gistfile1.txt

[10/9/2014 12:04:05 PM] *** ATCSECURE added . ***
[10/9/2014 12:04:10 PM] *** ATCSECURE added Arlyn Culwick ***
[10/9/2014 12:04:24 PM] .: Hey
[10/9/2014 12:04:33 PM] ATCSECURE: hey
[10/9/2014 12:04:34 PM] ATCSECURE: okay
[10/9/2014 12:04:38 PM] ATCSECURE: I sent the request
[10/9/2014 12:04:43 PM] ATCSECURE: to add him
[10/9/2014 12:04:46 PM] .: Great, he should be here any second
[10/9/2014 12:05:22 PM] *** ATCSECURE added Rynomster ***
[10/9/2014 12:05:31 PM] Rynomster: hey
[10/9/2014 12:05:36 PM] ATCSECURE: Hi ryno
[10/9/2014 12:05:50 PM] ATCSECURE: I'm Dan, lead XC dev/architect, pleasure to meet you
[10/9/2014 12:05:55 PM] Rynomster: hows it going?
[10/9/2014 12:06:07 PM] ATCSECURE: not too bad, wish it was friday :)
[10/9/2014 12:06:13 PM] Rynomster: Im Ryno, lead Shadow Dev/architech :D hehe
[10/9/2014 12:06:20 PM] Rynomster: lol friday is the same as every other day ;)
[10/9/2014 12:06:24 PM] Rynomster: only sundays are cool
[10/9/2014 12:06:44 PM] ATCSECURE: yes sundays are special... its the only day my family see's me
[10/9/2014 12:06:52 PM] Rynomster: woa O_O
[10/9/2014 12:07:07 PM] ATCSECURE: nice
[10/9/2014 12:07:27 PM] ATCSECURE: let me share my background a little bit
[10/9/2014 12:07:44 PM] Rynomster: kk
[10/9/2014 12:08:03 PM] ATCSECURE: I"m an infrastructure developer, started back in the 80's outside of XC most of my work is mesh networking/development for IP over RF
[10/9/2014 12:08:22 PM] ATCSECURE: part of that went into XC for its mixer technology
[10/9/2014 12:08:40 PM] ATCSECURE: I'm a full systems guy, the whole 9, linux through security and windows (ug)
[10/9/2014 12:09:18 PM] ATCSECURE: anyways my goal with XC is to bring it main stream  with privacy as key driver across all "mini-apps"
[10/9/2014 12:09:28 PM] Rynomster: hehe nice :) sounds awesome :D
[10/9/2014 12:09:32 PM] Rynomster: mini-apps?
[10/9/2014 12:09:39 PM] ATCSECURE: yeah like EM, xc has xchat
[10/9/2014 12:09:44 PM] ATCSECURE: which works more like skype than EM
[10/9/2014 12:09:48 PM] ATCSECURE: but very similiar in some ways
[10/9/2014 12:09:56 PM] ATCSECURE: another app, not releasted yet is a trading tool
[10/9/2014 12:10:07 PM] ATCSECURE: plus we are looking at voip and video [maybe]
[10/9/2014 12:10:41 PM] Rynomster: ah cool, very similar to us :) We also want to add an appstore and allow people to publish apps for shadow.. also mini apps :) hence why we went the html5 route
[10/9/2014 12:11:01 PM] ATCSECURE: yes, I've been working on a node.js wallet for that, to allow dev's to create plugins/modules
[10/9/2014 12:11:10 PM] Rynomster: ugh lol
[10/9/2014 12:11:16 PM] Rynomster: Rynomster doesnt like node
[10/9/2014 12:11:20 PM] Rynomster: just putting it out there :)
[10/9/2014 12:11:22 PM] ATCSECURE: :)
[10/9/2014 12:11:26 PM] ATCSECURE: well html5 is better
[10/9/2014 12:11:50 PM] ATCSECURE: and the node.js project has stalled anyways
[10/9/2014 12:11:59 PM] ATCSECURE: as work effort vs results wasn't there
[10/9/2014 12:12:12 PM] Rynomster: we're using qtwebkit, its very cool, and we've written a Objective C bridge for iOS and a Qt -> Java -> javascript bridge for Android
[10/9/2014 12:12:40 PM] Rynomster: and a lite wallet, but havent gotten around to finishing our new apps
[10/9/2014 12:12:45 PM] Rynomster: new mobile apps
[10/9/2014 12:13:00 PM] .: What are the benefits of a lite wallet again?
[10/9/2014 12:13:26 PM] ATCSECURE: does your lite wallet use bloom filters or just download the last block?
[10/9/2014 12:13:32 PM] Rynomster: SPV, you dont need the whole chain :) it uses bloom filters
[10/9/2014 12:13:43 PM] ATCSECURE: yeah we use bloom in XC"s android app too
[10/9/2014 12:14:22 PM] Rynomster: so you guys dont really want XC to be used for darkweb?
[10/9/2014 12:14:33 PM] ATCSECURE: well the issue with darkweb
[10/9/2014 12:14:44 PM] ATCSECURE: is that XC wants to engage legit business's for P2P services
[10/9/2014 12:14:48 PM] ATCSECURE: to help monetize nodes
[10/9/2014 12:15:02 PM] ATCSECURE: plus with point of sales/atm's
[10/9/2014 12:15:18 PM] ATCSECURE: XC is already supported on several atm's as well
[10/9/2014 12:15:59 PM] Rynomster: I started off as a techy, then became a system administrator, then moved to developer, then system architect for a financial informations system company.. we mainly did insurance, lending, pension and unit trust systems where I worked... I was the system architect for the core SOA system in our R&D division
[10/9/2014 12:17:26 PM] .: One thing I want to discuss is how an XC / SDC merger would be beneficial?  Would both projects have good synergy?
