIC. <rimshot />

Where are you in putting together your thoughts?  The community seems ready
to make a choice, once one is presented and I'd really rather that choice
be something you've written rather than a list member's much vaguer
proposal for how they think you should run things (and written without your
prior input).

If drafting something personally is difficult, perhaps finding a proxy from
the list to write for you would help.  I'm also willing to help formalize
your thoughts into a "governance" proposal if you'd rather it be me.

(It sent this privately, but if you'd like I can also repost it to the
mailing list.)

David

msg02.txt

Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 17:54:10 +0100
From: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
To: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On 11/10/2016 05:01 PM, David Golden wrote:
> Hi, Peter.
>
> Now that one traumatic choice between stability vs change is behind me,
> I'd like to turn my energy from the US election to DBIC. <rimshot />
>
> Where are you in putting together your thoughts?  The community seems
> ready to make a choice, once one is presented and I'd really rather that
> choice be something you've written rather than a list member's much
> vaguer proposal for how they think you should run things (and written
> without your prior input).
>
> If drafting something personally is difficult, perhaps finding a proxy
> from the list to write for you would help.  I'm also willing to help
> formalize your thoughts into a "governance" proposal if you'd rather it
> be me.
>
> (It sent this privately, but if you'd like I can also repost it to the
> mailing list.)
>

Last day of a busy on-site visit, won't be dealing with anything this week.

I'll have things in place for the ML to munch on by ~Wed next week.

I appreciate the offer to help, but at the same time you can't really 
help with any of this: what I actually want to do is very far removed 
from where you believe things should be moving to. TLDR: I am doubling 
down on "this is a split - let's make it final, so we never have to do 
this again".

Stay tuned.

msg03.txt

Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:27:18 -0500
From: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
To: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

Great, thanks for the update.  Sounds like a good concept for a proposal.
Final would be good.

David

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us> wrote:

> On 11/10/2016 05:01 PM, David Golden wrote:
>
>> Hi, Peter.
>>
>> Now that one traumatic choice between stability vs change is behind me,
>> I'd like to turn my energy from the US election to DBIC. <rimshot />
>>
>> Where are you in putting together your thoughts?  The community seems
>> ready to make a choice, once one is presented and I'd really rather that
>> choice be something you've written rather than a list member's much
>> vaguer proposal for how they think you should run things (and written
>> without your prior input).
>>
>> If drafting something personally is difficult, perhaps finding a proxy
>> from the list to write for you would help.  I'm also willing to help
>> formalize your thoughts into a "governance" proposal if you'd rather it
>> be me.
>>
>> (It sent this privately, but if you'd like I can also repost it to the
>> mailing list.)
>>
>>
> Last day of a busy on-site visit, won't be dealing with anything this week.
>
> I'll have things in place for the ML to munch on by ~Wed next week.
>
> I appreciate the offer to help, but at the same time you can't really help
> with any of this: what I actually want to do is very far removed from where
> you believe things should be moving to. TLDR: I am doubling down on "this
> is a split - let's make it final, so we never have to do this again".
>
> Stay tuned.
>
>

-- 
David Golden <xdg@xdg.me> Twitter/IRC/GitHub: @xdg

msg04.txt

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:39:40 +0100
From: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
To: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On 11/10/2016 05:54 PM, Peter Rabbitson wrote:
>
> I'll have things in place for the ML to munch on by ~Wed next week.
>

The above is still the plan, despite Matt's most recent... thing, which 
I will *also* have to intelligently respond to... sigh.

Worst case scenario will have to push things till thanksgiving-ish.

Stay tuned.

msg05.txt

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:42:39 -0500
From: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
To: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

If you feel you can do so, I encourage you to move the proposal forward and
defer discussion of allegations slightly.   If the proposal is out, then
people can react to it, ask clarifying questions, etc.

Since Matt is apparently asking me to referee the vote this time, I'm happy
to defer calling for a vote until you've had a chance to respond to
allegations.  But I'd at least like discussions of a proposal to get
started.

