gistfile1.html

[07:15]	_samo_	hi morning
[07:16]	condar	hi _samo_
[07:16]	_samo_	hi there
[07:19]	_samo_	DarkTide: ping
[07:19]	DarkTide	pong
[07:23]	_samo_	DarkTide: hi good night
[07:24]	_samo_	DarkTide: I wonder what's your opinion about this: http://www.yafaray.org/community/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4049
[07:25]	DarkTide	my opinion?
[07:26]	_samo_	yes, what do you think its the source of the slowdown
[07:26]	_samo_	4 times slower in path tracing is a huge difference
[07:29]	DarkTide	i know the source _samo_
[07:29]	DarkTide	the MIS sampling strategy changed completely
[07:29]	DarkTide	since it was farely incomplete for glossy materials
[07:30]	_samo_	Darktide, but if i render the same scene with shinydiffuse instead of glossy, the difference remains
[07:31]	DarkTide	yes, the whole sampling strategy was changed
[07:31]	DarkTide	if you look at the resulting images more than the times you'll see that images are much cleaner with fewer passes
[07:31]	_samo_	DarkTide: I noticed that
[07:32]	_samo_	DarkTide: the first pass produces already a cleaner result
[07:32]	DarkTide	yes that's the issue
[07:32]	DarkTide	pt is supersampling from the begining
[07:32]	_samo_	ok then I guess with yafaray 012 fewer passes are needed then?
[07:33]	DarkTide	i yes
[07:33]	DarkTide	also the results are consistent with pm and dl
[07:33]	DarkTide	which isn't the case on 0.1.1
[07:34]	_samo_	ok that's an answer thanks
[07:34]	DarkTide	yw
[07:35]	_samo_	I guess we should explain that when we release the rc and the stable, since everyone is going to complain
[07:35]	DarkTide	i can try to remove the supersampling on pt and see if the times and the results get a better balance
[07:35]	DarkTide	yes
[07:35]	_samo_	you don't need to, only that we should explain users what to expect now
[07:36]	DarkTide	ok
[07:36]	DarkTide	but know that there is still some room for optimization, this changes were made with consistensy and correctness in mind not optimization
[07:37]	DarkTide	not much room but some
[07:37]	_samo_	DarkTide: if you think the new sampling is better, I'm ok with it
[07:38]	_samo_	in fact the result is good with yafaray 012, so it is only a question of using fewer passes
[07:40]	DarkTide	a simple test to really see the difference is to render a glossy sphere with only bg texture
[07:42]	_samo_	it will produce a less noisy result in the first pass?
[07:42]	DarkTide	0.1.1 has no bg reflection on glossy
[07:42]	DarkTide	using pt i mean
[07:45]	_samo_	ok I'm going to test that
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[07:50]	_samo_	DarkTide: I should enable 'use background' in yafaray 011, right?
[07:51]	DarkTide	nope that will lit the sphere much like ibl does
[07:51]	DarkTide	so is not exactly the same effect
[07:52]	_samo_	ok
[07:54]	_samo_	DarkTide: what kind of background should I use to test that?
[07:54]	DarkTide	any texture bg
[07:54]	DarkTide	in fact iirc any bg
[08:01]	_samo_	DarkTide: yes I see differences
[08:01]	condar	_samo_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/reflection011.png
[08:01]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/reflection012.png
[08:02]	_samo_	DarkTide: even if the background does not emit light, the glossy material in 012 is reflecting the blue sky
[08:03]	_samo_	condar: yes I get similar results
[08:05]	_samo_	http://img821.imageshack.us/g/yafaray011.png/
[08:07]	_samo_	the sampling is completely different in yafaray 012
[08:08]	DarkTide	now render that same scene in 0.1.1 with dl and then do the same with 0.1.2
[08:12]	_samo_	ok let me try that
[08:14]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/dl011.png
[08:14]	condar	consistency have a price
[08:22]	_samo_	http://img600.imageshack.us/g/yafaray011dl.png/
[08:27]	DarkTide	now you've seen what i ment about consistensy and the sampling strategy change
[08:29]	_samo_	this is what I get with the background not emitting light : http://img851.imageshack.us/i/yafaray012dlnbgl.jpg/
[08:29]	_samo_	in yafaray 011 I get a black image
[08:30]	DarkTide	this is suomi's scene with 8 samples on pt
[08:30]	DarkTide	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6595937/8-samples-pt.png
[08:30]	_samo_	sorry I'm wrong,
[08:30]	_samo_	in direct lighting, yafaray 011 delivers a correct result
[08:31]	condar	so in theory 0.1.2 needs or less samples or less pases to get same result?
