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15:19 (*) Cam [~Cam@unaffiliated/cam] has joined #python
15:19 (*) Topic for #python: NO LOL | Don't paste in here | http://pound-python.org/ | It's too early to use Python 3.x | Pastebin: http://paste.pocoo.org/ | Tutorial: http://docs.python.org/tut/ | FAQ: http://effbot.org/pyfaq/ | New Programmer? Read http://tinyurl.com/thinkcspy2e | #python.web #wsgi #python-fr #python.de #python-es #python.tw #python.pl #python-br #python-jp #python-nl #python-ir #python-offtopic
15:19 (*) Topic set by lvh [~lvh@83.101.78.141] [Sat Apr 17 17:06:24 2010]
15:19 [Users #python]
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15:19  dvschramm       : kunir        : samferry       : {Nathan}       :
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15:19 (*) Irssi: #python: Total of 949 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 949 normal]
15:19 (*) Channel #python created Sun Nov 26 01:42:41 2006
15:19 (*) Irssi: Join to #python was synced in 4 secs
15:19  unlink> What's the http request/response abstraction library that's in vogue now?
15:19  arkanes_> and if you *do*, then don't bitch about it
15:19  Cam> Is there a way to create a timer other than spawning threads?
15:19  nvictor> stuffs that are really portable
15:19 (*) Mahara [~think@unaffiliated/wistful] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:19 (*) kmcb [~kmcb@173-15-128-34-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kmcb]
15:19  dash> Cam: yes
15:19 (*) DryGrain [~drygrain@97.73.197.201] has joined #python
15:20  Cam> dash: OTHER than twisted.
15:20  thrashold> Cam: What the timer is for?
15:20  nvictor> arkanes_: i thought bazaar was that's all
15:20  dash> unlink: twisted.web? :)
15:20  Cam> thrashold: For my IRC bot to run a specific function every 120 seconds.
15:20  arkanes_> it is
15:20  arkanes_> for whatever thats worth
15:20  nvictor> it is not (on windows)
15:20  dash> Cam: well you can just do what twisted does.
15:20  unlink> um. no.
15:20  nosklo> Cam: add the time it is supposed to run to a list, and check it on your event loop
15:20  Cam> thrashold: It needs to be able to do other commands.
15:20 (*) brianherman [~brianherm@acad54244.wireless.uic.edu] has joined #python
15:20  unlink> django.http doesn't count either.
15:20  arkanes_> nvictor: nobody except you even cares, since windows is designed to work like this
15:20  nvictor> i have almost switched to fossil: http://www.fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/tip/www/quickstart.wiki
15:20 (*) pr0gg3d [~pr0gg3d@78-134-6-106.static.ngi.it] has joined #python
15:20  Cam> nosklo: I don't think I have an event loop
15:20  thrashold> Cam: Well, 1) your bot should use twisted :) 2) just add timeout to your select.select or whatever
15:20  nvictor> :D
15:20  nosklo> Cam: write one
15:20  Cam> nosklo: :\ ok.
15:21  arkanes_> nvictor: and bitching about software that works the way your OS is intended to work is silly and irritating
15:21  nvictor> hehe
15:21  nvictor> sorry :)
15:21  geekoid> what's the argument for using super rather than just calling the class that you are subclassing?
15:21  Cam> Why does everyone here recommend twisted? I feel like one would learn more without it.
15:21 (*) RichGuk_ [~RichGuk@212.159.53.169] has joined #python
15:21  geekoid> is it just for cases of muliple inheriytahnce?
15:21  nosklo> Cam: you feel wrong.
15:21  dash> Cam: why do you feel that way?
15:21 (*) kasterma [~kasterma@kasterma.colorado.edu] has joined #python
15:21  nazgjunk> Cam: it's pretty convenient
15:22  dash> Cam: i guess the main thign is that #python is not intended to help people learn the maximum amount of information possible in the universe
15:22 (*) HerbMonk [~herbmonk@76-255-181-35.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:22  arkanes_> Cam: do you buy your bread from a store, or do you grow your own wheat?
15:22  nvictor> see you all later guys
15:22  Cam> dash: Because, having written this from scratch I am able to understand socket programming and other various basic irc formats.
15:22  dash> Cam: #python is intended to help people learn how to write better programs
15:22  nazgjunk> Sure, I could implement the whole IRC protocol from scratch
15:22  Wooble> You'd learn more writing your bot in assembly, too.
15:22 (*) brianherman [~brianherm@acad54244.wireless.uic.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
15:22  thrashold> Cam: You're writing a networking (event-based) application, and you don't have an event loop and probably how it works. If you were using twisted you would know that, and it would be easier for you to write one, probably
15:22  papna> You might learn less....