[10/9/2014 12:17:38 PM] .: Would SDC tech compliment XC tech?
[10/9/2014 12:17:42 PM] ATCSECURE: it sounds like it would
[10/9/2014 12:18:07 PM] .: Dan, can you lay out a bit of the direction XC is headed?
[10/9/2014 12:18:16 PM] .: The tech XC currently has
[10/9/2014 12:18:20 PM] .: And then we will do the same for SDC
[10/9/2014 12:18:43 PM] ATCSECURE: currently XC has its decentralised mixer, which really is ad-hoc mesh network, it combines "masternodes" and users in a single tx
[10/9/2014 12:18:56 PM] ATCSECURE: so in someways its based off coinjoin - from a Transaction standpoint
[10/9/2014 12:19:10 PM] ATCSECURE: but not the connectivity as generally 3+ masternodes join up and multiple users in a single tx
[10/9/2014 12:19:15 PM] ATCSECURE: then we have XCHAT
[10/9/2014 12:19:31 PM] ATCSECURE: which is similiar to sdc em but more interactive like skype w/ group chat function
[10/9/2014 12:19:59 PM] ATCSECURE: and a staking mobile wallet using bloom
[10/9/2014 12:20:11 PM] Rynomster: we've played around with group chat before, its actually rather simple :)
[10/9/2014 12:20:15 PM] .: Will the staking mobile wallet support private transactions?
[10/9/2014 12:20:18 PM] ATCSECURE: yes
[10/9/2014 12:20:21 PM] ATCSECURE: and xchat
[10/9/2014 12:20:29 PM] Rynomster: does the mobile wallet exist?
[10/9/2014 12:20:33 PM] ATCSECURE: yes
[10/9/2014 12:20:48 PM] Rynomster: staking lite wallet on the android play store? :D
[10/9/2014 12:20:55 PM] ATCSECURE: not on play storeyet
[10/9/2014 12:21:00 PM] ATCSECURE: as working on the UI
[10/9/2014 12:21:10 PM] ATCSECURE: want it to be seamless
[10/9/2014 12:21:15 PM] Rynomster: ah.. how did you guys get it to stake?
[10/9/2014 12:21:29 PM] Rynomster: we use the full nodes to build a "stake" pack
[10/9/2014 12:21:45 PM] Rynomster: so they give all the information for thin nodes to be able to stake
[10/9/2014 12:23:03 PM] ATCSECURE: yeah the staking one we are testing has the chain, its not a thin wallet
[10/9/2014 12:23:03 PM] Rynomster: We have a lite wallet that stakes, android, ios wallets, EM, stealth addresses, and are nearing our zero knowledge implementation.
[10/9/2014 12:23:31 PM] ATCSECURE: yes ZK is an exciting solution
[10/9/2014 12:24:28 PM] Rynomster: the only problem with zk is it won't allow us to have prunable outputs, and the amount of outputs will constantly grow... we really want a prunable blockchain, so we came up with a new concept which we're calling block trees... we wont have it in our initial implementation though
[10/9/2014 12:24:58 PM] Rynomster: but it is really exciting stuff
[10/9/2014 12:25:01 PM] .: block trees is directly related to your method for instant transactions, isn't it ryno?
[10/9/2014 12:25:07 PM] Rynomster: yea
[10/9/2014 12:25:30 PM] Rynomster: we're really enjoying the whole crypto scene :D we can't get enough of cryptography... if this world wasnt so fast and competetive, we'd be having so much fun :D
[10/9/2014 12:25:40 PM] ATCSECURE: so true
[10/9/2014 12:25:50 PM] Rynomster: not that we aren't, but I mean we could get lost in code for daaaayys just enjoying it :)
[10/9/2014 12:26:00 PM] ATCSECURE: instant tx's play directly into the Point of sales capabilities as well
[10/9/2014 12:26:18 PM] ATCSECURE: and thats  a key vision of the business/strategy as well
[10/9/2014 12:26:29 PM] .: Speaking of vision of the business.  Can you talk about web 3.0 a little bit and where it is at now and what you hope it will become?  Can you share with us any information on XC Inc?
[10/9/2014 12:26:38 PM] ATCSECURE: sure
[10/9/2014 12:26:50 PM] ATCSECURE: one of the projects is a decentralised file storage system
[10/9/2014 12:27:01 PM] ATCSECURE: for ad's, and other content
[10/9/2014 12:27:20 PM] ATCSECURE: XC Inc would be a 3rd party legit business/oracle/gatekeeper for that
[10/9/2014 12:27:34 PM] ATCSECURE: through the use of API's built in the wallets to pull from the filesystem
[10/9/2014 12:28:22 PM] ATCSECURE: XC Inc is looking to raise funding via ITO and register as a c-corp (if in the us) and international corporate status as well
[10/9/2014 12:28:31 PM] ATCSECURE: although the legal framework around that is still being reviewed
[10/9/2014 12:28:45 PM] Rynomster: is it going to be similar to Tahoe-LAFS?
[10/9/2014 12:28:54 PM] .: Do you have a guesstimate on when the ITO will be held?
[10/9/2014 12:29:27 PM] ATCSECURE: yes very similiar to  Tahoe-LAFS... as for the timing/date, not sure yet, it could be 4 weeks or maybe AFTER the holidays
[10/9/2014 12:29:39 PM] ATCSECURE: gem's ICO is nov 1st I think
[10/9/2014 12:29:58 PM] ATCSECURE: and then holidays so the timing is critical to maximise success
[10/9/2014 12:30:09 PM] Rynomster: what's gem? :)
[10/9/2014 12:30:23 PM] ATCSECURE: another coin
[10/9/2014 12:30:27 PM] Rynomster: what does ITO stand for? Initial <> offering?
