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15:19 (*) Cam [~Cam@unaffiliated/cam] has joined #python | |
15:19 (*) Topic for #python: NO LOL | Don't paste in here | http://pound-python.org/ | It's too early to use Python 3.x | Pastebin: http://paste.pocoo.org/ | Tutorial: http://docs.python.org/tut/ | FAQ: http://effbot.org/pyfaq/ | New Programmer? Read http://tinyurl.com/thinkcspy2e | #python.web #wsgi #python-fr #python.de #python-es #python.tw #python.pl #python-br #python-jp #python-nl #python-ir #python-offtopic | |
15:19 (*) Topic set by lvh [~lvh@83.101.78.141] [Sat Apr 17 17:06:24 2010] | |
15:19 [Users #python] | |
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15:19 (*) Irssi: #python: Total of 949 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 949 normal] | |
15:19 (*) Channel #python created Sun Nov 26 01:42:41 2006 | |
15:19 (*) Irssi: Join to #python was synced in 4 secs | |
15:19 unlink> What's the http request/response abstraction library that's in vogue now? | |
15:19 arkanes_> and if you *do*, then don't bitch about it | |
15:19 Cam> Is there a way to create a timer other than spawning threads? | |
15:19 nvictor> stuffs that are really portable | |
15:19 (*) Mahara [~think@unaffiliated/wistful] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | |
15:19 (*) kmcb [~kmcb@173-15-128-34-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kmcb] | |
15:19 dash> Cam: yes | |
15:19 (*) DryGrain [~drygrain@97.73.197.201] has joined #python | |
15:20 Cam> dash: OTHER than twisted. | |
15:20 thrashold> Cam: What the timer is for? | |
15:20 nvictor> arkanes_: i thought bazaar was that's all | |
15:20 dash> unlink: twisted.web? :) | |
15:20 Cam> thrashold: For my IRC bot to run a specific function every 120 seconds. | |
15:20 arkanes_> it is | |
15:20 arkanes_> for whatever thats worth | |
15:20 nvictor> it is not (on windows) | |
15:20 dash> Cam: well you can just do what twisted does. | |
15:20 unlink> um. no. | |
15:20 nosklo> Cam: add the time it is supposed to run to a list, and check it on your event loop | |
15:20 Cam> thrashold: It needs to be able to do other commands. | |
15:20 (*) brianherman [~brianherm@acad54244.wireless.uic.edu] has joined #python | |
15:20 unlink> django.http doesn't count either. | |
15:20 arkanes_> nvictor: nobody except you even cares, since windows is designed to work like this | |
15:20 nvictor> i have almost switched to fossil: http://www.fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/tip/www/quickstart.wiki | |
15:20 (*) pr0gg3d [~pr0gg3d@78-134-6-106.static.ngi.it] has joined #python | |
15:20 Cam> nosklo: I don't think I have an event loop | |
15:20 thrashold> Cam: Well, 1) your bot should use twisted :) 2) just add timeout to your select.select or whatever | |
15:20 nvictor> :D | |
15:20 nosklo> Cam: write one | |
15:20 Cam> nosklo: :\ ok. | |
15:21 arkanes_> nvictor: and bitching about software that works the way your OS is intended to work is silly and irritating | |
15:21 nvictor> hehe | |
15:21 nvictor> sorry :) | |
15:21 geekoid> what's the argument for using super rather than just calling the class that you are subclassing? | |
15:21 Cam> Why does everyone here recommend twisted? I feel like one would learn more without it. | |
15:21 (*) RichGuk_ [~RichGuk@212.159.53.169] has joined #python | |
15:21 geekoid> is it just for cases of muliple inheriytahnce? | |
15:21 nosklo> Cam: you feel wrong. | |
15:21 dash> Cam: why do you feel that way? | |
15:21 (*) kasterma [~kasterma@kasterma.colorado.edu] has joined #python | |
15:21 nazgjunk> Cam: it's pretty convenient | |
15:22 dash> Cam: i guess the main thign is that #python is not intended to help people learn the maximum amount of information possible in the universe | |
15:22 (*) HerbMonk [~herbmonk@76-255-181-35.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | |
15:22 arkanes_> Cam: do you buy your bread from a store, or do you grow your own wheat? | |
15:22 nvictor> see you all later guys | |
15:22 Cam> dash: Because, having written this from scratch I am able to understand socket programming and other various basic irc formats. | |
15:22 dash> Cam: #python is intended to help people learn how to write better programs | |
15:22 nazgjunk> Sure, I could implement the whole IRC protocol from scratch | |
15:22 Wooble> You'd learn more writing your bot in assembly, too. | |
15:22 (*) brianherman [~brianherm@acad54244.wireless.uic.edu] has quit [Client Quit] | |
15:22 thrashold> Cam: You're writing a networking (event-based) application, and you don't have an event loop and probably how it works. If you were using twisted you would know that, and it would be easier for you to write one, probably | |
15:22 papna> You might learn less.... | |
15:22 (*) nvictor [~cc3e281e@gateway/web/freenode/x-kdohmkvsyozcujts] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | |
15:22 arkanes_> well, a big reason is that people who write barely working IRC bots end up thinking they know about socket programming | |
