AgoristRadio/gist:5803075

## gistfile1.txt
<BenderCoin> I was wondering if anyone knew if 'change' addresses are reused to receive change? or are new change addresses\
 created when they are needed. I could not find anything on this with some searching.
<BenderCoin> The reason this is important is if someone uses a wallet to send btc to a mix service, then sends it back to t\
he same wallet, then spends it, if the new spend can use an old change address, then the mix service 'clean coins' have now\
 been linked with this old change address.
<gmaxwell> BenderCoin: they are not reused.
<Mylon> Someone with more knowledge of the code will need to confirm / elaborate on this, but from what I understood, is th\
at they by default always generate new addresses
<Mylon> Though ofc this is wallet specific
<BenderCoin> gmaxwell, so your response was in regards to bitcoin-qt then.
<Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: not that you should use mixing services..
<BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, what do you dislike about mixing services?
<gmaxwell> BenderCoin: Yes.
<BenderCoin> thanks gmaxwell, Mylon, much appreciated.
<gmaxwell> BenderCoin: they sound like a great way to rob people.
<Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: using them is probably criminal money laundry in most places, plus risky
<Mylon> BenderCoin: I'm not to fond of using mixing services either, as it gives criminals an easy way to launder money
<gmaxwell> Mylon: I think you misunderstand the intention of laundering money but thats not here nor there.
<Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: isn't the "intention"/definition of laundry defined as "hiding the source of money"?
<BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, no, its 'hiding the source of money obtained or involved in crime'
<Mylon> the same idea I had about laundering money
<BenderCoin> "The process of taking the proceeds of criminal activity and making them appear legal."
<Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: I'm not aware of the laws specifying that it has to have been involved in crime
<BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, every money laundering law is specifically about that, so you don't need to look far.
<Mylon> Have to Agree with Luke-Jr there, Government won't really care whether its involved in a crime or not, they just wa\
nt to be able to track the money, and thus come down hard on any mixing service
<Mylon> its all about taxes :)
<gmaxwell> ...
<BenderCoin> well they won't crack down on a mixing service because of it laundering money, if anything it would be because\
 of it being an MSB.
<BenderCoin> I bow out as this is bitcoin-dev and  I appreciate the tech answer on change addresses. power to you guys. tha\
nks
<gmaxwell> In any case, "mixing services" are generally a bad idea regardless of any concerns about their regulatory standi\
ng.
<Mylon> ^^
<BenderCoin> gmaxwell, have you written on this already on bitcoin talk?
<handle> there's always bitcoin fog
<handle> suuuper risky to put it in and mix
<handle> but once it's out you're clear
<Mylon> to follow up on the original question, would there be any benifit on re-using change addresses
<gmaxwell> They hand funds over to anonymous third parties who can steal them... and if the third parties _aren't_ anonymou\
s then they really can't do a good job of keeping their logs secret.  Plus you end up conflating your txn with the kind of \
people who think they need mixing services.
<handle> ^
<handle> that too
<Luke-Jr> Mylon: addresses (in general) should only ever be used once
<gmaxwell> Well, I suppose its likely the case that the latter concern is moot, actual criminals are probably smart enough \
to not touch something like that.
<gmaxwell> :P
<BenderCoin> gmaxwell, thanks
<handle> all you're really doing is mixing your dirty money in with other peoples' dirty money

Other Links to Comments by Luke Jr related to this topic:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/3076/3384
"Bitcoin is not anonymous. Don't expect it to be."

http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/09/29
15:17 	Crazy_man 	Luke-Jr: you dont like the id of anonymous donations through bitcoins
15:17 	Luke-Jr 	Crazy_man: anonymous generally means laundering, which is a crime
15:18 	Luke-Jr 	so it doesn't make sense to have a rule against illegal activity
15:18 	Crazy_man 	for it to be laundering, money has to be dirty
15:18 	Crazy_man 	in the first place
15:18 	Luke-Jr 	nope
15:18 	Crazy_man 	like money from drug sales
15:18 	Luke-Jr 	laundering is concealing the source of it, period, AFAIK
15:19 	sipa 	still, anonimity is not a crime
15:19 	sipa 	privacy is a very basic right
15:19 	Luke-Jr 	sipa: the line between privacy and laundry is blurry :<

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118112.0;wap2
[13:23] <agent8423> when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:26] <Luke-Jr> agent8423: Bitcoin is just cash. AML laws are for financial instutition
[13:26] <agent8423> we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] <@jgarzik> Luke-Jr: bitcoins are digital messages, not cash :)
[13:26] <kjj_> agent8423: math is math.  congress can't change math.
[13:27] <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'm simplifying :p

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.170;wap2
"He filed a DMCA takedown notice on Solidcoin. While I never used Solidcoin and heard bad things about it, I think it's wrong. Bitcoin is strong because it minimally relies on government, and we shouldn't increase it's dependence on government."