[10/9/2014 12:30:27 PM] ATCSECURE: trying to do a twitter system
[10/9/2014 12:30:33 PM] ATCSECURE: token
[10/9/2014 12:30:36 PM] Rynomster: oh nice :D
[10/9/2014 12:30:40 PM] ATCSECURE: to keep the SEC from putting me in jail
[10/9/2014 12:30:47 PM] Rynomster: lol
[10/9/2014 12:31:01 PM] ATCSECURE: also as part of our web3.0,we have a decentralised twitter solution as well
[10/9/2014 12:31:22 PM] ATCSECURE: another part of what I'm doing is market analysis on which "dev buckets" make sense
[10/9/2014 12:31:26 PM] ATCSECURE: and solve problmes
[10/9/2014 12:31:54 PM] ATCSECURE: no point in making a solution nobody will use
[10/9/2014 12:32:07 PM] Rynomster: yea I agree... it needs to be used, and needs to be user friendly
[10/9/2014 12:32:24 PM] ATCSECURE: also XC has a solid team for its PR side
[10/9/2014 12:32:39 PM] .: Dan, how much of what you have shared is idea/goal vs currently in development?  If you don't mind sharing
[10/9/2014 12:33:21 PM] ATCSECURE: the web3.0 stuff is not in development yet
[10/9/2014 12:33:28 PM] ATCSECURE: the file system is in the design phase
[10/9/2014 12:33:31 PM] ATCSECURE: everything else is done
[10/9/2014 12:33:39 PM] .: I see, thanks.
[10/9/2014 12:33:48 PM] .: How large is XC's team? Core developers?
[10/9/2014 12:34:21 PM] ATCSECURE: 2 core dev's, with another 5 resources
[10/9/2014 12:34:28 PM] ATCSECURE: across different skillsets
[10/9/2014 12:34:30 PM] ATCSECURE: for coding
[10/9/2014 12:34:31 PM] .: That's basically the same as ours
[10/9/2014 12:34:42 PM] .: Isn't it ryno?
[10/9/2014 12:34:57 PM] .: who is the 2nd core dev, if you don't mind me asking?
[10/9/2014 12:35:18 PM] .: is it Xander ?
[10/9/2014 12:35:23 PM] ATCSECURE: nope
[10/9/2014 12:35:30 PM] ATCSECURE: Christian Howe
[10/9/2014 12:35:46 PM] ATCSECURE: Xander did the webpage at launch and does deb builds but thats about it, no coding
[10/9/2014 12:35:55 PM] Rynomster: we have myself, tecnovert as core devs, ludx as a contributor, and ffmad and crz as frontend devs
[10/9/2014 12:37:16 PM] Rynomster: there has been quite a bit of community involvement as well... they setup a wiki for us, 2nd block explorer, branding, and hosting nodes, etc
[10/9/2014 12:37:18 PM] ATCSECURE: how many nodes does SDC have in its network
[10/9/2014 12:37:19 PM] .: If SDC / XC were to merge.  Ryno: How do you feel SDC's team could improve upon the XC project?  Dan:  How do you feel SDC could improve upon the XC project?
[10/9/2014 12:37:58 PM] ATCSECURE: well I think that a merger would provide a larger force in the marketplace, bringing the best of both projects
[10/9/2014 12:38:19 PM] ATCSECURE: and with XC focusing on a legit strategy as busines to bring this tech mainstream, it provides a path
[10/9/2014 12:38:34 PM] ATCSECURE: to really help crypto
[10/9/2014 12:39:48 PM] ATCSECURE: also XC has 3 more core team members, not dev's, Nick, ARlyn and Dan, - nick is  a key part of business strategy and VC/investment portfolio planning
[10/9/2014 12:39:49 PM] Rynomster: Yea I think we could help allot with the workload, and we love working on exciting projects... I'm not sure what we could improve upon, but I'm certain we could help stengthen it
[10/9/2014 12:40:18 PM] ATCSECURE: well ryno, what are your goals?
[10/9/2014 12:40:20 PM] .: Ryno:  I think adding ZK to XC, as well as instant transactions.  Plus you and tecnovert wanted to build VOIP / Video
[10/9/2014 12:40:27 PM] .: That's a HUGE gain for XC
[10/9/2014 12:40:31 PM] ATCSECURE: yes it is
[10/9/2014 12:40:40 PM] ATCSECURE: also too, I ran a VoIP company back in 2000/2001
[10/9/2014 12:40:50 PM | Edited 12:40:55 PM] Rynomster: I can't say for certain how many nodes we have on our network to be honest
[10/9/2014 12:41:22 PM] ATCSECURE: ok
[10/9/2014 12:41:56 PM] Rynomster: ill check if there's logs or something in the dnsseeder
[10/9/2014 12:42:14 PM] .: Another question (I am playing moderator): If SDC / XC were to merge, what are some hesitances or concerns that either of you may have?
[10/9/2014 12:42:39 PM] .: If any
[10/9/2014 12:43:11 PM] ATCSECURE: for me, I think its important to have a similiar vision and set of goals.
