Transcript for Make the Game episode 18: Designing a great player experience with Coraly Rosario

mtg_018.txt

https://www.valadria.com/ux-design-with-coraly-rosario/

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Well, Corley, thanks for joining me today. How are you doing

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I'm good. I'm just coming off work on a Friday, so I'm ready.

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I'm ready for the weekend

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Oh, best time of the week. Yeah, that's amazing. I am really anxious to talk to you about all the cool things that you do.

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You know your your day to day job, your association with the Puerto Rico Game Developers Association I thought it might be a fun place to start asking you about this.

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It seems like just yesterday, but it might have been a month or 2 now.

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I opened up the Google play store. I opened it up and there's your shining smiling face at the top of the banner.

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Yes.

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Broadcasted to millions of people so cool. How did that come to be

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So I wanna say, towards summer of last year some of the folks from the er G.

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And diversity and inclusion. Like, Department, yeah, at Google reached out to me because they really wanted to feature a bunch of different Latin American like games.

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And I rally the troops like I always do like.

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Hey? I need to know what you're working on. Do you have a demo? Is it on?

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You know the Google play store and stuff, and like just a bunch of folks started sending me with the Latinx and gaming organization as well.

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They happen to have a list that they had curated to.

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And really, I just like sent it over and again, like not expecting anything, not really cause. I have a lot of people that do ask me for for resources like that, and that's part of what we do.

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And I wanna say, like around August or September, they're like, Hey, so we wanna highlight you and I'm like, Wait, what can you answer these questions?

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I'm like, sure, yeah. And you know, it was for Hispanic heritage month, and I didn't really know like the scope of what they were doing.

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I thought it was just gonna be like a one off like article or something, and and then, when I see like, it comes out I'm like so excited.

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And then, oh, my God! Got meals on here, and and like the Boxer, and and like these other like, really, really like big people and stuff and I'm just like, what is this?

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But but I was like so excited I showed my family, and they were like at first they didn't really understand the scope, either, because they don't, you know, and until I showed them like, No, open your Google. App.

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Yeah.

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And look for this they were like, Wait a minute. This is like, everywhere. I'm like, Yeah, it's it's everywhere.

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Yeah.

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And the company didn't know to like. I'm at Nantic right now, and and I give them the heads up whenever like.

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I'm interviewed, and that kind of stuff, you know, as long as like like, I'm not like representing the company.

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They. They never have issues with it. But it's more just like, hey, heads up like so and so is interviewing me, or or or this company is like highlighting me, or whatever.

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And I just gave them that, like general heads up and then starting, you know Hispanic heritage month, I'm like, hey?

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So that this happened, and everyone was like super excited about it.

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And and you know, coming from Puerto Rico, where

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Where there's not many of us in this industry, and we come from what a lot of folks consider like such a small island.

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Seeing me and my flag there, and like like being able to tell my story. How I got into this like it was

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It was special like. It was the first time I felt like, Oh, my God!

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People see me.

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That's so cool. What is the the game dev scene like in Puerto Rico?

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So it's it's been around. I want to say, for about 1015 years.

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Oh, wow!

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We do have. I think we have like 7 to 9 studios that have been established, but they tend to be smaller studios, you know, like very Indy games that they're working on or they're generally more like working on like as outsource talent.

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For other companies. We do have like a bunch of really great games that are again on the app store for console.

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There's also like a pretty good d and d scene over there.

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Nice

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It seems to be like pretty popular, but as a whole, like the fact is, we only have one university that does a degree in in video game development.

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They're more focused on like art and game design, as, generally speaking, not so much the programming or any of the other disciplines.

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And there are some other universities that offer, you know, degrees in engineering, or it, or networking, and they do really well, like a lot of folks that graduate from there end up in NASA Mit etc.

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But they never really consider games a viable career, or don't even think that it's possible to like.

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Apply what they're learning here to games and we do have universities that you can graduate with like art degrees and that kind of stuff.

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But again, like they don't consider games like a viable career.

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So it's, you know, with the organization that I'm a part of, it's a lot of education that we're doing, and a lot of showing like, Hey, this is this is really like career wise.

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Right.

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This is viable, like you can generate revenue out of this industry can be established.

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Out of this. We just need the people that like, how do you say it like will believe in us?

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We'll believe that it's possible, and where we go has a lot of investors.

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There's a lot of the texting is pretty good over there as well like there's a lot of experimentation.

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But again, like games, is just not the thing that they think of.

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They think

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Yup!

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I think, a blockchain. They think of crypto all of this, but it's like no like.

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Yeah.

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There are applications outside of that

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Very cool.

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But yeah, like, we, we have a community very, very talented artists, programmers, game designers, a lot of modelers and animators.

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But with what they're running into is like they they can't stay on the island if that's what they want to do.

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Hmm.

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So we do have a lot of folks leaving through the mainland or other countries to true

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I understand that? Yeah, I remember when I was a kid, I I similarly didn't know that games was a viable option.

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Right like I grew up in midwest. America, where it was like viable careers, were more like the teacher, coal miner.

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There was a university, you could go be a professor or something, whereas more, those kinds of jobs, very little software.

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Yeah.

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And I had a friend. Show me a queue basic and like he would show me the game.

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Then show me the code, and, like you can. You know you can make games like Whoa like blew my mind right like sometimes people just need to know that it's an option like you know, when I was growing up, you'd see an intended cartridge.

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I didn't know you can make that like I couldn't make that.

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Yeah.

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I had no no power in my mind, led from A to B like me making that game, you know.

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So is that what you are involved with with the the Puerto Rico Game Developers Association.

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You. You like work with these studios and onboard people is so what you're doing with them

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Yup. So really, our function is to what we're trying to do is bring the resources to the island and show the mainland and other countries that, hey?

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There's a really good workforce here that you can definitely reach out to and and and bring on to your companies.

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But we do education. We do workshops, we do.

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We reach out to different universities, to really get them updated on what the current industry is like.

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And you know with we have a board of. I think we're 7 or 9.

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Wow!

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Very cool.

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No, I'm I'm the vice chair exactly executive executive vice chair.

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Not so official.

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But yeah, I know right. But no, but I'm one of the books that's like in the main, based here in the in the Us.

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Everyone else is kind of on the island. We just had one move to Florida and another one sometimes is between Puerto Rico and and Canada.

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So at least we have that like actual perspective of someone who's in the industry actually being able to say, Hey, just in case there's there, are these updates that are coming, you know, or there's this change that's coming for our industry.

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This is what they're looking for. Now, this is what what types of jobs are really really sought after.

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If we can teach the students that are now learning, you know how to develop games, specific skill sets to what it is that they're looking for over in in these companies.

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This is what you need to learn. This is what you need to teach them.

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Very cool.

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I think off the top of my head one of like the biggest that I always bring up is like, Hey, tech art is a thing, and everyone's like, what is that cause?

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I've never heard of that before. I'm like, yeah.

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So tech. Art is this, and it's really sought after.

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And you are unicorns within our. You know our industry.

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Everyone wants you. So if you don't know whether to decide between, you know, like person or art, because you like both, which happens a lot in in our universities, or you like V effects.

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But you also, kinda like, you know, digging into unreal or unity, and just kind of playing around.

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Guess what you don't have to choose. You can do both, and

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Yeah, yeah, I think there's so many times where someone needs that kind of guidance like, you're so right, like, tech, art is not universally known like your average game, or probably doesn't even really know?

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Like, yeah, they understand fx and stuff, but they don't understand how shaders work and and the the complicated math would go right over their head right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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So that's great to be able to connect people who are interested in that stuff with, like the the path they didn't know was available.

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I love that

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Yeah. And then other things we do. We do game jams last year what we were able to bring some scholars to Gdc.

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Thanks to the Latin American Games Foundation, I think I'm am I saying that right?

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Federation, the Latin American Games Federation, which is, you know, a bunch of different countries across Latin America.

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They came together specifically, like from the game development side of things.

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And just, we kind of, we. We help each other out, we unify, we knowledge share, we resource, share, etc.

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That's great!

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So last year we were we were able to bring in some folks to gee first time ever we've been able to do something like that.

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We or we help with career fairs. And again it all, especially with Puerto Rico.

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Oh, we do a yearly showcase as well Puerto Rican talent.

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Oh!

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Yeah.

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I can link you that one later. So if you really wanna see, like what people what's actually existing and what's in development.

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Hmm.