15:22 (*) nvictor [~cc3e281e@gateway/web/freenode/x-kdohmkvsyozcujts] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
15:22  arkanes_> well, a big reason is that people who write barely working IRC bots end up thinking they know about socket programming
15:22  Cam> dash: But if I specify that I don't want to use twisted, can I please get some help without people saying "USE TWISTED"
15:22  ssbr_> Cam: understanding IRC formats is something like learning how to create a knife using flint
15:23  papna> Cam: Probably not.
15:23  dash> Cam: Why should we help you do something that's a less good idea when there's a better way available?
15:23 (*) Adry [~Adry@93-32-38-245.ip31.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ...]
15:23  Cam> papna: Then this channel has some flas.
15:23  Cam> *flaws
15:23  ssbr_> Cam: it's pretty much useless because you can buy a knife made of stainless steel, and even if you were in the wild you could come up with something anyway that wasn't so needlessly soiphisticated
15:23  thrashold> Cam: If you don't understand event loops, you don't know much about socket programming, just about socket secrets that aren't nice
15:23  xarragon> Hmm, in this case I think the native datetime object will be the best fit.
15:23 (*) tlonim [~Raghu@122.167.253.188] has quit [Quit: leaving]
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15:23  dash> Cam: Seriously. What would the advantage be?
15:23  Cam> dash: Because I want to do it the "wrong" way.
15:23  papna> Cam: It's not a bug. It's a feature. :p
15:23  nazgjunk> Knowing the IRC protocol is useful, sure, and you'll have to have a basic grasp of it to use twisted.words
15:23  nosklo> Cam: Then this channel is not for you
15:23  nosklo> Cam: this channel doesn't help doing things the wrong way.
15:23  nazgjunk> but a raw protocol chatter does not a coder make
15:23  dash> Cam: Right! But why should _we_ help you do that?
15:23 (*) emet [~chat@unaffiliated/emet] has joined #python
15:24  Cam> nosklo: It's not wrong, it's different.
15:24  nosklo> Cam: different from "right"
15:24  unlink> Does anyone use WebOb?
15:24  Cam> dash: Because you guys know that there are other ways that using twisted.
15:24  Cam> nosklo: No, different from "easier"
15:24  dash> Cam: OK, but how's that a factor?
15:24  dash> Cam: did you ever think about why we hang around and answer people's questions? :)
15:24  Wooble> unlink: yes, many people use WebOb.
15:24  papna> Cam: There are other ways to multiple 4 and 8 than using the * operator. That doesn't mean they're recommended. Some of them are completely awful.
15:24  arkanes_> I know how to bake bread from scratch, too, but I wouldn't tell someone who wanted to make a sandwich to do that
15:24  Cam> dash: Why do you?
15:24 (*) nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #python
15:25 (*) RichGuk [~RichGuk@212.159.53.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:25 (*) RichGuk_ is now known as RichGuk
15:25  nazgjunk> reinventing the wheel is why there are so many websites vulnerable to SQL injections ;)
15:25  dash> Cam: because we want the world to be full of better software, not worse
15:25  Cam> papna: But does that mean that you guys won't tell someone the other ways?
15:25  dash> Cam: yes, it means that.
15:25  unlink> Wooble: do you think WebOb or Werkzeug has more mindshare?
15:25  dash> Cam: we aren't here to satisfy your wishes.
15:25  Cam> dash: What about my questions?
15:25 (*) Quintin [~qmr@64.134.164.77] has joined #python
15:25  dash> unlink: werkzeug, from what i've seen
15:25  dash> Cam: Right, not those either.
15:25  Cam> You answer anyone's questions but mine, because I don
15:25  Zal> nazgjunk, not reinventing the wheel is why there are so many programmers that do not understand SQL injection
15:25  Cam> Don't use twisted
15:26  arkanes_> no, we'll answer your questions
15:26  arkanes_> but you don't get to limit the way we answer them
15:26  Wooble> unlink: well, werkzeug certainly has more google hits.
15:26  geekoid> unlink, appengine bundles WebOb
15:26  unlink> Wooble: It also means "tool" in german
15:26  thrashold> Cam: Your question was answered -- twisted implements an event loop, which provides timers.
15:26  Cam> arkanes_: Every time I say "Can I please have some help with x" you say "Are you using twisted, if I reply that I am not, no help.
15:26  programble> Cam: this is how you handle these guys: "I am not going to use twisted because I want to limit third-party dependencies. It is my decision"
15:26  arkanes_> Cam: sure
15:26  Cam> thrashold: What is another method than usign twisted
15:26  nosklo> Cam: your questions are being correctly answered with "use twisted"
15:26  arkanes_> Cam: that was an answer to your question
15:26  Wooble> unlink: well that could explain it :)
15:26  nosklo> Cam: so you're getting all answers
15:26  ssbr_> programble: that's pretty much the wrong way to do it
15:27  Wooble> Cam: use a cron job that runs every 2 minutes.
15:27  arkanes_> Cam: acting entitled and whiny is not likely to get us to rethink this policy
15:27  Cam> Wooble: Thank you.
