gistfile1.weechatlog

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[15:35] <computercolin> paulproteus: aha, I'm in the wrong tab
[15:35] <computercolin> how was your Penn trip?
[15:35] <computercolin> still alive
[15:36] <paulproteus> computercolin: (-:
[15:36] <paulproteus> still alive
[15:37] <computercolin> eyelids stay up?
[15:38] <computercolin> Endow me in great knowledge about educating people about open-source
[15:38] <paulproteus> computercolin: I need 3 min, sorry to delay
[15:38] <computercolin> cool
[15:44] <paulproteus> computercolin: So, hey there.
[15:44] <computercolin> hey
[15:45] <paulproteus> So the Saturday event went really well.
[15:45] <paulproteus> Here is some brain dumping from me, and then we can figure out what in my brain can apply to you.
[15:45] <computercolin> luch is always good
[15:45] <computercolin> shoot
[15:45] <paulproteus> In my life, I always end up trying things a few times, and failing the first few, and finally when I try it again a while later it makes sense.
[15:45] <paulproteus> I think what I really wanted to give these students is that "first time" when things don't quite make sense.
[15:46] <computercolin> what was their level of OSS involvement / exposure?
[15:46] <paulproteus> And for that reason, doing a class like this the weekend *before* your "do something useful" event seems hypothetically nice, though I don't know if it's possible this time around.
[15:46] <paulproteus> Some had used Linux a little bit maybe.
[15:46] <paulproteus> Many were quite excited by the talk we gave in the middle about licensing and the ethics of software freedom.
[15:46] <computercolin> neat
[15:47] <computercolin> They then had trouble on the organization of OSS groups, technicalities?
[15:47] <computercolin> Or you just totally confused them
[15:47] <paulproteus> Heh, no!
[15:47] <paulproteus> So we had four one-hour sessions.
[15:48] <paulproteus> stump and I gave one, and I can talk about that in the greatest degree of precision.
[15:48] <paulproteus> We did it four times -- the students rotate between teachers.
[15:48] <computercolin> Ahh, I see
[15:48] <paulproteus> Generally they liked the excitement and diversity of rotating between teachers.
[15:48] <computercolin> Yeah, gotta move the blood and keep things interesting
[15:48] <computercolin> You and stump had which topics?
[15:48] <paulproteus> For us, once the *teachers* really figured out what we wanted to teach, we could do the "lecture" portion in 15-20 minutes, leaving lots of time for playing with things yourself and one on one tutoring.
[15:48] [Whois] stump is ~quassel@rose.makesad.us (John Stumpo)
[15:48] [Whois] stump is a user on channels: #openhatch
[15:48] [Whois] stump is online via kornbluth.freenode.net (Frankfurt, Germany).
[15:48] [Whois] stump has been idle for 2 days, 0 hours, 55 minutes, and 41 seconds.
[15:48] [Whois] stump has been online since 2010-09-16 13:25:12.
[15:48] [Whois] stump is logged in as stump.
[15:48] [Whois] End of WHOIS list.
[15:49] <paulproteus> Let me find you our etherpad
[15:49] * computercolin similes
[15:49] <paulproteus> http://openetherpad.org/session-2
[15:49] <computercolin> You made that in your session?
[15:50] <paulproteus> Yeah, we iteratively developed it, and by the 3rd and 4th groups we stabilized on that content.
[15:50] <computercolin> Those poor first few groups
[15:50] <paulproteus> We had four different sessions -- more info at http://asheesh.org/scratch/Penn_open_source_hackathon
[15:50] <computercolin> ahh, I was looking for stuff on the events, penn.oh didn't have too much
[15:51] <paulproteus> If you have ca. 1-2h later this week when I'm a little less rushed, maybe you can help me figure out what parts of the event are interesting to publicize, share, and talk about.
[15:51] <computercolin> What were the attendees primary motivation?
[15:51] <paulproteus> (This conversation itself is giving me a sense of that, but I'll probably have to cut it short.)
[15:51] <computercolin> yeah, should have some time somewhere
[15:52] <computercolin> Its going to be interesting to see what parts of OSS get people excited, whether they came for the FF hacking, or the "legals of OSS"
[15:52] <paulproteus> Primary motivation...