15:22 Cam> dash: But if I specify that I don't want to use twisted, can I please get some help without people saying "USE TWISTED" | |
15:22 ssbr_> Cam: understanding IRC formats is something like learning how to create a knife using flint | |
15:23 papna> Cam: Probably not. | |
15:23 dash> Cam: Why should we help you do something that's a less good idea when there's a better way available? | |
15:23 (*) Adry [~Adry@93-32-38-245.ip31.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ...] | |
15:23 Cam> papna: Then this channel has some flas. | |
15:23 Cam> *flaws | |
15:23 ssbr_> Cam: it's pretty much useless because you can buy a knife made of stainless steel, and even if you were in the wild you could come up with something anyway that wasn't so needlessly soiphisticated | |
15:23 thrashold> Cam: If you don't understand event loops, you don't know much about socket programming, just about socket secrets that aren't nice | |
15:23 xarragon> Hmm, in this case I think the native datetime object will be the best fit. | |
15:23 (*) tlonim [~Raghu@122.167.253.188] has quit [Quit: leaving] | |
15:23 (*) HerbMonk [~herbmonk@76-255-181-35.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #python | |
15:23 dash> Cam: Seriously. What would the advantage be? | |
15:23 Cam> dash: Because I want to do it the "wrong" way. | |
15:23 papna> Cam: It's not a bug. It's a feature. :p | |
15:23 nazgjunk> Knowing the IRC protocol is useful, sure, and you'll have to have a basic grasp of it to use twisted.words | |
15:23 nosklo> Cam: Then this channel is not for you | |
15:23 nosklo> Cam: this channel doesn't help doing things the wrong way. | |
15:23 nazgjunk> but a raw protocol chatter does not a coder make | |
15:23 dash> Cam: Right! But why should _we_ help you do that? | |
15:23 (*) emet [~chat@unaffiliated/emet] has joined #python | |
15:24 Cam> nosklo: It's not wrong, it's different. | |
15:24 nosklo> Cam: different from "right" | |
15:24 unlink> Does anyone use WebOb? | |
15:24 Cam> dash: Because you guys know that there are other ways that using twisted. | |
15:24 Cam> nosklo: No, different from "easier" | |
15:24 dash> Cam: OK, but how's that a factor? | |
15:24 dash> Cam: did you ever think about why we hang around and answer people's questions? :) | |
15:24 Wooble> unlink: yes, many people use WebOb. | |
15:24 papna> Cam: There are other ways to multiple 4 and 8 than using the * operator. That doesn't mean they're recommended. Some of them are completely awful. | |
15:24 arkanes_> I know how to bake bread from scratch, too, but I wouldn't tell someone who wanted to make a sandwich to do that | |
15:24 Cam> dash: Why do you? | |
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15:25 (*) RichGuk [~RichGuk@212.159.53.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] | |
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15:25 nazgjunk> reinventing the wheel is why there are so many websites vulnerable to SQL injections ;) | |
15:25 dash> Cam: because we want the world to be full of better software, not worse | |
15:25 Cam> papna: But does that mean that you guys won't tell someone the other ways? | |
15:25 dash> Cam: yes, it means that. | |
15:25 unlink> Wooble: do you think WebOb or Werkzeug has more mindshare? | |
15:25 dash> Cam: we aren't here to satisfy your wishes. | |
15:25 Cam> dash: What about my questions? | |
15:25 (*) Quintin [~qmr@64.134.164.77] has joined #python | |
15:25 dash> unlink: werkzeug, from what i've seen | |
15:25 dash> Cam: Right, not those either. | |
15:25 Cam> You answer anyone's questions but mine, because I don | |
15:25 Zal> nazgjunk, not reinventing the wheel is why there are so many programmers that do not understand SQL injection | |
15:25 Cam> Don't use twisted | |
15:26 arkanes_> no, we'll answer your questions | |
15:26 arkanes_> but you don't get to limit the way we answer them | |
15:26 Wooble> unlink: well, werkzeug certainly has more google hits. | |
15:26 geekoid> unlink, appengine bundles WebOb | |
15:26 unlink> Wooble: It also means "tool" in german | |
15:26 thrashold> Cam: Your question was answered -- twisted implements an event loop, which provides timers. | |
15:26 Cam> arkanes_: Every time I say "Can I please have some help with x" you say "Are you using twisted, if I reply that I am not, no help. | |
15:26 programble> Cam: this is how you handle these guys: "I am not going to use twisted because I want to limit third-party dependencies. It is my decision" | |
15:26 arkanes_> Cam: sure | |
15:26 Cam> thrashold: What is another method than usign twisted | |
15:26 nosklo> Cam: your questions are being correctly answered with "use twisted" | |
15:26 arkanes_> Cam: that was an answer to your question | |
15:26 Wooble> unlink: well that could explain it :) | |
15:26 nosklo> Cam: so you're getting all answers | |
15:26 ssbr_> programble: that's pretty much the wrong way to do it | |
15:27 Wooble> Cam: use a cron job that runs every 2 minutes. | |
15:27 arkanes_> Cam: acting entitled and whiny is not likely to get us to rethink this policy | |
15:27 Cam> Wooble: Thank you. | |