(07:12:40 PM) luke-jr: this idiot is overlooking the fact that Bitcoin was designed with the "banking model" in the long run

(09:56:10 AM) onelineproof: just want to throw in that I also disagree with sending DMCA notices. We are the Bitcoin community. We must not be reliant on the government to solve our problems.
(09:57:50 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: I am pro-government.
(09:58:26 AM) onelineproof: ok but we should be able to operate independently of government. Thats one of the main points of bitcoin.
(09:58:58 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: SolidCoin is not Bitcoin

(03:59:22 PM) olp: bitcoin is beyond laws, we dont need laws to keep bitcoin working
(03:59:37 PM) luke-jr: olp: fail

(03:57:20 PM) bluefirecorp: If I performed a 51% attack on bitcoin, and totally crashed the econmy, I wouldn't owe anyone anything.
(03:57:29 PM) bluefirecorp: Everyone knows the risks of using bitcoins.
(03:57:53 PM) luke-jr: bluefirecorp: I beg to differ. if you actually did a 51% attack, you'd have committed fraud

From: http://luke.dashjr.org/ :
Some content on my personal web directory (this site) is for my personal use only, and may not be legally distributable to other parties. I actively try to keep these properly secured so others cannot download them, but it is possible this might not work for whatever reason. If you are able to download anything that I shouldn't be distributing, please contact me and I will gladly make sure access to it is restricted properly. By downloading anything from my personal web directory here, you assume responsibility for ensuring the copy is in compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction, my jurisdiction (Florida, USA), and my server's jurisdiction (Pennsylvania, USA). If you do not agree to these terms, you are not authorized to access this website. Accessing this website implies you have accepted this agreement as a binding contract.

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57437.80 :
(Quote from: Luke-Jr on January 29, 2012, 07:34:39 PM)
No, Bitcoin is about a decentralized currency. Anything more is subjective. "Absolute freedom" is absolute evil. Bitcoin provides a useful monetary system for the Tonal number system, which is my primary reason for involvement.

More on Anti-Privacy:
(~ Feb 17 2012)
(09:43:07 PM) echelon: ugh, why are all these sites that accept btc blocking tor!?
(09:43:20 PM) luke-jr: echelon: because you're not supposed to be anonymous
(09:44:04 PM) echelon: so what's the point of accepting bitcoins then?
(09:44:09 PM) echelon: it kind of defeats the purpose
(09:44:48 PM) luke-jr: echelon: the purpose is that it's inflationary and can't be reversed
(09:45:27 PM) echelon: i launder my bitcoin
(09:45:44 PM) luke-jr: echelon: laundry is illegal

His Primary Interest in Bitcoin is 'Tonal'
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2623/what-are-tonal-bitcoins
Luke-jr is a huge supporter of Tonal. He said, "For me, Bitcoin is about one thing: providing a monetary system for the Tonal number system." Luke-jr is an active developer and an active proselytizer for Tonal, so you hear about Tonal a lot even though almost no one uses it. – theymos Jan 18 '12 at 15:48

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/2626/3384
Luke goes on to explain more about the real primary reason he is involved with bitcoin: the Tonal system.

http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/12/18
22:46 	Luke-Jr 	http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/12/18/bitcoin-money-laundering/ <-- someone smack this guy :\

http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/03/22
00:01 	BlueMatt 	jgarzik: from that article: ""I think it's inevitable that just like you have U.S. dollars used by thieves and criminals, it's sadly inevitable you will have criminals use a virtual currency. We want to work with authorities," said Jeff Garzik, a Bitcoin developer."
00:03 	Luke-Jr 	the anarchist nut crowd wants to monopolize Bitcoin and use it to achieve their ends

00:06 	Luke-Jr 	gmaxwell: I think tonal is much more revolutionary than bitcoin, but I don't go around telling people they can't use it with decimal BTC :P

0:05 	gmaxwell 	Luke-Jr: if the ultra libertarians didn't like it ??? it would be harder to get it adopted.
00:05 	gmaxwell 	likewise for the not-ultra-libertarians.
00:05 	Luke-Jr 	gmaxwell: perhaps, the problem is their desire to monopolize it and alienate anyone else


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=70580.msg812414;boardseen#new
"Tonal is the whole reason I'm involved with Bitcoin. "Overfluent" doesn't seem to be in any dictionary, so I don't know what it means."

