Transcription of slack conversation

slack.txt

Adam Cameron [18:15]  
Does Lucee have custom serialisers?

Evagoras Charalambous [18:16]  
Not that I know of. I am doing my own serialization.

[18:18]  
ACF's custom serializer is very slow by the way. Once you get away from serializeJSON, things start to crawl.

Adam Cameron [18:19]  
Does not surprise me. All aspects of the implementation seem to be utter rubbish to me

[18:19]  
Thought Lucee migtha looked at the concept and done a proper job of it

[18:20]  
Interesting I tried to find docs for it, and the least useless link I could find was to my own blog.

Evagoras Charalambous [18:20]  
Haha your blog post was the one that set me trying it out

Adam Cameron [18:21]  
sorry about that

Evagoras Charalambous [18:21]  
Lol

Adam Cameron [18:21]  
I did try to position the whole undertaking as "here be dragons"

[18:21]  
on the face of it, it's a cool idea

[18:22]  
But - as per most less-than-obvious things the Adobe CF Team tries to do - they completely cocked it up, having no real understanding of how ppl use CFML

Evagoras Charalambous [18:24]  
It is, and it "works". I was able to bypass the default serializers and wire it up to jsonUtils and Ben Ndel's custom serializer, but could jot stand up to stress.

Adam Cameron [18:34]  
Yeah I think the approach ought to have been to provide an interface eg Serializable, and if the CFC implements it, then call it when `jsonSerialize` is called on it. Rather than an app-wide thing (as per CF) or per using a generic solution like Ben's. You want to have a situation-specific implementation for stuff like this (edited)

[18:35]  
What concerns me about Adobe's implementation is it seems to be very "not OO" which worries me when it's actually implemented by ppl who are supposedly Java devs.

Evagoras Charalambous [18:39]  
That would actually rock if it was done that way.

Adam Cameron [18:39]  
yup

[18:40]  
I floated it "at the appropriate time" (nod to not speaking about the pre-release programme, but... well... f*** them), but the relevant parties just either didn't care or didn't get it or refused to get it.

[18:41]  
It's the perpetual symptom that Adobe never consult the community before they blindly go and implement ill-conceived and poorly realised shite.

[18:43]  
They ought to feel free to only consult with their major-client "IT stakeholders" for features like the API Manager and to a degree `<cfclient>` (hohoho), but when it comes to nuts 'n' bolts language implementation... they need to ask the ppl on the ground.

[18:46]  
But based on that recent survey Adobe did... there won't be any more focus on the CFML language from them. They're only interested in buzzword-completion/box-ticking IT-Manager-pleasing platform features

Rory Laitila [19:21]  
Your stamina in fighting the good fight was incredible frankly. I gave up on ACF 4 years ago, converted my apps to Railo, and haven't looked back. A lot of wasted opportunity. I worked at the largest ACF host and Adobe handled everything terribly from my perspective.

Adam Cameron [19:32]  
Well they finally broke me with CF2016

[19:33]  
(assisted by too-long-overdue Lucee 5)

[19:33]  
I'll help the community bods still when I can, but the vendors... screw 'em

Rory Laitila [19:47]  
Yeah the Lucee 4.2 > 5 timeline was brutal. But progress does seem to be must faster now. I home the extensible core pays the dividends work the investment

Adam Cameron [19:53]  
Time will tell on that one.

[19:54]  
I suspect it will pan out to be a lot of pointless effort, achieving little bar stagnation of interest in the product whilst everyone waited 2yrs for the promised Lucee 5.

[19:54]  
But then again: I'm quite cynical ;-)

Rory Laitila [20:01]  
The Railo > Lucee fiasco has hurt the community the most frankly. http://getrailo.org/ is down, making a lot of valuable reference material lost. A lot of confusion between ACF/Railo/Luceem especially dev I try to train on Lucee. Can only get to the old content through the internet archive. I've been collecting pieces and rewriting articles as I can. Like custom tags: https://rorylaitila.gitbooks.io/lucee/content/creating_custom_tags.html

[20:02]  
But in rewriting this documentation, I read a lot of other languages framework documentation too, and I've actually come to see Lucee as being quite a valuable competitor for web development even to this date. It has a lot going for it

Patrick Quinn [22:54]  
Yeah, those sorts of public "divorces" (Railo-->Lucee) are never pretty, but it was really necessary. Kudos to the core of the Railo peeps who held it together. LAS is quite strong now, and I believe we're the future of CFML as a platform.  I'm especially excited to see what the community can do with the extensible framework in place now. What say we all co-create a really vibrant ecosystem of products? With Adam as our cheerleader (I don't see it as cynical, mate!), I have no doubt we'll get it done. :+1:


----- Today September 25th, 2016 -----
Adam Cameron [06:35]  
You can't just say "What say we all co-create a really vibrant ecosystem of products?" and have it happen. The CFML community have demonstrated that they're - for the most part - takers rather than givers. Even with ppl asking for help from the community I see a sense of (misplaced) entitlement from them.

