social.txt

rhiaro: Good <time-of-day> social!
rhiaro: We're about to have a social breakout session at TPAC
rhiaro: I'm going to be scribing in here, for those interested
rhiaro: tantek: Welcome to the social web breakout session!
rhiaro: ... I'm Tantek Celik, one of the co-chairs. Arnaud le Hors is also here as a co-chair
rhiaro: ... We've been working on this very hard problem which is the social web
rhiaro: ... First, here's a real world example of the TPAC page - notice the very first encouragement of participation is here called 'social', little twitter logo, hashtag tpac2015
rhiaro: ... So here's a question. Twitter, a member of w3c, not present at this week's meeting, not here today, but w3c is promoting them as very first method of participation on the tpac page. What's wrong with this picture?
rhiaro: ... That's the magnitude of the problem we're trying to address
rhiaro: ... The problem goes all the way to the top of w3c
csarven: present+ csarven
rhiaro: ... What does 'encourage you to share this event on social networking sites' mean to anyone here?
rhiaro: Manu: The assumption is it's a website that allows multiple peopel to congregate on that website
rhiaro: ... Which I feel is different from how it should be set up
rhiaro: ... People having their own sites, posting stuff, being able to move their content from one place to another
rhiaro: ... manu.sporney.org
rhiaro: tantek: if you have your own site and post content on it, say your site
rhiaro: ... one of the problems here is one of awareness
rhiaro: ... w3c by posting share this on social networking sites might not be aware that most of us have their own websites
rhiaro: ... What else does this mean to people, to post on social networking sites? Anyone?
aaronpk: s/sporney/sporny
rhiaro: tantek: the very first encouragement that tpac is giving to attendees to participate is twitter. WHat does that mean to you?
rhiaro: csarven: it's a question of.. you can pick one or you can pick a giant list of ways in which you can participate, twitter just happens to be one of them
rhiaro: ... obviously doesn't fit well from the perspective of the social web wg, but to me it's just one of many channels
rhiaro: ... of course it's a silo and so on, but i'm not sure if that necessarily has to be the main point of discussion
rhiaro: jeff junglecode.net: it seems like the network effects of these social sites is what makes them viable
rhiaro: ... you go because your friends are already there
rhiaro: ... so for the social web wg to be viable, you need to get those network effects
rhiaro: ... I'm curious if the goal of the group is to make it so that is possible to achieve those network effects without being twitter
rhiaro: tantek: that's a great wayt o fram ethe question
aaronpk: junglecode++
Loqi: junglecode has 1 karma
rhiaro: deiu: I think one of the reasons why they put that there is because twitter is a popular means for peopel to share messages, events, stuff that happens
rhiaro: ... the hashtag is actually the imprtant part
rhiaro: ... it's not necessarily the social network, but the common label that we use to speak in a particular context
rhiaro: ... this is the key part that w3c wanted to use, the reason they wanted to use twitter and the hashtag
rhiaro: ... gives people a way to discover information even if they don't necessarily follow everyoen that participates in this event
rhiaro: tantek: so hashtag is a keyword to let people discover things
rhiaro: ... Imagine you are in 1995 in an IETF meeting
rhiaro: ... There's an agenda, instead of reading a webpage you see an email about it
rhiaro: ... In that email, there's a box that says 'social' that says 'use the aol keyword to post on aol' for this event. What would you say to that?
rhiaro: ... My assertion is that the w3c posting this in 2015 about twitter is no different from ietf posting this in 1995
rhiaro: (?): It's very different
rhiaro: ... twitter has a web interface that means I don't have to have a twitter account to read these messages
rhiaro: ... thats' a huge difference
rhiaro: ... I know where you're going because you have countries like austira who prohibit in schools to organise themselves in facebookgroups because they don't want to force people to have a fb account
rhiaro: ... because you need an account to interact
rhiaro: ... but here's it's different
rhiaro: tantek: so if twitter was a walled garden with no public access then it would be different
rhiaro: David Clarke: I'm on the i18n wg, and it occurs to me that depending on what country you're in twitter may not be an available route to access that information
rhiaro: ... although you're talkinga bout proprietary walled gardens, we also have politcal walled gardens
rhiaro: ... that type of thing breaks up the communications
annbass: wonders if there are minutes up until now?
rhiaro: ... in the past I've tried to use various social media in other countries, and there's literally a firewall
annbass: really sorry to be late
rhiaro: ... whereas if I got to an ordinary website I've actually got the access
rhiaro: ... so it strikes me that if you want worldwide social you need to actually look at how you make that, but equally keep it politically safe
rhiaro: tantek: it sounds like you're bursting the bubble that all my friends are on there
rhiaro: David Clarke: I know there are countries I've been in where I couldn't see twitter, or had to go through a proxy beyond the standard tech ability of many other people
rhiaro: ... So maybe we don' thave the univeral feed that you think we do have
aaronpk: annbass: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-10-27#t1445996423051
rhiaro: *annbass & tantek catchup last few mins*
danbri: tantek points out that Twitter is not a sponsor or at TPAC or in this room, and yet promoted by W3C in TPAC page
rhiaro: *people talk over each other*
rhiaro: tantek: this was the problem statement
aaronpk: rhiaro++ for scribing
Loqi: rhiaro has 177 karma
rhiaro: ... that even on the tpac page w3c is promoting a silo that isn't even accessible in other countries
rhiaro: annbass: we're not going to get rid of silos
rhiaro: tantek: that's not our goal
rhiaro: annbass: let's not argue about that
rhiaro: deiu: can we be constructive about this?