15:27 programble> ssbr_: there is no wrong way | |
15:27 papna> haha | |
15:27 ssbr_> programble: because then we say your decision is ridiculous. And we'd be right! | |
15:27 thrashold> Cam: The other way is reimplementing twisted, badly. | |
15:27 dash> Heh. | |
15:27 Cam> arkanes_: I am not entitled to anything, I am merely asking if you can put aside my choices in libraries and help me. | |
15:27 programble> ssbr_: but its not up to you, is it? | |
15:27 nazgjunk> Zal: interesting take on it - I was mostly referring to the masses of horrible reimplementations of mysql input cleaning functions | |
15:27 (*) whaley [~whaley@c-71-199-235-64.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #python | |
15:27 (*) ssbr_ [~scorchsab@user65-127.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | |
15:27 dash> Cam: we don't have a good reason to, is the issue | |
15:27 arkanes_> Cam: we want to help you write better programs, because that is the world in which we want to live | |
15:27 papna> Cam: Putting aside your doing something suboptimally isn't helping you. | |
15:27 (*) hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | |
15:28 dash> Cam: we want you to learn how to write networking software in the best way possible. | |
15:28 arkanes_> #python is a channel of social activism! | |
15:28 Cam> arkanes_: So a good program means it has do be done one way? | |
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15:28 (*) ssbr_ [~scorchsab@user65-127.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #python | |
15:28 (*) MrElendig is now known as Mion | |
15:28 dash> Cam: maybe! | |
15:28 arkanes_> Cam: no, but you don't know enough to decide what a good way is | |
15:28 nazgjunk> Cam: everyone believes that there is one right way for a specific task ;) | |
15:28 programble> arkanes_: #python is a dictatorship | |
15:28 arkanes_> Cam: thats why you're asking for help, after all | |
15:28 Cam> dash: I don't want to be one of the hundreds of python programmers that uses twisted, I want to be different, does that mean that I cannot be helped by you guys? | |
15:28 (*) hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #python | |
15:28 (*) skrueger [~simon@c-98-212-155-62.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | |
15:28 programble> look | |
15:28 arkanes_> programble: no | |
15:28 Zal> nazgjunk, sure, I agree with you about that certainly :-) | |
15:28 dash> Cam: Why do you want to be different? | |
15:28 papna> #python is an oligarchy. | |
15:28 programble> there is no one right way to write a program | |
15:28 (*) hsrt [trsh@93-138-2-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | |
15:28 (*) kkris| [~kkris|@93-82-46-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | |
15:28 arkanes_> nobody said there was | |
15:28 thrashold> programble: Read a dictionary definition about what 'dictatorship' is. | |
15:28 dash> programble: Plenty of wrong ones, though. :) | |
15:28 nazgjunk> wanting to be different is the worst reason possible for being different :\ | |
15:28 unlink> I don't use twisted O:-) | |
15:28 Cam> dash: Because I don't want people to see my bot and say "I have seen that before" | |
15:28 ssbr_> programble: no, but there are several wrong ways | |
15:28 Cam> That's it. | |
15:29 papna> Cam: Actually, you're being the same as hundreds of people with broken, crappy IRC bots. | |
15:29 (*) iElectric [~ie@85.110.240.219] has joined #python | |
15:29 arkanes_> on the other hand, theres even more wrong ways | |
15:29 programble> arkanes_: yes, they all say "USE TWISTED OR DIE" | |
15:29 (*) cpbtklogic [~cpbtklogi@pdpc/supporter/student/cpbtklogic] has joined #python | |
15:29 papna> Cam: That's an awful goal. | |
15:29 programble> hence dictatorship | |
15:29 ssbr_> programble: nope. Nobody said that but you, actually. | |
15:29 Cam> papna: It works fine, want to see it? #botters-test | |
15:29 arkanes_> programble: thats still not a dictatorship | |
15:29 ssbr_> programble: and that's not what a dictatorship is. | |
15:29 dash> Cam: we don't believe in originality | |
15:29 Cam> dash: That's unfortuanate | |
15:29 papna> Cam: You want to write software that people have a harder time understanding?? | |
15:29 arkanes_> programble: try to use words that mean what you want to say, instead of words you think sound like bad things | |
15:29 werneck> Cam: well, i'm not a fan of the twisted religion I see around, but I have to ask, is that the only reason you have to not use it? | |
15:29 ssbr_> dash: nasty way of putting it | |
15:29 (*) funkyHat [~m@funkyhat.org] has joined #python | |
15:29 (*) Zal mutters something about nazis | |
15:29 ssbr_> Cam: Originality of implementation is worthless. Originality of execution/product is wonderful. | |
15:29 werneck> Cam: you have a big code base you don't want to change? | |
15:30 arkanes_> people get help for things without using twisted, specifically, all the time | |
15:30 Wooble> Cam: twisted will have no effect whatsoever on how your bot responds to various inputs. "I've seen this before" wouldn't at all be based on using twisted. | |