[08:31]	_samo_	I mean with no background lighting I can see the background still reflected on the sphere
[08:31]	_samo_	but in path tracing yafaray does not reflect the background, only the lighting, I'm right?
[08:33]	DarkTide	_samo_: yes you are right
[08:33]	DarkTide	condar: that is correct
[08:33]	_samo_	DarkTide: one thing I was not sure about when comparing suomi's result is the fact that I'm not sure whether the yafaray 012 result is using the same bump strenght
[08:35]	_samo_	that's why I could not compare the sampling either
[08:35]	DarkTide	the bump algorithms was changed
[08:35]	DarkTide	-s
[08:36]	_samo_	ok, but they using the same strenght when the use the same values? i mean yafaray 011 compared to yafaray 012
[08:36]	_samo_	*are they
[08:37]	_samo_	*they
[08:38]	_samo_	DarkTide: also can you produce the same scene in yafaray 011 please?
[08:38]	condar	1min 56 instead of 5 min 30 sec
[08:38]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/16samplesPT.png
[08:38]	_samo_	with 8 samples
[08:38]	condar	but only 16 samples
[08:39]	DarkTide	condar can you do the same for 0.1.1 please i don't have 0.1.1 at hand
[08:39]	condar	and the quality is pretty much the same
[08:39]	subcomandante	oh noooo, the bump algorithm noooooooo
[08:39]	DarkTide	subcomandante: don't worry _bert fixed it
[08:39]	subcomandante	j/k
[08:39]	DarkTide	
[08:39]	condar	_samo_: same scene but 64 samples 5min 30 sec
[08:39]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/012.png
[08:39]	DarkTide	then...
[08:39]	DarkTide	i hate you!!
[08:39]	DarkTide	hehehe
[08:40]	_samo_	condar can you try the same sampling in yafaray 011, I want to compare results instead of render times
[08:40]	condar	1 minute
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[08:41]	sandkign	hi
[08:42]	DarkTide	sandkign?
[08:42]	sandkign	i was just wondering if there is difference if i use one large piece of glass intersecting with walls and simulating windows or should i make each window separately
[08:42]	sandkign	?
[08:42]	DarkTide	you misspelled your nick
[08:42]	sandkign	DarkTide: aye?
[08:42]	sandkign	nevermind :d
[08:42]	DarkTide	or aren't you sandking?
[08:42]	sandkign	i use this stupid webchat as after IT reorganization they won't let me have irc client
[08:42]	DarkTide	hehehe
[08:43]	sandkign	so back to the glass - is using one piece of glass in the wall ok ?
[08:43]	DarkTide	well i'm guessing the large glass doesn't make any difference as lokg as it is embedded in the wall
[08:43]	DarkTide	long*
[08:43]	sandkign	or should glass panes not interfere physically for correct calculations?