rhiaro: (?): We don't have to replace this box
rhiaro: tantek: whole countries can't use that box
rhiaro: (?): countries will always filter information that they don't like
rhiaro: ... they can have whatever technologies to filter web
rhiaro: ... this is a red herring
Arnaud: s/(?)/rigo/
rhiaro: annbass: let's not waste our time talking about this
rhiaro: rigo: I think the most important thing we should discuss is identifiers
rhiaro: ... that allows you to transport things over hops
rhiaro: manu: there's a decentralised hashtable movement to create portable identifiers so people can move their data. Very early work.
deiu: q+
Zakim: sees deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... Two points about that box. I think the reason that w3c an dmost of the membership think sit's okay, is many of us read twitter as throwaway data (whether that's okay or not is another question)
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... And currently there's no viable alternative
rhiaro: ... It's great that the socialwg is working to create a viable solution
tantek: ack q
Zakim: sees deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... but until then that's what we have
shevski: q+
Zakim: sees deiu, shevski on the speaker queue
rhiaro: deiu: in an attempt to stop this speculation about the reason whyt hat text is there, becasue frankly, I don't know who put it there and it's not constructive to figure out why it's there
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees deiu, shevski on the speaker queue
tantek: ack deiu
Zakim: sees shevski on the speaker queue
rhiaro: annbass: it's more like publicity to the outside world
rhiaro: deiu: we should move away from that and get back on track with the main topic
rhiaro: annbass: no real agenda, just we're doing this work and we need people to join us
rhiaro: ... these are some reasons we need to do the work
rhiaro: ... even though most of us are engaged in our social tools of choice
rhiaro: ... all of them are closed environments, and so what about having open opportunities that could be used for anything really
rhiaro: ... I work for Boeing, we're interested in this for within the company
rhiaro: ... we anticipate starting to open that up to suppliers, vendors, airline customers
rhiaro: ... there are all kinds of opportuniteis and issues
rhiaro: ... but we can't say airline xyz go meet us on facebook, in a business environment that's not going to happen
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees shevski on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... we need these foundational definitions of technologies to be available to build on
rhiaro: ... but we need more participants in the wg to get there
rhiaro: ... we think we should start with something simple so we can get something defined and out the door and build on that, but the more participants that help us lay the foundation the better it will be to build on
rhiaro: manu: I'm completely unaware of where you are right now, could we have a 5 minute where is the socialwg right now?
tantek: ack shevski
Zakim: sees no one on the speaker queue
deiu: q+ Manu
Zakim: sees Manu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: shevski: I'm Irina. I have a project to promote decentralised technologies and bring communities together
rhiaro: ... One thing I've found is so many projects, we have a list of over 200 open source projects, over 10 of them are protocols that are working to try and address this problem
rhiaro: ... but there's quite a lot of disconnect
rhiaro: ... the thing I'm interested in is really brining together these efforts and energies and passions together
rhiaro: ... what we werally need is open standards and a growing viable ecosystem that uses these open standards
m4nu: q?
Zakim: sees Manu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... that can accelerate. might be slow to begin with
rhiaro: ... but as we progress there are more poeple interested in this space, and a growing awareness of these issues
m4nu: q+ to ask about where the Social Web WG is currently wrt. work products.
Zakim: sees Manu, m4nu on the speaker queue
m4nu: q- Manu
Zakim: sees m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... but this is a really key moment to define some of those standards and bring those communities together
rhiaro: annbass: facebook twitter and the like have zero interest
rhiaro: shevski: we don't want them at this stage, their business models are not what I think is the future or where things are moving
rhiaro: ... we need to start growing an ecosystem that has alterntaive business models
m4nu: q+ to ask "what are the most compelling business models?"
Zakim: sees m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... maybe some of the monopolies might start changing their habits
rhiaro: ... I don't think it's fundamental that they are involved
rhiaro: ... they have all the power already
rhiaro: ... I don't know what that would bring
rhiaro: annbass: what could the rest of us do
rhiaro: shevski: have you looked at others already?
rhiaro: tantek: we have
rhiaro: tantek: ann asked how we're going to build it
rhiaro: ... I want to reach out ot all of you who are builders
rhiaro: ... as members who are builders, we need you to join the working group an dcontribute your expertise
rhiaro: arnaud: from a techncial point of view it's not so hard, right?
rhiaro: ... If you look at some of the pieces we rely on like email, it's completely decentralised
rhiaro: ... designed from ground up with a very simple protocol
csarven: For the record, Amy had her hand up (very briefly).