[10/9/2014 12:43:36 PM] ATCSECURE: and that a simply statement from me - bring crypto and blockchain tech to mainstream usability
[10/9/2014 12:44:33 PM] ATCSECURE: and building a business  along the way
[10/9/2014 12:45:49 PM] Rynomster: yea I think thats important too, we have to have the same visions and goals :) everyone will need to be passionate and excited :D for me its about learning and changing the world :D
[10/9/2014 12:46:05 PM] Rynomster: hesitances would be that we'd lose control of our project
[10/9/2014 12:46:22 PM] Rynomster: or concerns should I say
[10/9/2014 12:46:27 PM] Rynomster: but that's about it
[10/9/2014 12:46:27 PM] ATCSECURE: and a very valid concern
[10/9/2014 12:47:29 PM] ATCSECURE: I Think though we can work towards a solution that prevents your concerns
[10/9/2014 12:48:24 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Hello folks. Sorry for the delayed arrival.
[10/9/2014 12:48:32 PM] Rynomster: are you guys going to setup a XC foundation in the future? or will it all be run through XC Inc?
[10/9/2014 12:48:41 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Exciting conversation you've been having!
[10/9/2014 12:48:43 PM] ATCSECURE: well I think XC needs a foundation
[10/9/2014 12:48:53 PM] ATCSECURE: outside of XC Inc to provide that seperation
[10/9/2014 12:49:07 PM] ATCSECURE: and we talked about it at launch and have a few members interested in that as well
[10/9/2014 12:49:50 PM] ATCSECURE: we could create a charter for the foundation
[10/9/2014 12:50:26 PM] .: Hi Arlyn :)
[10/9/2014 12:50:48 PM] ATCSECURE: Ryno - meet Arlyn, he is XC's PR mastermind
[10/9/2014 12:50:56 PM] ATCSECURE: best in the business :)
[10/9/2014 12:50:56 PM] Rynomster: hey Arlyn
[10/9/2014 12:51:07 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Hey Ryno, you're from SA?
[10/9/2014 12:51:10 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Me too.
[10/9/2014 12:51:13 PM] .: But perhaps too smart for his own good
[10/9/2014 12:51:18 PM] .: :)
[10/9/2014 12:51:19 PM] Arlyn Culwick: - though I'm in Oxford at the moment.
[10/9/2014 12:51:36 PM] Rynomster: as for a merge, how would you guys want it to take place? with a hardfork to kill the shadow network and a hardfork for XC to create new coins for shadow holders to convert to?
[10/9/2014 12:51:39 PM] Arlyn Culwick: . - yeah yeah ;)
[10/9/2014 12:51:53 PM] Rynomster: yea im from South Africa :)
[10/9/2014 12:52:05 PM] Rynomster: its hot here lately O_O
[10/9/2014 12:52:06 PM] Rynomster: lol
[10/9/2014 12:52:19 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Man, I want to get sunburnt. Not enough UV around here.
[10/9/2014 12:52:27 PM] ATCSECURE: ryno - I think thats an option
[10/9/2014 12:52:34 PM] .: One concern that I have, and I want to state it out front, (this is more on the technical details of a merger, should we decide that both projects are a good fit):  We would have to hard fork XC and give XCurrency to current SDC holderS (similar to the DRK proposal).  I don't believe any on SDC could form any agreement if SDC were to only be compensated in XC Inc shares
[10/9/2014 12:53:55 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Fair enough. If we do that, we'd need to set up the introduction of the merge quite carefully to ensure that it's received positively.
[10/9/2014 12:54:05 PM] ATCSECURE: . - yes I agree, I wasn't thinking XC inc shares
[10/9/2014 12:54:10 PM] ATCSECURE: it needs to be xcurrency
[10/9/2014 12:54:21 PM] Arlyn Culwick: PR-wise this will be a very unexpected thing and so it would need to be handled strategically.
[10/9/2014 12:54:25 PM] ATCSECURE: maybe we think about xc inc shares for the sdc team members though
[10/9/2014 12:54:35 PM] ATCSECURE: as part of the overall deal
[10/9/2014 12:54:41 PM] .: So would this cause inflation of the overall supply? 
 
While, the coin supply would go up, ShadowCoins blockchain would be frozen forever and 
would lose all of it's value. The value of that currency would be transferred over to the 
Darkcoin chain. So other coins in Darkcoin would not lose value and ShadowCoin users 
would maintain their value. From an economics perspective, just printing money will divid it’s value. But combining crypto­currencies (or companies in the existing system) by inflation will 
maintain value due to the utility and community that is pre­existing.
[10/9/2014 12:54:44 PM] *** ATCSECURE added nick ***
[10/9/2014 12:54:44 PM] .: I found this helpful
[10/9/2014 12:54:44 PM] *** ATCSECURE added nick ***
[10/9/2014 12:54:52 PM] ATCSECURE: I'm bringing Nick into the discussion
[10/9/2014 12:55:06 PM] .: Hi Nick.  I'm .
[10/9/2014 12:55:15 PM] Rynomster: Hi Nick, I'm Ryno
[10/9/2014 12:55:28 PM] .: Arlyn, PR wise this is a great opportunity for XC.  We would leak all of DRK's contacts to SDC
[10/9/2014 12:55:38 PM] nick: Hey
[10/9/2014 12:55:49 PM] nick: Nice to meet you all.
[10/9/2014 12:55:50 PM] .: then announce that we feel that XC has better fundamentals and a greater chance to "disrupt"
[10/9/2014 12:56:18 PM] Arlyn Culwick: . - yes, that sounds nice :)
[10/9/2014 12:56:19 PM | Edited 12:56:26 PM] Arlyn Culwick: The fundamentals of the merge depend on the public being convinced that by combining the two projects, the resulting value is greater than the two on their own.
[10/9/2014 12:56:27 PM] ATCSECURE: I think that can be done
[10/9/2014 12:56:41 PM] Arlyn Culwick: It needs a narrative, not just a single announcement.