15:27  programble> ssbr_: there is no wrong way
15:27  papna> haha
15:27  ssbr_> programble: because then we say your decision is ridiculous. And we'd be right!
15:27  thrashold> Cam: The other way is reimplementing twisted, badly.
15:27  dash> Heh.
15:27  Cam> arkanes_: I am not entitled to anything, I am merely asking if you can put aside my choices in libraries and help me.
15:27  programble> ssbr_: but its not up to you, is it?
15:27  nazgjunk> Zal: interesting take on it - I was mostly referring to the masses of horrible reimplementations of mysql input cleaning functions
15:27 (*) whaley [~whaley@c-71-199-235-64.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #python
15:27 (*) ssbr_ [~scorchsab@user65-127.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:27  dash> Cam: we don't have a good reason to, is the issue
15:27  arkanes_> Cam: we want to help you write better programs, because that is the world in which we want to live
15:27  papna> Cam: Putting aside your doing something suboptimally isn't helping you.
15:27 (*) hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
15:28  dash> Cam: we want you to learn how to write networking software in the best way possible.
15:28  arkanes_> #python is a channel of social activism!
15:28  Cam> arkanes_: So a good program means it has do be done one way?
15:28 (*) iElectric [~ie@85.110.240.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:28 (*) ssbr_ [~scorchsab@user65-127.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #python
15:28 (*) MrElendig is now known as Mion
15:28  dash> Cam: maybe!
15:28  arkanes_> Cam: no, but you don't know enough to decide what a good way is
15:28  nazgjunk> Cam: everyone believes that there is one right way for a specific task ;)
15:28  programble> arkanes_: #python is a dictatorship
15:28  arkanes_> Cam: thats why you're asking for help, after all
15:28  Cam> dash: I don't want to be one of the hundreds of python programmers that uses twisted, I want to be different, does that mean that I cannot be helped by you guys?
15:28 (*) hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #python
15:28 (*) skrueger [~simon@c-98-212-155-62.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:28  programble> look
15:28  arkanes_> programble: no
15:28  Zal> nazgjunk, sure, I agree with you about that certainly :-)
15:28  dash> Cam: Why do you want to be different?
15:28  papna> #python is an oligarchy.
15:28  programble> there is no one right way to write a program
15:28 (*) hsrt [trsh@93-138-2-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:28 (*) kkris| [~kkris|@93-82-46-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:28  arkanes_> nobody said there was
15:28  thrashold> programble: Read a dictionary definition about what 'dictatorship' is.
15:28  dash> programble: Plenty of wrong ones, though. :)
15:28  nazgjunk> wanting to be different is the worst reason possible for being different :\
15:28  unlink> I don't use twisted O:-)
15:28  Cam> dash: Because I don't want people to see my bot and say "I have seen that before"
15:28  ssbr_> programble: no, but there are several wrong ways
15:28  Cam> That's it.
15:29  papna> Cam: Actually, you're being the same as hundreds of people with broken, crappy IRC bots.
15:29 (*) iElectric [~ie@85.110.240.219] has joined #python
15:29  arkanes_> on the other hand, theres even more wrong ways
15:29  programble> arkanes_: yes, they all say "USE TWISTED OR DIE"
15:29 (*) cpbtklogic [~cpbtklogi@pdpc/supporter/student/cpbtklogic] has joined #python
15:29  papna> Cam: That's an awful goal.
15:29  programble> hence dictatorship
15:29  ssbr_> programble: nope. Nobody said that but you, actually.
15:29  Cam> papna: It works fine, want to see it? #botters-test
15:29  arkanes_> programble: thats still not a dictatorship
15:29  ssbr_> programble: and that's not what a dictatorship is.
15:29  dash> Cam: we don't believe in originality
15:29  Cam> dash: That's unfortuanate
15:29  papna> Cam: You want to write software that people have a harder time understanding??
15:29  arkanes_> programble: try to use words that mean what you want to say, instead of words you think sound like bad things
15:29  werneck> Cam: well, i'm not a fan of the twisted religion I see around, but I have to ask, is that the only reason you have to not use it?
15:29  ssbr_> dash: nasty way of putting it
15:29 (*) funkyHat [~m@funkyhat.org] has joined #python
15:29 (*) Zal mutters something about nazis
15:29  ssbr_> Cam: Originality of implementation is worthless. Originality of execution/product is wonderful.
15:29  werneck> Cam: you have a big code base you don't want to change?
15:30  arkanes_> people get help for things without using twisted, specifically, all the time
15:30  Wooble> Cam: twisted will have no effect whatsoever on how your bot responds to various inputs.  "I've seen this before" wouldn't at all be based on using twisted.
15:30  Cam> werneck: No, I am learning. I am sure I would learn with twisted, but I want to start from scratch
15:30  ssbr_> Cam: one is just you stroking your ego, the other is you creating good and innovative software.