http://www.fugue.in/post/lars_g-in-fact-reddit-just-started-accepting-bitcoin-for-gold-accounts-great-reddit-will
Posted 04:33 PM February 15 2013
Luke-Jr "Lars_G: I would do whatever I can to help shutdown Silk Road. "
Lars_G "Luke-Jr: For the image impact?"
Luke-Jr "Lars_G: because people shouldn't be enabled to do illegal trade"
Lars_G "Luke-Jr: Do you subscribe then to the Lessig view on laws? "
Luke-Jr "Lars_G: no idea who/what Lessig is. I subscribe to the Catholic view on laws. "


http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/03/29
16:13 	HM 	there are no technical barriers if you want to go make a bank though
16:21 	Maelstrom 	besides people that way could by stuff from silkroud thru my bank
16:21 	Maelstrom 	and kieep anoimous
16:23 	Maelstrom 	that way the people wouldnt have to deal with pesky stuff like ensuring transations are in fact acomplished and good are delivered
16:24 	Maelstrom 	isnt that why there are banks with the older currencies?
16:31 	Maelstrom 	lets say some one whats to make a anonymous donation bitcoin is lacking in that respect
16:31 	Luke-Jr 	Maelstrom: you won't find many fans if Silk Road here.
16:31 	Luke-Jr 	of*
16:31 	Maelstrom 	then people would just use my bank and i would do it in their behalf
16:32 	Luke-Jr 	Maelstrom: and anonymity is not really a goal
16:32 	Maelstrom 	Luke-Jr: maybe not for you
16:32 	Maelstrom 	you cant speak in behalf of the community


https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/139#issuecomment-16425348
Luke-Jr: NACK putting extremist anarchists (at least Matonis) as press contacts...
Luke-Jr: Here is one example of Matonis advocating tax evasion (see his closing paragraph, which is entirely useless otherwise).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Luke-Jr#Politics
This user favors absolute monarchy.
This user wants a philosopher king.
This user believes the separation of church and state is heresy.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg1892003#msg1892003
>Wanna know what sells Bitcoin to those in my life that come to me wanting to know about it? They can hide their money from >banks and governments. That's what will sell Bitcoin to people, not the fluffy bullshit about "yes sir! so happy to be >regulated" and "tax me, please!".
Response by Luke Jr: This is exactly the problem. If you want Bitcoin to succeed, you should be encouraging people to pay their taxes.
If all you care about is tax evasion, you are part of the problem.

Gavin apparently considers Luke-Jr a "poisonous person", which is stronger wording than what one usually hears him utter: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg1896950#msg1896950
"The problem is that they project their political ideas on Bitcoin, with things such as representing Bitcoin as being a tool used to bring about anarchy. Matonis, at least, seems to be encouraging people to break the law almost every time he talks about Bitcoin."

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg1897173#msg1897173
Luke Jr: 'But Bitcoin is not a political revolution. Projecting such things  onto Bitcoin is precisely why Matonis should not be included in the  press center. Bitcoin is a technological revolution, like asymmetric cryptography or global networking.'
But neither gunpowder nor bitcoin necessarily imply change in government.
War innovation changes war. Money innovation changes money.
For an inherent change in government, you need political innovation - that's not Bitcoin.

Luke-Jr on Paying Taxes
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg2019945#msg2019945
"Temporal duties and payments exacted by worldly Princes must be paid"
"Obey God, do as he commandeth, Serve him first, and then the Prince."

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdtkn/why_do_people_naively_believe_that_the_government/c961i0u
Seems to me it's just a small set of very vocal anarchists. Somehow they believe Bitcoin is a god that will "save" them from governments.


This is a very long chat log where Luke shows some real colors here.
Some Snippets:

04:25 	luke-jr 	Bitcoin can very easily be banned.
.
04:26 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: if a law passes banning it, it is wrong
04:26 	luke-jr 	nobody has a right to Bitcoin
.
04:27 	cjdelisle 	I know right from wrong and I don't need to consult the words of corrupt politicians and lawyers.
04:27 	justmoon 	luke-jr: there are legal rights and natural rights. free speech is a natural right, so by that standard using bitcoin can never be morally wrong.
04:27 	luke-jr 	"free speech" is not a right at all
04:28 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: disobedience is wrong
.

04:28 	cjdelisle 	luke-jr: how do you know?
04:28 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: the same way anyone can know morality: the Church teaches it
.
04:29 	lfm 	disobedience is absolutly required sometimes
04:30 	luke-jr 	lfm: not the sin of disobedience, no.
04:30 	midnightmagic 	civil disobedience is the duty of every citizen who lives under an unjust law
04:30 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: all laws are just by default
04:30 	luke-jr 	an unjust law is one which contradicts a higher law.
04:30 	luke-jr 	which banning Bitcoin does not.
04:30 	midnightmagic 	the syrian people would disagree with you
04:31 	luke-jr 	then they are wrong
.

