gistfile1.txt

<jchance> jcll the forum warning was a completely ridiculous and passive aggressive response to trying to make you aware of something I saw as a problem without any humor or pretense.  The fact that it was in a thread, populated 100% by mods and admins, discussing the new forum software only adds to the fact.   You've pretty much done nothing but ensure I keep my mouth shut from now on.
<JohnAdams1735> It was a chance for us to see how the warning system works.
<jchance> Generally it's a good idea to tell someone their going to be your test subject before you get them all pissed off.
<JohnAdams1735> Fiar enough
<JohnAdams1735> *fair
<JohnAdams1735> But it also says to tag NSFW as such
<jchance> And to address the root issue, I don't see how any of you can think hitler smileys and naked women animated gifs belong on that forum.   The whole "we'll ban them if they use them wrong" mentality is flawed because there is no use of a hitler smiley, etc. in line with this communities guidelines
<JohnAdams1735> Yea, that is a good point
<JohnAdams1735> And imo it's overly complicated process to make those not vivisble anyway in the list of posts
<draykhar> I'm going to agree with that, tharine and i went through last night: there's a lot that don't fit withing our rules at all: why have em?
<jchance> But I am done and over it. I;ve made my point
<jcll> jchance: Was a mix of a test and a demonstration of my early point. "And if people end up using them in a rule breaking manner we can always moderate the content."
<JohnAdams1735> I'm sorry this was upsetting :/
<Tharine> Is jchance going to have his warning point removed? :/
<jcll> I expect our community to use them in accordance to our policys. And our policy about the forums is that NSFW stuff has to be tagged. That is it.
<jchance> What tag do I need to wrap a hitler smiley waving a swastika flag do I need to use exactly to be within community policies?
<jchance> this is the point I was making.
<jchance> There is no way that is acceptable by any standard, so why is it in there?
<jcll> If someone uses it they have to face the consciences.
<jchance> So you're grief baiting the forums
<jcll> No. I am expecting people to use good judgement. I am not going to baby our userbase.
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<Tharine> It's not so much babying the userbase as disallowing them from taking those steps in the first place
<jchance> keeping a gun out of reach of a child is not babying, it's good sense.
<jcll> Tharine: Lets block the F based homophobic slur on the servers then.
<jcll> The fact you can say/use something does not mean you have to.
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<Tharine> I don't think choice of emoticons is really comparable to censoring words on the server
<Tharine> There is no use for the :faggot: emoticon on the forums at all. You can discuss the context of the word faggot on the servers in a sensible and no-need-to-moderate manner
<jcll> Well Tharine you are entitled to your opinion.
<Tolgar> um... no you can't lol
<forty_two> Just looking at the smilies on there, so many of them and 99% are utterly useless :/
<draykhar> let's play it fair: What use can you find for the emoticon, jcll?
<jchance> That argument doesn't hold water either.   Someone can say "I'm gay" or "I need to go smoke a fag" and they have double meanings where there is a judgement call.   Posting a :faggot: or :nazi: smiley on the forums is never going to be OK
<draykhar> Does it benefit in any way to have it?
<forty_two> Surely there's a way to crop it down to the 5 or so you might reasonably consider using?
<Tharine> Ah you know what I mean though Tolgar, you can have the discussion and not necessarily find yourself banned
<jcll> Then don't use them.
<draykhar> Then get rid of it. It has absolutely zero value
<Tolgar> actually we come down hard on people that start that discussion as being nothing but flame bait
<Tharine> Yeah, course
<Tolgar> I dont see why, with this change in forum, we have suddenly changed what the forums are used for
<draykhar> t^
<Tharine> jcll: That is exactly the same ridiculous attitude you displayed towards the suggestion for implementing that cesspit section of the forums
<jchance> But just for shits and giggles, lets go the jcll route and leave them in there.    In a week, someone is going to post them all over the forums when they find them.  Their argument is going to be "well they were in the forums I thought they were ok" and it's going to create drama, something this server really doesn't need.   Why would you leave them in there just to create drama with 12 year olds?
<Tharine> Just because you ignore a problem doesn't mean it ceases to be an issue
<Tolgar> Cesspit was funny on the test forum, we don't need it on the real forum
<Tolgar> we need to keep this forum as business like as the last one
<Tolgar> or we're just gonna end up with 50 pages of server drama again in less than a month
<jcll> Tolgar: We need a place for our users to blow off steam.
<Tolgar> no, no we don't
<jcll> But since people did not want that idea. I killed it.
<draykhar> Blow off steam? Isn't that what the servers are for?
