Discussion about what to call the Preview button on Quick Reply... yes it took that much discussion

gistfile1.weechatlog

[17:37:26] <nn-> imkingdavid: i am aware of that but i believe what i said remains true
[17:37:26] <igorw> nn-: please reply to event dispatcher PR
[17:37:34] <igorw> about PHPBB_NO_AUTOLOAD naming
[17:37:51] <nn-> do you have some issue with keeping both constants at top level?
[17:38:10] <nn-> i'm probably ok with renaming to no composer autoload
[17:39:09] --> unknownbliss1 (~unknownbl@phpbb/website/Unknown-Bliss) has joined #phpBB-dev
[17:39:09] *** Mode #phpBB-dev +o unknownbliss1 by ChanServ
[17:39:16] <imkingdavid> nn-: the first reason to hit the button is met by the second reason. So what is the issue with using the patch as is, or even with keeping the "Full Editor" text but making the button go to the preview page?
[17:39:39] <nn-> which reason is first again?
[17:39:58] <imkingdavid> first: getting to posting screen, second: preview what you have written, imo?
[17:40:04] <imkingdavid> that's what I understood from your post
[17:40:07] <imkingdavid> s/post/comment/
[17:40:25] <imkingdavid> by previewing you are taken to the full editor, therefore satisfying both needs at once
[17:40:48] <imkingdavid> currently, it only satisfies the first need, and the second requires yet another click
[17:40:52] <imkingdavid> i see no harm in doing both at once
[17:40:52] <nn-> if i want to see the preview why do i need the full editor?
[17:40:59] <imkingdavid> because that's where the preview is
[17:41:04] <nn-> yes but i don't care for that
[17:41:15] <nn-> i just want the preview
[17:41:30] <imkingdavid> so what do you propose... add the preview above quick reply when they click preview?
[17:41:42] <nn-> my proposal was to include both labels on the button
[17:41:50] <imkingdavid> i don't see the need to
[17:42:07] <nn-> and then i suppose you would have to display the preview which is not what currently happens
[17:42:21] <-- unknownbliss (~unknownbl@phpbb/website/Unknown-Bliss) has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[17:42:33] <imkingdavid> i think it is perfectly clear that preview also means full editor. That is what happens in other software, why would it be different here?
[17:42:43] <imkingdavid> including the preview above the QR on the posting page is just more clutter
[17:43:08] <imkingdavid> and might require some repeated code from psoting.php to parse it
[17:43:10] <imkingdavid> posting*
[17:43:41] <nn-> personally don't particularly care what the label is
[17:43:45] <nn-> i*
[17:43:50] <-> unknownbliss1 is now known as unknownbliss
[17:43:52] <nn-> however
[17:43:58] <nn-> this improvement is less than clear cut
[17:44:02] <nn-> to me
[17:44:49] <nn-> and i don't want to gratuitiously change from one alternative to another
[17:45:10] <nn-> it was done this way for a reason, potentially
[17:45:13] <nn-> do you know the reason?
[17:45:19] <imkingdavid> if you go to the myBB forums and login (assuming you have an account) and view a topic, go to the QR and see what it shows. Submit and Preview. submit obviously submits the post as you have it in the box. preview takes you to the full editor page
[17:45:20] <nn-> have you blamed the source to try to find it?
[17:45:35] <imkingdavid> it has been done like that since it was added
[17:46:04] <imkingdavid> i don't know the reason, and whoever added QR originally either isn't around or otherwise just hasn't stepped up to say why they made it just the full editor and not also preview
[17:46:25] <imkingdavid> i'm willing to discuss it, but I just don't see what the harm is in making the buttons for posting consistent across the posting editors
[17:46:39] <imkingdavid> anyway, I have to go for at least a little while... i'll be back later
[17:47:03] <-> You are now known as ikd|away
[17:47:21] <-> Noxwizard is now known as Noxwizard|Away
[17:48:39] <DavidIQ|iPad> the reason it was done this way is because more than half of the Dev team at the time it was added didn't like the idea so they made it as clumsy as they possibly could without being ridiculous :-P
[17:48:52] <ikd|away> :P
[17:49:07] <nn-> DavidIQ| do you support the proposed change then?
