buu defends the right to offend, worries about the slippery slope of a compassionate community

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 ~buu@doc-209-33-76-14.post.tx.cebridge.net (freenode)                                                                            
18:59 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with buu
18:59 <emilyrose> who do I speak to about being added to the access list for ##javascript?
18:59 <emilyrose> is that still you? :P
18:59 <buu> uh
18:59 <buu> Technically yes
18:59 <emilyrose> cool
18:59 <emilyrose> I'd like the ability to moderate the channel
19:00 <emilyrose> there are far too many trolls that seem to go unchecked
19:00 <emilyrose> and I have several years of experience
19:00 <emilyrose> `/msg chanserv access ##javascript add nexxy +AOefor` should do it
19:03 <buu> oh
19:03 <buu> Like who?
19:03 <emilyrose> as of right now Agamemnus is being extremely disruptive
19:04 <emilyrose> I would have had a private conversation with them by now if I was a moderator
19:04 <emilyrose> which has a fairly high success rate at preventing further issues
19:04 <emilyrose> I'm happy to provide references if you really need them
19:08 <emilyrose> gkatsev
19:08 <emilyrose> isaacs
19:08 <emilyrose> aria
19:09 <emilyrose> Sorella
19:09 <emilyrose> 4 folks that can attest to my ability as a moderator
19:09 <emilyrose> I await your reply
19:10 <emilyrose> I'm surprised by the fact that Agamemnus is a moderator
19:10 <emilyrose> they have been contributing to a hostile environment in the channel for at least a half hour now
19:14 <buu> Why don't you just have a private conversation with him without being a moderator?
19:14 <emilyrose> because he's not the only problem
19:14 <emilyrose> and I've asked you about this before
19:14 <emilyrose> you seem to not really care about the health of this channel
19:14 <emilyrose> I do
19:14 <emilyrose> so please
19:14 <emilyrose> let me help moderate it so it can be succesful and continue helping people
19:24 <buu> I care. Quite a lot actually. I've just yet to be convinced that what you're describing affects the health of the 
            channel.
19:25 <emilyrose> that's mindblowing to me
19:25 <emilyrose> your channel is one of the most toxic channels I've been in
19:25 <emilyrose> (short of #rails or #rubyonrails)
19:25 <buu> At the risk of normalizing behaviour, most of them are worse.
19:26 <emilyrose> does that make it OK to you?
19:29 <emilyrose> well I guess we will continue to have this conversation until you either make me a moderator or ban me from the 
                  channel
19:29 <buu> Good communication style.
19:30 <emilyrose> what do you mean by that?
19:30 <buu> Perhaps you could try rational and logical arguments.
19:30 <emilyrose> have you taken a look at what I've said in ##javascript?
19:30 <emilyrose> we've chatted before
19:30 <emilyrose> and last time you gave me the same runaround
19:30 <emilyrose> and things still haven't gotten any better
19:31 <emilyrose> every time I try to participate in the channel I am inundated with alienating behaviour
19:31 <emilyrose> is that OK?
19:33 <emilyrose> it's interesting to me that you employ a combination of stonewalling and passive-aggression
19:33 <emilyrose> whilst trying to imply that I'm being irrational or illogical
19:34 <buu> None of that is making concrete, factual or objective points.
19:34 <buu> Try starting with specific examples and changes you'd like to see.
19:34 <emilyrose> this is a conversation about people
19:34 <emilyrose> ok
19:34 <buu> Then justify it.
19:35 <emilyrose> 1) I'd like to see a code of conduct that is enforced
19:35 <emilyrose> 2) that code of conduct needs to include repercussions for people that don't abide
19:35 <emilyrose> 3) the code of conduct needs to explicitly state that behaviour that contributes to the alienation of 
                  participants is not tolerated
19:36 <buu> What exactly is alienation? Who decides that? What are the punishments?
19:36 <emilyrose> 4) operators of the channel should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us (not lower as is the case 
                  with Agamemnus)
19:36 <emilyrose> do you want me to paste a dictionary definition?