04:37 	luke-jr 	unless the law contradicts a higher law, it is just.
04:37 	luke-jr 	lfm gave an example, if it were to violate an unrepealed constitution
04:38 	luke-jr 	unfortunately, the USA has no such constitution
.

04:39 	midnightmagic 	who has the right to make the laws which people must abide by?
04:39 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: the Church and State both have direct jurisdiction from God
04:39 	midnightmagic 	what defines a legitimate state? who is legitimate in somalia for example?
04:39 	luke-jr 	I'm not familiar with Somalia.
04:40 	midnightmagic 	imagine multiple masses of people who all claim to be legitimate authority
04:40 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: the first one, which serves the role.
.

04:42 	luke-jr 	justmoon: objectively, Catholicism is true and the Catholic Church holds authority.
04:43 	midnightmagic 	i'm sorry, i do not believe the contradiction is resolved.. it is a moral absurdity.
04:43 	luke-jr 	all men are subject to the Church, even if they live in disobedience.
.

04:45 	luke-jr 	the Church is the sole authority for teaching morality.
04:46 	luke-jr 	the State is the authority for civil harmony and protection
04:46 	luke-jr 	Church teaches, State protects.
.

04:50 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: except there is no higher law in the case of Bitcoin.
04:51 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: the civil authority can ban Bitcoin
04:51 	midnightmagic 	luke-jr: the only difference being what you and I consider is a higher law. :)
04:51 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: when/if that happens, everyone is bound to stop usign Bitcoin
04:51 	luke-jr 	everyone in that jurisdiction*
.

04:51 	midnightmagic 	i'm glad i can count on you to agree that murder for speech is wrong then :)
04:52 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: depends on the speech.
04:52 	cjdelisle 	That's what this all boils down to, people who don't know right from wrong defer to higher authorities.
04:52 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: the State does have the authority, and in some cases the duty, to execute heretics.
.
04:52 	cjdelisle 	luke-jr: is bitcoin wrong?
04:52 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: disobedience is wrong.
04:52 	cjdelisle 	is bitcoin wrong?
04:53 	luke-jr 	the State can forbid things that are not inherently wrong.
04:53 	cjdelisle 	they can but it would be wrong.
04:53 	luke-jr 	no, it would'nt.
.

04:55 	midnightmagic 	luke-jr: unless the law is immoral, as you say
04:56 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: which banning Bitcoin is not.
04:56 	cjdelisle 	And what this all boils down to is inability to tell right from wrong. Those who can tell right from wrong need not defer to politicians of clergy to regiment their lives.
04:57 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: nobody can tell right from wrong, except by heeding the Church's teachings

cjdelisle 	and inability to tell right from wrong is the legal definition of insanity.
04:57 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: no, it isn't.
04:57 	luke-jr 	cjdelisle: otherwise, all non-Catholics are automatically legally insane.
.

05:08 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: there are no changes in Church doctrine ever.
05:09 	lfm 	dictators are the same as kings
05:09 	luke-jr 	lfm: no.
05:09 	lfm 	how you think kings got their jobs in the first place?
05:09 	luke-jr 	lfm: most probably inherited the position
05:10 	lfm 	thats not the first place, I mean the fiorst king in a line
05:10 	luke-jr 	lfm: there are 3 possibilities
05:11 	lfm 	or are you saying korea is now a kingdom protected by devine right now the leader "inherited" his position?
05:11 	luke-jr 	for money, power, and my favourite: so someone less qualified doesn't get the job
05:11 	luke-jr 	lfm: sure, AFAIK
05:12 	luke-jr 	otoh, N Korea might violate too many rights to be legit; not enough info
05:12 	lfm 	breaking news, korea is approved by the church's devine right of kings, the great leader must not be disobeyed
05:14 	luke-jr 	lfm: his authority is still limited to that of the State
05:14 	luke-jr 	and his jurisdiction to the land of N Korea
05:15 	luke-jr 	and a pope can depose kings ;O)
05:15 	luke-jr 	;)
.

05:19 	luke-jr 	it is legitimate to punish by death, someone who openly declares the popes to not be infallible on matters of faith and morals (other than pagans)
.

05:20 	midnightmagic 	you denying the Nostra Aetate?
05:21 	lfm 	so protestants are not allowed to question the wisdom of the pope but pagans are? facinating
05:21 	luke-jr 	midnightmagic: certainly, just as I deny the Ninety-Five Theses
.

05:22 	luke-jr 	lfm: protestantism is heresy
.