[17:49:26] <DavidIQ|iPad> absolutely
[17:49:42] <unknownbliss> nn-: Most people now do
[17:49:56] <unknownbliss> Out of interest, how come it isn't enabled in all forums on phpBB.com?
[17:50:21] <DavidIQ|iPad> see my previous note :-P
[17:50:21] <nn-> i think what i want is for that button to show preview right away
[17:50:37] <nn-> been a while since i used it
[17:50:54] <unknownbliss> DavidIQ|iPad: But that isn't the situation now
[17:50:55] <DavidIQ|iPad> so we are talking about keeping a submit and changing the second button to preview right?
[17:51:26] <unknownbliss> And making it show expanded by default?
[17:51:42] <nn-> hold your horses there unknownbliss
[17:51:47] <unknownbliss> oh ok
[17:51:54] -*- unknownbliss holds my horses
[17:51:58] <DavidIQ|iPad> I'd remove the ability to collapse it altogether but that's a separate RFC anyways
[17:52:43] <nn-> (17:49:45) unknownbliss: nn-: Most people now do - i see about 5 people posting in the rfc topic
[17:53:11] <unknownbliss> To be honest area51 isn't very active
[17:53:28] <nn-> i think i support this now
[17:53:37] <unknownbliss> its made up of team members and about 5 community members (until phpBB registered for GSoC)
[17:54:06] <nn->  Right now if I want to preview what I have in QR, I have to click Full Editor and then Preview.  - i probably want this
[17:54:28] <nn->  IMO, it would be best if we remove the Full Editor button and simply turn it into a Preview button. - if we don't have any good ideas for combining the two labels this would be acceptable i would say
[17:54:48] <unknownbliss> I would say just have preview and submit
[17:54:49] <DavidIQ|iPad> nn-: I fully agree
[17:55:16] <nn-> the first part really should be all that matters to heavy users
[17:55:37] <nn-> i don't think there is any contention regarding it
[17:56:22] <nn-> i guess you can expect preview to have the full editor
[17:56:37] <nn-> the other option would be some sort of ajax preview on viewtopic
[17:56:43] <nn-> if we do that we might need the full editor button
[17:57:14] <nn-> if you are a new user you need to click it once to validate that preview has the full editor, then you would remember
[17:57:23] <nn-> bonus points if this is consistent with the other boards
[17:57:51] <nn-> now on expanded qr i am not sold yet
[17:58:05] <nn-> probably because it's disabled on area51 for some inexplicable reason and i don't post on .com much
[17:58:12] <nn-> come to think of it i believe it's disabled on .com as well
[17:58:53] <nn-> certainly i don't know where i saw it last
[17:59:30] <nn-> and i'm out
[17:59:47] <nn-> if we like qr now maybe we should enable it on our own boards
[18:03:37] <DavidIQ|iPad> I think to be convinced you'd have to be active on a forum that has it that way
[18:03:45] <DavidIQ|iPad> the xda forums have it like that
[18:03:57] <DavidIQ|iPad> they are using vBulletin however
[18:04:54] <A_Jelly_Donut> IIRC vB's QR button titles are "Submit" and "Go Advanced" (although I'm not currently active on any vB sites)
[18:05:46] <A_Jelly_Donut> which happens to be the interface we stole from :P
[18:10:14] <DavidIQ|iPad> yes that is how they have it in vB
[18:10:34] <ikd|away> i'm back
[18:10:36] <-> You are now known as imkingdavid
[18:10:48] <DavidIQ|iPad> but when you click on the Go Advanced button the preview is loaded
[18:11:08] <DavidIQ|iPad> maybe we could make our button Preview/Advanced
[18:11:21] <imkingdavid> irt disabled QR, I believe it is only enabled in Chit Chat on a51 and maybe General Discussion on .com (haven't checked)
[18:12:08] <unknownbliss> just test forum on .com
[18:12:35] <A_Jelly_Donut> tbh, I thought our "full editor" button loaded the preview until the issue was raised recently
[18:12:53] <naderman> wait what is the situation here now?