<Tolgar> they can go on reddit and fap to /r/spaceclop to blow off steam :P
<forty_two> I would actually rather have no smilies than that amount of them, I hate it when I go to a forum and *everything* is flashing and waving and generally looking like it was written by a child
<forty_two> I actualy dislike the animated profile pics too for the same reason
<forty_two> actually*
<draykhar> Wouldn't mind dropping the upvote downvote system
<Tolgar> I like the additional IP lookup, minecraft account tie in things we can do with the new server, that part is fine, but we need to not change the structure of the forums completely
<forty_two> Animations and other 'flashy' stuff just makes things look stupid
<Tharine> Yeah, I enjoy being able to have a gif icon but it can get out of hand a bit fast in terms of silliness
<Tolgar> IMO, we are changing what the code of the fourms is with this new host, but we're not changing what the forums are or mean for our userbase
<jchance> It's been a while since I played with IPB, but I seem to remember it having a posting rules section with smiley flow control
<jcll> Tolgar: Yes we are. We are moving from the subreddit back to the forums.
<Tolgar> um no
<jcll> Yup
<JohnAdams1735> For some things
<Tolgar> what head admin discussion came to that?
<jcll> Tolgar: qute a bit. Been talking to the whole head team about it for a while now.
<JohnAdams1735> Anything that needs discussion and would be better handled in a forums setting will go into the forums
<JohnAdams1735> So it starts like what we have now
<Tolgar> JohnAdams1735:  you weren't here when we had to get that stuff OFF the forums in the first place I don't think
<JohnAdams1735> But it can be so much more
<JohnAdams1735> I wasn't head, but I was staff
<forty_two> Because using the forums worked so well last time... :S
<JohnAdams1735> But this is better than vanilla forumsm
<JohnAdams1735> One of the reasons, maybe, we moved?
<jcll> The old forums where broken pile of shit.
<Tolgar> sure, its a better forum software, it doesn't mean the reasons we kept things off the forums changed in anyway
<JohnAdams1735> For example, we can make polls on the new forums
<jcll> And skuld was pretty much the only one that was pushing for it.
<JohnAdams1735> Something we could never do before
<forty_two> Seriously, please keep the forums only for ban appeals and things that actually need the forum structure of discussion
<JohnAdams1735> Also the new calendar to help keep track of events
<JohnAdams1735> Any sort of event, maybe
<JohnAdams1735> From S arenas to the 10 min build challenge on C to the 5k (should there be one) on P
<JohnAdams1735> For the record, Steve, jcll, and I discussed this very extensivly beforehand
<Tolgar> well I guess i'll just be deleting threads like mad on anything that talks about a person or group of people in particular then
<JohnAdams1735> I'm sorry if it seems as if this is sudden :3
<jcll> Tolgar: You cant.
<Tolgar> what
<JohnAdams1735> What?
<jcll> Heads. Server admins and techs are the only ones with mod perms.
<Tolgar> well then fix that
<Tolgar> now
<Bestor> The old forums worked well for what we used them for :P
<jcll> Nope. That is what the heads want.
<Bestor> simple and clean
<JohnAdams1735> Not so Bestor
<JohnAdams1735> Try searching for past ban appeals? The search was shit
<JohnAdams1735> Broken
<Bestor> I agree that we should get rid of the stupid smiley emoticons and remove GIF avatars
<Bestor> JohnAdams1735: I usually used google search :P
<Tharine> You go to the player's profile -> discussions -> and append /ban-appeals/ to the end of the url. It was a bit awkward, but it worked.
<JohnAdams1735> Well, see, proof then. No longer reliant on google search
<Tharine> Why can't we have moderators moderating the forums?
<Bestor> Seems to me like we are making thins way harder than they need to be by getting a whole new set of forum software though :P
<Bestor> *shrug*
<Tolgar> excuse me while I repeat this AGAIN, changing server hosts DOES NOT MEAN you get to change EVERYTHING on the forums
<draykhar> ^^
<Tolgar> I don't care if you're the ones who implemented it
<Tharine> Honestly, in regards to not letting mods moderate, it's a huge fucking step back
<forty_two> Wait, you want to move to the forums and then not let the moderators moderate the discussion?
<jchance> I feel like the new forums is a bill in congress.  It's about saving babies (new, working forum) with a bunch of undesirable pork added (removing mod powers from mods, adding circle jerk discussion, nazi smileys and boobs)
<draykhar> Yeah, really not okay with this.
<Tolgar> yes forty_two
<Tolgar> that is their plan
<jchance> I like how mods are trusted less and less.  You guys really know how to make us feel loved and valued
<Bestor> rabblerabblerabble!
<JohnAdams1735> :(
<JohnAdams1735> Look, I'm not prepared to fight you all
<JohnAdams1735> I'm the only one right now against.... how many mods?
<jcll> We spent a LOT of time planning out the new forums. give them a chance and stop trying to stir up drama. Good night.
<forty_two> That's one of the major benefits of the reddit system, in that you have the moderators all able to moderate discussion, *and* you can see what was removed and put it back if necessary
<Tharine> Like honestly, why are mods not allowed to moderate? Some of us admins have enough work to do as it is :/
<Tolgar> its NOT DRAMA
<Tharine> Sensible reasoning =/= drama
<Tharine> Mods and server admins have had no say in these changes
<Bestor> I don't want to fight :P. I just don't quite understand the new forum stuff
<jcll> Tharine: Your tone says otherwise.