rhiaro: tantek: who uses gmail?
rhiaro: hangs her head in shame
rhiaro: arnaud: plenty of people don't
rhiaro: shevski: and you can send emails to hotmail account owners
rhiaro: arnaud: precisely
rhiaro: annbass: I don't know hot o use my own server
m4nu: q+ to mention why he isn't participating (group seems to be in conflict)
Zakim: sees m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: sorry bigbluehat, missed what you said
csarven: q+
Zakim: sees m4nu, csarven on the speaker queue
rhiaro: riga: I think this is a wrong discussion
deiu: s/riga:/rigo:
rhiaro: ... like ira said, look we have 200 projects, I see egov, neighbourhoods organising themselves, they have no way to connect to each other because the building blocks are not there
rhiaro: ... we need to talk about the building blogs
rhiaro: annbass: I invite you to join us
danbri: rigo, identifiers for what?
rhiaro: ... I don't want to here go down into the geek bits and bytes
rhiaro: tantek: instead of saying there are no building blocks, if you don't think there are, ask the question what are the building blocks?
Norm: q+ to observe that it's at as much a social problem as a technical one
Zakim: sees m4nu, csarven, Norm on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... manu did ask that, so I'll answer
rhiaro: ... We have several documents we're working on
rhiaro: ... ACtivityStreams is our most mature working draft
rhiaro: ... we have 3 deliverables, social syntax, an api for clients and servers to communicate that information, and the third area is a federation protocol for servers to pass the social information among themselves
rhiaro: ... In the first area, we have a document that we're moving forward with
rhiaro: ... In the second, we have inputs from existing communities that have working building blocks
rhiaro: ... in social api and federation, we have working building blocks that are being contributed
rhiaro: ... there's a lot of hope there, we just have to get the work done and produce the respected w3c drafts to keep moving forward with that
rhiaro: annbass: there are three technical communities in the wg
rhiaro: tantek: I don't think the boundaries are that sharply drawn
rhiaro: ... there are people with lots of different backgrounds
rigo: danbri: that is one of the questions that has to be answered
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees m4nu, csarven, Norm on the speaker queue
rhiaro: annbass: bringing together the perspectives has been a challenge, but there's beena  lot of progress
rhiaro: ... we need more participation to make sure we cover the territory
tantek: ack m4nu
Zakim: m4nu, you wanted to ask about where the Social Web WG is currently wrt. work products. and to ask "what are the most compelling business models?" and to mention why he isn't
Zakim: sees csarven, Norm on the speaker queue
Zakim: ... participating (group seems to be in conflict)
csarven: q-
Zakim: sees Norm on the speaker queue
rhiaro: m4nu: what's the timeline?
rhiaro: ... to CR and how many implementors do you have?
rigo: danbri: certainly ID has a split between host and account (Identity)
rhiaro: tantek: timeline, charter expries end of 2016
rhiaro: ... we had a bunch of different aspirational schedule deadliens based on no particular concrete evidence, so all those dates from the charter have been thrown out of the window
rhiaro: ... So we don' thave a specific timeline now that's based in any kind of fact
rhiaro: m4nau: but the hope is that as2 is the one in front and probably going to be the first one?
rhiaro: tantek: probably, but there are enough open issues I can't dependably make that statement
rhiaro: m4nu: mention that fb and twitter aren't here and aren't interested
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees Norm on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... if an organisation is going to... and I completely get that this is best fo rthe web... but it's very hard for companies to participate if there are not compelling business models to do so
rhiaro: ... has part of your work been selling these business models to companies?
rhiaro: annbass: we have not, we need expertise to do that
rhiaro: ... come right in
rhiaro: tantek: arnaud, from IBM who are building products to make money from social web..?
rhiaro: arnaud: there are different constraints in the wg and people with different interests. People like tantek who chairs indiewebcamp, who are trying to build this open network outside of silos
rhiaro: ... IBM are interested in the social interaction that integrate with enterprise applications
aaronpk: whoa whoa whoa there is no "chair" of indiewebcamp ;)
rhiaro: ... Obviously there's a social element that comes into place in enterprise
rhiaro: ... We see the same applications that apppear in all different tools
rhiaro: ... We need standards protocols to do this integration
rhiaro: annbass: example in Boeing, we're seeing social activities like pstoing, sharing, equivalent of liking, in many different vendors products coming into boeing
rhiaro: ... We don't want our people to ahve to replicate their profile in 50 different places, we want a central profile that will be used in others
rhiaro: ... For big companies,t hat's where the openness of these technologies would be valuable
deiu: q?
