EvanCarroll/discord-convo.txt

## discord-convo.txt
Discord Conversation from network
====

[10:50 PM]Evan Carroll: I recently was suspended for this comment, I would like to know why?

Just so you know the origin story there: AFAIK Codidact came out of the Monica affair on StackExchange. Which was basically a conservative Jew that pulled a Jordan Peterson and claimed that a CoC that prevented her from harassing others with pronouns they found offensive was limiting her free speech. It came out of a desire not to be limited by a CoC. I can't go for that, but I'm glad the people that went there left!  @effendiian@masto.nyc

The reason was this,

Your posts were reported for providing false information. After looking into it, we've decided to freeze your account. Please read on for additional information about why and how you can reverse this.

Why was it determined that this information was false? Moreover, why are we banning people for "false information"? The transcripts were leaked. In the original complaint, she refused to use the pronoun "they" because she claimed she didn't believe in the plural they. She was suspended for this. The proposed CoC which she objected was amended to read "Use stated pronouns (when known). When in doubt, don't use language that might offend or alienate."

Because of her, it was instead rewritten to "no bigotry." She left and many other reactionaries did at the same time, for example -- this mod from Christianity.SE, https://christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/q/6718/712
Christianity Meta Stack Exchange
Brothers, I must go…
In the beginning

8 years, 1 month, and 6 days ago –at something between 2 and 3am– in the first few hours of this site being launched I signed up from a mobile phone browser¹ and was assigned acco...
Image
[11:06 PM]Evan Carroll: I don't tihnk I'm "being a dick" there. I previously asked what kind of stuff would get me suspended from Hachyderm. I was told explicitly just don't be a dick: ⁠💬-general⁠ The only reason why I said "conservative Jew" is because that's the community she moderates, and typically religious communities are not known for being the most trans-inclusive. It was the religious StackExchanges that made a gigantic episode about the pronouns, and it adds context to say that this was a moderator of judaism.stackexchange.com. When she was asked to defend her position on pronouns, she rage quit and wasn't seen about for weeks. https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/q/5193/2504 But the claims there is pretty small.

* Codidact grew or came out of the Monica incident on StackExchange, she even went to go work with them.
* She is a conservative Jew and moderates the judaism.stackexchange.com.
* She claimed the wording proposed in the CoC would "coerce speach".
* She said "singular they" makes her head explode, or something along those lines and rejected using it.
* No one ever raised an issue with a consistent use of speach without pronouns, she just made that up.

Mi Yodeya Meta
Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel
On Friday, half an hour before Shabbat and two days before Rosh Hashana, Stack Overflow Inc. suddenly revoked my moderator status on all sites where I had it. I found this out while handling flags...
Image

[1:20 PM]Evan Carroll: I really hate getting suspended for this. I came here because this Mastadon instance is supposed to be progressive. And here I am getting suspended for pointing out that codidact.com spun up as (or was fueled by) a reaction to a Code of Conduct which was viewed as too progressive during the Reinstate Monica strike which phrased the CoC as being "coercive speech." Can someone please help me out here. I specifically asked if I could use this network as a home for political speach too, and was told this was the progressive Mastadon instance. I'm open to talking about this. I don't feel like I was being a dick though, which was what I agreed to. Does anyone think I was being a dick or trolling?
[1:44 PM]Hachyderm Maintainers: Hello! A few things:

Your account is not suspended. It is frozen, as to keep your posts and follows / following / etc. intact, with instructions included for what to do to Appeal and have your account unfrozen in the email. You only included the first line of the email, but there is significantly more information in there. Also in the email is a link to our docs for how to manage Appeals, which we will also include at the end of this message.
In all our moderation emails, we include what you were reported for and what you are asked to change . While there is frequently overlap here, that is not always the case. It is also not the case here, as the email details. We can discuss this further, using the methods described in the Appeals process.
This is the Nivenly Community Discord, and is not an appropriate path to communicate with the Hachyderm moderation team. Although we have a Hachyderm project account here, and while there are Hachyderm channels in the project channels the same as other Nivenly projects and topics, this is not a Hachyderm specific Discord.  We clearly detail how to communicate with the Hachyderm moderation team in Hachyderm's docs and comms. While we welcome communication, and open communication, about moderation questions and concerns, you will need to use Hachyderm's defined project comms to do so.