[15:52] <paulproteus> I could read the emails of people answering why they wanted to come, one sec.
[15:53] <computercolin> Its interesting, actually had an econ post-grad at Harvard respond to some of our invites. I think I'm going to ask her to come.
[15:53] <computercolin> She has no interest in hacking
[15:54] <computercolin> For other confused ppl in this channel, I'm working on a Hackathon at Olin College (outside Boston): http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Etherpad_FAD
[15:54] <computercolin> Want to make it awesome and accepting of new osser
[15:55] <paulproteus> computercolin: Run the teaching day the day before.
[15:55] <paulproteus> It took someone 2 hours to get Firefox to build.
[15:55] <computercolin> Sounds good, majority of hacking is on Sat, Fri is training
[15:55] <computercolin> Yeah, that doesn't sound surprising
[15:55] <paulproteus> Nice, jefferai is going!
[15:56] <computercolin> Yup, he's giving a talk
[15:56] <paulproteus> Friday needs more teaching time.
[15:56] <computercolin> Hmm, okay, we could expand that
[15:56] <paulproteus> We didn't have great attendance on the projects day part, like 15 people across the day.
[15:56] <paulproteus> But we had a MASSIVELY PACKED day on the teaching day.
[15:56] <paulproteus> 20 slots, 51 applicants. We made it size 30 to accommodate.
[15:56] <computercolin> How about having more teaching on the 2nd day, so you hook people into hacking
[15:56] <computercolin> Good ol' bait and switch
[15:57] <paulproteus> If you read http://penn.openhatch.org/ you'll see it's excited about the learning and the idea that we're offering you a unique experience.
[15:57] <computercolin> Do you think having people apply and commit was a good move?
[15:57] <paulproteus> computercolin: I *wish* I could be there at your event, but I'll be in Rochester.
[15:57] <paulproteus> Heck yes.
[15:57] * computercolin wishes the same
[15:57] <computercolin> Okay, we can still do that
[15:58] <paulproteus> But the thing is, "applying" is so easy for our event.
[15:58] <paulproteus> It's not really "applying", just committing.
[15:58] <computercolin> People at Olin have a cross of commitment fear and tendency to be impromptu, tricky
[15:58] <paulproteus> I think Penn people do too, in theory.
[15:59] <paulproteus> If you make it seem exclusive, everything changes.
[15:59] <computercolin> Yeah, the commitment will probably help
[15:59] <paulproteus> Exclusive *yet* welcoming! (-:
[15:59] <paulproteus> That's how we got 35% women, which I think is a better ratio the Penn CS.
[15:59] <computercolin> And hey, can always email people the day of and say "hey, 10 spots, just come!"
[15:59] <paulproteus> ?
[15:59] <computercolin> Olin has 50:50 M:F !
[15:59] <paulproteus> Good, then I want to see your event do the same.
[16:00] <computercolin> A lot of good events had no prior advertisign, just "XYZ NOW, come join us"
[16:00] * computercolin laughes, thats more tricky =P
[16:00] <computercolin> Oliners have mailing lists that funnel into their brains =P
[16:00] <paulproteus> The "FAD" thing is so painfully bogus.
[16:00] <paulproteus> Can you at least write it out as Activity Day?
[16:00] <computercolin> Okay, longer training, training on Sat, and welcoming commitment
[16:00] <paulproteus> "I'm new to FADs"?
[16:00] <computercolin> got it
[16:01] <paulproteus> What the heck can that even mean?
[16:01] <computercolin> no silly bands
[16:01] <computercolin> do you not wear silly bands paulproteus ?
[16:01] * computercolin makes note of writing out FAD
[16:02] <paulproteus> Every time you don't, I will mock you roundly.
[16:02] * computercolin hearts wikipedia, has article on SB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_Bandz
[16:03] <computercolin> they need more sociological analysis
[16:03] <paulproteus> I hope you don't mind me being unusually harsh with you.
[16:03] <computercolin> on topic, yes, okay, will spell out
[16:03] <paulproteus> I'll make it up by being extraordinarily nice in person sometime.