Full Log:
http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/12/31
	<BenderCoin> I was wondering if anyone knew if 'change' addresses are reused to receive change? or are new change addresses\
	created when they are needed. I could not find anything on this with some searching.
	<BenderCoin> The reason this is important is if someone uses a wallet to send btc to a mix service, then sends it back to t\
	he same wallet, then spends it, if the new spend can use an old change address, then the mix service 'clean coins' have now\
	been linked with this old change address.
	<gmaxwell> BenderCoin: they are not reused.
	<Mylon> Someone with more knowledge of the code will need to confirm / elaborate on this, but from what I understood, is th\
	at they by default always generate new addresses
	<Mylon> Though ofc this is wallet specific
	<BenderCoin> gmaxwell, so your response was in regards to bitcoin-qt then.
	<Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: not that you should use mixing services..
	<BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, what do you dislike about mixing services?
	<gmaxwell> BenderCoin: Yes.
	<BenderCoin> thanks gmaxwell, Mylon, much appreciated.
	<gmaxwell> BenderCoin: they sound like a great way to rob people.
	<Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: using them is probably criminal money laundry in most places, plus risky
	<Mylon> BenderCoin: I'm not to fond of using mixing services either, as it gives criminals an easy way to launder money
	<gmaxwell> Mylon: I think you misunderstand the intention of laundering money but thats not here nor there.
	<Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: isn't the "intention"/definition of laundry defined as "hiding the source of money"?
	<BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, no, its 'hiding the source of money obtained or involved in crime'
	<Mylon> the same idea I had about laundering money
	<BenderCoin> "The process of taking the proceeds of criminal activity and making them appear legal."
	<Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: I'm not aware of the laws specifying that it has to have been involved in crime
	<BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, every money laundering law is specifically about that, so you don't need to look far.
	<Mylon> Have to Agree with Luke-Jr there, Government won't really care whether its involved in a crime or not, they just wa\
	nt to be able to track the money, and thus come down hard on any mixing service
	<Mylon> its all about taxes :)
	<gmaxwell> ...
	<BenderCoin> well they won't crack down on a mixing service because of it laundering money, if anything it would be because\
	of it being an MSB.
	<BenderCoin> I bow out as this is bitcoin-dev and I appreciate the tech answer on change addresses. power to you guys. tha\
	nks
	<gmaxwell> In any case, "mixing services" are generally a bad idea regardless of any concerns about their regulatory standi\
	ng.
	<Mylon> ^^
	<BenderCoin> gmaxwell, have you written on this already on bitcoin talk?
	<handle> there's always bitcoin fog
	<handle> suuuper risky to put it in and mix
	<handle> but once it's out you're clear
	<Mylon> to follow up on the original question, would there be any benifit on re-using change addresses
	<gmaxwell> They hand funds over to anonymous third parties who can steal them... and if the third parties _aren't_ anonymou\
	s then they really can't do a good job of keeping their logs secret. Plus you end up conflating your txn with the kind of \
	people who think they need mixing services.
	<handle> ^
	<handle> that too
	<Luke-Jr> Mylon: addresses (in general) should only ever be used once
	<gmaxwell> Well, I suppose its likely the case that the latter concern is moot, actual criminals are probably smart enough \
	to not touch something like that.
	<gmaxwell> :P
	<BenderCoin> gmaxwell, thanks
	<handle> all you're really doing is mixing your dirty money in with other peoples' dirty money

	Other Links to Comments by Luke Jr related to this topic:

	http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/3076/3384
	"Bitcoin is not anonymous. Don't expect it to be."

	http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/09/29
	15:17 Crazy_man Luke-Jr: you dont like the id of anonymous donations through bitcoins
	15:17 Luke-Jr Crazy_man: anonymous generally means laundering, which is a crime
	15:18 Luke-Jr so it doesn't make sense to have a rule against illegal activity
	15:18 Crazy_man for it to be laundering, money has to be dirty
	15:18 Crazy_man in the first place
	15:18 Luke-Jr nope
	15:18 Crazy_man like money from drug sales
	15:18 Luke-Jr laundering is concealing the source of it, period, AFAIK
	15:19 sipa still, anonimity is not a crime
	15:19 sipa privacy is a very basic right
	15:19 Luke-Jr sipa: the line between privacy and laundry is blurry :<

	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118112.0;wap2
	[13:23] <agent8423> when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
	[13:26] <Luke-Jr> agent8423: Bitcoin is just cash. AML laws are for financial instutition
	[13:26] <agent8423> we live in a nation of laws
	[13:26] <@jgarzik> Luke-Jr: bitcoins are digital messages, not cash :)
	[13:26] <kjj_> agent8423: math is math. congress can't change math.
	[13:27] <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'm simplifying :p

	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.170;wap2
	"He filed a DMCA takedown notice on Solidcoin. While I never used Solidcoin and heard bad things about it, I think it's wrong. Bitcoin is strong because it minimally relies on government, and we shouldn't increase it's dependence on government."