[10/9/2014 12:56:51 PM] .: Arlyn, I agree.  And I think this can be done.  Because SDC adds to XC, stealth addreses, ZK, instant transactions, and VOIP / Video
[10/9/2014 12:56:57 PM] .: and HTML5 / lite wallet
[10/9/2014 12:57:05 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Yes, the tech value is undoubtable.
[10/9/2014 12:57:09 PM] .: People will see the value of that
[10/9/2014 12:57:22 PM] nick: Exactly, Arlyn. The press release would have to highlight the benefits of a merger. On that note, I have always believed / and promoted the idealogy that in order for 'crypto
[10/9/2014 12:57:38 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I'm going to need to make a case for 1+1 =5, rather than 2, if you know what I mean. ;)
[10/9/2014 12:57:42 PM] nick: to break into the mainstream, and have relivence outside of the crypto-community, there needs to partnerships and cooperation.
[10/9/2014 12:57:44 PM] .: Repasting for Nick to read: [10/9/14, 10:54:39 AM] .: So would this cause inflation of the overall supply? 
 
While, the coin supply would go up, ShadowCoins blockchain would be frozen forever and 
would lose all of it's value. The value of that currency would be transferred over to the 
Darkcoin chain. So other coins in Darkcoin would not lose value and ShadowCoin users 
would maintain their value. From an economics perspective, just printing money will divid it’s value. But combining cryptocurrencies (or companies in the existing system) by inflation will 
maintain value due to the utility and community that is preexisting.
[10/9/14, 10:54:43 AM] .: I found this helpful
[10/9/2014 12:57:46 PM] nick: Both in development, and marketing.
[10/9/2014 12:58:56 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Has the SDC community been told about this possible merge?
[10/9/2014 12:59:05 PM] Arlyn Culwick: - or has it been hinted at?
[10/9/2014 12:59:37 PM] Rynomster: no
[10/9/2014 12:59:44 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Great. Suits me.
[10/9/2014 12:59:46 PM] .: No.  Less than a handful of people know about this
[10/9/2014 12:59:49 PM] .: including you guys
[10/9/2014 1:00:09 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Perfect. Let's keep it that way until we do a co-ordinated announcement.
[10/9/2014 1:00:20 PM] .: Well, we have to form an agreement first
[10/9/2014 1:00:27 PM] Arlyn Culwick: If this stuff leaks out wrong, it could be very destructive.
[10/9/2014 1:00:28 PM] .: :)
[10/9/2014 1:00:44 PM] Arlyn Culwick: It'll get twisted all sorts of horrible ways by trolls and paranoid people.
[10/9/2014 1:00:46 PM] .: Don't worry.  DRK proposed to us about a month ago, and we've been in communications since
[10/9/2014 1:00:49 PM] .: it won't get leaked on our end
[10/9/2014 1:01:04 PM] Rynomster: lol its kinda strange, because a blockchain is supposed to be decentralized, yet we're going to prove that there are people in control
[10/9/2014 1:01:17 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Great. That's good to know. Crypto seems to be a very leaky place :)
[10/9/2014 1:01:41 PM] nick: How much of an increase on supply is required?
[10/9/2014 1:01:48 PM] ATCSECURE: ryno - ah yes, at some point you need a centralised authority to conduct business
[10/9/2014 1:01:49 PM] Rynomster: I guess there will always be a consensus... if enough people decide against it, it wont happen
[10/9/2014 1:02:10 PM] .: We would have to work out those details nick.  Historically XC has been valued at around 5x higher than SDC, market cap wise, so a rough estimation would be by 20%
[10/9/2014 1:02:16 PM] Rynomster: so we need to get both communities to agree I guess
[10/9/2014 1:02:18 PM] .: XC supply would increase 20% with a buyout
[10/9/2014 1:02:26 PM] .: But it's market cap theoretically should increase by 20% as wlel
[10/9/2014 1:02:31 PM] ATCSECURE: about 1million coins or so
[10/9/2014 1:02:32 PM] .: So, current XC owners retain their value
[10/9/2014 1:02:41 PM] nick: So about 1.1 million coins
[10/9/2014 1:02:45 PM] ATCSECURE: :)
[10/9/2014 1:02:52 PM] .: But I would predict that XC's market cap would increase by more than 20%
[10/9/2014 1:02:54 PM] .: Because this is big news
[10/9/2014 1:03:04 PM] .: And the added value of cooperation, communities effectually doubling
[10/9/2014 1:03:08 PM] .: is big
[10/9/2014 1:03:16 PM] nick: That's not that bad, and the added tech / team developers / and user base from shadow would probably increase the value, yes.
[10/9/2014 1:03:17 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Yes, let's make sure that the picture is well-painted.
[10/9/2014 1:03:19 PM] .: We have regularly over 120+ active IRC members
[10/9/2014 1:03:25 PM] .: in shadows channel
[10/9/2014 1:03:25 PM] nick: I think the biggest thing....
[10/9/2014 1:03:47 PM] nick: Would be crafting a very detailed press release about the merger. That would be the most crucial hurdle.
[10/9/2014 1:03:51 PM] nick: People need to understand the value.
[10/9/2014 1:03:54 PM] nick: They need to be educated.
[10/9/2014 1:03:55 PM] .: I trust in Arlyn
[10/9/2014 1:04:01 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Thanks . :)
[10/9/2014 1:04:02 PM] nick: I think we have great PR guys.
[10/9/2014 1:04:03 PM] .: And all we need to do is flash around ZK + Instant transactions
[10/9/2014 1:04:17 PM] .: Also, rynomster is the first ever to develop Encrypted Messaging for any crypto
[10/9/2014 1:04:25 PM] .: he is pretty reputable
[10/9/2014 1:04:29 PM] nick: Not only does the tech add value, but your development team adds value. When I invest in a coin, I look at the team behind it.
