Conversation about Duolingo at #lojban.

irc.txt

[23:55] latros: the actual structure is something like
[23:55] <Wizek> coi rodo
[23:55] tsani: coi uizek
[23:56] <Wizek> Have you guys heard about Duolingo?
[23:56] Tengo: .i coi .uizek.
[23:56] latros: ...the actual structure is actually really really really hard to gloss
[23:56] latros: I just tried and failed
[23:56] rossi: ok
[23:56] latros: I have heard a little about it yeah
[23:58] <Wizek> And what do you think about it?
[23:58] latros: a friend of mine has played with a bit and apparently it breaks a bit
[23:58] tsani: Wizek: it seems pretty neat, I must say. I've signed up for the beta, but no answer yet.
[00:00] latros: breaks in the sense that people fail enough that it's actually wrong quite a bit
[00:00] <Wizek> latros, what do you mean?
[00:00] latros: people do things wrong on it a lot
[00:01] <Wizek> latros, you mean the practising section of the site?
[00:03] <Wizek> tsani, have you tried interacting with them on facebook? If you try (eg some comments), you might get an invite earlier. At least it was how I got mine.
[00:04] tsani: Wizek, no, I haven't tried that, but maybe I will. I'm not really sure how interested I am in it though.
[00:05] latros: I don't remember, wizek
[00:06] <Wizek> But the reason I brought this up in here is that they have a little section where you can sign up to be notified when certain languages become available. And guess what, they have a conlang on their list
[00:06] <Wizek> so I thought -- if you are interested -- we could somehow ask them to put Lojban on their list.
[00:08] tsani: Well, iirc, Duolingo works by "you translate stuff from the language you want to learn into the languages in which you're more fluent"
[00:08] <Wizek> That would have 2 benefits upont completion: An all-inclusive free online Lojban learning and practising platform, and some more learners to the community who chose Lojban on the list just for fun.
[00:09] tsani: (I assume the conlang they already have is Esperanto?)
[00:09] <Wizek> tsani, Klingon
[00:09] tsani: huh
[00:09] <Wizek> tsani, I responded the same way :D
[00:09] tsani: :P
[00:10] <Wizek> tsani, but also with some bliss, that if they are willing to include Klingon in the future, we might as well get them to have jbo as well
[00:10] tsani: true
[00:12] <Wizek> tsani, But I suspect that won't happen by itself. If we are truly interested in this possibility, and want to take advantage of it, we need to take some steps (e.g. sending them kind letters on the subject)
[00:13] <Wizek> They'll also need someone from our community to help them put together the language's structure
[00:13] <Wizek> Somewhat with a really good understanding of Lojban, or even fluency
[00:14] <Wizek> tsani, Would there be such person willing to do that?
[00:15] tsani: certainly. rlpowell would, but he's really busy, so probably not. Other pretty skilled lojbanists are selpa'i, latros, and me. Daniel is good, but not on very often. I wonder if xorxes would want to.
[00:18] Tengo: From CLL: text0 = [NAI ...] [CMENE ... # | (indicators & free ...)] [joik-jek] text-1
[00:20] Tengo: {nai .uotaFAK. coi}
[00:20] * tsani cu klaku
[00:20] Tengo: feisPALM.
[00:21] <Wizek> tsani, have a look at how they are hiring for the other languages please here: http://screencast.com/t/d0moaEutnS6
[00:22] <Wizek> tsani, do you whink any of you could have this much dedication?
[00:22] <Wizek> *think
[00:24] tsani: I wouldn't suspect it, no :/
[00:25] tsani: "you should be ready to make Duolingo the primary focus of your life"
[00:25] tsani: uhhhhh
[00:25] tsani: I don't think so ^^"
[00:27] <Wizek> tsani, that might not be a problem just yet, the very first thing is to get in touch with them so that they can tell us whant are the requirements for including Lojban in the frst place. They specially taylor each languages learning structure, so I wouldn't be suprised if the needs they specify would be different.
[00:27] <Wizek> After all, the sample I sent you is for Portuguese, French, and Spanish
[00:28] tsani: yes
[00:28] tsani: the requirements for simply adding a new language shouldn't be as rogh
[00:28] tsani: *rough
[00:29] <Wizek> tsani, do you have any idea on how to make this whole thing happen? (If you would like to see this made happen)
[00:30] Tengo: I'm afraid, it may be a long time befire they will concider adding languages like Lojban. They probably have a lot of other work to do.
[00:30] Tengo: *before
[00:31] Tengo: *consider
[00:32] tsani: Wizek, not sure how I'd see this.