15:30  programble> arkanes_: using words that mean what i would want to say would most likely result in a ban
15:30  dash> Cam: you aren't starting from scratch, though
15:30 (*) oguz [~c18cf902@gateway/web/freenode/x-ajuyaceskcyrpumk] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
15:30  Cam> Wooble: I know, but I want to structure to be mine.
15:30  werneck> Cam: and you want to learn what? socket programming?
15:30  dash> ssbr_: There is nothing new under the sun! All that has been, will be.
15:30  arkanes_> but of course not many of them, because 99% of the people who bitch about it are writting yet another crappy IRC bot
15:30  ssbr_> dash: wrong!
15:30  arkanes_> and honestly, the world doesnt need any of those
15:30  dash> Cam: you're already using python.
15:30  Cam> werneck: Sure. Parsing data my own, I don't want to use twisted's parser
15:30  Cam> dash: I know.
15:30  Cam> dash: Thanks for that observation.
15:30  arkanes_> programble: maybe you just shouldn't talk then
15:30  ssbr_> dash: there are very few unique single ideas, but there's a ridiculous number of combinations of ideas
15:30  dash> Cam: Just sayin'.
15:31  ssbr_> dash: which is what software is
15:31  Quintin> is it just me or does the syntax highliting out of the box in vim really suck?
15:31 (*) raubkopierer [~raubkopie@p57AAF08D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #python
15:31  werneck> Cam: forget twisted, I'm not talking about that, but i just fell into the discussion and I can't help you if I don't know what you're doing
15:31  ssbr_> it's, what sum from 1 to n by k of choose(n, k) ?
15:31  ssbr_> that's a huge number.
15:31  Cam> dash: Why can't we just put aside our differences, why do people have to judge someone because they are or aren't using a library
15:31  programble> maybe he does want to use raw sockets, so what let him, its his choice, its his app
15:31  Cam> werneck: I know what I am doing.
15:31  programble> stop trying to impose your way of coding on others
15:31  ssbr_> Cam: we aren't judging you. We're judging your alternative.
15:31  papna> Prometheus: No one's stopping him.
15:31  thrashold> Cam: Who's judging you?
15:31  arkanes_> Cam: nobody is judging you
15:31  programble> thats not the point of this channel
15:31 (*) _AnywhereIs_ [~edK@92.50.152.234.static.ufanet.ru] has joined #python
15:31  werneck> Cam: if you know what you're doing why you asking for help?
15:31  dash> Cam: I'm not judging you. I'm sure you're a great person.
15:31  arkanes_> programble: nobody is doing that
15:31  ssbr_> programble: Actually, it, uh, is.
15:31  papna> programble: ^
15:32  ssbr_> programble: the point of this channel is to help people write software
15:32  Cam> ssbr_: You're choosing not give me an alternative to my situation OTHER than twisted.
15:32  dash> Cam: But you want different things from us.
15:32  ssbr_> programble: it's not to help people do whatever they want
15:32  Cam> I don't want to use twisted! So can I have help in some other mediu,?
15:32  Cam> dash: No, I want help.
15:32  dash> Cam: Since we don't have the same goals I dobut we can work together productively.
15:32  ssbr_> Cam: And that's my choice. Twisted is the best solution. Yours is, well, not.
15:32  Cam> I don't want twisted advertisements.
15:32  dash> Cam: You want help _doing something we think is bad_
15:32  ssbr_> Cam: you act as if you have free will but the rest of the channel does not.
15:32  papna> Cam: Before writing a good socket app from scratch you would need to know some stuff. Twisted can teach you that stuff.
15:32  arkanes_> maybe you should ask on stack overflow
15:32  nosklo> Cam: hire a consultant
15:32  ssbr_> Cam: just as you are choosing the path you think is best, we are choosing the answers we think are best.
15:32  arkanes_> they like questions like this
15:32  thrashold> Cam: Also, you were told about the alternatives, which would involve reimplementing part of twisted.
15:32  papna> Cam: Right now you are discovering this stuff on your own, like the need for timed events on an event loop.
15:33  arkanes_> (they'll probably tell you to use jquery, though)
15:33  Wooble> Cam: if you want a timer in a single-threaded program with no event loop that just responds to input on a socket and blocks waiting for more, you're going to be disappointed.
15:33  dash> Cam: Maybe we're wrong! But disliking our opinions isn't going to change them
15:33 (*) yamad [~yamad@dhcp-10-157.harvard.edu] has joined #python
15:33  Cam> I can't respond to all of these..
15:33  werneck> Cam: people can't help you if they don't know what you want to do... I want to help you but I don't know what you're doing... can you clarify that or you expect me to be psychic too?
15:33  nosklo> yeah, ask on SO - that Martelli guy will answer you right away
15:33  dash> Cam: yeah it's a mess
15:33  papna> Cam: You don't know enough about this to know how to solve it well.
15:33  dash> Cam: sorry, 900 people can be loud
15:33 (*) Cam pops
15:33  ssbr_> nosklo: maybe someday he will be permabanned!