[16:03] <computercolin> I Really like how you write "hacking is a good thing," its a huge point
[16:03] <computercolin> tear away
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[16:04] <paulproteus> Some student said she was distracted/bothered by our use of "hacking" everywhere, so I'm not sure it's worth fighting that fight.
[16:04] * paulproteus reviews your sched some more
[16:04] <paulproteus> 1.5h lunch is good.
[16:04] <paulproteus> That it's a buffet is also really really good.
[16:04] <paulproteus> Make sure to break up into small tables.
[16:05] <paulproteus> Are your goals really that people who haven't done open source before will hack on Etherpad?
[16:05] <paulproteus> Are there at least easy bugs?
[16:05] <paulproteus> Do you have a "Here's how to compile it" guide?
[16:05] <paulproteus> And what about the Windows users?
[16:05] <computercolin> Cool, will, try and distribute students and OSS longtimers
[16:05] <computercolin> windows users are an issue
[16:05] <computercolin> Basically won't run
[16:05] <paulproteus> One answer is you talk them through setting up Fedora (for example).
[16:06] <paulproteus> But you have to allocate time+people to that.
[16:06] <computercolin> Yup.
[16:06] <computercolin> I was tyring ot think of ways to do VMs
[16:06] <computercolin> Problem is EP is a huge ram monger
[16:06] <paulproteus> Do you have a bug tracker and bitesize bugs, and a "Compilation HOWTO"?
[16:06] <paulproteus> I think the Etherpad focus might be a big loser for the event, but what sort of event size do you use to define success?
[16:07] <computercolin> I'm going to say 60% of attendees will have linux to use on the laptop, but still, diferent mix, complications
[16:07] <computercolin> Hmm, its a fair point about EP
[16:07] <paulproteus> Do they even know about EP?
[16:07] <computercolin> Could have people play with JS
[16:07] <paulproteus> Maybe Tuesday you can have an EP "dude, this thing is cool, come use it" night.
[16:07] <computercolin> Olin and EP are BFFs
[16:07] <paulproteus> Preferably forcing them to run into all the bugs.
[16:07] <paulproteus> Oh, that's good then.
[16:07] <paulproteus> How'd that happen? re: olin + EP
[16:08] <computercolin> Somone used it for a student gov thing, emailed it to a list, everyone was like "shit, this is cool!"
[16:08] <computercolin> That an 3/4 of our classes are "work with your students in x realm of awesome"
[16:08] <paulproteus> You're going to have to "waste" the best people, having them walk around and provide one-on-one tutoring all the time, so you will have limited progress.
[16:08] <paulproteus> Okay, so that's good at least (-:
[16:09] <computercolin> Yeah, there are going to be 2 camps, the Fedora ppl, and the noobs
[16:09] <computercolin> And a few in between, but nto much
[16:09] <paulproteus> Are you going to have the Fedora people spend time teaching?
[16:09] <paulproteus> Or are they going to quietly hack in the corner and make everyone else embarrassed?
[16:09] <computercolin> Jefferia will be great because he says he's not qualified to do EP, doesn't want to
[16:09] <paulproteus> Yes, that is good at least.
[16:09] <computercolin> not sure, one idea
[16:09] <computercolin> I would like to pair people off
[16:10] <paulproteus> Right, I saw that.
[16:10] <paulproteus> I waffle on that.
[16:10] <paulproteus> I think it's intimidating.
[16:10] <computercolin> Done right, I think the "noobs" won't delay the Fedora people, and will pick up a lot
[16:10] <computercolin> yeah, could be intimidating, but thats why we do the pairing
[16:10] <paulproteus> Can you maybe get a n00b and try pairing that person with you for 1-2h in, like, the next 10 days, to see how it feels?
[16:10] <paulproteus> So long as the smart person is really good at being a teacher and being patient that's fine.
[16:11] <computercolin> i like that, then if the pairing was no good, not forced to stay together
[16:11] <paulproteus> Is that true for them? I don't know all the people involved.
[16:11] <computercolin> I think the Fedora people will be good teachers
[16:11] <paulproteus> Okay, good.
[16:11] <computercolin> Spot is amazing, dunno about JOn
[16:11] <computercolin> Sdz will be great
[16:12] <computercolin> DJ, dunno
[16:12] <paulproteus> The nerdier they are, the worse teachers they are (usually), just keep that in mind.