15:30 Cam> werneck: No, I am learning. I am sure I would learn with twisted, but I want to start from scratch | |
15:30 ssbr_> Cam: one is just you stroking your ego, the other is you creating good and innovative software. | |
15:30 programble> arkanes_: using words that mean what i would want to say would most likely result in a ban | |
15:30 dash> Cam: you aren't starting from scratch, though | |
15:30 (*) oguz [~c18cf902@gateway/web/freenode/x-ajuyaceskcyrpumk] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | |
15:30 Cam> Wooble: I know, but I want to structure to be mine. | |
15:30 werneck> Cam: and you want to learn what? socket programming? | |
15:30 dash> ssbr_: There is nothing new under the sun! All that has been, will be. | |
15:30 arkanes_> but of course not many of them, because 99% of the people who bitch about it are writting yet another crappy IRC bot | |
15:30 ssbr_> dash: wrong! | |
15:30 arkanes_> and honestly, the world doesnt need any of those | |
15:30 dash> Cam: you're already using python. | |
15:30 Cam> werneck: Sure. Parsing data my own, I don't want to use twisted's parser | |
15:30 Cam> dash: I know. | |
15:30 Cam> dash: Thanks for that observation. | |
15:30 arkanes_> programble: maybe you just shouldn't talk then | |
15:30 ssbr_> dash: there are very few unique single ideas, but there's a ridiculous number of combinations of ideas | |
15:30 dash> Cam: Just sayin'. | |
15:31 ssbr_> dash: which is what software is | |
15:31 Quintin> is it just me or does the syntax highliting out of the box in vim really suck? | |
15:31 (*) raubkopierer [~raubkopie@p57AAF08D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #python | |
15:31 werneck> Cam: forget twisted, I'm not talking about that, but i just fell into the discussion and I can't help you if I don't know what you're doing | |
15:31 ssbr_> it's, what sum from 1 to n by k of choose(n, k) ? | |
15:31 ssbr_> that's a huge number. | |
15:31 Cam> dash: Why can't we just put aside our differences, why do people have to judge someone because they are or aren't using a library | |
15:31 programble> maybe he does want to use raw sockets, so what let him, its his choice, its his app | |
15:31 Cam> werneck: I know what I am doing. | |
15:31 programble> stop trying to impose your way of coding on others | |
15:31 ssbr_> Cam: we aren't judging you. We're judging your alternative. | |
15:31 papna> Prometheus: No one's stopping him. | |
15:31 thrashold> Cam: Who's judging you? | |
15:31 arkanes_> Cam: nobody is judging you | |
15:31 programble> thats not the point of this channel | |
15:31 (*) _AnywhereIs_ [~edK@92.50.152.234.static.ufanet.ru] has joined #python | |
15:31 werneck> Cam: if you know what you're doing why you asking for help? | |
15:31 dash> Cam: I'm not judging you. I'm sure you're a great person. | |
15:31 arkanes_> programble: nobody is doing that | |
15:31 ssbr_> programble: Actually, it, uh, is. | |
15:31 papna> programble: ^ | |
15:32 ssbr_> programble: the point of this channel is to help people write software | |
15:32 Cam> ssbr_: You're choosing not give me an alternative to my situation OTHER than twisted. | |
15:32 dash> Cam: But you want different things from us. | |
15:32 ssbr_> programble: it's not to help people do whatever they want | |
15:32 Cam> I don't want to use twisted! So can I have help in some other mediu,? | |
15:32 Cam> dash: No, I want help. | |
15:32 dash> Cam: Since we don't have the same goals I dobut we can work together productively. | |
15:32 ssbr_> Cam: And that's my choice. Twisted is the best solution. Yours is, well, not. | |
15:32 Cam> I don't want twisted advertisements. | |
15:32 dash> Cam: You want help _doing something we think is bad_ | |
15:32 ssbr_> Cam: you act as if you have free will but the rest of the channel does not. | |
15:32 papna> Cam: Before writing a good socket app from scratch you would need to know some stuff. Twisted can teach you that stuff. | |
15:32 arkanes_> maybe you should ask on stack overflow | |
15:32 nosklo> Cam: hire a consultant | |
15:32 ssbr_> Cam: just as you are choosing the path you think is best, we are choosing the answers we think are best. | |
15:32 arkanes_> they like questions like this | |
15:32 thrashold> Cam: Also, you were told about the alternatives, which would involve reimplementing part of twisted. | |
15:32 papna> Cam: Right now you are discovering this stuff on your own, like the need for timed events on an event loop. | |
15:33 arkanes_> (they'll probably tell you to use jquery, though) | |
15:33 Wooble> Cam: if you want a timer in a single-threaded program with no event loop that just responds to input on a socket and blocks waiting for more, you're going to be disappointed. | |
15:33 dash> Cam: Maybe we're wrong! But disliking our opinions isn't going to change them | |
15:33 (*) yamad [~yamad@dhcp-10-157.harvard.edu] has joined #python | |
15:33 Cam> I can't respond to all of these.. | |