15:33  ssbr_> nosklo: more realistically, maybe, I don't know, ghostdog or something
15:33  dash> woah
15:33  dash> 952 users?
15:33  ssbr_> as soon as you have a guy with 20k with an average answer rating of -2, SO will go "wait a second..."
15:33  dash> #python is the cancer destroying freenode
15:34 (*) ikanobori looks sternly at dash
15:34  zimmermanc> wat
15:34  ssbr_> dash: damn it, don't say anything until it reaches 1000
15:34 (*) kmcb [~kmcb@173-15-128-34-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #python
15:34 (*) dom96 [~dom96@host86-183-249-188.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #python
15:34  Cam> ssbr_: I just want someone to suggest "threads" or something.
15:34  ssbr_> Cam: why?
15:34  papna> hahaha
15:34 (*) devin_s is now known as devin_s_afk
15:34  Cam> ssbr_: Because that's an answer OTHER THAN Twisted!
15:34  ssbr_> Cam: because it would be the stupidest of stupid answers and you could laugh at them?
15:34  Cam> That's all I want.
15:34  _habnabit> Cam, you want people to give you shitty answers?
15:34  arkanes_> but its a bad answer
15:34  dash> Cam: you can't always get what you want.
15:34  Cam> ssbr_: It's an example.
15:34  programble> Cam: look in #botters, they are more helpful
15:34  arkanes_> you can write your own bad solutions to problems
15:34  ssbr_> Cam: it's an example... of a crappy answer.
15:34  ssbr_> Cam: Why do you want bad answers rather than a monopoly of good answers?
15:35  Cam> dash: All I ask for is an answer other than Twisted, if you don't have an answer other than that, don't respond!
15:35  Cam> ssbr_: ^
15:35  Cam> ssbr_: Because it's not twisted.
15:35  thrashold> Cam: You said "without threads", though :P
15:35 (*) Xanthine [~xxxanthin@blk-7-130-15.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:35  _habnabit> Cam, if you want people who will help you write shitty software and also have an irrational fear of hatred, try #freecodeteam.
15:35  Cam> thrashold: I know.
15:35  ssbr_> Cam: you're complaining about the lovely palace you are in, because your butler won't kick you in the balls when you ask him to
15:35 (*) trsh [trsh@93-138-2-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #python
15:35  Cam> ssbr_: What the hell are you talking about?
15:35  ssbr_> Cam: the butler's job is not to hurt you by doing bad things.
15:35  arkanes_> why is it so prevalent that people will ask about problems they dont understand, and then assume that they know enough to dictate the solution?
15:35  programble> you know, you guys, someone could ask "How do I put on a condom?" in here and you'd all answer "Use twisted"
15:35  Cam> programble: Hahaha
15:35  ssbr_> Cam: I am saying that we are giving you a good answer and you're rejecting it for no good reason, and saying that we should give you bad answers instead.
15:36  arkanes_> maybe if you had a reason you didn't want to use twisted
15:36  Cam> ssbr_: I recognize that it is a good answer, there are other good answers though, I know it.
15:36  arkanes_> a good reason, I mean, not a bad one
15:36  dash> Cam: How do you know?
15:36  ssbr_> Cam: Why do you say that?
15:36  Cam> dash: Because there is always more than one way to od something
15:36  Cam> ssbr_: ^
15:36 (*) programble is surprised no one told him to use twisted yesterday when he asked about select()
15:36  ssbr_> Cam: so far the only alternatives you've given have been bad.
15:36 (*) Harpyon [~HP@ti0031a380-0499.bb.online.no] has joined #python
15:36  ssbr_> Cam: So what?
15:36  thrashold> programble: I've found that's the best way to do that, though. All my Jabber transports are using twisted, and some of them are precursors to putting on a condom.
15:36  ssbr_> Cam: that doesn't mean they're all good.
15:36  ssbr_> Cam: in fact, sometimes they're all bad.
15:36  Cam> ssbr_: Okay, but they all work.
15:36 (*) screen-x [~screen-x@91.84.155.61] has left #python []
15:36  Cam> ssbr_: Twisted had to have used bad methods then
15:37  Cam> Right?
15:37  programble> thrashold: what i mean is, no matter what the question, the answer is the same
15:37  ssbr_> Cam: for varying interpretations of "work". They will break sometimes.
15:37  programble> oh, wait, someone did tell me to use twisted yesterday
15:37  thrashold> Cam: It has done the ugly part so you don't have to reimplement it.
15:37  programble> i ignored them
15:37  ssbr_> programble: Wrong.
15:37  dash> Cam: are you familiar with the Python slogan "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it"? :)
15:37  Wooble> Cam: "there is always more than one way to od something" is perl thinking :P
15:37  Cam> thrashold: Then I want to do the ugly stuff too!
15:37  Cam> dash: Yes.
15:37  arkanes_> Cam: why?