[16:12] <computercolin> I actually think OS and stupid logistics will be more of an issue
[16:12] * computercolin lols
[16:12] <computercolin> may have just proved your point
[16:13] <computercolin> I like this, okay, we're creating a social framework that doesn't intimidate people, helps them learn, and might get some work on EP done
[16:13] <computercolin> Andy Pethan was really excited about modifying EtherPad to do other things
[16:14] <paulproteus> Many people are going to have questions they're too embarrassed to ask their pairs.
[16:14] <computercolin> He's a senior. I'm thinking of asking him to lead a group to do something interesting, probably modifying front end JS
[16:14] <paulproteus> One way to address that is to use the Pomodoro Technique with the pairing, where people work for 25 min at a time, then take a 5 min break; repeat.
[16:14] <paulproteus> That way, during the break, you have time to meta-communicate or just be friendly with each other.
[16:14] * computercolin makes note of pomodoro
[16:14] <paulproteus> I capitalized it so that you know to Google it and read the book on its website.
[16:15] <computercolin> wikipedia!
[16:15] <computercolin> Hmm, with the pairing, I wonder when that should happen
[16:16] <computercolin> I think a lot of the initial time (Friday) will be figuring out "okay, what packaging / cleanup tasks are we doing"
[16:16] <computercolin> SOme people will be really good about explaining what is wrong, the decisoions they're mulling over
[16:16] <computercolin> Its very high-level planning
[16:16] <computercolin> But Sat they will have more specific tasks and be better able to assign jobs to a mentee
[16:17] *** mchua is now known as mchua_afk.
[16:17] <computercolin> the melster was hidiong
[16:17] <computercolin> s/hid.../hiding
[16:18] <paulproteus> You should know that before the event.
[16:18] <computercolin> the specific tasks?
[16:18] <paulproteus> At least, you should have some bitesize-y tasks ready before the event.
[16:19] <paulproteus> And if that's not possible, don't waste the n00bs' time with that conversation; have them be learning open source in general.
[16:19] <computercolin> Interesting, but engineers like looking at engring problems, which I think the cleanup of EP is
[16:19] <computercolin> Yeah, pre-fad this sat should help produce those tasks
[16:20] <paulproteus> Oh, that's a good point. We were biased toward freshmen and sophomores with "some" programming experience.
[16:20] <paulproteus> What's your average "n00b" look like?
[16:20] <computercolin> I wonder though, how you get people most interested. I mean, we don't just want them to do OSS because they committed and we have work for them to do, we wan them to find it cool and fulfilling to work on
[16:20] <paulproteus> Of course!
[16:20] <paulproteus> The fulfilling part is *hard*.
[16:20] <computercolin> Have had basic software class with python, know about OOP, recursion
[16:21] <computercolin> Your totally right, we should have tasks for them to do, but such that they can do ones they find fulfilling
[16:21] <computercolin> Or they can fix bugs should they want to dig in the codebase
[16:21] <paulproteus> I hope I've been more than just meaninglessly argumentative this afternoon. :P
[16:21] <computercolin> Or if they don't want to work with andy on an EP that highlights Tex syntax
[16:22] * computercolin thinks I missed the yelling part
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[16:22] <paulproteus> I believe Any will not finish that and that he won't be able to figure out how to make that collaborative.
[16:22] <paulproteus> And that the former is totally okay.
[16:22] <computercolin> yeah, probably so
[16:22] <paulproteus> If I'm wrong about the former, great!
[16:22] <paulproteus> But there's an even lower chance he knows how to run an effective group project.
[16:23] <paulproteus> Maybe if you plan the group parts of that before Saturday starts.
[16:23] <computercolin> You, sir, need to meet Andy ;]
[16:23] <paulproteus> Okay, fair enough (-:
[16:23] <computercolin> Wait, so was that a big problem with teaching, organizing people effectively?
[16:23] <computercolin> s/,/:/g
[16:24] <computercolin> Did people work on groups as they hacked away at FF?
[16:24] <paulproteus> On Fx the tutorial we used linked to an hg revision that was busted and didn't compile.
[16:25] <paulproteus> It's okay, one of the students was sharp and we got him to find a revision that did compile!