<draykhar> This isn't a fight. This is hashing out issue with it before they become bigger issues.
<Tharine> Because this is complete idiocy
<Bestor> And I appreciate all the work you guys have put into it, don't get me wrong
<Bestor> It just doesn't seem like a necessary addition to me
<JohnAdams1735> If you have issues, we can work on getting them fixed
<jchance> I'm not trying to fight.  You can address my concerns at your leisure, or don't.  I honestly don't expect a response to anything I'm typing in here because it's somewhat critical of how this is being done.
<Tolgar> I love the features we get, thats not a problem, but changing what the forums ARE and who can moderated them, IS
<JohnAdams1735> Such as being able to mod posts
<JohnAdams1735> You're looking at the ability to what? Remove posts?
<Bestor> I guess my point is that running this stuff past the mods staff (and maybe the general playerbase) would have been nice
<JohnAdams1735> I mean, tell me what modding you do now on the forums and we can see if we can replicate that on the new forums
<JohnAdams1735> It wasn't last time
<JohnAdams1735> Rememeber?
<JohnAdams1735> "We're moving to the subreddit. Done."
<JohnAdams1735> Is how I remember it
<Tolgar> it was last time, we had a HUGE discussion on moving to the subreddit
<Tolgar> for like 6 months
<Bestor> ^
<JohnAdams1735> .... in the forums?
<Tolgar> yes
<jchance> Forum moderation is not some new thing.  It's been done millions of times and I don't understand why you guys decided to reinvent the wheel.  Make a moderated posts forum. Give mods the ability to move posts to that forum.  heads can review them and remove them or restore them after they make a judgement call
<jcll> The system is setup so mods can report posts.
<jchance> that is how every large community handles forum moderation.   You guys decided to just say "mods can't really mod" instead.  It boggles the mind
<JohnAdams1735> There isn't such a place now?
<Tolgar> no one wanted to it it at first cause everyone LOVED, especially some of our staff, butting heads with the drama posters
<Tolgar> then we finally got them to get everyone to STFU on teh forums and move to reddit where we could more easily moderate bullshit
<forty_two> Ok, so we move discussion to the forum. People now want to use the ejaculating penis smiley? Sure, just moderate that post! Oh wait, only admins can do that....  Surely I'm not the only one seeing the problem here
<JohnAdams1735> Fair enough
<JohnAdams1735> And we can look into fixing that
<jcll> Tolgar: And we can moderate bullshit even more on the new forums.
<Tolgar> you can, currently I cannot
<jcll> We have 13 people that can.
<Tolgar> have fun with that
<Bestor> If we really must move to the new forums can we just disable all emoticons and gifs?
<jcll> That is more then can on the current forums. And the warning system is there to help.
<JohnAdams1735> Why? I like gifs
<Bestor> They are pointless and quite ugly
<JohnAdams1735> Can be
<JohnAdams1735> But all of them are
<JohnAdams1735> *not all
<jcll> Bestor: They make it more fun.
<Bestor> It makes me think of the 90s when I go to forums and see a bunch of ugly moving avatars all over the place
<Tolgar> JohnAdams1735: I hate to say this, but as much as you are a history buff, this whole server/reddit thing has a huge history to it
<Bestor> more fun...
<Bestor> I see.
<Tolgar> most of it negative
<jcll> Just talk to cmdrtebok about it Tolgar. It was pretty much only Skuld that wanted it.
<Tolgar> heck i'd say we got 70% more people to post on the subreddit than we ever did on the forums
<Bestor> Booting the upvote stuff would also probly be a good idea since that's the whole reason we stopped using the subreddit anyway
<JohnAdams1735> Can someone find the link to the post about moving to the subreddit?
<Tolgar> cause the forums just devolved into flame bait and bullshit
<Tolgar> I"m looking for it
<jcll> Tolgar: We'll give them warnings for that then.
<draykhar> http://nerd.nu/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/19628/new-forums
<JohnAdams1735> TO the subreddit
<draykhar> My bad.
<JohnAdams1735> :3
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<JohnAdams1735> Also, you all seemed pretty positive in this thread
<JohnAdams1735> :/
<Tolgar> we were getting new functionality and no change in the structure, we all agree the old forums were a dog
<Tolgar> then suddendly LOL EVERYTHING DIFFERENT
<Tolgar> lol
<Tharine> I think that's mostly because no one knew at that point what was in store with the new forusm
<Tharine> forums*
<JohnAdams1735> Wait what
<JohnAdams1735> I'm confused
<jchance> just for the record, I don't have any real problems with the forums.  I think reddit sucks for planning projects.  I have a problem with the way you've castrated mods, added in a bunch of inappropriate content, and act all nonchalant about it
<Tharine> Also in that you've made these decisions for the mods without consulting anyone other than head or tech admins
<Tolgar> the changes in forum structure, haven't been talked about to anyone
<jcll> jchance: If the heads want to me clean up the smileys to remove "inappropriate content" I will.