	(07:12:40 PM) luke-jr: this idiot is overlooking the fact that Bitcoin was designed with the "banking model" in the long run

	(09:56:10 AM) onelineproof: just want to throw in that I also disagree with sending DMCA notices. We are the Bitcoin community. We must not be reliant on the government to solve our problems.
	(09:57:50 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: I am pro-government.
	(09:58:26 AM) onelineproof: ok but we should be able to operate independently of government. Thats one of the main points of bitcoin.
	(09:58:58 AM) luke-jr: onelineproof: SolidCoin is not Bitcoin

	(03:59:22 PM) olp: bitcoin is beyond laws, we dont need laws to keep bitcoin working
	(03:59:37 PM) luke-jr: olp: fail

	(03:57:20 PM) bluefirecorp: If I performed a 51% attack on bitcoin, and totally crashed the econmy, I wouldn't owe anyone anything.
	(03:57:29 PM) bluefirecorp: Everyone knows the risks of using bitcoins.
	(03:57:53 PM) luke-jr: bluefirecorp: I beg to differ. if you actually did a 51% attack, you'd have committed fraud

	From: http://luke.dashjr.org/ :
	Some content on my personal web directory (this site) is for my personal use only, and may not be legally distributable to other parties. I actively try to keep these properly secured so others cannot download them, but it is possible this might not work for whatever reason. If you are able to download anything that I shouldn't be distributing, please contact me and I will gladly make sure access to it is restricted properly. By downloading anything from my personal web directory here, you assume responsibility for ensuring the copy is in compliance with the laws of your jurisdiction, my jurisdiction (Florida, USA), and my server's jurisdiction (Pennsylvania, USA). If you do not agree to these terms, you are not authorized to access this website. Accessing this website implies you have accepted this agreement as a binding contract.

	From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57437.80 :
	(Quote from: Luke-Jr on January 29, 2012, 07:34:39 PM)
	No, Bitcoin is about a decentralized currency. Anything more is subjective. "Absolute freedom" is absolute evil. Bitcoin provides a useful monetary system for the Tonal number system, which is my primary reason for involvement.

	More on Anti-Privacy:
	(~ Feb 17 2012)
	(09:43:07 PM) echelon: ugh, why are all these sites that accept btc blocking tor!?
	(09:43:20 PM) luke-jr: echelon: because you're not supposed to be anonymous
	(09:44:04 PM) echelon: so what's the point of accepting bitcoins then?
	(09:44:09 PM) echelon: it kind of defeats the purpose
	(09:44:48 PM) luke-jr: echelon: the purpose is that it's inflationary and can't be reversed
	(09:45:27 PM) echelon: i launder my bitcoin
	(09:45:44 PM) luke-jr: echelon: laundry is illegal

	His Primary Interest in Bitcoin is 'Tonal'
	http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2623/what-are-tonal-bitcoins
	Luke-jr is a huge supporter of Tonal. He said, "For me, Bitcoin is about one thing: providing a monetary system for the Tonal number system." Luke-jr is an active developer and an active proselytizer for Tonal, so you hear about Tonal a lot even though almost no one uses it. – theymos Jan 18 '12 at 15:48

	http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/2626/3384
	Luke goes on to explain more about the real primary reason he is involved with bitcoin: the Tonal system.

	http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/12/18
	22:46 Luke-Jr http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/12/18/bitcoin-money-laundering/ <-- someone smack this guy :\

	http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/03/22
	00:01 BlueMatt jgarzik: from that article: ""I think it's inevitable that just like you have U.S. dollars used by thieves and criminals, it's sadly inevitable you will have criminals use a virtual currency. We want to work with authorities," said Jeff Garzik, a Bitcoin developer."
	00:03 Luke-Jr the anarchist nut crowd wants to monopolize Bitcoin and use it to achieve their ends

	00:06 Luke-Jr gmaxwell: I think tonal is much more revolutionary than bitcoin, but I don't go around telling people they can't use it with decimal BTC :P

	0:05 gmaxwell Luke-Jr: if the ultra libertarians didn't like it ??? it would be harder to get it adopted.
	00:05 gmaxwell likewise for the not-ultra-libertarians.
	00:05 Luke-Jr gmaxwell: perhaps, the problem is their desire to monopolize it and alienate anyone else


	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=70580.msg812414;boardseen#new
	"Tonal is the whole reason I'm involved with Bitcoin. "Overfluent" doesn't seem to be in any dictionary, so I don't know what it means."