David

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us> wrote:

> On 11/10/2016 05:54 PM, Peter Rabbitson wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll have things in place for the ML to munch on by ~Wed next week.
>>
>>
> The above is still the plan, despite Matt's most recent... thing, which I
> will *also* have to intelligently respond to... sigh.
>
> Worst case scenario will have to push things till thanksgiving-ish.
>
> Stay tuned.
>
>


-- 
David Golden <xdg@xdg.me> Twitter/IRC/GitHub: @xdg

msg06.txt

Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:49:59 +0100
From: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
To: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On 11/14/2016 03:42 PM, David Golden wrote:
> If you feel you can do so, I encourage you to move the proposal forward
> and defer discussion of allegations slightly.   If the proposal is out,
> then people can react to it, ask clarifying questions, etc.
>
> Since Matt is apparently asking me to referee the vote this time, I'm
> happy to defer calling for a vote until you've had a chance to respond
> to allegations.  But I'd at least like discussions of a proposal to get
> started.
>

Both pieces will be published together, for reason that will become 
obvious after the fact.

In any case there will be little to no discussion, as the "proposal" 
(terrible word, but we'll go with that) will leave zero wiggle room.

Cheers

msg07.txt

Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 15:51:09 -0500
From: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
To: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

Hi, Peter.  Happy American Thanksgiving, slightly belated.  :-)

Do you think Dec 1 is likely?  Is there something I can do to help "harden"
the deadline for you?  I.e. you pledge some consequences if it slips?  (Owe
me a beer?  Donate money to a good cause? Have me call for a vote anyway?
etc.)

We've been at this for months and, as someone on the list said, the
uncertainty isn't really fair to the community.

Regards,
David


On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us> wrote:

> On 11/14/2016 03:42 PM, David Golden wrote:
>
>> If you feel you can do so, I encourage you to move the proposal forward
>> and defer discussion of allegations slightly.   If the proposal is out,
>> then people can react to it, ask clarifying questions, etc.
>>
>> Since Matt is apparently asking me to referee the vote this time, I'm
>> happy to defer calling for a vote until you've had a chance to respond
>> to allegations.  But I'd at least like discussions of a proposal to get
>> started.
>>
>>
> Both pieces will be published together, for reason that will become
> obvious after the fact.
>
> In any case there will be little to no discussion, as the "proposal"
> (terrible word, but we'll go with that) will leave zero wiggle room.
>
> Cheers
>
>


-- 
David Golden <xdg@xdg.me> Twitter/IRC/GitHub: @xdg

msg08.txt

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:52:31 +0100
From: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
To: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On 11/27/2016 09:51 PM, David Golden wrote:
> Hi, Peter.  Happy American Thanksgiving, slightly belated.  :-)
>
> Do you think Dec 1 is likely?  Is there something I can do to help
> "harden" the deadline for you?  I.e. you pledge some consequences if it
> slips?  (Owe me a beer?  Donate money to a good cause? Have me call for
> a vote anyway? etc.)

Please do not call for a vote, as there is still nothing to vote on. The 
proposal will be really simple (I have not polished it for wording - so 
please do not publish just that either):

 > Going forward there will be two forks developed in parallel, by
 > noncooperating, openly adversarial teams. This is no longer
 > avoidable, nor negotiable. The question for the community at this
 > point is "which one of the two forks do you want to keep within the
 > current namespace"

The reason I am taking so long is that I need to make the *motivations* 
for the above clear, by essentially calling bullshit on essentially 
every single point that Matt/Mithaldu brought up.

End of Dec 1st still seems likely, and I am really pushing for this, so 
that the "new team" can congregate and discuss at LPW this weekend.

So please stand down until Fri.