Zakim: sees Norm on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... Most companies are doing nothing with social yet
rigo: danbri: question is whether they already opted for email address format. Currently looking it up
rhiaro: ... Certain suppliers are trying to sell to us. We're building our own.
rhiaro: ... From a US perspective, I don't know abou tother countries, by the way, we have no participation from non-american companies in the socialwg
rhiaro: ... we need people from other countries so that we don't... I don't know really what goes on in china, japan, india, russia
shevski: q+
Zakim: sees Norm, shevski on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... we need perspectives from a broader group of people
tantek: ack Norm
Zakim: Norm, you wanted to observe that it's at as much a social problem as a technical one
rhiaro: Norm: nwalsh.com
Zakim: sees shevski on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... I aggregate my social media posts back there
rhiaro: ... I really do care about doing this in the open
rhiaro: ... THe observation I would like to make is we're not fighting a technical problem but a social one
rhiaro: ... Human beings like to group around things
tantek: aggregates his social media back (like the PESOS technique https://indiewebcamp.com/ )
rhiaro: ... Email is decentralised protocol but everyone uses gmail
rhiaro: ... Git is dcentralised but everyone uses github
rhiaro: annbass: I don't really know how to do email somewhere else. we just go to a tool that makes it easy for us to do it
rhiaro: ... What abou tnormal people who aren't geeks?
rhiaro: tantek: even hackers can't set up their own email servers right now
rhiaro: annbass: this needs to work for normal people
rhiaro: Norm: my observation is that there is a social aspect above the technical one
rhiaro: ... people group around things, people will do the easiest thing
deiu: q?
Zakim: sees shevski on the speaker queue
deiu: q+
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... business are motivated to do the thing that makes them money
rhiaro: Andy Hutton: work for Unify
aaronpk: srsly, I stopped hosting my own mail server a long time ago. search for "email deliverability" and you will see why
rhiaro: ... we develop enterprise social applications
rhiaro: ... yourcircuit.com
deiu: I run my own email server and I've never had any issues with email being blocked
rhiaro: ... I don't know what the focus of the group is really, I've been distant
aaronpk: http://liminality.xyz/the-hostile-email-landscape/ “This isn't how the internet is supposed to work. As we continue to consolidate on a few big mail services, it's only going to become more difficult to start new servers.”
rhiaro: ... Your poitn about enterprise and business use cases are something this group could work on and we could all benefit from
tantek: citation for the failure of email - you can no longer setup your own email server and send email to those on big providers: http://liminality.xyz/the-hostile-email-landscape/
rhiaro: ... Businesses want to share data
rhiaro: ... We need interoperable data and common apis
tantek: email is no longer in practice an openly federated system
rhiaro: ... In a business environment we certainly see value in what we do
rhiaro: annbass: I encourage you to join us, we need more busines speople
rhiaro: Dave Clarke: If you are dealing with international issues of any description, there is an i18n wg
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... we're small and overstretched but although it's useful for you to get people from lots of idfferent countries, you can talk to us please!
tantek: q+ timbl
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, timbl on the speaker queue
tantek: q+ m4nu
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, timbl, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: annbass: I'm always fascinated by the work of the i18n group, and accessibility of course, this kind of work needs to be reviewed for accommodation of all of those considerations
deiu: tantek, I don't think you can use that article in a "normative" way. It's just someone's experience
rhiaro: ... What I'm interested in from other countries is, people eeverywhere no matter who you are want to be social, there are different modes of cultural interaction from different flavours
rhiaro: ... I don't want this to have an american flavour to it
rhiaro: ... We can't know what's elsewhere
tantek: deiu - do you have counter-experience to cite?
rhiaro: ... THat's what I meant
m4nu: q+ to mention why he doesn't feel comfortable with participating in Social Web WG (group seems philosophically conflicted)
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, timbl, m4nu on the speaker queue
deiu: tantek, yes, my own
tantek: excellent!
rhiaro: timbl: There was a call for what are the building blocks
rhiaro: ... so those of us who are building apps, it turns out when you build something like to do a distributed version of the unconference stickies
rhiaro: ... I should be able to launch on my website, code to do the unconference thing
rhiaro: ... I ought to be able to host anyone who wants to have an unconference tod o that
rhiaro: ... and you ought to think that's stupid, and fork it and create better colours
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, timbl, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... so take that as an example, or take doodle or wahtever, they involve people
tantek: ack timbl
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... every app eends up doing what every social network does and saying select which people are involved
rhiaro: ... on a mac there's an api for doing that with your contacts app
rhiaro: ... you can do that on facebook
rhiaro: ... but they're all walled
rhiaro: ... so building blocks are things like access control, introducing people, building up lists of people to be in the group
rhiaro: ... some of which are already in system, some aren't
rhiaro: ... you've probably built lots of widgets and modules like that
rhiaro: ... There are two reasons for making these protocols instead of software
annbass: q+
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, m4nu, annbass on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... One is the pain of making the same thing over and over
annbass: q-
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... But what's mroe important is when any app I run says
rhiaro: ... who are the people who are going to beinvolved?