15:33 werneck> Cam: people can't help you if they don't know what you want to do... I want to help you but I don't know what you're doing... can you clarify that or you expect me to be psychic too? | |
15:33 nosklo> yeah, ask on SO - that Martelli guy will answer you right away | |
15:33 dash> Cam: yeah it's a mess | |
15:33 papna> Cam: You don't know enough about this to know how to solve it well. | |
15:33 dash> Cam: sorry, 900 people can be loud | |
15:33 (*) Cam pops | |
15:33 ssbr_> nosklo: maybe someday he will be permabanned! | |
15:33 ssbr_> nosklo: more realistically, maybe, I don't know, ghostdog or something | |
15:33 dash> woah | |
15:33 dash> 952 users? | |
15:33 ssbr_> as soon as you have a guy with 20k with an average answer rating of -2, SO will go "wait a second..." | |
15:33 dash> #python is the cancer destroying freenode | |
15:34 (*) ikanobori looks sternly at dash | |
15:34 zimmermanc> wat | |
15:34 ssbr_> dash: damn it, don't say anything until it reaches 1000 | |
15:34 (*) kmcb [~kmcb@173-15-128-34-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #python | |
15:34 (*) dom96 [~dom96@host86-183-249-188.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #python | |
15:34 Cam> ssbr_: I just want someone to suggest "threads" or something. | |
15:34 ssbr_> Cam: why? | |
15:34 papna> hahaha | |
15:34 (*) devin_s is now known as devin_s_afk | |
15:34 Cam> ssbr_: Because that's an answer OTHER THAN Twisted! | |
15:34 ssbr_> Cam: because it would be the stupidest of stupid answers and you could laugh at them? | |
15:34 Cam> That's all I want. | |
15:34 _habnabit> Cam, you want people to give you shitty answers? | |
15:34 arkanes_> but its a bad answer | |
15:34 dash> Cam: you can't always get what you want. | |
15:34 Cam> ssbr_: It's an example. | |
15:34 programble> Cam: look in #botters, they are more helpful | |
15:34 arkanes_> you can write your own bad solutions to problems | |
15:34 ssbr_> Cam: it's an example... of a crappy answer. | |
15:34 ssbr_> Cam: Why do you want bad answers rather than a monopoly of good answers? | |
15:35 Cam> dash: All I ask for is an answer other than Twisted, if you don't have an answer other than that, don't respond! | |
15:35 Cam> ssbr_: ^ | |
15:35 Cam> ssbr_: Because it's not twisted. | |
15:35 thrashold> Cam: You said "without threads", though :P | |
15:35 (*) Xanthine [~xxxanthin@blk-7-130-15.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | |
15:35 _habnabit> Cam, if you want people who will help you write shitty software and also have an irrational fear of hatred, try #freecodeteam. | |
15:35 Cam> thrashold: I know. | |
15:35 ssbr_> Cam: you're complaining about the lovely palace you are in, because your butler won't kick you in the balls when you ask him to | |
15:35 (*) trsh [trsh@93-138-2-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #python | |
15:35 Cam> ssbr_: What the hell are you talking about? | |
15:35 ssbr_> Cam: the butler's job is not to hurt you by doing bad things. | |
15:35 arkanes_> why is it so prevalent that people will ask about problems they dont understand, and then assume that they know enough to dictate the solution? | |
15:35 programble> you know, you guys, someone could ask "How do I put on a condom?" in here and you'd all answer "Use twisted" | |
15:35 Cam> programble: Hahaha | |
15:35 ssbr_> Cam: I am saying that we are giving you a good answer and you're rejecting it for no good reason, and saying that we should give you bad answers instead. | |
15:36 arkanes_> maybe if you had a reason you didn't want to use twisted | |
15:36 Cam> ssbr_: I recognize that it is a good answer, there are other good answers though, I know it. | |
15:36 arkanes_> a good reason, I mean, not a bad one | |
15:36 dash> Cam: How do you know? | |
15:36 ssbr_> Cam: Why do you say that? | |
15:36 Cam> dash: Because there is always more than one way to od something | |
15:36 Cam> ssbr_: ^ | |
15:36 (*) programble is surprised no one told him to use twisted yesterday when he asked about select() | |
15:36 ssbr_> Cam: so far the only alternatives you've given have been bad. | |
15:36 (*) Harpyon [~HP@ti0031a380-0499.bb.online.no] has joined #python | |
15:36 ssbr_> Cam: So what? | |
15:36 thrashold> programble: I've found that's the best way to do that, though. All my Jabber transports are using twisted, and some of them are precursors to putting on a condom. | |
15:36 ssbr_> Cam: that doesn't mean they're all good. | |
15:36 ssbr_> Cam: in fact, sometimes they're all bad. | |
15:36 Cam> ssbr_: Okay, but they all work. | |
15:36 (*) screen-x [~screen-x@91.84.155.61] has left #python [] | |
15:36 Cam> ssbr_: Twisted had to have used bad methods then | |
15:37 Cam> Right? | |
15:37 programble> thrashold: what i mean is, no matter what the question, the answer is the same | |
15:37 ssbr_> Cam: for varying interpretations of "work". They will break sometimes. | |
15:37 programble> oh, wait, someone did tell me to use twisted yesterday | |
15:37 thrashold> Cam: It has done the ugly part so you don't have to reimplement it. | |
15:37 programble> i ignored them | |