>
> We've been at this for months and, as someone on the list said, the
> uncertainty isn't really fair to the community.
>

You mean like that? https://youtu.be/TI9vCvkVH2U?t=58

Cheers

msg09.txt

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 16:32:33 -0500
Delivered-To: david@autopragmatic.com
Message-ID: <CAOeq1c9R3ZU4S223vn7S5o4C386hcwKFd6zH9ccdW=NX1NmPhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in
From: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
To: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c14efda5d4f9f05428b71ab

> > Going forward there will be two forks developed in parallel, by
> > noncooperating, openly adversarial teams. This is no longer
> > avoidable, nor negotiable. The question for the community at this
> > point is "which one of the two forks do you want to keep within the
> > current namespace"
>
>
Going back to our "responsible forking" discussions, please make sure to
address the ecosystem and community resources as well as the namespace.
That includes git repos, the mailing list, etc.

I want there to be a clear and unambiguous choice to put to the list.  I.e.

> [...we are forking...].  The choice is:
>
> (a) DBIC name and the associated community will be governed by mst's
>     governance document; riba will set up a new namespace and community
>     governed by riba [as BDFL] and invite people to join.
>
> (b) DBIC name and the associated community will be governed by riba [as
>     BDFL]; mst will set up a new namespace and community under the
>     governance document provided and invite people to join.

I don't know what governance model you intend, so change "as BDFL" to
whatever you want, or even "to be determined later" as that is largely
immaterial to the choice itself (though that detail may change how people
feel about the options).

> So please stand down until Fri.
>

I will stand down until Saturday, 00:00:00 UTC (i.e. my Friday night).

If you haven't made a concrete proposal by Friday evening (NYC time), I
intend to post something not unlike the example choice I laid out above --
along with copies of this email thread for public transparency -- and call
for a vote to bring this matter to a close.  Of course, you'd be welcome to
contribute your motivations and responses to allegations after the fact,
but I don't want the community's decision to defer any longer.

Regards,
David

--
David Golden <xdg@xdg.me> Twitter/IRC/GitHub: @xdg

msg10.txt

Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 23:57:04 +0100
From: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
To: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On 11/30/2016 10:32 PM, David Golden wrote:

>
> I will stand down until Saturday, 00:00:00 UTC (i.e. my Friday night).

I just got back to a place where I can actually do a recording. With 
just the recording and transcoding alone it will take at least 3 hours. 
I am intending to grab several hours of sleep and get everything over 
with around 10pm your time.

>
> If you haven't made a concrete proposal by Friday evening (NYC time), I
> intend to post something not unlike the example choice I laid out above
> – along with copies of this email thread for public transparency – and
> call for a vote to bring this matter to a close.  Of course, you'd be
> welcome to contribute your motivations and responses to allegations
> after the fact, but I don't want the community's decision to defer any
> longer.

There is no decision left to the community, we already went over this. 
The string of misunderstandings indicates you will almost certainly 
misrepresent my position if you force the issue before I published 
everything I intended.

Please don't make this messier than it already is. I will have the 
answers posted by tomorrow morning as intended.

msg11.txt

Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 06:53:35 +0100
From: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
To: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On 12/02/2016 11:57 PM, Peter Rabbitson wrote:
> On 11/30/2016 10:32 PM, David Golden wrote:
>
>>
>> I will stand down until Saturday, 00:00:00 UTC (i.e. my Friday night).
>
> I just got back to a place where I can actually do a recording. With
> just the recording and transcoding alone it will take at least 3 hours.
> I am intending to grab several hours of sleep and get everything over
> with around 10pm your time.
>

Watching the product of that... made me realize it won't help the 
question at present. So I am tabling the response until Matt gets his 
pacifier.

Now back to something more fun for me.

msg12.txt

Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 07:10:04 -0500
From: David Golden <xdg@xdg.me>
To: Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us>
Subject: Re: PRIVATE: checking in

On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Peter Rabbitson <rabbit@rabbit.us> wrote:

> Watching the product of that... made me realize it won't help the question
> at present. So I am tabling the response until Matt gets his pacifier.
>
>
Appreciated.

-- 
David Golden <xdg@xdg.me> Twitter/IRC/GitHub: @xdg