[10/9/2014 1:04:37 PM] nick: How many devs is your team?
[10/9/2014 1:04:40 PM] nick: 2?
[10/9/2014 1:04:40 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Nick earlier I suggested narrating it in a couple of pieces, all colliding into a single big announcement.
[10/9/2014 1:04:42 PM] .: We have 2 core devs
[10/9/2014 1:04:42 PM] Rynomster: 2
[10/9/2014 1:04:45 PM] .: And 3 support
[10/9/2014 1:04:54 PM] Arlyn Culwick: the narration will set perceptions up to respond favourably.
[10/9/2014 1:05:15 PM] nick: I need to read up on your history and community forum, but are your identities public?
[10/9/2014 1:05:32 PM] nick: I agree, Arlyn.
[10/9/2014 1:05:36 PM] .: Ryno has done proof of developer, but his real name is not public
[10/9/2014 1:05:41 PM] .: Everyone knows rynomster on BCT though
[10/9/2014 1:05:43 PM] Rynomster: mine is like semi public... No one knows about tecnovert, he doesnt really talk to anyone
[10/9/2014 1:05:56 PM] nick: Okay, PoD is good. Yeah, there are always some guys in the background, which is fine.
[10/9/2014 1:06:01 PM] .: tecnovert and ryno know each other in real life though
[10/9/2014 1:06:05 PM] .: He is safe
[10/9/2014 1:06:08 PM] nick: Was just thinking how we would structure a 'team announcement'
[10/9/2014 1:06:27 PM] nick: As you know, all of our ID's are public. Not saying you need to take the same direction.
[10/9/2014 1:06:54 PM] nick: XC and SDC already have PoD on both ends, so I think we are fine on that regard.
[10/9/2014 1:07:03 PM] Rynomster: yea I dont have a problem with that, but tecnovert will... he doesn't want anyone to know anything about him lol
[10/9/2014 1:07:12 PM] nick: That's fine.
[10/9/2014 1:07:16 PM] .: That's fine ryno.  You are the face of SDC, not tecnovert
[10/9/2014 1:07:25 PM] ATCSECURE: I think thats okay
[10/9/2014 1:07:30 PM] .: Also, we have soepkip (from blackcoin) as our current community manager
[10/9/2014 1:07:30 PM] nick: Agreed, Dan.
[10/9/2014 1:07:36 PM] ATCSECURE: not everybody on the team needs to be dox'd
[10/9/2014 1:07:48 PM] Rynomster: lol
[10/9/2014 1:08:11 PM] nick: I think we have very strong community managers / PR people, so we could handle any situation / conversation that may arise.
[10/9/2014 1:08:26 PM] .: Yep
[10/9/2014 1:08:34 PM] nick: I don't think we would have a problem with a hardfork either, as we've been through a few with no incident.
[10/9/2014 1:08:56 PM] nick: That said, I don't see a way other than a fork to bring SDC into the loop.
[10/9/2014 1:09:05 PM] nick: But again, I'm not the best tech guy, so you guys would have a better notion than I on that.
[10/9/2014 1:09:15 PM] .: A hard fork is a must
[10/9/2014 1:09:34 PM] ATCSECURE: yes we need to hard fork
[10/9/2014 1:10:22 PM] nick: How much advanced notice would we give?
[10/9/2014 1:11:09 PM] .: We would need to have the % of added XC predetermined before any notice given
[10/9/2014 1:11:25 PM] .: Basically, the buy-out conditions
[10/9/2014 1:11:38 PM] Rynomster: Im trying to figure out how we'd deal with it from our side, sure you guys can create more coins, but we cant just stop the blockchain
[10/9/2014 1:12:00 PM] Arlyn Culwick: You can give a cutoff date.
[10/9/2014 1:12:09 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Beyond which transactions won't count.
[10/9/2014 1:12:34 PM] Arlyn Culwick: That date can be the same date upon which new XC coins are created.
[10/9/2014 1:12:42 PM] Rynomster: but that would mean whatever shadow is trading at on the day we announce is whats decided... how do we get exchanges, merchants, etc to stop taking SDC
[10/9/2014 1:12:46 PM] Arlyn Culwick: And on that date, their relative market caps will determine the ratio.
[10/9/2014 1:12:55 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Ah yes, good point.
[10/9/2014 1:12:59 PM] .: I think DRK's proposal outlines a good theory: https://www.zerobin.net/?bc95f647985aa947#LnIf8zydh/3zq2iVO5fKamoczdBj2vPpQDvdxVte21g=
[10/9/2014 1:13:18 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Yeah.
[10/9/2014 1:13:23 PM] .: Is it possible to freeze the blockchain?
[10/9/2014 1:13:29 PM] .: Like it says in that DRK proposal?
[10/9/2014 1:13:40 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I don't think so.
[10/9/2014 1:14:03 PM] .: Ryno, maybe ask Evan his thoughts on it (as if are interested in the merger with DRK) and let's hear his thoughts ;)
[10/9/2014 1:14:17 PM] Rynomster: mmmm well we still use a checkpoint server, so in theory we could create a checkpoint that wont allow any blocks through, but it will eventually just start banning everyone I guess :\
[10/9/2014 1:14:17 PM] .: I am sure we can figure something out though
[10/9/2014 1:14:31 PM] nick: We would need to draft a statement to the exchanges.
[10/9/2014 1:14:36 PM] nick: What exchanges are you traded on?