We reviewed your situation and see that you did file an Appeal, but not with any of the information requested including the commitment to change, which is central to ethos of the Hachyderm project. It is important to all of us to learn and grow so we are all always improving. At this point, we will need you to email us at admin@hachyderm.io in order to continue a dialog.

https://community.hachyderm.io/docs/moderation/actions-and-appeals/
Moderation Actions and Appeals Process
Information about the different actions that moderators take and what to do if you've been moderated.
[1:46 PM]Evan Carroll: But that's not what I signed up to when I joined. I want to apeal this on the merits. What I was told was, (and only this)

* You commit to remove this and any other posts relating to Stack Overflow and Monica Carrol.
* You commit to keeping discussions relevant to that off Hachyderm


Why can't I have that discussion on Monica Cellio suspension on the Hachyderm? Why can't I talk about a contemporary event on my Mastadon account? I am either on the right side of this or not? The movement that spun off Codiact was literally called #ReinstateMonica, she left and joined it and started a new Judaism.Codiact and then worked out the strategy to popularize the codiact network -- by uniting other religious communities like Christianity.Codiact. The appeal didn't ask for any information it asked me to be silent on this topic. That's concerning for me. I would prefer not to be silent on this. I feel Codiact is a reaction to a progressive CoC.
[1:50 PM]Evan Carroll: Not to mention. On the matter of StackOverflow, if you look at my account you'll see that I'm frequently engaged with Jeff Atwood of stackoverflow. We follow each other. He was the old CEO. It seems weird I can't talk to him on Mastadon about SO.
[1:52 PM]Hachyderm Maintainers: That is still only a portion of the email you were sent. We detail why we asked for this, when we sent the email.

If and when you choose to share messaging, you should do it in full. So far you have neglected to mention you were reported for misinformation but found to have been making posts that 1 ) lacked nuance and 2 ) presented yourself as an authority on the matter. We asked you to cease these as well.

We have always had an open path to resolution for situations like these. Typically, Hachydermians will use the requested comms paths to either agree (if they do) or disagree, and tell us why. You are choosing to do neither.

As mentioned, repeatedly, this is not a path to comms for moderation issues. Continuing to post here will not give you the resolution you are hoping for, and will not result in unfreezing your account.

We have notified the Nivenly Discord Moderation team, as they are separate from Hachyderm Moderation, so they are aware.

We will restate that the only way to get resolution at this point is to email us as requested, and to discuss as requested. Stating it again, continuing to post messages about a Hachyderm issue on a place that is not Hachyderm's will not resolve the issue you are experiencing.
[1:55 PM]Evan Carroll: Please feel free to share all of the messages on my account, or talk publicly about all of it. I tried to paste the whole thing -- Discord wouldn't let me. My argument is mostly about the two bullets.  But just to be clear, I approve you to share correspondence with me or my account. I don't have anything to hide.

Full message: https://gist.github.com/EvanCarroll/36b6930f9617f355dbe138902c8cdc74
Gist
Suspension message from hachyderm.io
Suspension message from hachyderm.io. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
Suspension message from hachyderm.io
[1:56 PM]Evan Carroll: I didn't present myself as an authority. I think I cited everything in my appeal. If anything isn't cited, please tell me what needs to be cited. Though I don't feel I should have to cite anything, I'm glad to do that because I didn't make any of it up. 🙂
[2:16 PM]Hachyderm Maintainers: Hachyderm moderation will only be able to respond to you using the moderation process, as defined above and in email. Have a nice day.