	http://www.fugue.in/post/lars_g-in-fact-reddit-just-started-accepting-bitcoin-for-gold-accounts-great-reddit-will
	Posted 04:33 PM February 15 2013
	Luke-Jr "Lars_G: I would do whatever I can to help shutdown Silk Road. "
	Lars_G "Luke-Jr: For the image impact?"
	Luke-Jr "Lars_G: because people shouldn't be enabled to do illegal trade"
	Lars_G "Luke-Jr: Do you subscribe then to the Lessig view on laws? "
	Luke-Jr "Lars_G: no idea who/what Lessig is. I subscribe to the Catholic view on laws. "


	http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/03/29
	16:13 HM there are no technical barriers if you want to go make a bank though
	16:21 Maelstrom besides people that way could by stuff from silkroud thru my bank
	16:21 Maelstrom and kieep anoimous
	16:23 Maelstrom that way the people wouldnt have to deal with pesky stuff like ensuring transations are in fact acomplished and good are delivered
	16:24 Maelstrom isnt that why there are banks with the older currencies?
	16:31 Maelstrom lets say some one whats to make a anonymous donation bitcoin is lacking in that respect
	16:31 Luke-Jr Maelstrom: you won't find many fans if Silk Road here.
	16:31 Luke-Jr of*
	16:31 Maelstrom then people would just use my bank and i would do it in their behalf
	16:32 Luke-Jr Maelstrom: and anonymity is not really a goal
	16:32 Maelstrom Luke-Jr: maybe not for you
	16:32 Maelstrom you cant speak in behalf of the community


	https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/139#issuecomment-16425348
	Luke-Jr: NACK putting extremist anarchists (at least Matonis) as press contacts...
	Luke-Jr: Here is one example of Matonis advocating tax evasion (see his closing paragraph, which is entirely useless otherwise).

	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Luke-Jr#Politics
	This user favors absolute monarchy.
	This user wants a philosopher king.
	This user believes the separation of church and state is heresy.

	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg1892003#msg1892003
	>Wanna know what sells Bitcoin to those in my life that come to me wanting to know about it? They can hide their money from >banks and governments. That's what will sell Bitcoin to people, not the fluffy bullshit about "yes sir! so happy to be >regulated" and "tax me, please!".
	Response by Luke Jr: This is exactly the problem. If you want Bitcoin to succeed, you should be encouraging people to pay their taxes.
	If all you care about is tax evasion, you are part of the problem.

	Gavin apparently considers Luke-Jr a "poisonous person", which is stronger wording than what one usually hears him utter: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=62037.0

	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg1896950#msg1896950
	"The problem is that they project their political ideas on Bitcoin, with things such as representing Bitcoin as being a tool used to bring about anarchy. Matonis, at least, seems to be encouraging people to break the law almost every time he talks about Bitcoin."

	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg1897173#msg1897173
	Luke Jr: 'But Bitcoin is not a political revolution. Projecting such things onto Bitcoin is precisely why Matonis should not be included in the press center. Bitcoin is a technological revolution, like asymmetric cryptography or global networking.'
	But neither gunpowder nor bitcoin necessarily imply change in government.
	War innovation changes war. Money innovation changes money.
	For an inherent change in government, you need political innovation - that's not Bitcoin.

	Luke-Jr on Paying Taxes
	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.msg2019945#msg2019945
	"Temporal duties and payments exacted by worldly Princes must be paid"
	"Obey God, do as he commandeth, Serve him first, and then the Prince."

	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdtkn/why_do_people_naively_believe_that_the_government/c961i0u
	Seems to me it's just a small set of very vocal anarchists. Somehow they believe Bitcoin is a god that will "save" them from governments.


	This is a very long chat log where Luke shows some real colors here.
	Some Snippets:

	04:25 luke-jr Bitcoin can very easily be banned.
	.
	04:26 luke-jr cjdelisle: if a law passes banning it, it is wrong
	04:26 luke-jr nobody has a right to Bitcoin
	.
	04:27 cjdelisle I know right from wrong and I don't need to consult the words of corrupt politicians and lawyers.
	04:27 justmoon luke-jr: there are legal rights and natural rights. free speech is a natural right, so by that standard using bitcoin can never be morally wrong.
	04:27 luke-jr "free speech" is not a right at all
	04:28 luke-jr cjdelisle: disobedience is wrong
	.

	04:28 cjdelisle luke-jr: how do you know?
	04:28 luke-jr cjdelisle: the same way anyone can know morality: the Church teaches it
	.
	04:29 lfm disobedience is absolutly required sometimes
	04:30 luke-jr lfm: not the sin of disobedience, no.
	04:30 midnightmagic civil disobedience is the duty of every citizen who lives under an unjust law
	04:30 luke-jr midnightmagic: all laws are just by default
	04:30 luke-jr an unjust law is one which contradicts a higher law.
	04:30 luke-jr which banning Bitcoin does not.
	04:30 midnightmagic the syrian people would disagree with you
	04:31 luke-jr then they are wrong
	.