rhiaro: ... I want to be able to say all the peopl ein my entire life
rhiaro: ... That's a big win for a user, and for a developer to just plug this in
rhiaro: ... a module that can interoperate with everyone else's modules
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees shevski, deiu, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... there's a finite set of building blocks, that's just one
rhiaro: annbass: we have a list of 100 use cases and we've worked to refine them
rhiaro: ... trying to identify foundational things
rhiaro: shevski: shevski.com
tantek: ack shevski
Zakim: sees deiu, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... I wanted to pick up on a few things that manu said and ann
rhiaro: ... I don't know about you, but I send a lot of emails
rhiaro: ... a lot of a lot of peoples jobs is sending emails
rhiaro: ... the reasons it's so ubiquitous and important si because it's an open standard
rhiaro: ... but nobody makes money off email. There are so many companies and industrues that use communication channels that they're not making money off
rhiaro: ... They're the ones who need open standards for social
rhiaro: ... As we're living in a more global, remote working world, those are the people who need open standards and don't want walled gardens
rhiaro: ... That's why facebook and twitter aren't really the people
rhiaro: ... Their business model is the comms channel
rhiaro: ... but there are so many companies who aren't
rhiaro: ... and it *is* their business model to have solutions that are interoperable
tantek: aside: on simple building blocks: http://tantek.com/log/2003/0813t1158.html#simplicity (citing Weaving the Web)
rhiaro: ... it's worth having conversations with them
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees deiu, m4nu on the speaker queue
rigo: q+ to present pep-project
Zakim: sees deiu, m4nu, rigo on the speaker queue
tantek: ack deiu
Zakim: sees m4nu, rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: +1000000000 shevski
rhiaro: deiu: it's counterproductive to demonise facebook and twitter
rhiaro: ... first and foremost peope should have the choice of which service to use
rhiaro: ... as long as it's interoperable with everything else
rhiaro: ... if you want to run your own webserver or email server, there's an associated cost of running the software
rhiaro: ... domain name, certificate, operational costs
rhiaro: ... for some people it makes sense, for others it doesn't
m4nu: q+ to ask about where we are on portable identifiers, digital signatures on social messages, public key infrastructure for the Web
Zakim: sees m4nu, rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... there are teenages who cannot afford to pay this cos tso they will use facebook becasue it is 'free'
rhiaro: ... but that measn they should not be locked into using facebook
rhiaro: ... they should have the freedom to say they want to move to something else
rhiaro: ... How do we enable them to actually do this?
rhiaro: ... How can we help people move between services without incurring a penalty? Especially in terms of social graph
rhiaro: ... I think that's a more important question
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees m4nu, rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... than 'why is facebook bad'
rhiaro: annbass: we spend zero time actually talking about those companies and their products
rhiaro: ... we're just figuruing out the beginning
rhiaro: ... We have WG doing the hardcore geek work. I'm chairing an IG that's on haitus, and it's not clear what we're oging to do
rhiaro: ... Anyone interested in participating in that come talk to me
rhiaro: ... ***@***.***
rhiaro: ... Just wanted to clarify, I think the IG is more open for general discussion and overview of what's possible
rhiaro: ... whereas the wg is focussed ong etting an initial api defined and out the door
rhiaro: tantek: also the irc channel is informally open to anyone
rhiaro: ... you can join it, now, later
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees m4nu, rigo on the speaker queue
tantek: ack m4nu
Zakim: m4nu, you wanted to mention why he doesn't feel comfortable with participating in Social Web WG (group seems philosophically conflicted) and to ask about where we are on portable
Zakim: ... identifiers, digital signatures on social messages, public key infrastructure for the Web
Zakim: sees rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: m4nu: First an observation that we shouldn't dwell on
annbass: s/... ***@***.***//
shevski: +1 to deiu on looking into reducing switching costs!
rhiaro: aaronpk can you remove ann's email from the logs
rhiaro: ... I want to outline some of the reasons my company doesn't feel they can participate
aaronpk: sure
rhiaro: ... One, we're very busy. Our business is not in social web, but we're interested, but our focus is elsewhere
rhiaro: ... Hwoever, if it were not somewhere else, it feels like the wg is philosophically conflicted
rhiaro: ... some members from indieweb, some people pushing linked data, and another group that's kind of the web developer let's get it done json without thinking about semantics
rhiaro: ... when you look at those three operating in one wg
rhiaro: ... a positive way to look at is there's a great amount of discussion
rhiaro: ... really figuring out how to build the right thing
rhiaro: ... the negative thing is that it can be poisnous to the group becasue you try to make everyone happy and end up with this frankenstein at the end
rhiaro: ... current as2 spec, tries to do json-ld but also stay away from it. See stuff that's trying to be very web develope rget it done, but could potentially fall short with the linked data stuff down the line
danbri: (there's also an 'Enterprise' aspect to the WG?)
rhiaro: ... It's not clear to us what ... it feels schitzophrenic
csarven: s/schitzophrenic/schizophrenic
deiu: q?
Zakim: sees rigo on the speaker queue
annbass: annbass:  I'd like to ask rhiaro to desccribe what she's doing to compare and contrast various technical approaches
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees rigo on the speaker queue
annbass: rhiaro: we have an editor's draft
annbass: ... also rewriting the input specs from those diff techs; yes a lot of overlap
wydong: q?