## hachyderm-deadline-and-appeal.md

      
    Raw
  

              hachyderm-deadline-and-appeal.md
            
          
    We've reviewed your interactions on the Nivenly Discord, as well as the original report submission. Although the original infraction was minor, it is our determination that based on your actions that our server ethos and process is not a good fit for your needs. You have indicated an interest in potentially migrating to another server or hosting your own, we will leave your account frozen until next Wednesday, 26 July, so that you can migrate. If your account is not migrated, we will suspend your account at that time.
The Hachyderm Mods

Hello,
We are unwilling to discuss our moderation decisions in this matter with you further.
We are willing to leave your account frozen to download your data and migrate. We can extend your grace period to 17 Aug.
The Hachyderm Mods

Thanks a ton. Really appreciate it! I'll be out by then, buying hardware now. I'm leaving the door open to further discussion if anyone wants to ping me on Discord or talk about it, I'm always there. Still not sure what happened, or why I can't defend these statements on the grounds of inclusivity and factual accuracy. But I'm down with the new deadline and will respect it.

  
## hachyderm-suspension-email.txt
You can no longer use your account, but your profile and other data remains intact. You can request a backup of your data, change account settings or delete your account.

Hello,

Your posts were reported for providing false information. After looking into it, we've decided to freeze your account. Please read on for additional information about why and how you can reverse this.

After looking at your posts we needed to do research in order to determine if 1 ) the posts were factual and 2 ) if there was a reasonable expectation that someone posting would or would not know if that is the case. (The differentiating factor of "is this misinformation" or "mistake" is whether the information is expected to be known.) After researching the issue, we found that there was some nuance that was lacking. Although there is not a reasonable expectation that someone would know about this case in particular, the degree that you dived into the situation would suggest that you have insider knowledge which may not be the case.

In order to restore normal functioning of your account we ask that:

* You commit to remove this and any other posts relating to Stack Overflow and Monica Carrol.
* You commit to keeping discussions relevant to that off Hachyderm

Once you have read and decided to commit to the above, please file an Appeal stating both commitments. Once you have done so, you must delete the relevant posts within 24 h after your account has been restored.

For information about the Appeals process, please see our documentation:

https://community.hachyderm.io/docs/moderation/actions-and-appeals/

Thank you,

The Hachyderm Mods

Posts cited:

Just so you know the origin story there: AFAIK Codidact came out of the Monica affair on StackExchange. Which was basically a conservative Jew that pulled a Jordan Peterson and claimed that a CoC that prevented her from harassing others with pronouns they found offensive was limiting her free speech. It came out of a desire not to be limited by a CoC. I can't go for that, but I'm glad the people that went there left! @effendiian@masto.nyc
July 5, 2023 at 12:45 PM · Web
	Discord Conversation from network
	====

	[10:50 PM]Evan Carroll: I recently was suspended for this comment, I would like to know why?

	Just so you know the origin story there: AFAIK Codidact came out of the Monica affair on StackExchange. Which was basically a conservative Jew that pulled a Jordan Peterson and claimed that a CoC that prevented her from harassing others with pronouns they found offensive was limiting her free speech. It came out of a desire not to be limited by a CoC. I can't go for that, but I'm glad the people that went there left! @effendiian@masto.nyc

	The reason was this,

	Your posts were reported for providing false information. After looking into it, we've decided to freeze your account. Please read on for additional information about why and how you can reverse this.

	Why was it determined that this information was false? Moreover, why are we banning people for "false information"? The transcripts were leaked. In the original complaint, she refused to use the pronoun "they" because she claimed she didn't believe in the plural they. She was suspended for this. The proposed CoC which she objected was amended to read "Use stated pronouns (when known). When in doubt, don't use language that might offend or alienate."