15:37 ssbr_> programble: Wrong. | |
15:37 dash> Cam: are you familiar with the Python slogan "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it"? :) | |
15:37 Wooble> Cam: "there is always more than one way to od something" is perl thinking :P | |
15:37 Cam> thrashold: Then I want to do the ugly stuff too! | |
15:37 Cam> dash: Yes. | |
15:37 arkanes_> Cam: why? | |
15:37 (*) nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has left #python ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] | |
15:37 ssbr_> programble: if you asked me, "how do I create a game in Python", I'd recommend pygame and pyglet and cocos2d. | |
15:37 papna> Cam: Sounds like you should study twisted. | |
15:37 _habnabit> Cam, I already gave you an answer you want. | |
15:37 programble> ssbr_: every question i ever asked in here was answered like that | |
15:37 Cam> arkanes_: If they did it, why can't i? | |
15:37 (*) elfgoh [~dingding@adsl178.dyn212.pacific.net.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | |
15:37 arkanes_> Cam: because they had a reason to do it, and you dont | |
15:37 ssbr_> programble: because you are only doing things for which the best way is Twisted. | |
15:37 programble> of course, i am interested in the internets | |
15:37 _habnabit> Cam, do you have me on /ignore or something? | |
15:37 ssbr_> programble: but Twisted doesn't do everything. | |
15:38 Cam> arkanes_: The same reason as them, I want to make an IRC bot. | |
15:38 Cam> _habnabit: I wish. | |
15:38 (*) Acedip [~ani@fedora/Acedip] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | |
15:38 arkanes_> Cam: thats not why twisted exists, though | |
15:38 Cam> _habnabit: Nothing personal, you joined the fight late. | |
15:38 programble> for the record, twisted docs suck | |
15:38 Cam> arkanes_: If they used something, why not recommend itt o me? | |
15:38 arkanes_> Cam: if you want to make an IRC bot, then you should do that | |
15:38 programble> they dont even have docs | |
15:38 _habnabit> Cam, I'm not fighting at all. I gave you a recommendation. | |
15:38 ssbr_> programble: for the record, they need help writing docs. File some patches. | |
15:38 (*) mode/#python [+o dash] by ChanServ | |
15:38 programble> they just have a few examples | |
15:38 (*) programble was kicked from #python by dash [enough noise] | |
15:38 Cam> _habnabit: I missed it, sorry. | |
15:38 (*) mode/#python [+b *!*curtis@*] by dash | |
15:38 Cam> Am I next? | |
15:38 _habnabit> 12:35:17 < _habnabit> Cam, if you want people who will help you write shitty software and also have an irrational fear of hatred, try #freecodeteam. | |
15:39 (*) mode/#python [-o dash] by dash | |
15:39 Cam> _habnabit: thank you. | |
15:39 Cam> dash: Why not kick me? | |
15:39 (*) DasIch_ [~DasIch@p5DC5F011.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #python | |
15:39 arkanes_> well, you are making a lot of noise and youv'e gotten a lot of answers to your questions | |
15:39 dash> Cam: I wouldn't ban someone who was having an actual conversation. | |
15:39 ssbr_> Cam: because you aren't trolling | |
15:39 seen_> Cam: for a low-level approach take a look at gevent | |
15:39 Cam> Ok. | |
15:39 Cam> seen_: Thanks. | |
15:39 ssbr_> Cam: the other guy basically came in, called #python crap, started railing on Twisted | |
15:39 dash> seen_: ugh :( | |
15:39 ssbr_> Cam: hardly a good way to not get banned | |
15:39 Cam> Is gevent a way to time a function? | |
15:39 arkanes_> Cam: there's more man-hours in a high quality event loop and networking library than you've been a live | |
15:40 Cam> arkanes_: I am sure, I want to make a SIMPLE one of my own. | |
15:40 seen_> Cam: no | |
15:40 ssbr_> Cam: you mean, you want to make a bad one | |
15:40 Cam> arkanes_: Give me the name of a library and I will use it | |
15:40 Cam> ssbr_: I didn't mean that ^ | |
15:40 ssbr_> Cam: Twisted | |
15:40 arkanes_> Cam: writing one from scratch wont teach you much about how to write a good one. It'd be like learning architecture by building bike sheds. Working with and improving an existing one is how you learn about these thingsd | |
15:40 arkanes_> Cam: twisted | |
15:40 Cam> ssbr_: Other than twisted. | |
15:40 Cam> NO! | |
15:40 ssbr_> Cam: that's not what you said | |
15:40 ssbr_> <Cam> arkanes_: Give me the name of a library and I will use it | |
15:40 arkanes_> you kinda walked into that one | |
15:40 ssbr_> Twisted. | |
15:40 Cam> Bahh.... | |
15:40 (*) jcreigh [~jason@72-160-63-13.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #python | |
15:40 Cam> Any other ones? | |
15:40 Cam> If not, I am making my own. | |
15:40 dash> Cam: Why? :) | |
15:40 ssbr_> Cam: see I don't understand that. | |
15:41 Cam> dash: Because I don't want to use twisted! | |
15:41 arkanes_> well, we can't stop you | |
15:41 (*) habnabit [~habnabit@166.205.141.111] has joined #python | |
15:41 Cam> arkanes_: So why not help me? | |
15:41 ssbr_> Cam: Why? | |
15:41 papna> Cam: You don't know enough to make a good one, it is clear. | |
15:41 arkanes_> but I'm sure by now you understand why we dont want to help? | |