Zakim: sees rigo on the speaker queue
annbass: ... still very early, but hopeful
annbass: manu: feels difficult; I don't want to put my engineers into spending time in fighting about techs
rhiaro: annbass I'll pick up
annbass: ... feel like group has been sort of toxic to this point; waiting for you to sort it out
rhiaro: m4nu: we're focussed on decentralised identifiers so you can port your data from one silo to another
rhiaro: ... data that people own, not companies
rhiaro: ... There's digital signatures, so how do you verify where something came from, without having to go through a large organisation
rhiaro: ... how do we put the trust into the social web layer
rhiaro: ... there are componants there that we are working onin payments and credentials that are built on top of linked data, and if things were to go to the linked data route
rhiaro: ... we feel that we can contribute
rhiaro: ... but we don't want to come in and say you'll only get these if you go the linked data route, that would be toxi
rhiaro: tantek: are you shipping products?
rhiaro: m4nu: yes, very active pilots with large companies
rhiaro: ... deployment behind them
rhiaro: ... Quite obviously the trust layer of the web is missing to a large degree
rhiaro: ... we're trying to get that done
rhiaro: ... we think there's a tremendous amount of commonaility between work done by social, payments and credentials
rhiaro: ... we don't know the right time to step in and say let's work together
timbl: q+ to ask manu about building blocks
Zakim: sees rigo, timbl on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... feels like socialwg is just getting off the ground
rhiaro: tantek: we have social messages, public idenfiers, several examples of those working publicly on the web across implementations
rigo: q- later
Zakim: sees timbl, rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... the goal is to get all the approaches that people have working on today's web interoperable
rhiaro: ... big challenge when people have already shipped things that work differently
rhiaro: ... that's our optimistic view that people have shipped stuff, and we can figure out how to make it all work without having to mandate a particular platform
rhiaro: ... if linked data works for you great, but for many others it's a showstopper
rhiaro: ... and developers who want a simple pile of json like existing apis give
rhiaro: ... so we're trying to find an intersection
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees timbl, rigo on the speaker queue
tantek: ack timbl
Zakim: timbl, you wanted to ask manu about building blocks
Zakim: sees rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: timbl: manu, you're shipping stuff, you must have an idea of what you'll makein the future, is it appropraite for you to give you a list of the building blocks?
rhiaro: m4nu: we have CG specs all public
rhiaro: ... RDF dataset normalization
rhiaro: ... linked data signatures, turns the web into a gigantic pki
rhiaro: timbl: any modules on top of that to do things with those signature?
rhiaro: m4nu: credentials and identity stuff is a way for people to make calims about people
rhiaro: ... that's where a lot of our money is generated
rhiaro: ... want to issue credentials to people to say they have a paricular degree or license, etc
rhiaro: ... I think there's heavy overlap with the socialwg
rhiaro: ... when you're talking to someone you want to know who they are, but them saying this is me might not be enough
rhiaro: ... you might want say ibm to walk in and say we approve this idenity
rhiaro: ... and you can use that credential
deiu: q+ to just note that I find it surprising that the Social Web WG considers identity out of scope
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: timbl: so mydex, a company in the uk
annbass: q+ to say we are concerned about all of this, but also are worried to start "small"
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu, annbass on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... will assure the person you're logging on to that the government has judged you worth, so that gets you access to a bunch of support from different organisations
rhiaro: ... so it's interesting to see how credentials... we have to look at functionality, and what people need to build
rhiaro: ... this group needs to have it in their head how these building blocks will fit together
rhiaro: m4nu: I think socialwg is too early in the process. I know there are peopel deploying stuff, but when it comes to putting things to rec track, none of the wgs or igs say we really need stuff like linked data signatures, rdf datasets YET
rhiaro: ... hopefully if social web says we need these building blocks we can get those out
rhiaro: tantek: so far I don't know of anyone who has said they need these building blocks
rhiaro: ... if you can put forward a use case that definitively sets for the need for this building block
rhiaro: ... so far we have use cases and implementations that haven't demonstrated a need
rhiaro: timbl: you haven't done anything at that level of security
David_clarke: q+ personal silos... I divide between w3c myself and employment. all me but different personal silos?
Zakim: David_clarke, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
rhiaro: ... we're using signed rdf for example as part of the (?) test suite
rhiaro: ... using built in crypto functions, that allows you to login to something at w3c by offering a digitally signed statement that you worked for a company that was signed by the member services person at the time
rhiaro: ... there wer ea bunch of rules
rhiaro: ... so we built the test demos that were using actual code
rhiaro: ... to do something like that operating w3c membership
rhiaro: ... that was a while ago
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu, annbass on the speaker queue
rhiaro: annbass: we know there's concerns about security and identity, but we've taken it off the table at the beginning, to try to start small and accomplish something
rhiaro: m4nu: and there's another group working on that
rhiaro: ... so hopefully we can link  up
annbass: q-
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: timbl: I'ts useful for somebody, maybe not this group, to chart the longer future
rhiaro: ... but this group is focussed very much on how to tweet in a decntralised fashion
rhiaro: annbass: we brainstormed an initial set of use cases
rhiaro: ... very simple kinds of actions
rhiaro: timbl: didn't do anything like vouching that someobdy is a member of a particular group
rhiaro: annbass: we said from the beginning we can't deal with all of human activity, so we have to begin somewhere
rhiaro: timbl: meanwhile it's useful for people like manu..