<JohnAdams1735> Well, the NSFW gifts are part of a pack, but we can look into getting it removed
<Tharine> Like, we get it, you have the final say, but we deserve some input too
<JohnAdams1735> One at time :3
<JohnAdams1735> Form structre?
<jcll> Tharine: I have been talking about this shit for weeks now. In the admin channel.
<forty_two> As someone who supported moving back to the subreddit I am somewhat biased, but I still believe that Reddit is a better discussion forum for 90%+ of the stuff within this community
<JohnAdams1735> I can't type, sorry for typoes
<Tharine> jcll: In the irc?
<jcll> yup
<Tharine> IRC is a horrible place to discuss things in the long term
<jcll> And on mumble in A&M
<Tharine> Because it's not loggable and we're not all here all the time
<Tharine> Same for mumble
<JohnAdams1735> Right
<jcll> Tharine: Yes it is.
<JohnAdams1735> Well, irc is logable
<Tharine> Yeah but have you gone and handed out those logs?
<JohnAdams1735> I do it all the time >:D
<JohnAdams1735> I would if asked
* jcll looks at the 7+ people with full logs.
<draykhar> Why don't we have staff meetings any more?
<Bestor> Here was the conversation about going back to the forums for reference http://www.reddit.com/r/mcpublic/comments/ln23k/suggestion_i_want_the_forums_back/
<draykhar> This'd solve some of this.
<Tharine> We can't ask about stuff we don't know a thing about in the first place
<JohnAdams1735> We had one like.... last fall
<jcll> You guys just seem to be throwing a tantrum.
<JohnAdams1735> And I cannot keep up :O
<Tharine> I think we have every right to be upset at a huge change in structure made without the informing nor consent of the people it was affecting
<jchance> I started this conversation lol
<JohnAdams1735> WELL
<JohnAdams1735> If the dfhudsfhku forums worked
<JohnAdams1735> I could find that post
<jcll> One thing at a time. JohnAdams1735 Want me to clean up the "inappropriate content"
<JohnAdams1735> But I'm typing here instead
<JohnAdams1735> Give me ONE MOMENT
<Bestor> jcll: calm down dude, just because we dislike the new forums doesn't mean we are "throwing a tantrum". We are just voicing our opinion on a change that we dislike or feel was too abrupt
<JohnAdams1735> To find that post
<Bestor> I think we all appreciate that you put time and effort into the new forum stuff. We just think it could have been handled differently with maybe some discussion first.
<thrawn21> Alrighty, what all would you guys suggest changing?
<thrawn21> I haven't had the time to get a proper look at the new forums to be honest :P
<jcll> Bestor: Thing is there was TONS of discussion about it.
<Bestor> jcll: link?
<Bestor> I guess I just missed it if there was
<thrawn21> well I know I saw lots in -admins, but not sure what recently I've seen outside of it
<jcll> As I said. it was in -admins and mumble.
<thrawn21> my opinion would be to launch, get feedback, then make changes
<Bestor> Well... there is what I'm complaining about then :P
<jcll> And I have been working hand in hand with the heads each step of the way.
<Tharine> +1 to Bestor's point, that's exactly what we're taking issue with
<draykhar> Transparency at its worst..
<Tharine> ^
<thrawn21> heh, I feel I've logged in to the middle of a conversation
<jcll> Lets just get rid of HAC AC and -admins then. If you guys dont trust us to do the right thing.
<thrawn21> what exactly do people not like about the new forums?
<thrawn21> jcll, that's not the issue at hand
<thrawn21> it's not that they don't trust us
<jcll>  +draykhar | Transparency at its worst..        
<thrawn21> it's that (understandably) they'd like to have some input
<draykhar> We'd like to know whats going on.
<draykhar> I'd like to see what changes are coming, and what is going to affect me,.
<Tolgar> mods cant do anything on the forums, and since we've seemed to be moving discussion back to it, thats a huge nono
<thrawn21> so what are the issues with the new forums? :)
<Bestor> Well, no way to fix that now. As far as what I feel could be improved about the new forums I think we should get rid of the emoticons we don't want people using and possibly give the moderators the ability to actually moderate things :)
<Tolgar> that was the start of the wtf thrawn21
<Tharine> Any kind of discussion we have in HAC, AC and -admins that ends up affecting moderators we open up to the moderators for discussion, or we should be at the very least.
<thrawn21> ah, did I not miss much then Tolgar?