[18:12:54] <imkingdavid> A_Jelly_Donut: right... that is the expected behavior
[18:12:57] <naderman> who proposed what?
[18:13:04] <naderman> and who is unhappy with what?
[18:13:12] <imkingdavid> naderman: QR "full editor" does not show preview
[18:13:20] <naderman> right
[18:13:22] <imkingdavid> proposal is to change "full editor" to "preview"
[18:13:32] <unknownbliss> like in vB
[18:13:33] <naderman> but then how do you find the full editor?
[18:13:37] <imkingdavid> by clicking preview
[18:13:42] <naderman> I mean how would you know the full editor is behind preview
[18:13:45] <unknownbliss> below the preview when you've licked preview
[18:13:46] <naderman> that is really very unintuitive
[18:13:55] <imkingdavid> naderman: that is how it is in every other software I have used
[18:13:58] <unknownbliss> [23:11:09] <DavidIQ|iPad> maybe we could make our button Preview/Advanced
[18:14:00] <imkingdavid> namely mybb and vbulletin
[18:14:03] <naderman> imkingdavid: then the other software is wrong
[18:14:06] <imkingdavid> lol
[18:14:09] <unknownbliss> lol
[18:14:11] <imkingdavid> iyo
[18:14:12] <imkingdavid> :P
[18:14:15] <A_Jelly_Donut> lol
[18:14:17] <naderman> it makes 0 sense to have to click a "Preview" button if you want an editor
[18:14:27] <naderman> it makes sense to have a Preview button, I agree
[18:14:37] <imkingdavid> what do you propose preview should od than?
[18:14:37] <imkingdavid> do*
[18:14:39] <naderman> but it also makes sense to have a button for full editor, if you want a full editor
[18:14:52] <naderman> imkingdavid: I'd propose that we change it to Preview & Full Editor
[18:14:58] <imkingdavid> that's a big button
[18:15:00] <unknownbliss> What about davidIQ's suggestion (why do we have to have two davids)
[18:15:05] <naderman> imkingdavid: there is plenty of space there
[18:15:11] <naderman> unknownbliss1: what was his suggestion?
[18:15:14] <unknownbliss> [23:11:09] <DavidIQ|iPad> maybe we could make our button Preview/Advanced
[18:15:18] <imkingdavid> how about leave it as "full editor" and have it preview by default?
[18:15:20] <unknownbliss> What you just said
[18:15:25] <naderman> unknownbliss1: "Advanced" what?
[18:15:29] <galaxyAbstractor> Full editor makes more sense to me, and a preview and full editor is shown when pressing it. But that's maybe because I'm used to it on a non-phpBB forum I visit
[18:15:32] <unknownbliss> Advanced Editor
[18:15:37] <unknownbliss> its what vB uses
[18:15:38] <naderman> imkingdavid: that is also not intuitive, you then still don't know how to get a preview
[18:15:51] <imkingdavid> well currently you don't know how to get to a preview
[18:15:57] <naderman> imkingdavid: so I think it should really be changed to Preview & Full Editor and it should display the preview
[18:16:01] <imkingdavid> i'm just trying to not have 30 million buttons on QR
[18:16:04] <unknownbliss> ok
[18:16:05] <naderman> imkingdavid: yes, then let's fix that without breaking it
[18:16:15] <naderman> imkingdavid: with my proposal there are exactly as many buttons as now
[18:16:24] <naderman> except the button now serves both purposes
[18:16:28] <naderman> and clearly communicates that fact
[18:17:20] <imkingdavid> when you click "preview" within full editor, it shows preview on top of full editor. When in quick reply, you click preview, you expect to go to preview and still be able to edit, so why would you not expect full editor below the preview?