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And and with talent from the island we work together with Yosemite and Gamer, and Frankie Lopez, and and we just like highlight what people are doing.

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And it's it's kind of like this moment where everyone's like so excited.

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And they want to see like

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Right.

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Oh, oh, cool!

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Like the the culmination of their work being shown to the entire island, because we broughtcats broadcast this on on one of the local channels, as well as like the Internet, we live, stream it and everything.

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Like a local TV network, or like a radio network, or Wow.

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And folks just get so yeah, yeah, local TV network.

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It's the same. So you'll saw you in gamer has a segment in on one of the local channels.

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I think it's I don't even remember which one it is right now.

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If it's not every day, it's every week, and once a year, when we do the showcase, he takes that segment and and just broadcast it for for the showcase.

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That's cool

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Yeah.

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So everyone gets to see, you know, like what it is that we're working on it's it's pretty popular as well with, like, you know, folks that play games to cause a lot of people that played video games don't realize that we actually have a community on the island and it's that mobile

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Right.

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Where it's like, Oh, my God! I want to learn more about this game.

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I want to play it. Where can I download it? A lot of hype around it?

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Yeah. Oh, that's so cool, so I know that you had worked previously with my wife.

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Andrea working on Ux at Scopeley.

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How would you describe what you're doing these days?

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So I am now at Nantic, like I mentioned before. I've been here my 3 year anniversary was this week.

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Oh, congrats! Very cool.

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Thanks. So I'm a ux designer right now.

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I am working on wayfare, which is our geologocation based tool to let folks actually submit and nominate new wastebox.

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So if you play something like pokemon, go or ingress and you see a real-world location that you would like, maybe turned into a book, a stop, or a gym, you can nominate that location through this tool it gets reviewed by the community and a decision is taken on whether to add it to

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the map or not. So right now we're working on in the app version of this, because currently it's it's browser based.

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So I'm working with another ux designer on that.

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I'm working on something else that I can't really talk about right now.

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It's fair

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But it's also like very data driven very internal kind of stuff.

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Oh, cool!

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Wow!

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And then, but before wayfare I was working on marvel world of heroes, so that just got announced this past summer, and I was on that team, for I wanna say, like 2 and a half years and leading Ux design on that.

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Cool.

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And it's been. It's been a lot of fun, a lot of learnings like a lot of like I've never.

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I've only ever worked on one AR app. And through this these 2 like experiences like really understanding everything that it takes to to not only design around AR, but also taking to account like a lot of tech limitations, a lot of scanning that needs to happen in order, if if you want objects to like really

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Really feel immersive, like digital auto objects to really feel immersive with the space around you like the tech needs to be able to scan, scan the space around you and do that effectively.

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Do that. How do you say it?

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Like constant scanning. Hmm

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Authentically, yeah, like, and and authentically as well like as as accurate as possible.

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I see.

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Yeah.

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There we go. Otherwise it looks weird or janky, or or or it the experience that you're trying to build doesn't really work the way that you had hoped so a lot of learning around that.

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And

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So the like. You're a player will have a phone right?

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And the scanning you're talking about is that just happening through their camera? And it's analyzing the images that it sees to try to figure out the 3D representation of it is that what's going on

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Yeah, either that or you have things that I've already been.

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So we we talk a lot about like vps. There's already like a few examples of, you know, publicly available out there of of what they're doing and vps what it does is.

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It's not only about the object, but also the location.

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Geographically of that object around you, and it stores all of that information.

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So that when you're building an experience it knows where you are in relation to the object that's in front of you, that that you're trying to interact with.

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So let's say you, and just in case this is like total hypothetical like, I'm just giving it a general example.

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Right.

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Nothing specific. What I mean is, I'm not aware of anything being worked on with like this right now.

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You are committing to nothing. Love it.

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This is just me coming up with an example. Exactly. So. Let's say there is

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I don't know. A big statue of a gundum like in a square.

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Cool. Yeah.

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I don't know, and it's already been scanned, and in that scan, and that mesh is accessible in in like our database, a developer has created an experience around it.

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So when I start interacting with that object, it knows where I am in relation to that object, and it knows the object and everything like the volume.

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Let's let's call it that. The volume of that object it it created almost

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We call it a mesh. It's kind of like a 3D.

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Model. So so the experience knows where I am and where the object is.

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And let's say, in order to start the experience, the first thing that happens is other gun dones like fly out from behind the condom that's in front of me.

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So depending on what I'm facing, and where I'm facing, I can see those gun.

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Those come from behind it, you know, and and it'll come in front of it.

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It'll be like obfuscated by the object itself.

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If it requires me to walk to a specific position, in relation to that object, I do that, and then the experience can continue, or I can see, like a different part of the experience it's it's all already available.

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Really what starts it is. Are you at the location? Is it in front of you?

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And from there it just it goes. It does its thing

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So it oh, good!

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Very interesting. Have you? Oh, I've noticed when, when when describing Ux to 2 people who especially non-technical people like like my mom, for example, right?

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Like she'll. She'll struggle with that with like when I describe what it is that that someone such as yourself does like.

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It does.

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I don't have good words for it like, do. Do you have like a way that you talk about cause like ux, designed like the experience encompasses so much right, and design is such sometimes a vague word that kind of means everything and nothing like do you have a way to describe it so we we have a better idea like what what

00:21:51.277 --> 00:21:54.528
Exactly. It is that you're doing in that space, or like a data day, or like what all it encompasses

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Oh, love! It

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I have multiple ways. Technically, you know, it is. It is as a ux designer.

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Hmm! I love that

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My job is to advocate for players, advocate for their experience when they're using a game when they're using a product.

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Whatever digital even physical products, whatever it may be. I'm the one in the room pointing out, hey, it's cool that that works.

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And is functional. However, remember, you are not the ones that are actually going to be using this thing.

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It's these people out here. Let's try to understand.

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Hmm.

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And what context it is that they're going to be using this and making sure that we are providing the most seamless, the most efficient, the most

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Hmm.

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Usable experience, while they're using it in order to either complete tasks or to find the fun, or through engagement, etc.

00:22:57.978 --> 00:23:03.729
Yeah.

00:23:03.729 --> 00:23:07.579
That's the more like my level, you know, like, oh, up here, you know, you understand a little bit about design for people who don't know anything about design and don't really like are not artists are not visual communicators, etc.

00:23:07.579 --> 00:23:16.228
But kind of want to equate it to something that they might understand a little bit better.

00:23:16.228 --> 00:23:24.978
So when you build a building, or when you're like an actual like structure like a building, you have multiple people that work on that building.

00:23:24.978 --> 00:23:31.227
You have contractors, you know, who actually like put up the wooden planks and the walls and everything.

00:23:31.227 --> 00:23:35.778
But before all that you have the architects, so you have someone who comes up with the concept of this building.

00:23:35.778 --> 00:23:40.478
What the intention is. Behind the building. What is it going to be used?

00:23:40.478 --> 00:23:46.927
Is it a hospital? Is it a theater? Is it?

00:23:46.927 --> 00:23:56.328
You know an opera kind of thing. Is it a business, etc.?

00:23:56.328 --> 00:24:08.878
So they come up with the concept, and then I feel that as a ux designer I look at that.

00:24:08.878 --> 00:24:16.078
I try to understand the concept and who is going to be using it, and I create the blueprints port in kind of like, in combination with the person who's thinking up.

00:24:16.078 --> 00:24:27.677
You know, the concept of the project and everything which to me feels a little bit like the game designer.

00:24:27.677 --> 00:24:31.578
So for me. It's the person who's creating the blueprints, because, you know, we're measuring out like, well, you know, according to these standards, doors have to be made this certain way.

00:24:31.578 --> 00:24:36.878
We'll also have to take into account. Who's going to be using this space.

00:24:36.878 --> 00:24:56.379
So the doors may need to be bigger. How tall the ceilings are!

00:24:56.379 --> 00:25:00.628
Are we accounting for like also any sort of codes like, you know, firefighter codes, or whatever that we need to comply with, which over here, in my cases, a lot like you know, the apple standards and the Google standards and accessibility standards and all of that stuff

00:25:00.628 --> 00:25:09.279
So same thing in digital products. We have to meet with these and Ffc, and all of that.

00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:20.130
And like, you know, Copa and everything. We got to make sure that we're complying with those standards.

00:25:20.130 --> 00:25:28.879
And again, just accounting for how the space is being used, based on who is going to, or what the purpose of the building is, and who is using it?