rhiaro: annbass: we have another list for things to people to add to for future consideration
rhiaro: tantek: that's why this is an open call, to contribute use cases
rhiaro: timbl: the palce to go when you're writing code is how do these things fit together
rhiaro: ... so access control is one of the tings that you need. If credentials are part of the world, you expec tot have a UI that says allow people in according to what credentials they have
rhiaro: ... that's how the api pieces fit together
rhiaro: ... if you don't have that sort of integration we're not going to be able to leverage off the power of each of the pieces
rhiaro: tantek: twitter 2006 did not imagine twitter 2015 when they shipped
annbass: wiki of Social WG: http://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialWG
rhiaro: ... what the wg recognise is we need to ship a bunch of somethings that are extremely simple that foucs on the 80% that work today
jet: q+
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu, jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... we're not going to match twitter 2015, but we can possibly match twitter 2006 as distributed
rhiaro: ... we don't need to imagine how everything is going to work out with all this grand architecture on the way
rhiaro: ... we'll evolve it on the way
rhiaro: ... that's how everyone who is successufl works
rhiaro: timbl: but he's shipping digital signatures now
rhiaro: ... if you have a roadmap that has that on it..
rhiaro: tantek: facebook didn't have a roadmap
taisuke_: q
rhiaro: timbl: but you're not trying to create a silo your'e trying to create an ecosystem
annbass: initial set of user stories for API: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
rhiaro: tantek: it's going to be a challenge, maybe in the wg we don't have enough participants who care about those cases, it didn't get written up as one of the 99 use cases
rhiaro: ... we're not saying we don't want to hear it, we do, so please capture those use scases
rhiaro: ... the wg is run by the members, that's how we make changes
rhiaro: annbass: turns out humans are darn complicated
rhiaro: rigo: interesting discussion, if you're really interested in this you should join the group on hardware security, that's where you integrate these identity systems
annbass: list of additional user stories for Social API (add new ideas here!): http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/More_user_stories
rhiaro: ... I think tim said we have to join w3c we have to bring governmental trust into the web
rhiaro: tantek: nsa already doing this
rhiaro: rigo: in AS2 the identifiers are definitely wrong, that's perhaps for another conversation
rigo: http://pep-project.org/2015-10/
annbass: NOTE:  those user stories are primarily focused on things that should be in API
rhiaro: ... Going onto a higher level, I want to show you something ^
rhiaro: ... Mainly a Pretty Easy Privacy
rhiaro: ... we all know that pgp or gpg encrpytion exists but nobody uses them
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu, jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... and friend of mine who hacks for CCC in switzerland
rhiaro: ... says okay we need to do something about it
annbass: there are lots of ideas for other kinds of user stories, but are not sorted out very well .. see the main page of the wiki
rhiaro: ... a piece of software with 4 clicks on windows to get outlook to do encryption
rhiaro: ... has special means of generating trust
rhiaro: ... and when we talked about gmail client issue, when you have two instances of pep and they talk to each other, they don't talk smtp any more
rhiaro: ... they talk by fully encrypted protocol to each other directly
rhiaro: ... totally invisible to user, don't see any o fthat happening
shevski: rigo link?
rhiaro: http://pep-project.org/2015-10/
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees rigo, deiu, jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... we shoudn't confuse identity and trust
tantek: ack rigo
Zakim: rigo, you wanted to present pep-project
Zakim: sees deiu, jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... there is this false belief that identity = trust
shevski: thanks rhiaro :)
rhiaro: ... you can be screwed by being fully identified
rhiaro: ... The other level is that we have social networking effects
rhiaro: ... best known for the telephone industry, if one person has a telephone it's not much use
rhiaro: ... this is the facebook effect we are having. We have to build up the momentum
annbass: also, the Social Web Interest Group (https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig)  brainstormed a lot of user stories ...
rhiaro: ... network effects are against us at the moment
rhiaro: ... at DCENT2011 in berlin
rhiaro: ... egyptian guy came and talked about his revolution
deiu: q-
Zakim: sees jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... we were on twitter, they kicked us out, we were on facebook, they kicked us out, then we reaslised were the social network, so we made our own where they couldn't kick us out
rhiaro: ... I got the kids off facebook to try to get them into a community before they move out
rhiaro: ... but it failed because the networking effects are too strong
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... ActivityStreams transport vs data.. are we talking only about transporting data between two servers that do whatever with it?
rhiaro: ... which is my understanding
rhiaro: ... or are we into having an interface, an api where we say you must do this you must do that
annbass: link for additional Social IG user stories: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF
m4nu: q+ to ask if there is a strict separation between messages and API?