[00:32] <Wizek> Tengo, We could try, and if nothing more comes out, they'll see that this community would like to have Lojban on the site, and they can get back to us when they're ready.
[00:33] <Wizek> I would neither suspect having Lojban there before French, but after some of those essental (for them being wide-spread) languages, yes, why not?
[00:34] <Wizek> Or consider this:
[00:35] <Wizek> there is currently around 300,000 people on their waiting list
[00:35] <Wizek> to get a beta invite
[00:36] <Wizek> Most probably all of them are interested in learning languages
[00:36] <Wizek> and they see this "Lojban" thing in the notify me dropdown, and do some google searching for it
[00:37] Tengo: That would be cool.
[00:37] <Wizek> and might mark it, to get notified if what they see is of interest to them
[00:37] Tengo: Duolingo translates existing texts. Do we have enought Lojban texts to be translated to other languages for it to make difference?
[00:37] Tengo: *enough
[00:38] <Wizek> Tengo, we have Alice, don't we?
[00:38] <Wizek> and some other material as well
[00:38] <Wizek> And also Tatoeba
[00:39] <Wizek> but, this is the order I see this could go:
[00:39] Tengo: Tatoeba doesn't count. As I understand it, Duolingo translates (sections of) websites that are in a given language.
[00:40] <Wizek> We get in tuch with them, and convince them, to place Lojban on their notify-me list, to see how much interest there is
[00:40] <Wizek> if they see interest and cover the more popular languages, then they get back to us to have lojban too
[00:41] Tengo: Like, if we had a Lojban website with information interesting for non-Lojbanists, Duolingo might be interested in translating it.
[00:42] Tengo: And "Alice" is already translated to many languages, I think.
[00:42] <Wizek> Tengo, I think that process can go both ways
[00:42] <Wizek> Tengo, e.g. translating the entire English wikipedia to Lojban.
[00:42] <Wizek> bit-by-bit
[00:43] Tengo: Not only can, it must go both ways, I think.
[00:44] Tengo: We do want to translate texts into Lojban. But we need materials for the other direction as well.
[00:44] <Wizek> Tengo, Yep, that's true
[00:44] Tengo: (It's my vision, I may be wrong, though)
[00:45] <Wizek> Tengo, Need to have a collection of what's already translated or written in lojban, so that we can show it to them
[00:45] <Wizek> but
[00:45] Tengo: Original works would be of much more significance, I think.
[00:46] <Wizek> .ie
[00:47] <Wizek> Here comes a BIG 'BUT' to our adventage: their lesson structure isn't dependent on translations from the web. It can be composed without a single original material out there on the internet.
[00:47] <Wizek> And as people advance using the service, original content will emerge inevitably.
[00:48] <Wizek> How do you like? :)
[00:48] Tengo: Sounds very interesting.
[00:48] Tengo: How does Duolingo make money?
[00:48] <Wizek> tsani, Are you following along? What do you think?
[00:49] <Wizek> Tengo, You will be able to pay them to have your text translated quickly with in a good quality.
[00:49] <Wizek> Tengo, I suspect mostly corporations and organizations will have their costs covered to run the sites
[00:50] Tengo: I thought so. Would they be interested in Lojban then?
[00:50] <Wizek> Tengo, Think of it the other way around: They Already included Klingon on that list.
[00:51] Tengo: Yes, that is a kind of a sign.
[00:52] Tengo: I'm interested in their methods. Maybe we could also use some of them them without waiting for inclusion of Lojban.
[00:53] <Wizek> Tengo, have you tried the site yet?
[00:53] Tengo: No.
[00:54] <Wizek> Tengo, you should. :)
[00:54] rlpowell: tsani: What is the thing Wizek was asking for that I don't have time to do?
[00:56] Tengo: rlpowell, maybe work for Duolingo if they are to have Lojban in their list of languages.
[00:56] <Wizek> rlpowell, It's about having lojban exposed to a great number of people, potentially having a wonderful and interactive experience of learning Lojban online and such. Nothing too important I suspect.:)
[01:01] rlpowell: duolingo is totally inappropriate for Lojban learning.
[01:02] <Wizek> rlpowell, why do you think so?
[01:02] rlpowell: Because learning a language with duolingo requires there being many web pages *written in that language*.
[01:03] <Wizek> rlpowell, "[00:47] <Wizek> Here comes a BIG 'BUT' to our adventage: their lesson structure isn't dependent on translations from the web. It can be composed without a single original material out there on the internet."
[01:04] rlpowell: That contradicts everything I've seen about duolingo; show me where you've seen this please.
[01:05] <Wizek> rlpowell, I'm using the beta.