19:36 <emilyrose> when someone feels alienated
19:36 <emilyrose> and they voice it clearly and respectfully (as I have)
19:36 <emilyrose> *that* is alienation
19:37 <emilyrose> also, punishment is an inappropriate term
19:37 <emilyrose> the focus is on sustaining a positive community culture
19:38 <emilyrose> the way that happens in IRC is by making use of the access system provided by the network
19:38 <emilyrose> I can tell you how it works in #node.js if you're curious
19:38 <emilyrose> it's been very effective and has resulted in the vast majority of users self-policing
19:38 <emilyrose> and a drastic reduction in the necessity for moderator action
19:40 <emilyrose> so here's how things usually go in #node.js
19:41 <emilyrose> when someone is exhibiting behaviour that has been identified as harmful by an operator
19:41 <emilyrose> that operator will generally approach the user in private message
19:41 <emilyrose> and explain to them why their behaviour is problematic and what is expected of them (and everyone else)
19:41 <emilyrose> the vast majority of users never need any other intervention
19:41 <emilyrose> those that do are almost immediately identifiable by way of their inflammatory response
19:41 <emilyrose> those that escalate are kicked
19:42 <emilyrose> if they come back and continue they are then banned
19:42 <emilyrose> this happens very rarely
19:42 <emilyrose> and we have few instances of problematic behaviour going un-moderated
19:43 <emilyrose> this is with a moderator list comparable to that of ##javascript's
19:43 <emilyrose> which tells me that it isn't a lack of resources 
19:43 <emilyrose> but a lack of concern
19:43 <emilyrose> on your part
19:43 <emilyrose> which is why I am being so adamant
19:43 <emilyrose> if you care as much as you say you do
19:43 <emilyrose> fix it
19:44 <emilyrose> if a moderator went on a tangent like the one Agamemnus just went on, they would be immediately deposed
19:45 <emilyrose> I'm not saying that is what you need to do, but trying to help give you some perspective on how #node.js has 
                  maintained itself as a successful and inclusive community support channel
19:49 <emilyrose> what do you think?
19:56 <buu> I think I'm uncomfortable with the definition of 'alienation' you see to be using.
19:56 <emilyrose> what about it makes you uncomfortable?
19:56 <buu> The rest is generic irc moderation.
19:56 <emilyrose> we agree on that
19:56 <buu> Probably the lack of specificity.
19:56 <emilyrose> which makes it even more baffling to me that there is no moderation
19:56 <emilyrose> it sounds to me like what you call 'specificity' I call 'agency'
19:56 <emilyrose> if someone is telling you they feel alienated
19:57 <emilyrose> chances are, they do.
19:57 <buu> And?
19:57 <emilyrose> and more often than not, there is a perfectly legitimate reason for it
19:57 <emilyrose> which needs to be addressed
19:57 <emilyrose> you seem to be making the case that it's OK for people to feel alienated
19:57 <emilyrose> is that true?
19:57 <buu> So presumably they can express their feelings in a way likely to engender change
19:57 <emilyrose> what ways do you view as likely to engender change?
19:58 <buu> Positive, specific feedback based communication.
19:59 <emilyrose> you mean like the discussion I had in the channel just now?
19:59 <buu> Let me use a specific example from my perspective. I am highly uncomfortable with the idea of harassing someone over
            using the term guys.
19:59 <emilyrose> why?
19:59 <emilyrose> also, I'm uncomfrotable with your use of the term 'harassing'
19:59 <buu> I know.
19:59 <buu> That's why I used it.
19:59 <emilyrose> nothing that was said in response to the use of 'guys' was harassment
19:59 <emilyrose> are you trying to troll me?
19:59 <buu> I think the person in question felt harassed.
19:59 <emilyrose> but why?
19:59 <buu> Because he told me so.
20:00 <emilyrose> sure
20:00 <emilyrose> understandable
20:00 <emilyrose> I'm asking, why did that situation come about?
20:00 <emilyrose> because he defended his right to be offensive
20:00 <buu> Are you saying the term guys is offensive?
20:01 <emilyrose> when used as a 'gender neutral' greeting for a channel of people of varying genders
20:01 <emilyrose> absolutely
20:01 <buu> So is that the sort of thing a single person gets to make the decision on?
20:01 <emilyrose> is that a relevant question?
20:01 <buu> Yes
20:01 <emilyrose> many people made that decision just now
20:02 <emilyrose> I invite you to re-read the scrollback if oyu think I was the only one that took issue to it
20:02 <buu> I read it.
20:02 <emilyrose> and you still maintain I was alone in that issue?
20:02 <buu> No.
20:02 <buu> I'm asking where you draw the line.
20:02 <emilyrose> ok, fair enough
20:02 <emilyrose> speaking from my personal experience
20:03 <emilyrose> if someone is offended 
20:03 <emilyrose> even one person
20:03 <emilyrose> I will make every effort I can to make them not feel offended
20:03 <emilyrose> even if I feel like they're being unreasonable
20:03 <emilyrose> which is rare
20:03 <emilyrose> the vast majority of people are very reasonable about these things
20:03 <emilyrose> it sounds like you're trying to elude to the 'slippery slope' argument
20:08 <buu> Its a concern.
20:09 <emilyrose> a mostly imaginary one
20:09 <buu> But its more a question of where one person's right to be offended trumps another person's "free speech" for lack of 
            a better term
20:09 <emilyrose> ok
20:09 <emilyrose> it's less about a right to be offended than it is their right to feel safe and included
20:09 <buu> And lets be honest here, arguing over the term 'guys' as a group noun is really, really stupid.