[18:17:33] <imkingdavid> i don't see the issue
[18:17:38] <naderman> imkingdavid: because you just used phpBB for the first time
[18:17:43] <naderman> and didn't even know there was a full editor
[18:17:50] <naderman> so you never find out there is one, cause you never use preview
[18:18:01] <naderman> having it say "Full Editor" means it's unclear where Preview is, having it say "Preview" means it's unclear where the editor is
[18:18:02] <imkingdavid> and never click "post reply"?
[18:18:06] <naderman> so neither of those are acceptable
[18:18:10] <naderman> imkingdavid: why would that person?
[18:18:22] <imkingdavid> because they haven't scrolled to the bottom of the page to see Qr
[18:18:29] <naderman> the original idea was that you don't need Preview for quick replies
[18:18:29] <imkingdavid> or QR is disabled in some forums so they haev to
[18:18:38] <naderman> imkingdavid: well sure it's possible
[18:18:42] <naderman> but the opposite is also possible
[18:18:55] <naderman> buttons should be clearly labeld
[18:18:56] <naderman> *labeld
[18:18:58] <naderman> gah
[18:19:00] <naderman> *labeled
[18:19:01] <imkingdavid> lol
[18:19:07] <naderman> if their purpose is to take you to Preview and Full Editor
[18:19:11] <naderman> they should say Preview and Full Editor
[18:19:22] <imkingdavid> okay i'll change that then
[18:19:25] <naderman> I really don't see what the issue with that is?
[18:19:32] <A_Jelly_Donut> prevew and full editor are the same thing
[18:19:33] <imkingdavid> i just don't like having long buttons
[18:19:38] <naderman> A_Jelly_Donut: they are not
[18:19:42] <naderman> an editor is where you edit text
[18:19:49] <naderman> preview is where it displays rendered text
[18:19:59] <naderman> imkingdavid: 4 words is not that long
[18:20:03] -*- A_Jelly_Donut blinks
[18:20:09] <imkingdavid> what other buttons do we have that are that long?
[18:20:10] <unknownbliss> Will the WYSIWYG editor also be for the QR?
[18:20:13] <naderman> and as I already said there is plenty of space there
[18:20:17] <naderman> imkingdavid: plenty?
[18:20:26] <naderman> we have buttons with entire sentences on them in ucp/mcp/acp
[18:20:47] <imkingdavid> that's a UX hazard... long buttons look ugly, imo
[18:20:48] <naderman> imkingdavid: and really you are more concerned about having 4 words on a button than users not understanding what the button is for?
[18:20:49] <naderman> :S
[18:20:58] <naderman> UX also means buttons need to make sense
[18:21:00] <imkingdavid> i think we're treating our users like 2 yaer olds
[18:21:07] <imkingdavid> year*
[18:21:08] <naderman> putting anything less than those 4 words on there is horrible UX
[18:21:10] <naderman> because it makes no sense
[18:21:22] <imkingdavid> then we should change the button on the posting screen as well
[18:21:27] <unknownbliss> imkingdavid: Some users act like 2 year olds
[18:21:36] <unknownbliss> first time using phpBB it could be helpful
[18:21:39] <naderman> imkingdavid: why? the button on the posting screen does exactly what it says
[18:22:12] <unknownbliss> Always act on a basis users are thick
[18:22:23] <naderman> also this has nothing to do with treating users like 2 year olds
[18:22:28] <naderman> it has something to do with respecting users
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[18:22:39] <naderman> and not making them know things that no reasonable person would be able to guess
[18:22:50] <naderman> if I use software, I sure want them to make buttons that make sense
[18:22:59] <unknownbliss> Comprise: Preview & Full Editor?
[18:22:59] <naderman> and not just say some random word, that isn't actually what it does
[18:23:03] <imkingdavid> ehh fine. i'll change it to "Full Editor & Preview"... good?
[18:23:07] <naderman> unknownbliss1: that is what I proposed
[18:23:11] <naderman> imkingdavid: yes please