15:37 (*) nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has left #python ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]
15:37  ssbr_> programble: if you asked me, "how do I create a game in Python", I'd recommend pygame and pyglet and cocos2d.
15:37  papna> Cam: Sounds like you should study twisted.
15:37  _habnabit> Cam, I already gave you an answer you want.
15:37  programble> ssbr_: every question i ever asked in here was answered like that
15:37  Cam> arkanes_: If they did it, why can't i?
15:37 (*) elfgoh [~dingding@adsl178.dyn212.pacific.net.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:37  arkanes_> Cam: because they had a reason to do it, and you dont
15:37  ssbr_> programble: because you are only doing things for which the best way is Twisted.
15:37  programble> of course, i am interested in the internets
15:37  _habnabit> Cam, do you have me on /ignore or something?
15:37  ssbr_> programble: but Twisted doesn't do everything.
15:38  Cam> arkanes_: The same reason as them, I want to make an IRC bot.
15:38  Cam> _habnabit: I wish.
15:38 (*) Acedip [~ani@fedora/Acedip] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:38  arkanes_> Cam: thats not why twisted exists, though
15:38  Cam> _habnabit: Nothing personal, you joined the fight late.
15:38  programble> for the record, twisted docs suck
15:38  Cam> arkanes_: If they used something, why not recommend itt o me?
15:38  arkanes_> Cam: if you want to make an IRC bot, then you should do that
15:38  programble> they dont even have docs
15:38  _habnabit> Cam, I'm not fighting at all. I gave you a recommendation.
15:38  ssbr_> programble: for the record, they need help writing docs. File some patches.
15:38 (*) mode/#python [+o dash] by ChanServ
15:38  programble> they just have a few examples
15:38 (*) programble was kicked from #python by dash [enough noise]
15:38  Cam> _habnabit: I missed it, sorry.
15:38 (*) mode/#python [+b *!*curtis@*] by dash
15:38  Cam> Am I next?
15:38  _habnabit> 12:35:17 < _habnabit> Cam, if you want people who will help you write shitty software and also have an irrational fear  of hatred, try #freecodeteam.
15:39 (*) mode/#python [-o dash] by dash
15:39  Cam> _habnabit: thank you.
15:39  Cam> dash: Why not kick me?
15:39 (*) DasIch_ [~DasIch@p5DC5F011.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #python
15:39  arkanes_> well, you are making a lot of noise and youv'e gotten a lot of answers to your questions
15:39  dash> Cam: I wouldn't ban someone who was having an actual conversation.
15:39  ssbr_> Cam: because you aren't trolling
15:39  seen_> Cam: for a low-level approach take a look at gevent
15:39  Cam> Ok.
15:39  Cam> seen_: Thanks.
15:39  ssbr_> Cam: the other guy basically came in, called #python crap, started railing on Twisted
15:39  dash> seen_: ugh :(
15:39  ssbr_> Cam: hardly a good way to not get banned
15:39  Cam> Is gevent a way to time a function?
15:39  arkanes_> Cam: there's more man-hours in a high quality event loop and networking library than you've been a live
15:40  Cam> arkanes_: I am sure, I want to make a SIMPLE one of my own.
15:40  seen_> Cam: no
15:40  ssbr_> Cam: you mean, you want to make a bad one
15:40  Cam> arkanes_: Give me the name of a library and I will use it
15:40  Cam> ssbr_: I didn't mean that ^
15:40  ssbr_> Cam: Twisted
15:40  arkanes_> Cam: writing one from scratch wont teach you much about how to write a good one. It'd be like learning architecture by building bike sheds. Working with and improving an existing one is how you learn about these thingsd
15:40  arkanes_> Cam: twisted
15:40  Cam> ssbr_: Other than twisted.
15:40  Cam> NO!
15:40  ssbr_> Cam: that's not what you said
15:40  ssbr_> <Cam> arkanes_: Give me the name of a library and I will use it
15:40  arkanes_> you kinda walked into that one
15:40  ssbr_> Twisted.
15:40  Cam> Bahh....
15:40 (*) jcreigh [~jason@72-160-63-13.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #python
15:40  Cam> Any other ones?
15:40  Cam> If not, I am making my own.
15:40  dash> Cam: Why? :)
15:40  ssbr_> Cam: see I don't understand that.
15:41  Cam> dash: Because I don't want to use twisted!
15:41  arkanes_> well, we can't stop you
15:41 (*) habnabit [~habnabit@166.205.141.111] has joined #python
15:41  Cam> arkanes_: So why not help me?
15:41  ssbr_> Cam: Why?
15:41  papna> Cam: You don't know enough to make a good one, it is clear.
15:41  arkanes_> but I'm sure by now you understand why we dont want to help?
15:41  dash> Cam: i'm way ahead of you
15:41  papna> Cam: arkanes_ is trying to help you.