[06:36]  
That said there's a minority of good worker bees, and a bunch of people who are good people but they're still just in CFML 9-5 (which is fine), but will not grow or strengthen the community.

[06:38]  
Most of the stalwarts of the community are companies who have in the past invested a lot of effort into CFML (not the community necessarily, but for themselves), and it'd be a large $$$ cost for them to move. That's going to be why some of them continue to persist with CFML, and also encourage Lucee as LAS is more likely to work with those small to mid-level companies to provide what they want out of CFML. Same as with Adobe and larger corporates.

[06:41]  
The likes of Daemon and MSO.Net and Ortus and Pixl8 aren't going away when it comes to CFML due to how they've stacked their egg baskets, and I reckon they're more likely to stick with CFML than LAS will exist. Although one of them might consider "buying" Micha to perpetuate CFML for them if LAS founders. At which point Lucee will become kinda like OpenBD is for Alan Williamson's outfit

Sean Corfield [06:41]  
When you compare open source contribution across various language communities CFML has always lagged way behind -- and three different open source foundation attempts have foundered trying to fix that.

Adam Cameron [06:41]  
Yup.

[06:42]  
I think - and this is baseless supposition - the CFML community never got to a minimum size necessary to get the OSS snowball self-perpetuating

Sean Corfield [06:43]  
I look at Clojure -- a really niche language -- and it has a HUGE open source ecosystem by comparison.

Adam Cameron [06:43]  
IMO sticking with CFML is akin to Sisyphus and his boulder.

Sean Corfield [06:44]  
Oh yeah. CFML was certainly large enough. Maybe in the early 2000's. But the community never had the will.

Adam Cameron [06:44]  
I get the impression Clojure devs are more likely to come from a background of programming is also their hobby as well as their living though

[06:44]  
Where CFMLers are mostly day-jobbers

Sean Corfield [06:44]  
Possibly true.

Adam Cameron [06:45]  
Well I think there's more CFML devs than Clojure right?

[06:45]  
But how many active ppl on the Clojure Slack channel than here on the CFML one?

Sean Corfield [06:45]  
Dunno. There are 7,400 on the Clojure Slack and over 10,000 on the main mailing list.

Adam Cameron [06:47]  
We've got 1661 here

Sean Corfield [06:47]  
There may well be more CFML devs but the _community_ is tiny.

Adam Cameron [06:47]  
yes

[06:49]  
So I think for an existing CFML-using studio: there's probably not much risk continuing to be one because there's probably enough "guaranteed" work to keep going for the foreseeable future.

[06:50]  
But anyone who is an *employee* (or works for themselves) in the CFML community... actively (_actively_) start upskilling in other languages so one is commercially viable in roles not involving CFML.

[06:50]  
Stick with CFML whilst doing that (hey, why not?), but *start* on an exit strategy.

Sean Corfield [06:52]  
I've been advising folks to skill up and learn new languages for about a decade...

Adam Cameron [06:52]  
At least one positive side effect I have found from this is it also makes one a better CFML dev too.

Sean Corfield [06:52]  
:thumbsup:

Adam Cameron [06:53]  
(speaking from personal experience here, not just supposition, which a lot of the rest of what I say above is ;-)

Geoff Bowers [06:53]  
while “tiny”, the coldfusion community still has the support of at least a couple of super enthusiastic PHP/Closure developers to keep spirits high :rocket:

Adam Cameron [06:53]  
Now this is all not to say I don't think LAS and Lucee is doing a superb job at what they are doing

[06:54]  
Your interjections are always very valuable, Geoff

Sean Corfield [06:54]  
I supported LAS by ensuring World Singles was running on Lucee at launch.

[06:55]  
But I will also say that Lucee 5 has been a disaster from our point of view.

Adam Cameron [06:55]  
To treat your observation as meaningful though, Geoff, I def still support the community where I can. Generally now only via helping ppl with their questions here though. Like it or not, I do know a fair bit about CFML.

Geoff Bowers [06:55]  
then you guys really ought to take this conversation to #coldfusionisdead where it belongs

Sean Corfield [06:55]  
It took way too long and our code can't run on it because of the classloader issues.

Adam Cameron [06:56]  
oh suck

Sean Corfield [06:56]  
@modius perhaps you forget who set this Slack up and who owns it? (edited)

Adam Cameron [06:56]  
[I did not want to say that]

[06:56]  
It's also a general conversation about CFML, so seems apt here

[06:57]  
Sorry you don't agree with the message though, Geoff

Geoff Bowers [06:57]  
:point_up: i beg your pardon?  Seriously, you guys are beyond parody.

Adam Cameron [06:58]  
OK, right you are, Geoff.