<jchance> jcll I don't think it's that we don't trust you.  I think it's that we're more pissed off that you guys act like you want our input, then accuse us of throwing a tantrum after you did something without our input and we give you feedback
<forty_two> JohnAdams1735: These the ones you're looking for? http://nerd.nu/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6846/moving-to-rmcpublic/p1 and http://nerd.nu/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/2221/a-proposal-to-move-discussion-back-to-rmcpublic/p1
<Tolgar> forty_two: man where did you find those? haha i was looking for ages
<JohnAdams1735> yes thanks
<JohnAdams1735> Also HEY
<jchance> and honestly, your attitude is pretty fucking abrasive about the whole thing.  I feel like I'm trying to deflect an argument with a teenager when I talk to you
<JohnAdams1735> You know the topic of the channel
<JohnAdams1735> Is http://a40336.demo.invisionpower.com/ Give it a shot
<JohnAdams1735> ^
<JohnAdams1735> It's been there
<Tolgar> yah, and thats not the forum anymore
<JohnAdams1735> Should not be used
<Tolgar> https://nerd.nu/beepboop/ this is
<JohnAdams1735> *news
<Bestor> I would also like to get rid of the gifs as avatars on the new forums but I can understand that that is more my opinion than anything :P
<thrawn21> okay, so we've got emoticons that need to be looked at, what else?
<JohnAdams1735> Same setup though
<jcll> We had 2 five day demos
<thrawn21> gifs as avatars added to the list
<Tolgar> jcll, i was able to edit your poll on the test server, i am not able to edit anything on this one, you did not have the same setup
<thrawn21> someone mentioned needing more ability to moderate?
<thrawn21> like what changed?
<Tharine> Mods can only report posts
<thrawn21> but can't edit?
<Bestor> heh, thanks thrawn21. Sorry if I am coming off as a bitch, this is meant as input more than criticism.
<Tolgar> cannot edit
<Tharine> I understand that is the case, yes
<Bestor> Finals week is making me cranky :)
<Tolgar> we could edit on the test server up there on the topic
<thrawn21> haha, just trying to keep things to happy dicussion level :P
<forty_two> Tolgar: I used google >:)
<Tolgar> so there was a bit of a bait and switch going on
<Tolgar> lol forty_two
<thrawn21> okay so, adding mods need edit powers to list for discussion, what else?
<Tolgar> remove threads for one, people discussion other people and clans and what not should not come back to the fourms in anyway
<thrawn21> okay, ability to remove threads
<draykhar> Taking out the Smileys that don't abide by our rules
<Tolgar> thats what we had to go back to teh subreddit in the first place
<thrawn21> got that one
<jchance> thrawn21 cracks me up, she came in on the tail and there are 10 pages of topics above.  I'm sorry thrawn21, but good job on trying to organize it
<JohnAdams1735> So mods can edit titles in the current forums
<thrawn21> lol
<jchance> would you like me to send you a log thrawn21?
<JohnAdams1735> What else can you edit?
<thrawn21> I'd love that :)
<Bestor> What is our goal with the forums? If it is just to handle ban appeals and discuss server issues I would argue that we should get rid of the off-topic discussion board and direct all of that to the subreddit
<thrawn21> well somethings are nicer on a forum
* JohnAdams1735 waves my arms
<JohnAdams1735> Hello
<thrawn21> like for example, my feedback trhead
<JohnAdams1735> What else can you edit?
<jchance> damn, lost some to the buffer thrawn21 I'll send you what I have.
<thrawn21> hehe, this is why I have my buffer set at some ungodly amount :P
<JohnAdams1735> So I was right
<thrawn21> but any mod here having a look at what they can edit to tell john?
<jchance> http://pastebin.com/Jjda97EM
<JohnAdams1735> Discussion over moving to the subreddit was in irc and here: http://nerd.nu/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/2221/a-proposal-to-move-discussion-back-to-rmcpublic/p1
<JohnAdams1735> Posts only from May 2011
<JohnAdams1735> Then this was dropped on the staff: http://nerd.nu/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6846/moving-to-rmcpublic/p1
<thrawn21> thanks jchance (and just for the future, pastethezomg is a better paste place) :)
<jchance> I refuse to use anything with zomg in it
<forty_two> JohnAdams1735: Restricted access works (mostly) on the current forums because the discussion topics are deliberately limited (Also largely because we wanted to restrict access to IPs). It won't end up working if you move general discussion to the forums due to the added volume of people and posts
<thrawn21> haha, why's that?
<jchance> mostly out of self respect
<JohnAdams1735> Doesn't make it right, but it shows that when we moved to the subreddit with little to no warning for the staff
<thrawn21> but it's a paste place we have control over :P
<Tolgar> um no, we talked about it for like 6 months
<forty_two> I presume the new forum software allows more granularity in user permissions?
<JohnAdams1735> Where?
<Tolgar> pretty much every drama thread
<thrawn21> well the issue as I see it right now is not what happened before, but what's going on now
<Tolgar> irc, mumble, in game
<thrawn21> and how we can fix it :)
<Tolgar> it was a huge issue at the time
<Tolgar> cause the forums were a clusterfuck of bile
<thrawn21> and what do you mean by granularity forty_two?