00:25:28.879 --> 00:25:32.029
From there it goes on to you know the contractors who start building the building, and we realize, hey, we don't actually have the right material to build this building.

00:25:32.029 --> 00:25:38.728
And then they come back to us and to me, and be like.

00:25:38.728 --> 00:25:50.579
So it's wood instead of cement, or it's plywall instead of like this other material.

00:25:50.579 --> 00:25:51.928
Hmm.

00:25:51.928 --> 00:25:55.329
So we have to make adjustments, you know, and and work together with the contractors, to to ensure that this building can actually be built, and then a lot of folks, you know.

00:25:55.329 --> 00:25:58.079
Ask me, well, what about ui or artists, or that kind of stuff?

00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:01.428
Well, there's a whole discipline around that, too.

00:26:01.428 --> 00:26:03.578
Hmm.

00:26:03.578 --> 00:26:10.378
Interior design, and that's a whole expertise, you know.

00:26:10.378 --> 00:26:17.579
Like, how can you make this space livable in this space actually again usable for the people who are going to be in it?

00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:26.280
I love that building analogy that really simplifies things, because you know, as saying earlier, ux is kind of a foreign concept.

00:26:26.280 --> 00:26:26.377
To a lot of people, but everyone's pretty much everyone's been in a building at some point, and oftentimes you've been in a yeah like, you have a. We have a shared language.

00:26:26.377 --> 00:26:28.329
And more or less. Yeah.

00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:35.078
We know what stairs are. We know what doors are.

00:26:35.078 --> 00:26:38.879
We know there should be an exit where it're aware of fire protocols and Max capacity and things like we don't even think about it.

00:26:38.879 --> 00:26:42.078
It's just part of living in society. I love the I'm big on analogies that really.

00:26:42.078 --> 00:26:46.429
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:46.429 --> 00:26:53.380
That's what a great way to understand help understand what you do I know a lot of ux people partially by just being married to my wife.

00:26:53.380 --> 00:26:56.327
Do you have like? I've noticed this this pattern with with ux experts is sometimes glombing ui.

00:26:56.327 --> 00:26:58.979
And ux together. It's so common. You see it everywhere.

00:26:58.979 --> 00:27:04.378
Are you okay with it? Or do you like? Does your I twitch? Should you like?

00:27:04.378 --> 00:27:06.978
Oh, I don't want to see that, or like. Where do you land on on the uux

00:27:06.978 --> 00:27:10.079
Okay.

00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:19.378
I. So it is 2 different, like areas of that expertise.

00:27:19.378 --> 00:27:21.478
I would say, when you talk about Ux, you are talking more about the general experience of it versus the the what does it look like, you know?

00:27:21.478 --> 00:27:35.728
Right.

00:27:35.728 --> 00:27:42.678
And and does what it look like, or you know, match the theme of, you know the what it is that you're building.

00:27:42.678 --> 00:27:48.378
But the thing is, they're not separate either. So like I have to work with you.

00:27:48.378 --> 00:28:02.178
Ui designers period like there's no way around it, and I lean into their expertise.

00:28:02.178 --> 00:28:07.328
So visual communication, like, really really good visual communication, that effects or or helps direct a lot of the Ui, the U. S.

00:28:07.328 --> 00:28:09.578
Side of things the flows, how things are animated, how we're providing feedback.

00:28:09.578 --> 00:28:26.177
2 users depending on what actions they're taking.

00:28:26.177 --> 00:28:27.678
So it's it's a marriage, but I strongly feel that it shouldn't necessarily be the same person a lot of times when I see job postings I see someone that you know, and we want you to do everything we want you to do the research.

00:28:27.678 --> 00:28:31.228
Yep.

00:28:31.228 --> 00:28:37.378
And the strategy and the ux and the ui, and assets and implementation.

00:28:37.378 --> 00:28:37.827
Yep.

00:28:37.827 --> 00:28:59.578
And I'm just like that is 5 people. That is a whole department, you know.

00:28:59.578 --> 00:29:01.977
And and there are some folks out there that are full stack, and but you always see that they are way better at one thing versus another, and I feel it's almost like a disservice to that person to require so much out of them that you won't even get like the true quality out of

00:29:01.977 --> 00:29:11.878
It.

00:29:11.878 --> 00:29:13.478
Yeah.

00:29:13.478 --> 00:29:15.078
Yeah, for me if you can hire a ui and ux person separately, you're on the right track and have them work very, very closely together.

00:29:15.078 --> 00:29:37.779
Yeah.

00:29:37.779 --> 00:29:39.428
But saying, You know one person does it all? It happens I've I've been in that position many times, but it just means there's there's less room for us to think about what it is that we're building and and more just like hey, make this pretty and do the mocks and just

00:29:39.428 --> 00:29:40.677
Right.

00:29:40.677 --> 00:29:43.077
kind of like a lot of throwing over the wall because there's no time.

00:29:43.077 --> 00:29:48.678
There's no time for more

00:29:48.678 --> 00:29:52.128
Right? Yeah, yeah, I love also the the marriage analogy you used.

00:29:52.128 --> 00:29:55.478
Where, like, you know, the the ux guides the ui like they kind of have to hold hands, and it's a partnership.

00:29:55.478 --> 00:29:56.178
They kind of depend on each other. Right? I think.

00:29:56.178 --> 00:30:04.427
Yeah.

00:30:04.427 --> 00:30:15.128
Another thing to help us understand, like what you do is I've always interested in software maybe it's just because I'm a software nerd.

00:30:15.128 --> 00:30:23.328
But I think there's, you know, if you're writing code or you're working in the engine a lot of times, people know, like, I think even some, you know, common gamers know about things like unity and stuff like that right?

00:30:23.328 --> 00:30:29.328
Photoshop, right? Like your average, especially artist types, they know some of the tools that people use to make games.

00:30:29.328 --> 00:30:31.778
But what's some of the software that you use as a ux designer in your day to day and like, are there any that you love, or any that you dread like?

00:30:31.778 --> 00:30:34.178
Yeah.

00:30:34.178 --> 00:30:39.878
We all have those right like tools. We look forward to using it once we don't want to use

00:30:39.878 --> 00:30:46.378
Sure.

00:30:46.378 --> 00:30:49.678
It's understandable

00:30:49.678 --> 00:30:49.977
Oh, actually

00:30:49.977 --> 00:30:57.928
So tools, wise software, specifically, software, wise, we've never really gone completely far away from adobe like Photoshop illustrator, illustrator, adobexd, we still use it.

00:30:57.928 --> 00:30:59.028
Oh, quite often nowadays. Figma is like a lot of folks are using that.

00:30:59.028 --> 00:31:06.428
Hey!

00:31:06.428 --> 00:31:10.078
We use it. I like figma a lot. The their prototyping capabilities are pretty solid.

00:31:10.078 --> 00:31:11.578
Oh!

00:31:11.578 --> 00:31:22.678
However, depending on what? On the type of project that you're working on.

00:31:22.678 --> 00:31:28.278
If something that needs a little more animation, I feel, or or capabilities towards really customizing what, how you can animate certain things.

00:31:28.278 --> 00:31:31.028
Proto I/O

00:31:31.028 --> 00:31:44.278
I really liked using proto I/O on on that side of things there their animation, capabilities.

00:31:44.278 --> 00:31:49.378
Let me do almost almost anything I wanted. Granted I had to create a lot of assets myself in order to so compared, to like something like figma.

00:31:49.378 --> 00:31:52.278
Where you can create pretty much any asset within figma itself.

00:31:52.278 --> 00:31:58.578
You know, if there's a specific icon or anything like that, I could do it.

00:31:58.578 --> 00:32:08.278
There! Proto-o! You can, but it's like kind of kind of clunky.

00:32:08.278 --> 00:32:16.378
But if you already have something created, you just need it to animate a specific way within your prototype, then I feel proto proto.

00:32:16.378 --> 00:32:19.928
-yo can do that a lot better than some of the other things I've seen out there

00:32:19.928 --> 00:32:22.077
Interesting? Is it? Like a key keyframe based animation like tweeting type tool?

00:32:22.077 --> 00:32:26.728
Is that what it's doing to get that done

00:32:26.728 --> 00:32:29.127
Yeah, it feels. Yeah, it feels more like that. Or really, and it also handle handles like state changes.

00:32:29.127 --> 00:32:43.529
Hmm.

00:32:43.529 --> 00:33:00.377
Really, well, so you can set up state changes to function the way animation would like a like a like a keyframes, and that kind of stuff would, I felt, more freedom with it on that side of things.