	Because of her, it was instead rewritten to "no bigotry." She left and many other reactionaries did at the same time, for example -- this mod from Christianity.SE, https://christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/q/6718/712
	Christianity Meta Stack Exchange
	Brothers, I must go…
	In the beginning

	8 years, 1 month, and 6 days ago –at something between 2 and 3am– in the first few hours of this site being launched I signed up from a mobile phone browser¹ and was assigned acco...
	Image
	[11:06 PM]Evan Carroll: I don't tihnk I'm "being a dick" there. I previously asked what kind of stuff would get me suspended from Hachyderm. I was told explicitly just don't be a dick: ⁠💬-general⁠ The only reason why I said "conservative Jew" is because that's the community she moderates, and typically religious communities are not known for being the most trans-inclusive. It was the religious StackExchanges that made a gigantic episode about the pronouns, and it adds context to say that this was a moderator of judaism.stackexchange.com. When she was asked to defend her position on pronouns, she rage quit and wasn't seen about for weeks. https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/q/5193/2504 But the claims there is pretty small.

	* Codidact grew or came out of the Monica incident on StackExchange, she even went to go work with them.
	* She is a conservative Jew and moderates the judaism.stackexchange.com.
	* She claimed the wording proposed in the CoC would "coerce speach".
	* She said "singular they" makes her head explode, or something along those lines and rejected using it.
	* No one ever raised an issue with a consistent use of speach without pronouns, she just made that up.

	Mi Yodeya Meta
	Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel
	On Friday, half an hour before Shabbat and two days before Rosh Hashana, Stack Overflow Inc. suddenly revoked my moderator status on all sites where I had it. I found this out while handling flags...
	Image

	[1:20 PM]Evan Carroll: I really hate getting suspended for this. I came here because this Mastadon instance is supposed to be progressive. And here I am getting suspended for pointing out that codidact.com spun up as (or was fueled by) a reaction to a Code of Conduct which was viewed as too progressive during the Reinstate Monica strike which phrased the CoC as being "coercive speech." Can someone please help me out here. I specifically asked if I could use this network as a home for political speach too, and was told this was the progressive Mastadon instance. I'm open to talking about this. I don't feel like I was being a dick though, which was what I agreed to. Does anyone think I was being a dick or trolling?
	[1:44 PM]Hachyderm Maintainers: Hello! A few things:

	Your account is not suspended. It is frozen, as to keep your posts and follows / following / etc. intact, with instructions included for what to do to Appeal and have your account unfrozen in the email. You only included the first line of the email, but there is significantly more information in there. Also in the email is a link to our docs for how to manage Appeals, which we will also include at the end of this message.
	In all our moderation emails, we include what you were reported for and what you are asked to change . While there is frequently overlap here, that is not always the case. It is also not the case here, as the email details. We can discuss this further, using the methods described in the Appeals process.
	This is the Nivenly Community Discord, and is not an appropriate path to communicate with the Hachyderm moderation team. Although we have a Hachyderm project account here, and while there are Hachyderm channels in the project channels the same as other Nivenly projects and topics, this is not a Hachyderm specific Discord. We clearly detail how to communicate with the Hachyderm moderation team in Hachyderm's docs and comms. While we welcome communication, and open communication, about moderation questions and concerns, you will need to use Hachyderm's defined project comms to do so.

	We reviewed your situation and see that you did file an Appeal, but not with any of the information requested including the commitment to change, which is central to ethos of the Hachyderm project. It is important to all of us to learn and grow so we are all always improving. At this point, we will need you to email us at admin@hachyderm.io in order to continue a dialog.

	https://community.hachyderm.io/docs/moderation/actions-and-appeals/
	Moderation Actions and Appeals Process
	Information about the different actions that moderators take and what to do if you've been moderated.
	[1:46 PM]Evan Carroll: But that's not what I signed up to when I joined. I want to apeal this on the merits. What I was told was, (and only this)

	* You commit to remove this and any other posts relating to Stack Overflow and Monica Carrol.
	* You commit to keeping discussions relevant to that off Hachyderm


	Why can't I have that discussion on Monica Cellio suspension on the Hachyderm? Why can't I talk about a contemporary event on my Mastadon account? I am either on the right side of this or not? The movement that spun off Codiact was literally called #ReinstateMonica, she left and joined it and started a new Judaism.Codiact and then worked out the strategy to popularize the codiact network -- by uniting other religious communities like Christianity.Codiact. The appeal didn't ask for any information it asked me to be silent on this topic. That's concerning for me. I would prefer not to be silent on this. I feel Codiact is a reaction to a progressive CoC.
	[1:50 PM]Evan Carroll: Not to mention. On the matter of StackOverflow, if you look at my account you'll see that I'm frequently engaged with Jeff Atwood of stackoverflow. We follow each other. He was the old CEO. It seems weird I can't talk to him on Mastadon about SO.
	[1:52 PM]Hachyderm Maintainers: That is still only a portion of the email you were sent. We detail why we asked for this, when we sent the email.