<jchance> thrawn21 why would I want to post chat logs of a discussion about this place in a paste place that this place has control over it
<JohnAdams1735> Alright
<JohnAdams1735> It was sudden news to me back in October 2011
<forty_two> I mean allowing the mods to moderate without seeing IP addresses, which was one of the major reasons mods don't get the permissions on the current setup
<thrawn21> so if things got tits up, we can delete it :P
<Tolgar> yah we were talking about it back in March or so lol
<thrawn21> go*
<thrawn21> ah, gotcha
<jchance> Don't do anything tits without a nsfw tag
<thrawn21> so I'll ad that to the list forty_two, thanks
<Tolgar> forty_two: wait this forum does that?
<JohnAdams1735> OK, the NSFW emotes are gone
<JohnAdams1735> Remved alltoeghter
<thrawn21> cool, that's one issue off the list
<forty_two> I don't know about the new forum, I've no experience with it
<JohnAdams1735> And sorry for typoes
<Tolgar> oh
<JohnAdams1735> It's 1am
<JohnAdams1735> Read the channel topic :3
<JohnAdams1735> We've been testing the forums for a few weeks now
<thrawn21> poor john, you should sleep earlier
<JohnAdams1735> We had to recreate new trials
<thrawn21> I swear all you east-coasters are crazy people ;P
<JohnAdams1735> But they are otherwise the same
<JohnAdams1735> No one said a WORD about them emotes until now
<JohnAdams1735> :/
<thrawn21> well I'd meant to in all honesty
<Tolgar> I had assumed the cesspit thign was a huge joke that was going away at the end of the trial
<thrawn21> I just had figured that they weren't gonna make it to the final product
<JohnAdams1735> .... Assumptions
<JohnAdams1735> Make asses
<JohnAdams1735> of you and me
<JohnAdams1735> :p
<Tolgar> dat ass
<thrawn21> my fault, sorry :(
<JohnAdams1735> ASSES
<jchance> dem asses
<JohnAdams1735> But OK
<forty_two> Also, is it possible to remove posts without sending them directly into the great wastebin in the sky? Maybe something to hide a post from anyone but mods? That's one of the things that make Reddit moderation much easier than on the current forums
<Tolgar> also we had better moderater perms on the test server
<thrawn21> added
<JohnAdams1735> I would like that
<Tolgar> vs none
<jchance> forty_two the way most forums do that is a moderated posts forum
<jchance> mods get permission to move posts to that forum, not delete
<jchance> then a head can look, make a judgement, and delete or restore the post
<thrawn21> that sounds nice to me
<forty_two> Yeah, that could work
<jchance> or just leave them for future reference if a member becomes a problem
<Tolgar> and then its mostly a hidden section like modchat private?
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<jchance> Exactly tolgar
<Tolgar> yah that works
<thrawn21> :)
<jchance> removes it from the public view, admins or whatever can always go back in and restore a post if it was removed without reason
<JohnAdams1735> I think that's how it works allready
<thrawn21> yeah, better than outright deletion
<JohnAdams1735> You can report; admin can remove or not
<Tolgar> that gives mods the ability to nix threads like the "shut down S" thing we had earlier
<jchance> Right, but reporting doesn't get the post full of dicks off the server chat forum
<Tolgar> report doesn't prevent further posting though
<JohnAdams1735> It will be visible to staff who have perms in the section
<JohnAdams1735> Well, we can ban people from the forums still >_>
<Tolgar> we dont need to ban we just need to remove the discussion
<Tolgar> like on reddit
<JohnAdams1735> And it also will be linked to their MC account
<jcll> Tolgar: That is what the warning system is for
<JohnAdams1735> Like 100% authed against real MC info
<JohnAdams1735> Like bouncer
<thrawn21> I still like the idea of being able to remove things, like on reddit
<thrawn21> as long as we don't overuse it
<Tolgar> its like telling people to stfu when they go LOL LIBTARDS & JEWS on the server
<thrawn21> as there are times when an admin is not around
<Tharine> We should let mods warn /and/ remove the discussion from public view
<JohnAdams1735> Warnings spit out a notification to admins
<jcll> *reports
<thrawn21> true, but as hard as we try, we're not on 24/7 ;)
* thrawn21 imagines a Clockwork Orange of me and my laptop screen :P
<Tharine> Yeah like no offence, but have you seen how much work I have to do for survival already? I don't want extra forum moderation on top of that
<Tharine> Let the mods take that off our hands
<Tolgar> and S is where most of the moderation will come from again :P
<jcll> Tharine: Then dont. I am sure others will help. There are 13 of us
<Tolgar> you need 50 not 13
<Tolgar> you forget why we have such a huge mod base in the first place
<Bestor> If mods can remove posts from the subreddit there is no real reason they shouldn't from the forum.