00:33:00.377 --> 00:33:03.828
But with everything else like layout, setting up styles all of that stuff, like Sigma is really solid, especially if if you really want to set up like a good design system and a style.

00:33:03.828 --> 00:33:09.678
Interesting.

00:33:09.678 --> 00:33:14.678
Sigma is great, like their components, their their ability to switch between different variables within the components, and that kind of thing.

00:33:14.678 --> 00:33:15.228
Interesting. I'll have to look into. Oh, that's all right.

00:33:15.228 --> 00:33:16.528
It's pretty solid. I know a lot of folks. Oh, sorry

00:33:16.528 --> 00:33:24.878
I'll have to look into proto. I I hadn't heard of that one.

00:33:24.878 --> 00:33:26.077
There was describing it. It kind of makes me think of another adobe product from back in the day that the flash with action script I still kind of like.

00:33:26.077 --> 00:33:31.528
Maybe I just don't have enough software awareness these days.

00:33:31.528 --> 00:33:34.429
But I feel like there's a whole still where, like Flash, was such a special thing.

00:33:34.429 --> 00:33:38.129
For a long time where it kind of bridged the gap between.

00:33:38.129 --> 00:33:43.827
Yeah, you could make it to, or you could use it to make a whole game.

00:33:43.827 --> 00:33:48.078
But it was also easy enough to use to where you didn't have to spend weeks or months learning it.

00:33:48.078 --> 00:33:57.029
You could put together some animations pretty quickly, and action script was pretty good, easy to learn.

00:33:57.029 --> 00:33:58.929
Language like it was a nice tool that kind of everyone on the team could at least use in some capacity or be familiar with

00:33:58.929 --> 00:34:01.528
Yeah, it still exists. It's just not called flash anymore.

00:34:01.528 --> 00:34:02.277
Really? Oh, what is it now?

00:34:02.277 --> 00:34:06.328
It's called animate

00:34:06.328 --> 00:34:09.379
Oh, just adobe! Animate, interesting.

00:34:09.379 --> 00:34:09.778
It's sinking, I think, you know, with some updates.

00:34:09.778 --> 00:34:11.978
Just rebranded.

00:34:11.978 --> 00:34:16.828
Oh!

00:34:16.828 --> 00:34:21.278
Yeah, just rebranded. And then a lot of folks in ux use

00:34:21.278 --> 00:34:29.553
Oh, yeah.

00:34:29.553 --> 00:34:32.979
After effects to do like, especially if it's like really complex animations or or behaviors that they feel like a prototype.

00:34:32.979 --> 00:34:37.278
Just, you know, that's created in figma. Just won't be able to accomplish.

00:34:37.278 --> 00:34:44.828
They'll go ahead and do it in in after effects. No problem

00:34:44.828 --> 00:34:56.027
Yeah, I I do just enough editing like, with for this video that we're making this this podcast where I use final cut pro and like, I know how to do just enough.

00:34:56.027 --> 00:35:02.878
But like, you know, people who are actually on Youtube making videos and stuff I always see impressive and you know, animations and things flying around the screen and really tight editing, it's almost always after effects.

00:35:02.878 --> 00:35:07.178
Like when I look into it, it seems to. Yeah, it seems to be the de facto like, make the make things squishy and juicy.

00:35:07.178 --> 00:35:14.379
Things flying around the screen. Oh, I love that

00:35:14.379 --> 00:35:17.832
Yes, and and side note, with figma one of the things that I really like about it is that there's community made plugins and community-made libraries.

00:35:17.832 --> 00:35:28.378
Audible.

00:35:28.378 --> 00:35:34.380
Yeah.

00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:38.178
So, instead of you having to look up, you know the same icon over and over and over on Google, or something like that, or creating it over and over, you just pull it from an existing library, you know, and and that share ability that that almost kind of like crowdsource kind of kind of feel to it like I

00:35:38.178 --> 00:35:45.180
really like, I feel like they're doing something right there.

00:35:45.180 --> 00:35:51.527
That's great. Yeah, I found it so important to like, you know, we we spend so many hours and hours in these tools like, just like, you know, all you'll be like all day.

00:35:51.527 --> 00:35:54.178
I'm just using pigment. Today, I've got all this work to do. And it's like, it's so important that you like that tool, or else you just feel like you're using the worst hammer in the world.

00:35:54.178 --> 00:35:54.377
It's like giving you splitters, and you keep hitting your fingers.

00:35:54.377 --> 00:35:56.977
Yeah.

00:35:56.977 --> 00:36:02.378
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:02.378 --> 00:36:06.828
You're like, I hate this so which parts of your job do you look forward to the most?

00:36:06.828 --> 00:36:10.078
And are there any where you try to minimize it because you don't like it as much like have you thought about?

00:36:10.078 --> 00:36:17.777
If you thought about those parts of your job

00:36:17.777 --> 00:36:18.727
So parts that I like most in my case, I'm an incredibly collaborative ux designer like period.

00:36:18.727 --> 00:36:25.477
Perfect.

00:36:25.477 --> 00:36:32.228
Hmm.

00:36:32.228 --> 00:36:34.279
Love, that

00:36:34.279 --> 00:36:43.978
I I believe in the value of leaning into expertise that is not my own, and and emphasizing and really like oh, the shining like this is our engineer, you you know, but I also expect the same from you know my team.

00:36:43.978 --> 00:36:48.478
So I love doing the sign design sessions and workshops, because we are all in the same room different disciplines, talking about this problem.

00:36:48.478 --> 00:36:56.629
We're trying to tackle together, or this pain point we're trying to tackle together.

00:36:56.629 --> 00:37:01.578
So it's not just about me coming up with the perfect design, because that doesn't really exist.

00:37:01.578 --> 00:37:07.178
It is about trying to identify the most successful solution that we can provide.

00:37:07.178 --> 00:37:17.828
Given what we can design or how we hope to design this.

00:37:17.828 --> 00:37:25.177
The limitations in our tech, the limitations in the hardware, and any stakeholder requirements, etc.

00:37:25.177 --> 00:37:31.828
Hmm.

00:37:31.828 --> 00:37:42.978
And we all come together to kind of like a line on that problem, and we come out of those sessions with a wait forward together rather than you know, like playing this game of telephone through slack.

00:37:42.978 --> 00:37:54.327
And like, well, so and so said this, or like through documentation, that, like someone reads a week later, it's like, no like, let's just bang this out for I mean, yes, it's like 3 h long, 4 h long.

00:37:54.327 --> 00:38:06.177
But let's just like, take time. If this is really important, you know, and I feel it is take time to sit down, think through this problem rather than just assuming we know what the solution is.

00:38:06.177 --> 00:38:07.277
I love doing that. It is so fun, and it it really puts what Youx is and does into my team's hands.

00:38:07.277 --> 00:38:10.577
Hmm.

00:38:10.577 --> 00:38:19.228
And it's not always like well, you know Corely is our ux designer.

00:38:19.228 --> 00:38:27.728
Will? Will you know anything you works related goes to her, and it's like, No, Youx is like a process, a mindset.

00:38:27.728 --> 00:38:35.479
It is from the moment the user hears about. You know, whatever it is that you're building to the moment they use it and decide not to use it anymore.

00:38:35.479 --> 00:38:39.979
You know, it impacts all of it. So the entire team should adopt this mindset.

00:38:39.979 --> 00:38:40.831
Not just corely. You do it, and that's it.

00:38:40.831 --> 00:38:49.928
Right.

00:38:49.928 --> 00:38:54.278
If you really want the product to be successful. And and I just again, it's it's very fun for me.

00:38:54.278 --> 00:38:57.130
Hmm.

00:38:57.130 --> 00:39:01.579
It's also kind of like that teaching aspect like I scratch that itch things that I don't.

00:39:01.579 --> 00:39:03.929
I will I won't say like, Hey, but just kind of like.

00:39:03.929 --> 00:39:10.878
Hmm.

00:39:10.878 --> 00:39:12.978
It's very tedious, it's very tedious I'm in meetings a lot. I mean, so many.

00:39:12.978 --> 00:39:13.578
Yeah.

00:39:13.578 --> 00:39:15.980
Yup, that's a common complaint across all disciplines.

00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:22.628
Right fair.

00:39:22.628 --> 00:39:33.229
Yeah, I've been meetings a lot. And sometimes, like, I, you know, as as an individual contributor, you just kind of like want to do the work.