Zakim: sees jet, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: arnaud: sounded like the last part was social api
annbass: the IG is also considering vocabularies needed for social
rhiaro: csarven: as2 is more vocabulary end
rhiaro: ... describe the activities themselves
rhiaro: rigo: I want to send, like email, a simple message from my pump.io to the pump.io of the other guy and say send message to him with these properties
wydong: about social network, the most important is the relationship between people. what kinds of relationship, who is connected via the relationship, how user interact according to relationship.
rhiaro: ... I couldn't care less how he wants this to be displayed
rhiaro: tantek: that's the split between the syntax and the social api
m4nu: q-
Zakim: sees jet on the speaker queue
timbl: q?
Zakim: sees jet on the speaker queue
rhiaro: arnaud: two deliverables, one that defines content you want to send, and one that says how to trasnport
m4nu: q+ to ask if there are APIs for browser-based message passing and another for REST APIs?
Zakim: sees jet, m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: jet: interesting discussion, facebook 2003, twitter 2006... also googleplus 2011
rhiaro: ... you can build proper apis and security and still fail at social
rhiaro: ... one thing the wg has going for it is the same thing facebook had in 04 and twitter in 06
rhiaro: ... there's a group of people, not technologies
shevski: +1
rhiaro: ... if we want to leverage that instead of focusing on tech stuff we could fall in the same trap as google plus
rhiaro: ... building a bunch of technologies when people don't really want to be there
rhiaro: tantek: good point
rhiaro: ... the sides of the road are littered with hundreds of decentralised social web projectws, probably as long as the web
rhiaro: ... in 2010 eprodrom organised the first social web summit
rhiaro: ... Most of the projects pitched there are now either dead or abandoned
rhiaro: ... There are lots of examples of failure in this space
rigo: q+
Zakim: sees jet, m4nu, rigo on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... One of ther easons driving us to make the building blocks as simple as possible
rhiaro: David Clarke: May sound like a tangent to technical, but very important
rhiaro: ... I certinaly have multiple identies
taisuke_: q+
Zakim: sees jet, m4nu, rigo, taisuke_ on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... I have my work identity, I have my personal identity, one for w3c stuff
rigo: ack jet
Zakim: sees m4nu, rigo, taisuke_ on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... might be overlap between parts of it
rhiaro: ... might take a selfie with timbl and put that onto my personal site
rhiaro: ... but my mensa life is also silod
tantek: q?
Zakim: sees m4nu, rigo, taisuke_ on the speaker queue
rigo: ack rigo
Zakim: sees m4nu, taisuke_ on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... interesting, I know people who are in mensa who don't let anyone else know apart ffrom other mensans
rhiaro: ... My identity .. i'm not as closed as that individual.. my identity for doing the mensa stuff is completely entirely separate from my professional life
rhiaro: ... althoug they're all me, we've got to go and say how do I set the boundaries on how far a given identity goes
rhiaro: ... I don't know what the answers are
rhiaro: ... all of my identies are me, but I don' tnecessarily want all of those identities talking to each other
rhiaro: timbl: most systems which allow you to create an account naturally it's hard to make systems where you can't create two
rhiaro: ... so the default, eg you can have as many webids as you like, so having separate personas out there isn't technically difficult
annbass: q?
Zakim: sees m4nu, taisuke_ on the speaker queue
rhiaro: ... the user interface, once you've logged in and am doing stuff, should the site be framed in a particular colour at all times to say you're talking with your mensa hat on, to make sure you don't say things to people with that hat that would be inappropriate
rhiaro: ... management of that
tantek: ack taisuke_
Zakim: sees m4nu on the speaker queue
rhiaro: taisuke: very exciting to see open and distributed alternative sns
rhiaro: ... I'd like to join
rhiaro: annbass: I'd like ot hear from people who have anythign to say about what inhibits you from wanting to join
timbl: There is a montion of thanks to the scribe
rhiaro: ... for some people it's just time
rhiaro: ... appreciated what manu said about this
rhiaro: ... interested to hear from anybody else
rhiaro: shepazu: or implementation!
rhiaro: ... might not want to participate but want to implement
rhiaro: annbass: yes also that
rhiaro: tantek: I started with this tpac2015 social box on w3c page
rhiaro: ... you don' thave to do both
rhiaro: ... See this photo posted to twitter hashtag
rhiaro: ... I didn't use twitter for this
rhiaro: ... used bridgy and my own site to post this
rhiaro: ... bridgy posts to twitter on your behalf
rhiaro: ... 'i want to be where my friends are' is no longer an excuse
rhiaro: ... there are services that can do that for you
rhiaro: ... that's a model we can move to in the future
rhiaro: ... we can use the silos as a transport system
rhiaro: annbass: I forgot to mention that annotationswg are looking closely and seeing some alignment between this work and their work
rhiaro: tantek: session this afternoon
rhiaro: ... also if you're interested in this topic, shevski has a session at 1300 in room 207, Decentralise
rhiaro: Thanks everyone!
rhiaro: fin.

For line 630 "this" is http://tantek.com/2015/300/t1/social-web-session-w3c-tpac2015