[01:07] <Wizek> rlpowell, There is a tree of inter-dependent lessons, which you can choose to learn when you've done the pre-requisites. These lessons are entirely human-made, and structured, with some element of randomness so that the lessons don't get boring. And when you are done with this you might translate content from the web to futher your understanding of that concept, to practise.
[01:08] <Wizek> rlpowell, These lessons could be made for lojban even without a single sentence to translate
[01:08] rlpowell: At which point we'd have some static lessons; what does that have to do with duolingo?
[01:08] rlpowell: I mean, why not just post them as lessons, copying their format if you like it?
[01:08] tsani: Wizek, sorry, I had to go for a moment, and I'll unfortunately only be back in about 30 minutes from now. I've read the backscroll though; it seems interesting.
[01:09] <Wizek> rlpowell, there are several adventages:
[01:10] <Wizek> rlpowell, audience. I suspect duolingo to become quite big as time goes on. If we parthner with them in some way this early on, that means that a lot of peaople will be exposed to lojban.
[01:12] <Wizek> rlpowell, the tools are already made with very high quality. Even though you describe those lessons as static (I'd call them more human-structured, or human-guided), they are very much interactive and engaging, and would be a major undertaking to copy it (not to mention copyright issues with such a copy)
[01:13] rlpowell: Erm, that's actually not how copyright works.
[01:13] rlpowell: I mean, unless you copied the *text* of the lessons.
[01:13] <Wizek> rlpowell, I'm not a lawyer, but I can estimate that building such service would be a lot more effort than helping them build one for Lojban.
[01:14] rlpowell: Have they expressed willingness to work on that with us?
[01:14] rlpowell: Since they're goal is to translate the web, that would be pretty surprising, but stranger things have happened.
[01:14] <Wizek> rlpowell, They have a conlang included in their 'notify-me' list
[01:15] rlpowell: OK, so, no.
[01:15] <Wizek> rlpowell, what do you mean by no?
[01:15] rlpowell: They have not actually said "Hey, that Lojban thing sounds neat, we'd like to work on that".
[01:16] <Wizek> rlpowell, they might not even know about it much -- or little.
[01:16] Moddington: Then rectify this.
[01:16] rlpowell: Quite.
[01:16] rlpowell: We're an all volunteer community; if you want to reach out to duolingo, you should feel very free to do so.
[01:18] <Wizek> Before I did that, I wanted to make sure that at least the community understands what I wish to do, and suport it if you agree however you are willing to do so.
[01:18] wobsite: coi
[01:19] <Wizek> rlpowell, for example, if things escalated quickly, and they wanted someone to help them build the lessons, I would have to point them towards someone here who knows a lot more ablout lojban than I do.
[01:19] rlpowell: *nod*
[01:19] Tengo: .i coi .uobsait.
[01:20] rlpowell: Good luck.
[01:20] rlpowell: Sorry, but tsani was quite correct; I'm staggeringly busy.
[01:21] <Wizek> rlpowell, can you recommend me someone who I should look for who meats the criteria above?
[01:23] rlpowell: Wizek: I have had a great deal of trouble finding people around here who actually do what they say they're going to do.  So, no, sorry.  If you find such a person, please tell me about it.
[01:25] <Wizek> rlpowell, what do you mean by "who actually do what they say they're going to do."? Do I need to know about something?
[01:26] rlpowell: *shrug*   For whatever reason, this community doesn't seem to attract reliable volunteers.  Not that anyone's malicious, just they don't prioritize helping out with Lojban above whatever their other stuff is.
[01:27] rlpowell: Now having said that, the stuff I'm looking for is usually more technical than what you have in mind; getting people to just translate stuff seems to be easier?, judging by traffic on the main mailing list.
[01:28] rlpowell: But as the person that keeps the engine ticking over around here, the lack of help I've received in the last decade is pretty impressive.
[01:28] rlpowell: Regardless, I'd post something to the main mailing list.
[01:29] <Wizek> rlpowell, it wouldn't be mainly about translation, but rather putting together the lesson structure, and then filling it up with reliable content.
[01:29] rlpowell: 'k.
[01:32] <Wizek> I've made a post about it in the Lojban subreddit at Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/s7114/would_you_be_interested_in_learning_lojban_with/ Will post about it in the mailing list as well, thanks for the suggestion rlpowell.
[01:33] rlpowell: You're welcome.  Sorry if I seemed hostile; it was more about conversational efficiency than anything else.  :)
[01:34] rlpowell: (two babies in the house, more-or-less two jobs, 2.5 girlfriends ... I'm a bit overbooked)
[01:35] <Wizek> rlpowell, No problems, I understand what it's like to be busy. :)