[10/9/2014 1:14:44 PM] nick: I have good relations with Bittrex / Polo
[10/9/2014 1:15:11 PM] Rynomster: MP, Polo, Bittrex, c-cex, cryptsy, swisscex, lazycoins
[10/9/2014 1:16:56 PM] Rynomster: its really difficult to do this without the communities though
[10/9/2014 1:17:14 PM] Rynomster: need to be really convincing
[10/9/2014 1:17:54 PM] Rynomster: from our side it would be easy, we can announce we are possibly going to merge with "someone", and get people to discuss it
[10/9/2014 1:18:07 PM] .: It would be fine, IMO.  We would already work out the logistics / details of the merger.  Lets say XC's supply is increased by 20%, then distributed to SDC holders.
[10/9/2014 1:18:20 PM] .: I really don't think it will take much convincing
[10/9/2014 1:18:43 PM] ATCSECURE: I agree having the community support is a must-have
[10/9/2014 1:19:14 PM] .: the biggest community we would need to win, I think, is XC's community
[10/9/2014 1:19:16 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Getting the communities on board would minimise the shock of it.
[10/9/2014 1:19:19 PM] .: I feel SDC's will be easier to win
[10/9/2014 1:19:23 PM] .: but i could be wrong
[10/9/2014 1:19:27 PM] Arlyn Culwick: And they'd spread the excitement.
[10/9/2014 1:19:36 PM] .: Well, it may be equally difficult...
[10/9/2014 1:19:50 PM] Rynomster: our community is allot smaller :P
[10/9/2014 1:19:52 PM] .: But I feel that the general consensus will be positive in both communities
[10/9/2014 1:19:57 PM] nick: We need to show them why eco-systems in crypto is more valuable than just being on your own.
[10/9/2014 1:20:06 PM] Arlyn Culwick: That's not too hard
[10/9/2014 1:20:11 PM] .: Here is how I see it
[10/9/2014 1:20:13 PM] nick: This is how I approach NHZ by creating an eco system with NXT / Bitshares X and XC
[10/9/2014 1:20:50 PM] nick: I agree, I think the XC community has a better understanding of where value is derived from, and the direction that we (XC) and crypto needs to move in.
[10/9/2014 1:21:01 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I love the idea of a future rich in partnerships and collaboration.
[10/9/2014 1:21:08 PM] Rynomster: just checked on the dns seeder, there are between 437 and 636 nodes
[10/9/2014 1:21:10 PM] .: the pro for SDC is that they get attached to a longer standing, reputable coin with a clear vision and very strong tech.  They will get XC coins and XC inc shares.  This is a type of double plus.  What they lose though, is potential gain.  It's much easier for SDC's 500k market cap to increase 5x in value than XC's 2.7m market cap to 5x
[10/9/2014 1:21:45 PM] .: The pro for XC is that it gains double the devs, double the community, (well this is pro for SDC too), but it gains ZK, instant transactions, html5, lite wallet, and possibly voip/video
[10/9/2014 1:22:19 PM] .: the cons for XC is that the community may feel that their XC's just became inflated
[10/9/2014 1:22:23 PM] Rynomster: we dont have instant transactions yet :P it gains a valuable idea I guess
[10/9/2014 1:22:39 PM] .: ryno, you can do instant transactions.  no problem :)
[10/9/2014 1:22:40 PM] nick: Well, with xc inc shares, that is something people need to buy into.
[10/9/2014 1:22:46 PM] nick: Details still being discussed on that.
[10/9/2014 1:22:49 PM] nick: Can't say much.
[10/9/2014 1:22:55 PM] .: I thought 10 XC = 1 share
[10/9/2014 1:22:58 PM] .: automaticaly?
[10/9/2014 1:23:15 PM] Arlyn Culwick: That's the current plan, yes. And people can also buy shares.
[10/9/2014 1:23:15 PM] ATCSECURE: and instant transactions provides the ability to bring point of sales to the table
[10/9/2014 1:23:52 PM] .: Instant transactions that can processes millions of tx's a second as opposed to bitcoins 7 per second is a huge deal
[10/9/2014 1:24:11 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I love the idea of instant tx. Bloat?
[10/9/2014 1:24:53 PM | Edited 1:25:08 PM] Rynomster: no we'll have prunable outputs on our blocktrees... we'd need to explain the concept, it works with mini chains, its a similar concept to side chains I guess, just allot more practical
[10/9/2014 1:25:08 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I'd love to hear about that.
[10/9/2014 1:25:14 PM] ATCSECURE: hmm okay are masternodes required?
[10/9/2014 1:25:20 PM] .: It is definitive that XC holders will automatically receive XC inc shares at a yet-to-be-finalized ratio, right?
[10/9/2014 1:25:29 PM] ATCSECURE: . yes
[10/9/2014 1:25:44 PM] ATCSECURE: the goal is to reward xc holders
[10/9/2014 1:26:22 PM] Rynomster: no, but there will be pools, so the nodes closer to the other pools would kinda be "master" nodes, but because of the nature of p2p, it will work itself out
[10/9/2014 1:26:56 PM] ATCSECURE: ok
[10/9/2014 1:27:01 PM | Edited 1:27:10 PM] Arlyn Culwick: So if someone controls a pool, effectively they're more influential because of there being a smaller number of players (i.e. pools).
[10/9/2014 1:27:10 PM] Rynomster: its a work in progress concept, and needs lots of experimentation, but its something new and unique :)
[10/9/2014 1:27:26 PM] ATCSECURE: well we could work this into the mixers
[10/9/2014 1:28:21 PM] Rynomster: yea we have thought about the possibility, there's allot we've thought about, and allot we still need to think about... don't really have time to experiment that much :) but if we had the time it would happen
[10/9/2014 1:28:46 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Is there a chance that a merge could give you more time?