<thrawn21> well let's weigh the ups and downs of each side
<Tolgar> ^
<jchance> I feel like the subreddit thing is the next to go
<thrawn21> ups for mods not removing:
* TheAcademician has quit (Quit: For I Have Tasted The Fruit)
<thrawn21> less abuse accusations
<thrawn21> or at least they'd just be targeted at admins
<thrawn21> what else?
<Tolgar> also you will just inspire the next toastthemost to notice the structure and then go all "Heavy handed forum moderation from a select few who we do not choose to give them this power, etc etc etc"
<Bestor> lol, Tolgar
<thrawn21> well that's a down :P
<thrawn21> sorry, just trying to have a clear discussion :P
<Bestor> yeah, not much we can do about toaststhemosts anyway
<Tolgar> seriously we've had 4 page forum posts on that topic
<Tolgar> lol
<thrawn21> okay then, downsides?
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<thrawn21> got one mentioned
<Bestor> Admins aren't always around
<Bestor> would be the obvious one
<thrawn21> also can add longer time of rule breaking stuff seen
<jchance> It consolidates more power in the lucky 13.  I'm sure thats a benefit to someone and a negative to 90% of the rest
<thrawn21> yeah
<Tolgar> i think the point is, you dont NEED to limit moderation of this thing, we have more than enough people that are able and willing to foot the work, and are already trusted with it
<JohnAdams1735> Technically, the way the forums are set up, we do
<thrawn21> jchance, I'd like to think that you guys don't think we're power hungry :(
<JohnAdams1735> We're brainstormign ways to make concessions
<JohnAdams1735> but some of this will be "How the forums are."
<JohnAdams1735> By the way
<JohnAdams1735> We paid for this already :3
<Tolgar> well there always, we don't use it, until we can
* Tolgar shrugs
<jchance> I think you're woefully out of touch with what moderators think thrawn, right or wrong
<Tolgar> and people pay for a year of WoW and use 4 months of it :P
<Bestor> JohnAdams1735: thats why I wanted discussion. We all understand that there is no going back on this now
<thrawn21> well yes John, I don't think the discussion is not using the forums, the question is how
<JohnAdams1735> Fair enough
<Bestor> yup, no use dwelling on what we can't change now
<thrawn21> and jchance, I'd love for you to show me
<Bestor> jchance: Not sure where you are getting that idea from but I have never heard an accusations of the admin's being power hungry from anyone other than barney :P
<Tolgar> ha
<thrawn21> heh
<forty_two> JohnAdams1735: The new forum software is a definite advancement, I just think we don't need to change the purpose of the forums while we're at it
<Tolgar> ^
<Tolgar> that was advertised no where in this whole thing tbh
<Tharine> Yeah, I don't think anyone has any real issues with the forum software, just how we're allowed to use it
<JohnAdams1735> It was in the trials
<JohnAdams1735> All the subcatagories?
<Tolgar> this is something that takes a month or two to hash out
<Tolgar> not a week
<JohnAdams1735> Why?
<JohnAdams1735> The forums are broken
<JohnAdams1735> Have been for ever
<JohnAdams1735> Need to fix
<Tolgar> because not everyone knows or remembers why we did what we did
<JohnAdams1735> Fixed
<thrawn21> okay, so we've got several additions to what we want for changes to mod perms
<Tolgar> sure, move the forums to this new thing
<Bestor> Okay I'm heading to bed. Thanks for listening to my QQing for the past 30 minutes. g'night!
<Tolgar> great
<Tolgar> dont change anything else
* Bestor is now known as BestSleep
<thrawn21> night bestor
<Tolgar> that was the impression i think everyone else came away with
<JohnAdams1735> But there is so much more they can do
<JohnAdams1735> Why limit it to the old way?
<Tolgar> and there are many reasons we dont
<Tolgar> many
<jcll> Tolgar jchance Tharine forty_two. We are going to be using the new forums the way we planed to.
<JohnAdams1735> We may have just kept the old software then
<Tolgar> says you
<Tharine> So we get no say at all?
<JohnAdams1735> Look, obviosuly we need to work this out
<jcll> The time for that has past.
<thrawn21> jcll, please don't say that
<Tolgar> you aren't the only tech admin
<thrawn21> no, we've got time now
<Tolgar> fyi
<thrawn21> at least I do
<JohnAdams1735> But the other techs have signed off on it
<thrawn21> I can work with everybody and figure out exactly what we all want
<jchance> jcll you are really good at just saying shit to piss people off
<draykhar> Yeah
<jchance> Like, I'm almost impressed now
<thrawn21> and then help sort out the best of compromises :)
<JohnAdams1735> No need to get rude jchance
<jcll> jchance: Thanks man <3
<Tharine> I didn't realise the tech admins had the final say on things, despite all of this feedback.