Sean Corfield [06:58]  
Most of your contributions here seem to be just snarking at other people @modius

Adam Cameron [06:59]  
I do kinda think that you'd be better placed making a case, rather than just going for the ad hominems Geoff.

[07:00]  
It doesn't cast you in a very good light, and it's not gonna have any effect on Sean or myself, I think.

Geoff Bowers [07:00]  
to be fair i only “snark” at those who wax lyrically about the “demise" of ColdFusion while oblivious to the damage they do to the morale of others who might disagree — it is frankly disgraceful for self-professed community “leaders"

Adam Cameron [07:00]  
That's a bit better

[07:01]  
The thing is, Geoff, I think the advice we give is sound.

[07:01]  
If we are encouraging ppl to move on, then that's good *for them*.

[07:01]  
There's a broader picture here than you seem prepared to accept (quite possibly cos of your personal investment in CFML. I get that)

Sean Corfield [07:02]  
I've been giving the same advice for a decade. I've also been on the front line with every attempt at improving open source engagement and standardization for CFML.

[07:03]  
And I've put in a LOT of hours on countless open source projects as well as blogging and speaking at conferences.

Adam Cameron [07:03]  
It's not like you've actually *disagreed* or refuted anything I said above. You've just attacked the player, not the ball.

Geoff Bowers [07:03]  
@adam_cameron  in your opinion it may well be so.  Every now and then I feel compelled to "shout out" to those who might stumble across your musings that there are those of us who remain enthusiastic about the language. (edited)

Adam Cameron [07:04]  
OK if that's what yer doing, I think you could improve it a bit

[07:04]  
Cos you're just coming across as being a bit of a dick. In that - as I said - you're playing the player, not the ball.

[07:05]  
It's fine though... please, *please* present CFML (and yourself) in a better light, and give people what you perceive to be a balanced view

Sean Corfield [07:05]  
Meanwhile the Lucee TAG is basically dying because it can't get any decisions or guidance out of LAS. And that is on you @modius

Adam Cameron [07:06]  
You also seem to think that just cos you disagree with my position (which is the culmination of doing CFML religiously (sic) for 15yrs, so is perhaps at least a *bit* informed), that your opinion is correct simply cos it's you who holds it. (edited)

Sean Corfield [07:06]  
So don't come on here and get all high and mighty about how you're "enthusiastic" about CFML.

Geoff Bowers [07:06]  
No, you come here to denigrate the community to purport to support.

Adam Cameron [07:07]  
No,  I really don't

[07:07]  
And none of what I said above does that

Geoff Bowers [07:07]  
Anyway.. i didn’t mean to come here to rile people up.  I just find it incongruous with the purpose of this forum to be discussing the demise of the community it supports.  Call me old fashioned.

Adam Cameron [07:08]  
You're simply reacting poorly to something to don't like the sound of, and  - despite being called on it twice now - are *still* relying on ad hominems

Geoff Bowers [07:09]  
just saying i rely on "ad hominems” doesn’t actually mean its so.  It is in effect an "ad hominem”.

Adam Cameron [07:09]  
no, it isn't.

[07:10]  
I am addressing your argument (ie: the stuff you're writing down here), and observing that it is attacking Sean and I, rather than addressing the actual point.

Geoff Bowers [07:10]  
Anyway.. no time to debate the demise of CFML.. (*again*).  Just saying.. to those out there who are positive about CFML.. the community in general.. and the tireless efforts of many.. you’re not alone :slightly_smiling_face:  Many of us enjoy using CF every day.

Adam Cameron [07:10]  
The closest i got was saying the way yer arguing here (it being ad hominem) makes you seem to be a bit of a dick. But that's a measure of your argument, not you.

Sean Corfield [07:10]  
And some of us are here day in, day out helping other CFML devs with their problems.

Adam Cameron [07:11]  
Yes. I checked in at 6:45am on a Sunday to see if anyone needed any help

[07:11]  
Which is the first thing I do every day, and also about the last thing I do in the evening

[07:11]  
Sometimes protracting said evening whilst I "help" ;-)

[07:12]  
Not looking for any acknowledgement (and feel a bit daft even saying it), but yer a wee bit out of line, I think, Geoff

Geoff Bowers [07:12]  
While I’m the first to acknowledge your contributions to CFML.. You guys really don’t understand the damage you do having these discussions?

[07:13]  
In fact its because of your historical contributions that the damage is so great.

Sean Corfield [07:14]  
Must we all join hands and sing kumbaya? Is there to be no criticism of LAS or Adobe?

Adam Cameron [07:14]  
If by "damage" you mean "helping people pause to reflect if they should be nvesting themselves so much in CFML, and then concluding 'no, better move on'", then... well... *good*

Sean Corfield [07:14]  
Really? You think that Adam and I are responsible for the fall of the CFML empire? You're deluded mate...