20:09 <emilyrose> no
20:09 <emilyrose> I *am* being honest
20:09 <emilyrose> and it's *not* stupid
20:10 <emilyrose> it's unfortunate that you feel that way
20:10 <buu> Guys has been gender neutral for the past 20 years
20:10 <emilyrose> no, no it hasn't
20:10 <buu> Yeah, it has
20:10 <emilyrose> haha
20:10 <emilyrose> so
20:10 <emilyrose> I'm telling you that it isn't
20:10 <emilyrose> and you're telling me that it is
20:10 <emilyrose> but here I am
20:10 <emilyrose> not a guy
20:10 <emilyrose> feeling excluded by the term 'guys' being applied to me in a group context
20:10 <emilyrose> and also not the only one feeling this way
20:10 <buu> and?
20:10 <emilyrose> yet you maintain
20:10 <emilyrose> that it's "gender neutral"
20:11 <emilyrose> even in the face of ample evidence that it's not for everyone
20:11 <buu> So who changes?
20:11 <emilyrose> the ones causing harm
20:11 <emilyrose> it's a simple equasion
20:11 <buu> Even if the harm is self inflicted?
20:11 <emilyrose> equation*
20:11 <emilyrose> are we having hypothetical discussions now?
20:11 <emilyrose> or are we talking about a real thing?
20:12 <emilyrose> because I'm not the one making myself feel alienated by OTHER PEOPLE excluding me with their vocabulary
20:12 <buu> So what causes *you* to feel alienated?
20:13 <emilyrose> in general? or when people use the term 'guys' to refer to me in a group?
20:14 <emilyrose> https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/588126977837690880
20:14 <emilyrose> so far 7 people have retweeted that tweet
20:15 <emilyrose> most of them openly identify as 'a guy'
20:15 <emilyrose> read the thread of discussion
20:15 <emilyrose> I am far from the only one that recognizes the issue
20:16 <buu> But we're just running circles around the issue. I use guys as gender neutral, including *you*. You don't feel 
            included when I say it. I'm intending to include you. You don't feel included.
20:16 <buu> Do we just line up people on each side?
20:17 <emilyrose> lol
20:17 <buu> Does whoever make the complaint automatically win?
20:17 <emilyrose> ...
20:17 <emilyrose> let me ask you this
20:17 <emilyrose> do you honestly feel that it's unreasonable that you should have to change even a single piece of your 
                  vocabulary to accomodate the presence of those not entirely like yourself?
20:17 <emilyrose> honestly, yes or no?
20:19 <buu> 'no'
20:19 <emilyrose> then why are we having this theoretical conversation about 'who wins'?
20:19 <emilyrose> everyone wins when we're considerate toward each other
20:19 <emilyrose> when we foster an environment of inclusivity and mutual respect
20:19 <emilyrose> it's really not that hard
20:20 <buu> Its not a theoretical question, I'm asking what I can do to change your opinion about the word guys.
20:21 <emilyrose> well
20:21 <emilyrose> let's see
20:21 <emilyrose> stop using it to refer to me
20:21 <emilyrose> stop trying to convince yourself that your convenience is worth more than the comfort (and safety) of others
20:22 <emilyrose> use it to refer to actual guys
20:22 <buu> That isn't answering the question
20:22 <emilyrose> what is the question?
20:22 <buu> What will change *your* opinion
20:23 <emilyrose> on?
20:23 <buu> The gender neutrality of the word guys
20:23 <buu> Can I quote definitions?
20:23 <buu> Get examples?
20:23 <emilyrose> lol
20:23 <buu> Find persons in authority?
20:23 <emilyrose> wow
20:23 <emilyrose> you are really really committed to this
20:23 <buu> I can quote my mom if you want =]
20:23 <emilyrose> I've been trying to have a discussion with you about the general toxicity of your channel
20:24 <emilyrose> and you want to focus exclusively on how you can convince me to feel comfortable with you misgendering me
20:24 <emilyrose> this isn't about me
20:24 <emilyrose> or any single individual
20:24 <buu> That's not what I'm doing. I'm sad you feel that way. But it does demonstrate why this sort of communication is 
            difficult.
20:24 <emilyrose> this isn't about the term "guys"
20:25 <emilyrose> you are trying to make some point by way of coercion and it's frankly pretty unsettling and makes me feel even 
                  more uneasy about oyu
20:27 <buu> Sorry, I don't think I want to continue a conversation where you feel its ok to personally insult me.
20:28 <emilyrose> when did I insult you?
20:36 <emilyrose> in the interest of full disclosure, I feel obligated to inform you that I've uploaded a transcript of this 
                  conversation to gisthub.com: https://gist.github.com/emilyrose/468eebf82251d86bf771