00:39:33.229 --> 00:39:38.279
But you also understand why you're meeting. But there are days where I'm just like in 8 h meetings, and you know that I know I'm not gonna get any work done there.

00:39:38.279 --> 00:39:38.877
Not something that I hate, but something I didn't expect.

00:39:38.877 --> 00:39:42.228
Hmm! I love it

00:39:42.228 --> 00:39:43.777
Yeah.

00:39:43.777 --> 00:39:48.279
I do a lot of writing like I I write specs.

00:39:48.279 --> 00:39:57.628
I write prds. I write a lot of documentation.

00:39:57.628 --> 00:40:15.580
I'm in excel quite often as well. I did not expect that as a ux designer I thought it was just all gonna be like, you know.

00:40:15.580 --> 00:40:21.229
Push this box to the right spot, you know, and and layout stuff, and but no, I do like a lot of written explanations of of behaviors and and used cases and edge cases and all of it.

00:40:21.229 --> 00:40:31.028
Let me think what else? And then the tedious part.

00:40:31.028 --> 00:40:34.678
Sometimes you go down rabbit holes, or you go like you know, you tunnel vision on on text.

00:40:34.678 --> 00:40:35.678
And is this the right font? Let me move this up just a little bit.

00:40:35.678 --> 00:40:39.378
Oh!

00:40:39.378 --> 00:40:42.828
Let me move this down just a little bit. Now the negative space is just not working for me.

00:40:42.828 --> 00:40:49.078
I have to like, move this link. Just a little bit, maybe make this bigger.

00:40:49.078 --> 00:40:51.577
And then you see, like my entire file, has, like 20 different variations of like the same panel.

00:40:51.577 --> 00:40:59.128
And I just don't know which one to go with.

00:40:59.128 --> 00:41:06.477
So you know, when when that happens, I just reach out to somebody else and like, Hey, I'm I'm too close to the canvas right now.

00:41:06.477 --> 00:41:09.528
I need your input, because this is driving me crazy.

00:41:09.528 --> 00:41:17.378
And I'm spending too much time on it.

00:41:17.378 --> 00:41:21.228
Yes.

00:41:21.228 --> 00:41:24.628
I think that's great. I love your your collaborative nature, Andrea's always saying a part of her job is, she's kind of like at the center of this, like swirl of other teams where you know the programmers. And the designers like a lot of times they're not great

00:41:24.628 --> 00:41:27.128
Yeah.

00:41:27.128 --> 00:41:29.078
at communicating, but it all comes down to the ux, and so she'll have to be the one who facilitates that communication.

00:41:29.078 --> 00:41:30.528
Yeah.

00:41:30.528 --> 00:41:42.378
That communication. Yeah. Same. That's been my experience as well.

00:41:42.378 --> 00:41:46.027
Like. And it's really interesting, because when you think about ux, and you think about when you're playing a game, you don't think, oh, this has really great ux!

00:41:46.027 --> 00:41:48.178
It. It's not like. It's not like, you know.

00:41:48.178 --> 00:41:50.278
I mean, you see the menus and that kind of stuff.

00:41:50.278 --> 00:41:55.278
And you're like, Oh, yeah, the Ui, if you, if you know what that is.

00:41:55.278 --> 00:42:10.479
But really like the heroes of you know, a game is is the art.

00:42:10.479 --> 00:42:16.279
It's the game design. The the mechanics, like all these, like very visual things that you forget that there are also experienced designers like on these teams.

00:42:16.279 --> 00:42:25.028
So we're kind of like these unsung heroes because we're able to make sure that everyone is aligned.

00:42:25.028 --> 00:42:31.829
Right.

00:42:31.829 --> 00:42:34.077
You know, engineering is aligned, and game designers, and everyone is talking to each other because it impacts the experience so heavily, and then that's where, like that misunderstanding of like what ux is goes back to like.

00:42:34.077 --> 00:42:37.278
Well, it's ui ux, because ui is visual.

00:42:37.278 --> 00:42:39.879
You. It's it's I can teach, you know.

00:42:39.879 --> 00:42:42.879
I can touch it. I can feel it. I can see it versus ux is kind of like.

00:42:42.879 --> 00:42:44.478
Oh!

00:42:44.478 --> 00:42:48.628
Right? Yeah, it's like, it's like being in water.

00:42:48.628 --> 00:42:51.978
You. You like. The water is warm, but you're not thinking about that cause you're doing something else.

00:42:51.978 --> 00:42:52.628
Yeah.

00:42:52.628 --> 00:42:54.728
But like the atmosphere is excellent. Yeah, that's a great point.

00:42:54.728 --> 00:42:57.479
And it's like hard to convey in a screenshot.

00:42:57.479 --> 00:43:02.528
You know you can see the ui, but you like that.

00:43:02.528 --> 00:43:07.578
Might that ui might be awful to use once you start trying to actually use it. But the screenshot sure is pretty.

00:43:07.578 --> 00:43:13.778
Hi! Oh, no! No! Go ahead!

00:43:13.778 --> 00:43:21.877
And the other thing is oh, I'm so sorry! My last point, I guess, is a lot of times when folks ask me like, well, what did you do?

00:43:21.877 --> 00:43:29.377
I'm like, well, well, I did this, but please understand that it was a collaborative, you know.

00:43:29.377 --> 00:43:35.728
Approach, or or a collaborative design thing. So there's pieces of ui.

00:43:35.728 --> 00:43:39.427
Are you? I designer? And things that they came forward with, and there's a little bit of like what I did.

00:43:39.427 --> 00:43:42.828
And you know the game designer like it's it's not just mine. I can't.

00:43:42.828 --> 00:43:45.878
I can't point at one screen and be like, yeah, I did all of that.

00:43:45.878 --> 00:44:00.130
No like it's it's

00:44:00.130 --> 00:44:06.328
It, it would be a disservice to like the rest of my team, because, you know, the input is so valuable from them from their expertise and and that's why, like a lot of times in my portfolios.

00:44:06.328 --> 00:44:12.778
And and just explaining to folks like what I do, and actually being able to show them an example of what I do.

00:44:12.778 --> 00:44:14.277
Yeah.

00:44:14.277 --> 00:44:20.279
It's like, Yeah, that's, I mean, that's kind of hard to really say, like, specifically, this

00:44:20.279 --> 00:44:26.428
Yeah, what advice would you give for folks who are interested in doing what you do

00:44:26.428 --> 00:44:30.878
What's a good like starting point, or like, do?

00:44:30.878 --> 00:44:32.727
Is it degree required these days, or is it highly recommended, or what level or like?

00:44:32.727 --> 00:44:36.727
It.

00:44:36.727 --> 00:44:41.328
Should you be more networking, or more applying? Or or how did you get your entry? You know

00:44:41.328 --> 00:44:45.028
Oh, wow!

00:44:45.028 --> 00:44:47.177
So for me. I I do have a masters in video game development with a focus on uux, because I come from a graphic design background.

00:44:47.177 --> 00:44:48.577
Hmm.

00:44:48.577 --> 00:44:49.729
And I do have a bachelors in graphic design.

00:44:49.729 --> 00:44:58.077
Wow!

00:44:58.077 --> 00:45:07.778
So in my case, like I do have like that, more formal like you don't you don't really meet a lot of ux designers that actually have a Master's Degree.

00:45:07.778 --> 00:45:28.179
A lot of folks go to boot camps which I have my feelings about boot camps more so it feels very templatized.

00:45:28.179 --> 00:45:37.178
Their approach, and I think it's missing a lot of like very key ingredients into like, why, we do ux it just kind of like leans into the visual side of things, and not the not the the strategy side or not as much so if you do go to a boot

00:45:37.178 --> 00:45:48.428
Camp. Keep that in mind, and try to supplement your learnings with with other types of resources, or find a mentor.

00:45:48.428 --> 00:45:56.478
Because if you just lean into into the boot camp, you're not gonna feel like you're getting your money's worth, especially since the lot of them are like, really like really expensive

00:45:56.478 --> 00:45:59.229
Interesting, yeah, I've heard that that the maybe not recommended, like, you know, unfair to have a big umbrella, you know, probably, but it seems sounds like in general, maybe maybe not.

00:45:59.229 --> 00:46:02.077
The path to go. I see

00:46:02.077 --> 00:46:03.728
Yeah. No. I know a lot of game designers that have become ux designers.

00:46:03.728 --> 00:46:06.878
Hmm.