[08:43]	sandkign	ok
[08:43]	condar	sandkign: but it's better to keep windows separately for alrge projects... believe me
[08:44]	condar	*large
[08:44]	sandkign	i remember it was quite important when modelling water in glass to have proper caustic effects
[08:44]	sandkign	condar: yeah, but it's a side prop now
[08:44]	DarkTide	for realism is bettes since you can hcange the angles of the windows a bit and get a realistic appearance
[08:44]	sandkign	i'm detailing windows of the main thing
[08:45]	sandkign	oh, i didn't thought about changing arc trick - thanks
[08:45]	DarkTide	damn i need to sleep some time soon
[08:45]	sandkign	i use normal map for glass imperfection sometimes
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[08:45]	sandkign	DarkTide: don't waste time on sleep
[08:46]	_samo_	hi subcomandante
[08:46]	DarkTide	i'm trying but morpheus call is too strong
[08:46]	subcomandante	hola _samo_
[08:46]	DarkTide	btw subcomandante: chiao fratello!!!
[08:46]	DarkTide	damn
[08:46]	subcomandante	
[08:46]	condar	hi subcomandante
[08:46]	DarkTide	ciao*
[08:46]	DarkTide	hehe
[08:46]	sandkign	anyone by chance knows this tutorial that floated about a month ago when a chap is doing evening viz of office building by the street? he detailed some light tricks there and i can't find it . it wasn't yafaray/blender related as i remember
[08:48]	condar	_samo_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/011pt64samples.png
[08:48]	DarkTide	condar: and 16?
[08:48]	condar	rendering
[08:48]	DarkTide	thx
[08:49]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/011pt16samples.png
[08:49]	_samo_	condar, really? why the reflections are so different
[08:49]	condar	because is glossy..
[08:49]	DarkTide	bg reflection i'm guessing
[08:49]	DarkTide	is a white bg?
[08:49]	condar	*it's
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[08:50]	condar	yep
[08:50]	DarkTide	then there is the difference
[08:50]	condar	the 16samples version for 0.1.2 took the same time than a 64samples 0.1.1 version
[08:50]	condar	and the quality is close
[08:51]	DarkTide	yep
[08:51]	DarkTide	can you render 0.1.2 16 samples with a black bg after the 16 samples 0.1.1 version?
[08:51]	condar	so test 0.1.1 vs 0.1.2 with the same ettings is pointless
[08:51]	DarkTide	please?
[08:51]	condar	1 minute
[08:52]	DarkTide	thank you very very much, you are the best tester we have on the room right now
[08:52]	DarkTide	...
[08:52]	DarkTide	the only one i ment
[08:52]	DarkTide	hahahaha
[08:53]	condar	hehehehe
[08:54]	condar	so ... 0.1.2 is not slower than 0.1.1.it make better sampling
[08:54]	condar	*makes
[08:55]	condar	man... 4 am and I cannot control the keyboard
[08:55]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/012blackBG.png
[08:57]	DarkTide	so glossy is still missing pieces in 0.1.1?
[08:57]	DarkTide	can you run a dl test?
[08:57]	condar	0.1.1?
[08:57]	DarkTide	i'm sorry for being such a pita but i don't have 0.1.1
[08:57]	DarkTide	yes please
[08:58]	condar	back to 0.1.1................
[09:01]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/011DL.png
[09:02]	condar	yep... 0.1.2 FTW
[09:02]	DarkTide	??
[09:04]	condar	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4113119/011DLblackBG.png
[09:06]	condar	ok... I need to sleep... cu later
[09:06]	|<--	condar has left freenode (Quit: Leaving.)
[09:08]	_samo_	this is my results with bump maps disabled : http://img541.imageshack.us/g/yafaray011pt16.png/
[09:09]	DarkTide	that's quite a difference
[09:09]	_samo_	less noise in yafaray 012, it is also reflecting the background unlike yafaray 011
[09:17]	_samo_	DarkTide: in MIS sampling strategy, was does MIS stand for
[09:18]	DarkTide	Multiple Importance Sampling
[09:20]	_samo_	darktideok thanks for you time to explain all of this
[09:20]	_samo_	Darktide: ok thanks for you time to explain all of this
[09:21]	DarkTide	
[09:21]	DarkTide	yw _samo_ now i go to bed
[09:21]	DarkTide	c u tomorrow
[09:24]	_samo_	cu DarkTide