	If and when you choose to share messaging, you should do it in full. So far you have neglected to mention you were reported for misinformation but found to have been making posts that 1 ) lacked nuance and 2 ) presented yourself as an authority on the matter. We asked you to cease these as well.

	We have always had an open path to resolution for situations like these. Typically, Hachydermians will use the requested comms paths to either agree (if they do) or disagree, and tell us why. You are choosing to do neither.

	As mentioned, repeatedly, this is not a path to comms for moderation issues. Continuing to post here will not give you the resolution you are hoping for, and will not result in unfreezing your account.

	We have notified the Nivenly Discord Moderation team, as they are separate from Hachyderm Moderation, so they are aware.

	We will restate that the only way to get resolution at this point is to email us as requested, and to discuss as requested. Stating it again, continuing to post messages about a Hachyderm issue on a place that is not Hachyderm's will not resolve the issue you are experiencing.
	[1:55 PM]Evan Carroll: Please feel free to share all of the messages on my account, or talk publicly about all of it. I tried to paste the whole thing -- Discord wouldn't let me. My argument is mostly about the two bullets. But just to be clear, I approve you to share correspondence with me or my account. I don't have anything to hide.

	Full message: https://gist.github.com/EvanCarroll/36b6930f9617f355dbe138902c8cdc74
	Gist
	Suspension message from hachyderm.io
	Suspension message from hachyderm.io. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
	Suspension message from hachyderm.io
	[1:56 PM]Evan Carroll: I didn't present myself as an authority. I think I cited everything in my appeal. If anything isn't cited, please tell me what needs to be cited. Though I don't feel I should have to cite anything, I'm glad to do that because I didn't make any of it up. 🙂
	[2:16 PM]Hachyderm Maintainers: Hachyderm moderation will only be able to respond to you using the moderation process, as defined above and in email. Have a nice day.
	You can no longer use your account, but your profile and other data remains intact. You can request a backup of your data, change account settings or delete your account.

	Hello,

	Your posts were reported for providing false information. After looking into it, we've decided to freeze your account. Please read on for additional information about why and how you can reverse this.

	After looking at your posts we needed to do research in order to determine if 1 ) the posts were factual and 2 ) if there was a reasonable expectation that someone posting would or would not know if that is the case. (The differentiating factor of "is this misinformation" or "mistake" is whether the information is expected to be known.) After researching the issue, we found that there was some nuance that was lacking. Although there is not a reasonable expectation that someone would know about this case in particular, the degree that you dived into the situation would suggest that you have insider knowledge which may not be the case.

	In order to restore normal functioning of your account we ask that:

	* You commit to remove this and any other posts relating to Stack Overflow and Monica Carrol.
	* You commit to keeping discussions relevant to that off Hachyderm

	Once you have read and decided to commit to the above, please file an Appeal stating both commitments. Once you have done so, you must delete the relevant posts within 24 h after your account has been restored.

	For information about the Appeals process, please see our documentation:

	https://community.hachyderm.io/docs/moderation/actions-and-appeals/

	Thank you,

	The Hachyderm Mods

	Posts cited:

	Just so you know the origin story there: AFAIK Codidact came out of the Monica affair on StackExchange. Which was basically a conservative Jew that pulled a Jordan Peterson and claimed that a CoC that prevented her from harassing others with pronouns they found offensive was limiting her free speech. It came out of a desire not to be limited by a CoC. I can't go for that, but I'm glad the people that went there left! @effendiian@masto.nyc
	July 5, 2023 at 12:45 PM · Web