00:46:06.878 --> 00:46:08.778
Really.

00:46:08.778 --> 00:46:11.777
They transition a lot of engineers as well, because they understand, like the functional side of things, like the person I'm working with right now.

00:46:11.777 --> 00:46:18.378
She's an engineer. She came from an engineering background.

00:46:18.378 --> 00:46:21.727
She has her degree in engineering, but she just found that she has a lot more fun.

00:46:21.727 --> 00:46:28.228
You, you know, doing ux, and she has a knack for it.

00:46:28.228 --> 00:46:34.278
So I'm mentoring her up, and she's been doing like great work as a ux designer.

00:46:34.278 --> 00:46:53.978
I also previously worked with another game designer that wanted to become ux.

00:46:53.978 --> 00:46:58.278
I've met producers that became ux designers because in their projects they ended up finding themselves kind of like writing a lot of specs themselves for the rest of the team, and because producers are already kind of like the glue between teams.

00:46:58.278 --> 00:47:00.327
They already understand. Like all the different, like, what all the different departments are working on.

00:47:00.327 --> 00:47:03.528
Right.

00:47:03.528 --> 00:47:08.128
So they big fell into it without realizing it.

00:47:08.128 --> 00:47:14.678
I don't think there's one way to be a ux designer.

00:47:14.678 --> 00:47:21.677
To be honest, a lot of folks come from other disciplines, not other disciplines, other industries.

00:47:21.677 --> 00:47:27.079
Wow!

00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:29.479
So you know, apps web health, you know they they maybe were working on some sort of like health tech app or something, and they just didn't think about games.

00:47:29.479 --> 00:47:30.128
Right.

00:47:30.128 --> 00:47:33.978
And then they're like, Oh, wait! This is like, actually way, more fun.

00:47:33.978 --> 00:47:34.828
Oh, that's that's always the path. In the games.

00:47:34.828 --> 00:47:35.278
Let me do this instead. Yeah.

00:47:35.278 --> 00:47:36.977
It's like a black hole. The gravity sucks people in.

00:47:36.977 --> 00:47:42.130
Yeah.

00:47:42.130 --> 00:47:52.478
Because it's like, like Andrea had worked for a consulting company, and they would work.

00:47:52.478 --> 00:47:53.379
Yeah.

00:47:53.379 --> 00:48:02.977
We're working on like Denise stuff, which is, you know, some people really love dentistry, but, like your average person probably has, like a negative connotation to it, because you just picture the pain and the the like.

00:48:02.977 --> 00:48:05.128
Yes.

00:48:05.128 --> 00:48:11.929
I don't want to go, and all that and then you compare that to like hey? A new Disney game, and she's like signed me up, speaking of which I know people who are on the podcast and only listening won't be able to see it.

00:48:11.929 --> 00:48:14.228
But they can appreciate the words. You. Your wall behind you is covered with Disney.

00:48:14.228 --> 00:48:16.577
All of them are Disney, Pennsylvania.

00:48:16.577 --> 00:48:21.628
Oh, those all disney pins! Wow! Very impressive!

00:48:21.628 --> 00:48:27.627
It's amazing.

00:48:27.627 --> 00:48:27.727
The majority. The great majority are authentic pins, some of the Soca pins are fan made just because there aren't very many of socapens that are licensed.

00:48:27.727 --> 00:48:32.428
Hmm.

00:48:32.428 --> 00:48:36.628
But yeah, and I have way more than this in

00:48:36.628 --> 00:48:38.828
And in, and boxes in the attic, or whatever in the bids

00:48:38.828 --> 00:48:41.178
In the bins. Yeah, in the bins. And and every week more arrive.

00:48:41.178 --> 00:48:51.429
But yeah, like I, I've been doing this since.

00:48:51.429 --> 00:48:56.979
Just so. Decades. Decades. Now, wow.

00:48:56.979 --> 00:49:00.728
Oh, God! Since, like 2,000! 2,001! Yep, and I think the collection is very closely approaching, like 2,500 individual pins.

00:49:00.728 --> 00:49:01.879
Very impressed.

00:49:01.879 --> 00:49:09.728
I have a lot, some of them. Some of them are very limited.

00:49:09.728 --> 00:49:14.478
Addition. So maybe I think the lowest edition size I might have. I don't think it's on here

00:49:14.478 --> 00:49:17.280
That's very cool.

00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:25.928
Yeah, I think, the lowest I might have is like Ellie 100.

00:49:25.928 --> 00:49:29.578
So like they only made a 100 pins of it. Yep, yeah.

00:49:29.578 --> 00:49:34.428
Oh, wow! 100 in the whole world. Collectors. Item, Disney is such a a beast now.

00:49:34.428 --> 00:49:37.629
Yes.

00:49:37.629 --> 00:49:41.077
They own everything in the world you had mentioned earlier a marvel project, and you know also you you work with a pokemon. Go!

00:49:41.077 --> 00:49:54.229
What has it been like with you? Cause like a lot of people I talk to?

00:49:54.229 --> 00:50:01.629
You know I I work in indie games that no one in the world has heard of, and even a lot of people I talk to work companies which are even medium or largest but still it you know they just do not have the mind share of something like pokemon like a worldwide

00:50:01.629 --> 00:50:08.779
Phenomenon. Marvel never been bigger like. What has it been like for you, working with with those big names

00:50:08.779 --> 00:50:15.478
I think, on the marble side, especially like it's been a pretty easy like marvel.

00:50:15.478 --> 00:50:17.829
The team that I we worked with was actually like, yeah, like, we trust you, you know, like to us.

00:50:17.829 --> 00:50:24.778
Cool.

00:50:24.778 --> 00:50:32.828
So even on the art side, maybe they were like a little more like, okay, this character can't look that way, or this character can't have.

00:50:32.828 --> 00:50:36.777
You know a specific item, because, you know, there's guides around their characters and and the narrative around their characters.

00:50:36.777 --> 00:50:44.078
Right the brand guide. Hmm!

00:50:44.078 --> 00:50:55.527
So on that side. Yes, yes, they are very like. Make sure you follow this, or don't stray too far from it, but when it comes to gain design they're like, I mean, we, I mean, yeah, we have a bunch of games out there.

00:50:55.527 --> 00:51:01.478
But we trust you as the developer for this to ensure that, like the game design that you're you're doing, or the mechanics, or the experience, etc.

00:51:01.478 --> 00:51:02.378
Like fits with your brand and our brand, you know. So so!

00:51:02.378 --> 00:51:13.228
Right.

00:51:13.228 --> 00:51:18.477
I never ran into issues or any sort of like. Well, you can't do this, never that's that hasn't been my experience.

00:51:18.477 --> 00:51:23.978
One of the really really awesome things that happened this past summer.

00:51:23.978 --> 00:51:26.978
No.

00:51:26.978 --> 00:51:34.328
When we are. We announced the game we were at, and that's when it got like announced in just seeing that like on the screen, and just be like, Oh, my God!

00:51:34.328 --> 00:51:39.828
And then behind me I heard people say, Wait, they're making a marvel game.

00:51:39.828 --> 00:51:44.278
Folks are really excited about it, and and you know that little like oh, my God!

00:51:44.278 --> 00:51:53.229
That's great!

00:51:53.229 --> 00:52:02.678
Yes, I worked on this feeling, but they're with it also comes like a lot of pressure, because again, it is like such a widely recognized brand.

00:52:02.678 --> 00:52:03.727
There the users that like, you know, I think of our folks that really really know there's stuff around marble.

00:52:03.727 --> 00:52:07.978
Right.

00:52:07.978 --> 00:52:09.628
So they're expecting. You know they have very high expectations. Yes.

00:52:09.628 --> 00:52:11.227
Mega fans. You get the details wrong. They will know, and they will mention it.

00:52:11.227 --> 00:52:13.928
And they will point it out, yeah.

00:52:13.928 --> 00:52:16.428
Yep.

00:52:16.428 --> 00:52:32.879
They they will, they cannot help but mention it. It's like part of their they keep their nerd card if they mention it to you right

00:52:32.879 --> 00:52:36.578
Exactly like it's with me, and and you know, like Melissa and Melissa is like my favorite character, like my favorite villain, and and Alice in Wonderland, and if one of these pins looks just a little off, I notice it, and then I question even myself, like do I really want that PIN cause your face

00:52:36.578 --> 00:52:40.228
is not the right color. It's not like the right perspective.

00:52:40.228 --> 00:52:41.778
It doesn't look like her. So it's kind of the same with this.