15:41  arkanes_> Cam: we just spent 20 minutes explaining our motivations
15:41  dash> Cam: i don't really like twisted _or_ python
15:41  Cam> One replay at a time
15:41  Cam> come on
15:41  ssbr_> Hey, can somebody fork Twisted and give it to Cam?
15:41  dash> Cam: so i'm working on a new language
15:41  ssbr_> It's definitely the best route.
15:41  dash> Cam: that has its own, better, networking library.
15:41  Cam> dash: Email me when you're done.
15:41  ssbr_> Cam: software is never "done"
15:41  dash> Cam: That'll be really hard
15:41  Cam> ssbr_: Ok?
15:41  dash> Cam: i'll be dead by then.
15:42 (*) lucalenardi [~lucalenar@host177-66-static.51-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: lucalenardi]
15:42  Cam> dash: Oh.
15:42 (*) Milos|Laptop [~Milos@60-234-198-177.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #python
15:42  ssbr_> Cam: the point being that he'll never email you, even when it's the best solution out there. :)
15:42  Cam> Oh, o.
15:42  Cam> ssbr_: What did twisted use for even handling?
15:42  dash> Cam: Hopefully not soon, but still. ;)
15:42  Cam> Do you know off the top of your head?
15:42  Cam> dash: :)
15:42 (*) Kaedenn [~Kaedenn@unaffiliated/kaedenn] has joined #python
15:42  dash> Cam: select, poll, epoll, kqueue, iocp
15:42  ssbr_> Cam: uh, it is an event handling framework
15:42  dash> Cam: select is the default.
15:42  Cam> dash: That's perfect then.
15:42  ssbr_> dash: isn't that how it gets events?
15:42 (*) DasIch [~DasIch@p5DC5F503.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:42 (*) zsquareplusc [~zsquarepl@unaffiliated/zsquareplusc] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100402010516]]
15:42  Cam> That's all I wanted.
15:42  Cam> Someone to say select.
15:43  dash> ssbr_: language! it's imprecise.
15:43 (*) aliceinwire is now known as n1ckname
15:43  dash> Cam: don't write your own select loop, though.
15:43  Cam> dash: Too late, I am going to try.
15:43  thrashold> Cam: I think I said that
15:43  dash> Cam: have fun, I guess.
15:43  Cam> thrashold: oh, I missed that, sorry.
15:43  Cam> dash: Thanks so much.
15:43 (*) DasIch_ is now known as DasIch
15:43  papna> Cam: You need to know more than you currently do before you can do it well.
15:43 (*) Betamonkey [Roo@144.134.239.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:43  ssbr_> I cannot understand how people can be so stubbornly evil.
15:43 (*) amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FF028AD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #python
15:43  Cam> papna: I am going to go read the docs for select.
15:43  papna> Cam: You'll be reading the wrong stuff.
15:43  dash> ssbr_: it's what people are like.
15:43  Cam> ssbr_: I am like the bane of #python (nobody ban on that pls.. that's not nice)
15:43  Cam> papna: why?
15:44 (*) kkris| [~kkris|@80-123-36-115.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #python
15:44  ssbr_> Cam: that doesn't mean you should be so dead-set on writing bad software
15:44  Cam> ssbr_: I am not.
15:44  ssbr_> Cam: then why are you reinventing the wheel, badly?
15:44  Cam> ssbr_: Chances are, I will finish this, or go as far as I can and then convert to twisted.
15:44  ssbr_> Cam: keep in mind that the effort involved in reinventing it well is more than you possess
15:44 (*) wvd [~wvd@unaffiliated/williej] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:44  Cam> ssbr_: Because twisted keeps trying to sell me a metal wheel, and I want a f*cking wooden one.
15:44  ssbr_> Cam: so by reinventing it you necessarily commit yourself to writing bad software
15:44  ssbr_> Cam: so patch Twisted
15:44  Cam> I don't care if the wooden one will break.
15:44  ssbr_> Cam: it's not so hard.
15:45  Cam> ssbr_: What if I make a library better than twisted?
15:45  Cam> What if that is my goal?
15:45 (*) rsFF [~rsFF@81.193.23.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:45  arkanes_> you don't learn by writing bad things
15:45  ssbr_> Cam: Fork Twisted.
15:45  ssbr_> Cam: that's the best way to achieve this goal.
15:45  dash> Cam: then don't tell us you're trying to write an irc bot :)
15:45  Cam> If everyone uses twisted, nobody will start from scratch and do better than twisted.
15:45  arkanes_> Cam: if you could do it, you'd know enough that you wouldn't be talking to us abou tit
15:45  thrashold> Cam: You have three free lifetimes?
15:45 (*) Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""]
15:45  dash> Cam: writing a better library than twisted would be pretty great
15:45  Cam> thrashold: Yes.
15:45 (*) iElectric [~ie@85.110.240.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:45  arkanes_> they might
15:45  Zal> patching twisted is a lot harder if you don't know how to use the low-level tools it uses.