[10/9/2014 1:29:15 PM] Arlyn Culwick: i.e. greater dev resources, etc.
[10/9/2014 1:29:27 PM] Rynomster: hehe well I think it would, we currently work about 16-18 hours / day, I feel a merge will allow more time to experiment, seeing as there are more resources, etc
[10/9/2014 1:29:41 PM | Edited 1:29:56 PM] Arlyn Culwick: A question about zero-knowledge proofs: they're an amazing technology if you can get rid of the bloat and the need for a server. But what sorts of real-world use cases are there for them? 
- they're not flexible, i.e. you can't choose to reveal/prove the amount sent, the receiver, or the sender's address independently of each other.
- so will they only be useful between people who trust each other?
[10/9/2014 1:31:35 PM] Rynomster: you can prove to the receiver how much you've sent to him without him ever knowing where it came from
[10/9/2014 1:32:05 PM] Arlyn Culwick: In a lot of scenarios that's a limitation.
[10/9/2014 1:33:08 PM] .: The more options XC has the better.  ZK as an added option, adds value to the currency & platform.
[10/9/2014 1:33:19 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Yes, definitely.
[10/9/2014 1:33:30 PM] Arlyn Culwick: It's just important that we know how to use it.
[10/9/2014 1:33:35 PM] Rynomster: We're not moving to a full anonymous network, people would only use them to separate the outputs from the inputs
[10/9/2014 1:33:55 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Ok.
[10/9/2014 1:33:57 PM] Rynomster: so if you want to end the money trail, you'll have that capability
[10/9/2014 1:34:02 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Nice.
[10/9/2014 1:34:08 PM] Rynomster: it needs to be a hybrid network, because its PoS
[10/9/2014 1:34:09 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Very useful for paying to yourself.
[10/9/2014 1:34:43 PM] Rynomster: yea lol, you could pay yourself and then send to the next person, then they'll know it came from you, but not where you got it from
[10/9/2014 1:34:51 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Indeed :)
[10/9/2014 1:35:09 PM] Arlyn Culwick: That's the sort of practical thing I'm trying to get my head around for retail scenarios
[10/9/2014 1:35:19 PM] Arlyn Culwick: - and any scenario where you don't necessarily trust the other party.
[10/9/2014 1:35:27 PM] Rynomster: we also have encrypted narrations on our stealth address implementation, as well as narrations / references on normal transactions
[10/9/2014 1:35:35 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Narrations?
[10/9/2014 1:35:44 PM] Rynomster: like a reference for the payment
[10/9/2014 1:35:50 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Oh I see.
[10/9/2014 1:35:52 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Provable?
[10/9/2014 1:36:17 PM] Rynomster: yea
[10/9/2014 1:36:21 PM] Arlyn Culwick: That's very useful.
[10/9/2014 1:36:56 PM] Rynomster: well on normal transactions the references arent encrypted, as you may not have the recipients public key, but on stealth address transactions they're always encrypted
[10/9/2014 1:38:36 PM] Rynomster: the only thing is with zk payments we can't use that, otherwise people would know where it came from I guess... thats a limitation
[10/9/2014 1:38:48 PM] Rynomster: well people as in the receiver
[10/9/2014 1:39:16 PM] .: HEy
[10/9/2014 1:39:29 PM | Edited 1:39:40 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Yeah. If there's a way to prove payment to only the receiver, without making the information public on the blockchain, then this would extend XC's current functionality.
[10/9/2014 1:39:48 PM] *** Rynomster has changed the conversation topic to "A confidential discussion amongst awesome people" ***
[10/9/2014 1:40:04 PM] Arlyn Culwick: But of course ZK isn't really intended for that.
[10/9/2014 1:40:14 PM] Arlyn Culwick: It's a total blackout.
[10/9/2014 1:40:21 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Nice title there :)
[10/9/2014 1:41:01 PM] nick: :)
[10/9/2014 1:41:09 PM] Rynomster: you guys happy with continuing discussions tomorrow or at a later stage? once we've all had time to digest it? :)
[10/9/2014 1:41:19 PM] nick: I have like 19 conversations going right now, so excuse my lack of responses.
[10/9/2014 1:41:25 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I would be. Dinner time here.
[10/9/2014 1:41:34 PM] Arlyn Culwick: - as in South Africa Ryno...
[10/9/2014 1:41:38 PM] ATCSECURE: yes that works ryno
[10/9/2014 1:41:40 PM] nick: That sounds good, give us time to go over this as well.
[10/9/2014 1:42:04 PM | Edited 1:42:08 PM] Rynomster: awesome :D thanks for the chat guys :D Looking forward to the next convo :D
[10/9/2014 1:42:16 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Indeed. Thank you. Exciting stuff here. :)
[10/9/2014 1:42:23 PM] Rynomster: and nice to meet you all
[10/9/2014 1:42:23 PM] .: Thanks for your time guys
[10/9/2014 1:42:31 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Thanks for setting this up ..
[10/9/2014 1:42:36 PM] Rynomster: yes thank you for your time
[10/9/2014 1:42:40 PM] Rynomster: :)
[10/9/2014 1:42:41 PM] .: No problem
[10/9/2014 1:43:01 PM] .: Hopefully we can come to an agreement where both parties can greatly benefit :)
[10/9/2014 1:43:22 PM] Arlyn Culwick: I'm optimistic from the way things look here.
[10/9/2014 1:44:06 PM] .: Got to fully convince one more person on our side.  I think we can though.
[10/9/2014 1:44:31 PM] .: Anyways, talk to y'all later
[10/9/2014 1:44:38 PM] ATCSECURE: yes thank you everyone
[10/9/2014 1:45:11 PM] Arlyn Culwick: Cheers everyone!