<JohnAdams1735> Can we please keep this civil
<Tharine> We're civil
<thrawn21> guys, please don't take jabs at each other
<JohnAdams1735> Techs and heads
<thrawn21> we're all staff together
<Tharine> But you've just taken all of our input and gone 'no because we don't want it that way'
<JohnAdams1735> Steve and I have been on this ride the whole time as well
<JohnAdams1735> No
<JohnAdams1735> We can't do it the way the permissions groups are set up
<Tolgar> and thats 2 of the 5 head admins
<JohnAdams1735> 4
<Tolgar> 4 now?
<JohnAdams1735> FOur heads
<Tharine> We have 3 head admins, according to nerd.nu/staff
<JohnAdams1735> One of whome is a few days old :3
<thrawn21> luke stepped down
<thrawn21> heh
<Tolgar> dammit luke lol
<jchance> Like, I thought maybe he just didn't know how him being dismissive of everyone in the midst of a conversation that everyone was evidently passionate about would piss everyone off
<thrawn21> yeah, there's not been a post yet
<thrawn21> so not technically official yet :P
<JohnAdams1735> Me, Steve, Lude, Thrawn. Threee of us who approved, one who is new
<jchance> but I think he does know and enjoys it.
<Tolgar> luke definitely knows about why the forums were crap lol
<draykhar> I'm not okay with this. Expect to not see me on the new forums.
<JohnAdams1735> jcll is dismissive because
<thrawn21> draykhar, I'm sorry, would you please stay and talk?
<Tharine> We've tried thrawn
<JohnAdams1735> he's put days' worth of work into this
<Tharine> I'm sorry but we just tried that
<thrawn21> I'm sorry I came late to the converstaion, but I'm still willing to listen
<Tolgar> ok so the point I think I'm trying to make is, we have a lot of new staff, and a lot of newer admins, they either were not here or do not remember the reasons the way things are, are the way things are
<Tharine> No one is unappreciative of the amount of work put into this
<JohnAdams1735> He went through 300 empotes to get rid of the NSFW ones for you
<draykhar> I've spoke my piece and so to has everyone else. I'll continue to moderate the servers and Mumble, but I'll take no part in the forums.
<JohnAdams1735> Then you cannot do ban appeals
<Tharine> I'm honestly not sure i'm comfortable moderating here at all if our views don't matter
<JohnAdams1735> And really? We're trying to work this out dray
<draykhar> That sucks.
<draykhar> You're not
<draykhar> you're being dismissive
<JohnAdams1735> Yes, I am
<JohnAdams1735> Well, I'm sorry, it's 1:30am
<JohnAdams1735> So I am talkign with jc
<JohnAdams1735> In mumble
<JohnAdams1735> right now
<thrawn21> okay, please lets just keep this to the issues
<JohnAdams1735> asking over and over
<JohnAdams1735> how
<thrawn21> I've got a list I can repeat back here
<JohnAdams1735> how to get you to  have perms
<JohnAdams1735> the perms you want
<JohnAdams1735> How is that dosumissiv
<JohnAdams1735> ???
<draykhar> If it doesn't happen, whatever. I'm just not going to take part in it.
<Tharine> But we've opened up a whole greater issue here in the fact that our concerns aren't being considered: jcll> Tolgar jchance Tharine forty_two. We are going to be using the new forums the way we planed to.
<forty_two> ^
<JohnAdams1735> At least be open to us working this out draykhar
<Tolgar> the issue is, we can move to this new server, have all the new goodies of detecting IPs and all that, and not change anything at all else, until we work out the rest and have proper discussions on it
<JohnAdams1735> Plesae
<JohnAdams1735> *please
<Tharine> John, I don't mean to offend you, but we just spent the last hour trying to work it out
<JohnAdams1735> I know I
<JohnAdams1735> was here
<draykhar> I had been, right up until jcll 'noped' everything that was said
<JohnAdams1735> But
<thrawn21> John if you're tired, I can keep talking
<JohnAdams1735> It's not going to resolve itself
<JohnAdams1735> At 1:30am EST
<jcll> thrawn21: Mind getting into mumble with us?
<JohnAdams1735> jc and I are in EST
<Tharine> So because we can't solve it now
<thrawn21> yeah, take a break and get some sleep :)
<Tharine> <jcll> Tolgar jchance Tharine forty_two. We are going to be using the new forums the way we planed to.
<JohnAdams1735> YESThat would help
<Tharine> Is true
<JohnAdams1735> I can;t type
<thrawn21> I see that :(
<Tolgar> Tharine: no it doesn't have to be
<Tolgar> no one is seeing that
<Tharine> Right?
<Tharine> Like, yeah let's save it for another day if you need to
<thrawn21> I'm still awake, and can talk
<Tharine> Don't shut it down completely
<thrawn21> and jcll, I'll hop on
<thrawn21> (though typing and talkign gets hard for me :P)
<Tolgar> yah im in there too i just didnt feel like typing and talking either