00:52:41.778 --> 00:52:45.778
Right.

00:52:45.778 --> 00:52:49.427
You know this game where you have to make sure, like, okay, like, is this what they're expecting from?

00:52:49.427 --> 00:52:50.727
A game like this

00:52:50.727 --> 00:52:54.327
You do that? You? Yeah, you do that yourself with your own things.

00:52:54.327 --> 00:52:55.528
And that way you know that your players are doing that with your games.

00:52:55.528 --> 00:52:58.428
Exactly.

00:52:58.428 --> 00:53:00.577
So if you get something wrong they will. Hmm! I love that.

00:53:00.577 --> 00:53:12.879
They'll they'll point it out. No, point it out

00:53:12.879 --> 00:53:14.177
That's such a different world than where I come from, cause like I was just reading some advice about making trailers for indie games, and they're like, Cut your name, cut your title just go directly to Gameplay, because no one's heard of you no one knows what it is you just need to excite them immediately with

00:53:14.177 --> 00:53:18.278
Yeah.

00:53:18.278 --> 00:53:20.978
Like action, happening versus the some of the Ips you make work with.

00:53:20.978 --> 00:53:26.878
Like, build up and like cinematics. Yeah.

00:53:26.878 --> 00:53:33.278
It's like you should show marvel. Yeah, like, begin with marvel, and then go from there right like the opposite of what I've did

00:53:33.278 --> 00:53:38.978
If it, if it makes you any feel any better kind of going back to like the guidelines, especially for Mobile.

00:53:38.978 --> 00:53:47.229
So developing, for mobile, very different from in very different process.

00:53:47.229 --> 00:53:52.828
Wise from from developing, for console. We're console or at least a lot of Aaa games.

00:53:52.828 --> 00:53:55.578
They have, like a more waterfall, fall style of of development.

00:53:55.578 --> 00:53:59.928
Hmm.

00:53:59.928 --> 00:54:03.828
We are very agile. So so we run through sprints, and usually our sprints are 2 weeks, and we have to finish something in 2 weeks, you know.

00:54:03.828 --> 00:54:23.529
So it's very quick. But going back to my point.

00:54:23.529 --> 00:54:30.877
But Mobile also has a lot of guidelines that we have to follow, especially if we want to put something on like for the app store, like, you know, for apple, and they usually send us like this long list of like, well, if you want to put a game on our app store these are the things

00:54:30.877 --> 00:54:31.878
Oh!

00:54:31.878 --> 00:54:45.028
You have to meet and make sure. Your experience includes or doesn't include, and one of them on.

00:54:45.028 --> 00:54:49.878
There is. You have to ensure that your player or the user, or anyone can have a meaningful experience in your game without having to create an account

00:54:49.878 --> 00:54:59.429
Okay, that's an interesting requirement. Yeah.

00:54:59.429 --> 00:55:02.177
And yeah, and and that's kind of weird, because usually we'll like the first within the first 30 s of like, you know, downloading this game, we want people to be able to create accounts.

00:55:02.177 --> 00:55:07.328
Because we wanna

00:55:07.328 --> 00:55:09.529
Retention and whatnot. Right? Yeah.

00:55:09.529 --> 00:55:17.478
Do things, I will. Exactly. We want to measure like how well the game is doing, or how well certain features are doing.

00:55:17.478 --> 00:55:20.378
Yeah.

00:55:20.378 --> 00:55:23.077
But the only way we can really do that is, if if folks create an account somehow, or link the account to somewhere.

00:55:23.077 --> 00:55:36.278
So so we're not. We can't measure.

00:55:36.278 --> 00:55:41.377
Then those first 30 s, or the fatui. You know the tutorials, or anything like that, because this requirement is now telling us like, Hey, so yeah, you'd need to let them download and immediately.

00:55:41.377 --> 00:55:42.227
Hmm.

00:55:42.227 --> 00:55:44.627
Experience your game without setting any any limits. You're just like, Oh, my God!

00:55:44.627 --> 00:55:45.277
Wow!

00:55:45.277 --> 00:55:47.727
How do I do that? So in in that sense it's a little different.

00:55:47.727 --> 00:55:49.877
I I don't know from

00:55:49.877 --> 00:55:59.278
That's a big one. Yeah, that touches ux.

00:55:59.278 --> 00:56:02.627
Yeah.

00:56:02.627 --> 00:56:10.328
That would touch how you architect the game. You would need to have some kind of guest like not quite a user yet, but you have retained some information about them and transfer that to an account if they choose to create one like changes everything doesn't it

00:56:10.328 --> 00:56:20.177
And then, if something happens that within those first 30 s that user is like, Nope, I don't like this, and just kind of like, you know, install the app or whatever.

00:56:20.177 --> 00:56:20.227
There's no way for us to know, because we we we don't have the information saved with no account was created.

00:56:20.227 --> 00:56:25.477
Right.

00:56:25.477 --> 00:56:27.528
Interesting.

00:56:27.528 --> 00:56:30.027
No id was created. So we we can't measure like how well those first 30 s do

00:56:30.027 --> 00:56:33.678
It's

00:56:33.678 --> 00:56:34.628
Yeah.

00:56:34.628 --> 00:56:41.977
That's so fastening, cause I never would have expected that coming from the brand side, but it's it's part of it's part of the experience you wouldn't like.

00:56:41.977 --> 00:56:46.427
I you know, just talking it out you wouldn't want people to experience like a a pay wall or a headache if they're dealing with, you know, spider-man or something like that.

00:56:46.427 --> 00:56:49.677
Exactly. No, no, not at all.

00:56:49.677 --> 00:56:52.027
Those are not feelings we want to associate with Spider-man spider-man's friendly, friendly, accessible neighborhood spider-man.

00:56:52.027 --> 00:56:53.278
Exactly. Yeah.

00:56:53.278 --> 00:56:58.727
And you want to be able to use Spiderman or anything like that.

00:56:58.727 --> 00:57:05.377
And just in case like this, isn't, I guess, a point of clarification

00:57:05.377 --> 00:57:07.627
All game and tech companies do this. This is not specific to any place that I've worked at.

00:57:07.627 --> 00:57:12.277
Sure. Yeah.

00:57:12.277 --> 00:57:16.577
Like it's not. I'm not revealing any sort of like special secrets or anything like that at all.

00:57:16.577 --> 00:57:27.428
By hands, are clean.

00:57:27.428 --> 00:57:31.977
There. Yes, please, this is there are holding departments dedicated to understanding how a game, a product, a digital product, is doing and trying to measure.

00:57:31.977 --> 00:57:49.928
You know retention, how many people are staying? How many people are leaving?

00:57:49.928 --> 00:57:56.227
Why did they leave, like all of those things? Because it helps us, then improve the products and improve the games makes for generally better experiences, like there's there are companies out there that are very data driven approach to design.

00:57:56.227 --> 00:57:57.628
Yeah.

00:57:57.628 --> 00:58:03.427
And as a ux designer, you take into account those data points as well like, if they drop off, where did they drop off?

00:58:03.427 --> 00:58:15.077
What was the pain point that they ran into that? Make them drop off and you help the team identify that

00:58:15.077 --> 00:58:17.377
Right? Yeah, that could be critical information, right? Like, no one's seeing the part of the game that you're working the most on, because, you know, you didn't realize if there's a part in the flow where people are dropping off because of the reason that was unexpected, or something right?

00:58:17.377 --> 00:58:20.177
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:20.177 --> 00:58:25.028
Yeah, well, I I got one more question for you.

00:58:25.028 --> 00:58:27.877
Okay.

00:58:27.877 --> 00:58:34.077
I thought it might be fun to and end on a fun one, so how about some of your favorite games?

00:58:34.077 --> 00:58:38.677
If if you want, you could like, put yourself in the headspace of like, you know, it just snowed, and you're in a cabin, and you have electricity.

00:58:38.677 --> 00:58:40.528
But you can't go anywhere for 3 weeks. And you've got, you know, your 3, your 3 staple games.

00:58:40.528 --> 00:58:42.577
This is kind of a pitch, but you know you could do it.

00:58:42.577 --> 00:58:47.928
However you what

00:58:47.928 --> 00:58:49.528
So I mean favorite game ever I've I've talked about this quite a lot, and and why?

00:58:49.528 --> 00:58:53.378
Really.