15:45  papna> Cam: If you asked me how to build a table, I might tell you to use a radial arm saw. You could go read the manual to the radial arm saw, but that wouldn't teach you the actual carpentry skills that it takes to build a table. You need to have the right ideas to know where to cut to use the tool.
15:45  arkanes_> but they'd know how to do it
15:45  dash> Cam: but you have to understand why twisted is bad, first
15:45  dash> Cam: and to do that, you have to understand how it's good.
15:45  Cam> papna: Great analogy
15:46 (*) devin_s_afk is now known as devin_s
15:46  arkanes_> yes, it is great
15:46  arkanes_> because radial arm saws are the wrong tools for making a table
15:46  Cam> Hahahah
15:46  arkanes_> and you don't know that
15:46  Zal> sure, and building a table with nothing but handtools is a beautiful and rewarding experience too
15:46  Cam> You're right. I don't know.
15:46  Cam> Zal: There's another reason.
15:46 (*) Walt [~Walt@c-4f662b62-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:46  Zal> Cam, yep, lots of possible reasons, I'm certain
15:46  arkanes_> and you can learn that by cutting your thumbs off with a saw, or by learning from someone who does know how to make tables
15:46  Cam> It turns me pink with happiness when I realize I did this without twisted.
15:46  papna> arkanes_: It would take many tools. A radial arm saw could be useful at several junctures.
15:46  ssbr_> Cam: you have the wrong motivations then
15:47  dash> Zal: in a world where most tables fall over when you put stuff on top, people asking for help making a table by hand might be viewed with a certain level of suspicion
15:47  Zal> Cam, right, that's part of "rewarding" :-)
15:47  arkanes_> papna: yes, I'm speaking in broad generalities
15:47  Cam> ssbr_: Ok.
15:47  dash> Cam: #python cares nothing for your happiness
15:47 (*) rsFF [~rsFF@81.193.17.251] has joined #python
15:47  Cam> dash: So I see.
15:47  papna> arkanes_: Oh. I thought you were just disagreeing.
15:47  ssbr_> Cam: a man walks along and kicks a dog. A bystander asks why he did that. "Because it made me feel better!"
15:47 (*) dom96 [~dom96@host86-183-249-188.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has left #python ["Leaving"]
15:47  dash> Cam: ;-)
15:47  Cam> ssbr_: 
15:47  Zal> dash, sure, if you're the suspicious type
15:47  ssbr_> Cam: we could say "don't do things that make you feel better", or we can say "change what makes you feel better"
15:47 (*) kosh sets Cam on fire
15:47 (*) Cam doesn
15:47  ssbr_> Cam: so learn to love creating great software, instead of to love avoiding useful tools
15:48 (*) Cam doesn't give a damn
15:48  Cam> To kosh
15:48  Cam> ssbr_: I do love creating software.
15:48  thrashold> Cam: Don't worry, he sets everybody on fire :P
15:48  Cam> ssbr_: I love it so much that I don't want to polute it with twisted.
15:48  ssbr_> Cam: *great* software.
15:48  Slade-> yea kosh is trendy that way
15:48  Cam> thrashold: ok
15:48  Cam> ssbr_: Mine is *great*
15:48  Zal> dash, I'm *much* more suspicious of anyone telling me THE right way to do something.
15:48  Cam> But it still needs help
15:48  ssbr_> Cam: sorry, that argument's not going to work. Because your alternative is to pollute it with something worse than Twisted.
15:48  Cam> ssbr_: In your opinion.
15:49  dash> Zal: well then, don't ask what the right way to do it is. ;)
15:49 (*) HerbMonk [~herbmonk@76-255-181-35.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:49 (*) woodworks [woodworks@17.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has quit []
15:49  ssbr_> Cam: Mine and nearly everyone else you've talked to so far, I think. Backed up by empirical data on the quality of Twisted "replacement" code.
15:49  Cam> I must go, does anyone mind me posting this as a log?
15:49 (*) Sentynel [~sentynel@unaffiliated/sentynel] has joined #python
15:49  dash> Cam: #python is for helping people write better programs.
15:49  thrashold> Cam: Show us some code from that bot to convince us it's not worse? :P
15:49  Cam> thrashold: print "cam"
15:49  dash> Cam: You have other goals besides writing better programs.
15:49  Cam> dash: Sure
15:50  Cam> I really have to go.
15:50  ssbr_> Cam: I would object to you posting logs in out-of-context segments.
15:50  ssbr_> Otherwise, don't care.,
15:50  Cam> ssbr_: I will post the whole thing.
15:50  Cam> If you want I will exclude your name. 
15:50 (*) ambroff [~ambroff@65-113-99-90.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
15:50  Zal> dash, hm, I'm pretty sure Cam asked about a "method other than Twisted"
15:50  Cam> I can replace it with anything.
15:50  ssbr_> No, that's fine.
15:50  Cam> Thanks