Adam Cameron [07:14]  
The *community* is not some sacrosanct thing.

[07:15]  
It's a body of people. And I give a shit about my fellow developers (kumbaya), not the sign over the door saying "CFML Community" (edited)

Geoff Bowers [07:16]  
I suspect there’s little i can do to convince you.. i am full of snark and you guys.. wisdom :slightly_smiling_face:

Adam Cameron [07:16]  
Also, if just stating an opinion that even the President of LAS can't seem to counter is damaging to the community, then perhaps... well... you might be looking in the wrong place when pointing the finger

[07:16]  
Well you could engage in the debate, Geoff

[07:16]  
Almost eveyrthing you've said here is *still* just having a go at Sean and myself. (edited)

Geoff Bowers [07:17]  
@seancorfield @adam_cameron  certainly i agree you are not nearly important enough to be responsible for the fall of anything.  But the straw-man you put up is just that.  My point is simply that as respected members of the community, harping on the demise of ColdFusion does nothing to reverse the perception of the demise of ColdFusion.

Adam Cameron [07:18]  
I'm not in the game of preserving something for the sake of it though, Geoff (edited)

Geoff Bowers [07:18]  
No i get that

Adam Cameron [07:18]  
OK

[07:18]  
Patrick said something above which I thought was inaccurate, so I said so

Sean Corfield [07:18]  
I'd be a lot more sympathetic if LAS would actually engage with the TAG and provide guidance on issues that we've asked for.

Adam Cameron [07:18]  
I said so respectfully, and with what I think is justification

Geoff Bowers [07:19]  
This is not a discussion about the TAG or anything LAS related for that matter. (edited)

Adam Cameron [07:19]  
If you disagree with anything I said, then - fine - *explain that*

Geoff Bowers [07:19]  
Do you care about the CFML community?

Adam Cameron [07:19]  
That said... got 40min before visiting my lad, so need to hit the shower etc. I'll catch up when I get a mo'.

Geoff Bowers [07:20]  
It’s rhetorical… my point is simply that i find your discussion damaging to the community and unworthy of those that profess to be community leaders.  It is something we clearly disagree on.

Sean Corfield [07:20]  
But it relates to your high-handed attitude to the conversation here. It's hypocrisy to criticize us while LAS allows the TAG to stagnate for lack of responses to questions about direction.

Geoff Bowers [07:22]  
My conversation is only as high handed as your own.  You guys can certainly dish it out.  And do regularly.  I simply disagree with you. That is all.

Sean Corfield [07:23]  
I've long bitten my tongue about that. But if you're going to come in here and snark rather than helping others CFML devs then I feel it's reasonable to raise the LAS issue.

Geoff Bowers [07:25]  
Again.. re: future of CFML.  Me positive. You negative.  Which is a more productive approach to the future of the community? I guess it depends in which direction you want that community to go.

[07:26]  
If you don’t care one way or another — then i respectfully suggest remaining positive.

Sean Corfield [07:27]  
I would like to see LAS provide some much-requested guidance to the TAG, since I have your attention Mr President :smile_cat:

[07:27]  
That would be very positive.

Geoff Bowers [07:29]  
The problem is a difficult one, i agree. And not something i can readily articulate in a chat channel.

Sean Corfield [07:30]  
Understood. Just want to light a fire while I have you in front of me. If I didn't care I wouldn't bother.

[07:31]  
If I didn't care about my friends in the community I wouldn't be here at all.

[07:31]  
I was sad I couldn't justify going to dev.O this year because I missed my CFML friends.

[07:32]  
Heck, I was sad I could go to The Strange Loop because there's a good crowd of CFML community folks there!

Geoff Bowers [07:32]  
the issue is complicated because Members of LAS disagree on a way forward. And peoples ambitions need to be tempered by what is possible with the resources we have, and the enthusiasm of potential contributors.

Sean Corfield [07:32]  
Even if they're mostly ex-CFML folks at this point.

Geoff Bowers [07:34]  
But we’ve both known each other a long time — I’m honestly not here to get people off side.  Though its hard for me not to be snarky — its how i talk in person (sometimes it translates less well to a chat channel).  Take it as good natured snark though — it is the way it is intended.

Sean Corfield [07:34]  
Understood. And I know there are bound to be opposing points of view. But at least _talk_ to the TAG and figure out how we can help LAS move _something_ forward, OK?

Geoff Bowers [07:35]  
however, I am serious about how off-putting it is to wade through another “coldfusion is dead” stream of conscious — i do think its damaging to morale.

Sean Corfield [07:36]  
Heh, and MXDU is still high on my list of great fun conferences, after all these years :smiling_imp:

Geoff Bowers [07:36]  
well re: LAS there should be another General Assembly before the end of the year, and we should have a way forward in due course