00:58:53.378 --> 00:58:53.978
And I think I even did like a whole breakdown and everything

00:58:53.978 --> 00:58:56.628
Oh, okay, but I'll I'll link to that if you've got.

00:58:56.628 --> 00:58:59.828
If that's online somewhere, I'll put all this stuff in the show notes.

00:58:59.828 --> 00:59:00.328
Oh, I'll I'll find it so. I love journey like for me.

00:59:00.328 --> 00:59:04.130
Great, oh, cool.

00:59:04.130 --> 00:59:06.828
Hmm.

00:59:06.828 --> 00:59:12.478
Experiential games in the sense of like. There is no ui.

00:59:12.478 --> 00:59:17.527
There is the the narrative is very loose and and open to interpretation.

00:59:17.527 --> 00:59:23.878
It is just me, my feelings, I I really like games like that.

00:59:23.878 --> 00:59:28.228
Sky, which is its successor, touches on a lot of those things.

00:59:28.228 --> 00:59:31.178
Obviously, there's a lot more. You want a lot more features and things you can do in the game.

00:59:31.178 --> 00:59:37.878
But but the

00:59:37.878 --> 00:59:43.178
The things that made journey journey. You can definitely see it in sky, and it translates.

00:59:43.178 --> 00:59:50.528
And they went beyond that, you know. Now you connect with others, and there's different ways that you can connect with others.

00:59:50.528 --> 00:59:51.128
So I would definitely replay journey if I was in that cabin.

00:59:51.128 --> 01:00:01.328
Awesome.

01:00:01.328 --> 01:00:01.478
Scott, and then I also really like like twitchy games, or, you know, beat them up.

01:00:01.478 --> 01:00:05.278
Oh!

01:00:05.278 --> 01:00:11.229
Oh! What fun!

01:00:11.229 --> 01:00:12.080
I like button mashing. I I like yes, I you know no strategy here, no, no blocks are per fairies, only only button mash.

01:00:12.080 --> 01:00:17.377
Just hit the a button quickly.

01:00:17.377 --> 01:00:21.278
Love it

01:00:21.278 --> 01:00:21.928
Oh, cool!

01:00:21.928 --> 01:00:29.382
Yeah. Pit. Button number go high. So by Anetta bayonetta, I'm replaying the second one right now.

01:00:29.382 --> 01:00:29.978
Yeah.

01:00:29.978 --> 01:00:34.228
So cause I wanna play the third. But you know, time adulting doesn't really allow me dedicated time for it.

01:00:34.228 --> 01:00:35.328
So if oh, yeah, but I love it.

01:00:35.328 --> 01:00:39.428
Those games are always so long to all triple a games. They're like 40 h a gameplay.

01:00:39.428 --> 01:00:48.228
And you're like, I just wanna get it done. Yeah, yeah.

01:00:48.228 --> 01:00:49.328
Good choice.

01:00:49.328 --> 01:00:56.677
But I love it, though, like I love, I love the Bayonetta series so definitely that and Hades, I would definitely want to finish it, because not replay, but like finish it.

01:00:56.677 --> 01:01:01.677
And then games that are way more chill, but also the strategy focus.

01:01:01.677 --> 01:01:05.629
Let me span.

01:01:05.629 --> 01:01:10.628
Oh!

01:01:10.628 --> 01:01:10.778
So Wingspan is so Wingspan is a board game that they created a digital version, for on steam and switch.

01:01:10.778 --> 01:01:23.781
Hmm.

01:01:23.781 --> 01:01:24.628
I think it is an engine it's like an engine creator with a bird theme around it, a bird casing around it.

01:01:24.628 --> 01:01:28.379
Wow! That's so interesting.

01:01:28.379 --> 01:01:43.979
You're just, you know you're you're given this random deck.

01:01:43.979 --> 01:01:45.578
You don't even deck build at all. You are given these random cards, and the cards themselves build upon each other to kind of like operate almost like if you love systems, you will love wingspan.

01:01:45.578 --> 01:01:53.129
I do love systems.

01:01:53.129 --> 01:01:54.029
Oh! Close to my heart I still in my closet back here.

01:01:54.029 --> 01:01:58.178
Yes, and and then magic the gathering. Because, yes, because yeah, I I'm

01:01:58.178 --> 01:02:01.178
I've got a bunch of ancient magic cards. I will never get rid of

01:02:01.178 --> 01:02:12.678
Oh, you could like see them

01:02:12.678 --> 01:02:16.128
Yes, mine are all like right there. Yeah. But but I've been playing magic for almost as long as I've been been collecting the only thing is I kinda need to play with somebody, because I I like I like physical magic.

01:02:16.128 --> 01:02:16.978
I'm I'm with you. Yeah, I never got into any of the digital games.

01:02:16.978 --> 01:02:21.677
I don't. Yeah, right?

01:02:21.677 --> 01:02:24.678
I need to be able to, plus like something about playing with friends versus any kind of online.

01:02:24.678 --> 01:02:27.878
Like I feel like I'm wasting their time when I play with friends.

01:02:27.878 --> 01:02:28.579
Yeah.

01:02:28.579 --> 01:02:30.879
I play so slowly and casually, they'll put a card down, and these days I don't know any.

01:02:30.879 --> 01:02:32.879
Back in the day I knew every card you put down and do the art.

01:02:32.879 --> 01:02:36.078
I could tell you to flavor text, and do everything these days.

01:02:36.078 --> 01:02:36.578
Yeah. No.

01:02:36.578 --> 01:02:40.678
It's impossible. It's too. So every card that goes down I'm like, Hmm!

01:02:40.678 --> 01:02:46.829
Let me read it real quick. What does this do? And how are you like combining it?

01:02:46.829 --> 01:02:48.179
I want to understand. No, yeah, like I, I play really casually, as well

01:02:48.179 --> 01:02:50.029
Take my time and read it. Yeah, yeah, I'll ask questions, like, what you could use these together. Huh? How many cards you have in your hand?

01:02:50.029 --> 01:02:53.278
And hmm! And then I'll start, you know that.

01:02:53.278 --> 01:02:55.878
Change the subject or whatever, but, like people would hate that online

01:02:55.878 --> 01:03:16.978
Yeah, no, no, no. One of the companies I used to work at.

01:03:16.978 --> 01:03:23.378
We had a Friday at every single Friday we play magic with a group at, you know, at the company, like we would drink beers, order some food, and just play magic for like 3 h straight into the evening, and I really miss that because we had like a really good mix of people like some folks were very very

01:03:23.378 --> 01:03:26.027
New to magic. So we were teaching them. Others have competed like, and actually one competitions.

01:03:26.027 --> 01:03:33.277
Oh, wow! Tournaments and stuff. Wow!

01:03:33.277 --> 01:03:45.729
Yeah, and and they like rank their decks. And like all this stuff and and we have to be like, Yo, you gotta sorry you got to bring it down a little bit like it's it's it's a little too intense.

01:03:45.729 --> 01:03:48.528
And we're not. We're playing casual here, and then others that are really more about teaching or or just super relaxed like, Hey, can I like Redo this because I actually did it in the wrong. Yeah, yeah.

01:03:48.528 --> 01:03:50.728
Yeah.

01:03:50.728 --> 01:03:54.836
Go for it. Don't worry about it like like it's just good times.

01:03:54.836 --> 01:04:01.228
Goodbyes, that's it, and and and I miss that

01:04:01.228 --> 01:04:01.278
Totally get that. Yeah, I I play pretty loose with my friends we'll be like, just keep shuffling until your first hand. You're happy with like, that's our it over the years.

01:04:01.278 --> 01:04:03.078
Exactly.

01:04:03.078 --> 01:04:04.828
It got more and more loose. It used to be pretty like.

01:04:04.828 --> 01:04:07.828
Oh, well, you get one roof up that these days.

01:04:07.828 --> 01:04:12.983
I'm like if you don't like your first hand, you might have a miserable game.

01:04:12.983 --> 01:04:14.978
You might get no land like that just happens right? So like, if you like, your first hand, I like my first hand.

01:04:14.978 --> 01:04:16.429
Yeah, yeah.

01:04:16.429 --> 01:04:27.278
We're gonna have a great game. Yeah, casual and friendly.

01:04:27.278 --> 01:04:33.429
Well, this has been great. This has been educational. We are learning about Ux, and I will put a link to all of your great stuff in the show notes.

01:04:33.429 --> 01:04:40.328
If everybody can find that stuff. And yeah, thanks so much for joining us today.

01:04:40.328 --> 01:04:45.728
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.