	04:37 luke-jr unless the law contradicts a higher law, it is just.
	04:37 luke-jr lfm gave an example, if it were to violate an unrepealed constitution
	04:38 luke-jr unfortunately, the USA has no such constitution
	.

	04:39 midnightmagic who has the right to make the laws which people must abide by?
	04:39 luke-jr midnightmagic: the Church and State both have direct jurisdiction from God
	04:39 midnightmagic what defines a legitimate state? who is legitimate in somalia for example?
	04:39 luke-jr I'm not familiar with Somalia.
	04:40 midnightmagic imagine multiple masses of people who all claim to be legitimate authority
	04:40 luke-jr midnightmagic: the first one, which serves the role.
	.

	04:42 luke-jr justmoon: objectively, Catholicism is true and the Catholic Church holds authority.
	04:43 midnightmagic i'm sorry, i do not believe the contradiction is resolved.. it is a moral absurdity.
	04:43 luke-jr all men are subject to the Church, even if they live in disobedience.
	.

	04:45 luke-jr the Church is the sole authority for teaching morality.
	04:46 luke-jr the State is the authority for civil harmony and protection
	04:46 luke-jr Church teaches, State protects.
	.

	04:50 luke-jr midnightmagic: except there is no higher law in the case of Bitcoin.
	04:51 luke-jr midnightmagic: the civil authority can ban Bitcoin
	04:51 midnightmagic luke-jr: the only difference being what you and I consider is a higher law. :)
	04:51 luke-jr midnightmagic: when/if that happens, everyone is bound to stop usign Bitcoin
	04:51 luke-jr everyone in that jurisdiction*
	.

	04:51 midnightmagic i'm glad i can count on you to agree that murder for speech is wrong then :)
	04:52 luke-jr midnightmagic: depends on the speech.
	04:52 cjdelisle That's what this all boils down to, people who don't know right from wrong defer to higher authorities.
	04:52 luke-jr midnightmagic: the State does have the authority, and in some cases the duty, to execute heretics.
	.
	04:52 cjdelisle luke-jr: is bitcoin wrong?
	04:52 luke-jr cjdelisle: disobedience is wrong.
	04:52 cjdelisle is bitcoin wrong?
	04:53 luke-jr the State can forbid things that are not inherently wrong.
	04:53 cjdelisle they can but it would be wrong.
	04:53 luke-jr no, it would'nt.
	.

	04:55 midnightmagic luke-jr: unless the law is immoral, as you say
	04:56 luke-jr midnightmagic: which banning Bitcoin is not.
	04:56 cjdelisle And what this all boils down to is inability to tell right from wrong. Those who can tell right from wrong need not defer to politicians of clergy to regiment their lives.
	04:57 luke-jr cjdelisle: nobody can tell right from wrong, except by heeding the Church's teachings

	cjdelisle and inability to tell right from wrong is the legal definition of insanity.
	04:57 luke-jr cjdelisle: no, it isn't.
	04:57 luke-jr cjdelisle: otherwise, all non-Catholics are automatically legally insane.
	.

	05:08 luke-jr midnightmagic: there are no changes in Church doctrine ever.
	05:09 lfm dictators are the same as kings
	05:09 luke-jr lfm: no.
	05:09 lfm how you think kings got their jobs in the first place?
	05:09 luke-jr lfm: most probably inherited the position
	05:10 lfm thats not the first place, I mean the fiorst king in a line
	05:10 luke-jr lfm: there are 3 possibilities
	05:11 lfm or are you saying korea is now a kingdom protected by devine right now the leader "inherited" his position?
	05:11 luke-jr for money, power, and my favourite: so someone less qualified doesn't get the job
	05:11 luke-jr lfm: sure, AFAIK
	05:12 luke-jr otoh, N Korea might violate too many rights to be legit; not enough info
	05:12 lfm breaking news, korea is approved by the church's devine right of kings, the great leader must not be disobeyed
	05:14 luke-jr lfm: his authority is still limited to that of the State
	05:14 luke-jr and his jurisdiction to the land of N Korea
	05:15 luke-jr and a pope can depose kings ;O)
	05:15 luke-jr ;)
	.

	05:19 luke-jr it is legitimate to punish by death, someone who openly declares the popes to not be infallible on matters of faith and morals (other than pagans)
	.

	05:20 midnightmagic you denying the Nostra Aetate?
	05:21 lfm so protestants are not allowed to question the wisdom of the pope but pagans are? facinating
	05:21 luke-jr midnightmagic: certainly, just as I deny the Ninety-Five Theses
	.

	05:22 luke-jr lfm: protestantism is heresy
	.

	Full Log:
	http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/12/31