15:41 dash> Cam: i'm way ahead of you | |
15:41 papna> Cam: arkanes_ is trying to help you. | |
15:41 arkanes_> Cam: we just spent 20 minutes explaining our motivations | |
15:41 dash> Cam: i don't really like twisted _or_ python | |
15:41 Cam> One replay at a time | |
15:41 Cam> come on | |
15:41 ssbr_> Hey, can somebody fork Twisted and give it to Cam? | |
15:41 dash> Cam: so i'm working on a new language | |
15:41 ssbr_> It's definitely the best route. | |
15:41 dash> Cam: that has its own, better, networking library. | |
15:41 Cam> dash: Email me when you're done. | |
15:41 ssbr_> Cam: software is never "done" | |
15:41 dash> Cam: That'll be really hard | |
15:41 Cam> ssbr_: Ok? | |
15:41 dash> Cam: i'll be dead by then. | |
15:42 (*) lucalenardi [~lucalenar@host177-66-static.51-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: lucalenardi] | |
15:42 Cam> dash: Oh. | |
15:42 (*) Milos|Laptop [~Milos@60-234-198-177.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #python | |
15:42 ssbr_> Cam: the point being that he'll never email you, even when it's the best solution out there. :) | |
15:42 Cam> Oh, o. | |
15:42 Cam> ssbr_: What did twisted use for even handling? | |
15:42 dash> Cam: Hopefully not soon, but still. ;) | |
15:42 Cam> Do you know off the top of your head? | |
15:42 Cam> dash: :) | |
15:42 (*) Kaedenn [~Kaedenn@unaffiliated/kaedenn] has joined #python | |
15:42 dash> Cam: select, poll, epoll, kqueue, iocp | |
15:42 ssbr_> Cam: uh, it is an event handling framework | |
15:42 dash> Cam: select is the default. | |
15:42 Cam> dash: That's perfect then. | |
15:42 ssbr_> dash: isn't that how it gets events? | |
15:42 (*) DasIch [~DasIch@p5DC5F503.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] | |
15:42 (*) zsquareplusc [~zsquarepl@unaffiliated/zsquareplusc] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100402010516]] | |
15:42 Cam> That's all I wanted. | |
15:42 Cam> Someone to say select. | |
15:43 dash> ssbr_: language! it's imprecise. | |
15:43 (*) aliceinwire is now known as n1ckname | |
15:43 dash> Cam: don't write your own select loop, though. | |
15:43 Cam> dash: Too late, I am going to try. | |
15:43 thrashold> Cam: I think I said that | |
15:43 dash> Cam: have fun, I guess. | |
15:43 Cam> thrashold: oh, I missed that, sorry. | |
15:43 Cam> dash: Thanks so much. | |
15:43 (*) DasIch_ is now known as DasIch | |
15:43 papna> Cam: You need to know more than you currently do before you can do it well. | |
15:43 (*) Betamonkey [Roo@144.134.239.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | |
15:43 ssbr_> I cannot understand how people can be so stubbornly evil. | |
15:43 (*) amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FF028AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #python | |
15:43 Cam> papna: I am going to go read the docs for select. | |
15:43 papna> Cam: You'll be reading the wrong stuff. | |
15:43 dash> ssbr_: it's what people are like. | |
15:43 Cam> ssbr_: I am like the bane of #python (nobody ban on that pls.. that's not nice) | |
15:43 Cam> papna: why? | |
15:44 (*) kkris| [~kkris|@80-123-36-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #python | |
15:44 ssbr_> Cam: that doesn't mean you should be so dead-set on writing bad software | |
15:44 Cam> ssbr_: I am not. | |
15:44 ssbr_> Cam: then why are you reinventing the wheel, badly? | |
15:44 Cam> ssbr_: Chances are, I will finish this, or go as far as I can and then convert to twisted. | |
15:44 ssbr_> Cam: keep in mind that the effort involved in reinventing it well is more than you possess | |
15:44 (*) wvd [~wvd@unaffiliated/williej] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | |
15:44 Cam> ssbr_: Because twisted keeps trying to sell me a metal wheel, and I want a f*cking wooden one. | |
15:44 ssbr_> Cam: so by reinventing it you necessarily commit yourself to writing bad software | |
15:44 ssbr_> Cam: so patch Twisted | |
15:44 Cam> I don't care if the wooden one will break. | |
15:44 ssbr_> Cam: it's not so hard. | |
15:45 Cam> ssbr_: What if I make a library better than twisted? | |
15:45 Cam> What if that is my goal? | |
15:45 (*) rsFF [~rsFF@81.193.23.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | |
15:45 arkanes_> you don't learn by writing bad things | |
15:45 ssbr_> Cam: Fork Twisted. | |
15:45 ssbr_> Cam: that's the best way to achieve this goal. | |
15:45 dash> Cam: then don't tell us you're trying to write an irc bot :) | |
15:45 Cam> If everyone uses twisted, nobody will start from scratch and do better than twisted. | |
15:45 arkanes_> Cam: if you could do it, you'd know enough that you wouldn't be talking to us abou tit | |
15:45 thrashold> Cam: You have three free lifetimes? | |
15:45 (*) Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] | |
15:45 dash> Cam: writing a better library than twisted would be pretty great | |
15:45 Cam> thrashold: Yes. | |
15:45 (*) iElectric [~ie@85.110.240.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | |
15:45 arkanes_> they might | |
15:45 Zal> patching twisted is a lot harder if you don't know how to use the low-level tools it uses. | |
15:45 papna> Cam: If you asked me how to build a table, I might tell you to use a radial arm saw. You could go read the manual to the radial arm saw, but that wouldn't teach you the actual carpentry skills that it takes to build a table. You need to have the right ideas to know where to cut to use the tool. | |
15:45 arkanes_> but they'd know how to do it | |
15:45 dash> Cam: but you have to understand why twisted is bad, first | |
15:45 dash> Cam: and to do that, you have to understand how it's good. | |
15:45 Cam> papna: Great analogy | |
15:46 (*) devin_s_afk is now known as devin_s | |
15:46 arkanes_> yes, it is great | |
15:46 arkanes_> because radial arm saws are the wrong tools for making a table | |
15:46 Cam> Hahahah | |
15:46 arkanes_> and you don't know that | |
15:46 Zal> sure, and building a table with nothing but handtools is a beautiful and rewarding experience too | |
15:46 Cam> You're right. I don't know. | |
15:46 Cam> Zal: There's another reason. | |
15:46 (*) Walt [~Walt@c-4f662b62-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | |
15:46 Zal> Cam, yep, lots of possible reasons, I'm certain | |
15:46 arkanes_> and you can learn that by cutting your thumbs off with a saw, or by learning from someone who does know how to make tables | |
15:46 Cam> It turns me pink with happiness when I realize I did this without twisted. | |
15:46 papna> arkanes_: It would take many tools. A radial arm saw could be useful at several junctures. | |
15:46 ssbr_> Cam: you have the wrong motivations then | |
15:47 dash> Zal: in a world where most tables fall over when you put stuff on top, people asking for help making a table by hand might be viewed with a certain level of suspicion | |
15:47 Zal> Cam, right, that's part of "rewarding" :-) | |
15:47 arkanes_> papna: yes, I'm speaking in broad generalities | |
15:47 Cam> ssbr_: Ok. | |
15:47 dash> Cam: #python cares nothing for your happiness | |
15:47 (*) rsFF [~rsFF@81.193.17.251] has joined #python | |
15:47 Cam> dash: So I see. | |
15:47 papna> arkanes_: Oh. I thought you were just disagreeing. | |
15:47 ssbr_> Cam: a man walks along and kicks a dog. A bystander asks why he did that. "Because it made me feel better!" | |
15:47 (*) dom96 [~dom96@host86-183-249-188.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has left #python ["Leaving"] | |
15:47 dash> Cam: ;-) | |
15:47 Cam> ssbr_: | |
15:47 Zal> dash, sure, if you're the suspicious type | |
15:47 ssbr_> Cam: we could say "don't do things that make you feel better", or we can say "change what makes you feel better" | |
15:47 (*) kosh sets Cam on fire | |
15:47 (*) Cam doesn | |
15:47 ssbr_> Cam: so learn to love creating great software, instead of to love avoiding useful tools | |
15:48 (*) Cam doesn't give a damn | |
15:48 Cam> To kosh | |
15:48 Cam> ssbr_: I do love creating software. | |
15:48 thrashold> Cam: Don't worry, he sets everybody on fire :P | |
15:48 Cam> ssbr_: I love it so much that I don't want to polute it with twisted. | |
15:48 ssbr_> Cam: *great* software. | |
15:48 Slade-> yea kosh is trendy that way | |
15:48 Cam> thrashold: ok | |
15:48 Cam> ssbr_: Mine is *great* | |
15:48 Zal> dash, I'm *much* more suspicious of anyone telling me THE right way to do something. | |
15:48 Cam> But it still needs help | |
15:48 ssbr_> Cam: sorry, that argument's not going to work. Because your alternative is to pollute it with something worse than Twisted. | |
15:48 Cam> ssbr_: In your opinion. | |
15:49 dash> Zal: well then, don't ask what the right way to do it is. ;) | |
15:49 (*) HerbMonk [~herbmonk@76-255-181-35.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | |
15:49 (*) woodworks [woodworks@17.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has quit [] | |
15:49 ssbr_> Cam: Mine and nearly everyone else you've talked to so far, I think. Backed up by empirical data on the quality of Twisted "replacement" code. | |
15:49 Cam> I must go, does anyone mind me posting this as a log? | |
15:49 (*) Sentynel [~sentynel@unaffiliated/sentynel] has joined #python | |
15:49 dash> Cam: #python is for helping people write better programs. | |
15:49 thrashold> Cam: Show us some code from that bot to convince us it's not worse? :P | |
15:49 Cam> thrashold: print "cam" | |
15:49 dash> Cam: You have other goals besides writing better programs. | |
15:49 Cam> dash: Sure | |
15:50 Cam> I really have to go. | |
15:50 ssbr_> Cam: I would object to you posting logs in out-of-context segments. | |
15:50 ssbr_> Otherwise, don't care., | |
15:50 Cam> ssbr_: I will post the whole thing. | |
15:50 Cam> If you want I will exclude your name. | |
15:50 (*) ambroff [~ambroff@65-113-99-90.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] | |
15:50 Zal> dash, hm, I'm pretty sure Cam asked about a "method other than Twisted" | |
15:50 Cam> I can replace it with anything. | |
15:50 ssbr_> No, that's fine. | |
15:50 Cam> Thanks |
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