[16:25] <computercolin> yup, but did particpants organize to do something in do something larger w/ FF?
[16:25] <paulproteus> No, we didn't get that far for Fx on the projects day.
[16:25] <paulproteus> In 5 min I really should go, I'm afraid.
[16:25] <computercolin> I have a funny story about a friend and FF compilation
[16:26] <computercolin> which I will save for later ;)
[16:26] <paulproteus> For projects day, we had one group of 2 poking at Fx, and one group of 2 poking at Sugar.
[16:26] <computercolin> You think they knew ea. other beforehand?
[16:26] <paulproteus> I think so.
[16:26] <computercolin> Maybe thats what we should focus on, building groups that teach, learn, and find the value in OSS
[16:27] <paulproteus> Different things will create revelations for different people.
[16:27] <computercolin> In terms of value?
[16:27] <paulproteus> Your goal is to give each person a radical life-changing revelation.
[16:27] <paulproteus> At least, mine is. :P
[16:27] * computercolin wonders if he is qualified for this job
[16:27] <paulproteus> Well, not quite, okay.
[16:27] <computercolin> church of emacs!
[16:27] <paulproteus> If we had had more time to evolve the curriculum for our (30, 30) (learning, doing) pairs, I would have liked to offer more choices to students.
[16:28] <computercolin> its always trick pairing people, need larger numbers to find good interest groups
[16:28] * computercolin admits he's a vim person
[16:28] <paulproteus> We had a few different exercises in our OpenEtherPad as you can see. I wished we could have given them out on paper and asked people to choose the exercises that really motivated them.
[16:28] * paulproteus doesn't know why you mention vim
[16:29] <computercolin> I'm making note of these wishes, keep going
[16:29] <computercolin> vim was a totally random tangent
[16:29] <paulproteus> We should have practiced the (teaching + exercises) thing a few days before, so we could hone the curriculum and figure out what was possible, rather than using students as crash test dummies.
[16:30] <paulproteus> I think there exists a totally honed version of the curriculum we took people through that has 4 hours of (30, 30) (learning, exercises) pairs that completely rocks.
[16:30] <paulproteus> Whatever you want to do, practice it.
[16:30] <paulproteus> Honestly, whatever you want to do, if you have a full practice run, it'll be 50% better (or more) the real time.
[16:31] <computercolin> OKay, will try and run Kevin and others through their lessons before Hackathon
[16:31] <paulproteus> The way you're running it, with "picking things to do on Friday" then "hack on them on Saturday" makes that impossible, and that terrifies me.
[16:31] <computercolin> ???
[16:31] <computercolin> People won't konw what to pick without knowledge?
[16:31] <computercolin> Or won't come back?
[16:32] <-- finnapz has left this server (Quit: Leaving.).
[16:32] <paulproteus> Let me ask questions rather than assume, since I'm not quite sure what you mean.
[16:32] <paulproteus> Friday and Sat are the two days of the event?
[16:32] <computercolin> ypu
[16:32] <paulproteus> Before Friday, will you have ca. 10 bitesize bugs already labeled in the tracker?
[16:32] <computercolin> certainly
[16:32] <paulproteus> Before Friday, will you already have at least one patch that's review-needed?
[16:32] <computercolin> probably not
[16:33] <paulproteus> But I guess "patch with review-needed status" isn't something that you are going to teach, so that's okay.
[16:33] <computercolin> well, Sdz has a couple of patches, but not done the right way
[16:33] <paulproteus> What sort of "not the right way"?
[16:33] <computercolin> They're hacks
[16:33] <paulproteus> Teaching a session on "How to critique patches: Why Sebastian's work should be dropped on the floor" would be fantastic.
[16:33] <computercolin> Okay, that could be fun
[16:34] <paulproteus> People asked me when I showed a Firefox patch review process, "Why didn't the committer just put this in?"
[16:34] <paulproteus> How many attendees will you have?
[16:34] <paulproteus> The nice thing about small # of attendees (and/or registration) is you can plan a high teacher-student ratio.
[16:34] <computercolin> Probably 20 oliners + outside folk
[16:34] <paulproteus> Also people sign up to events (e.g. on Facebook) and then 10% of those people actually come.
[16:35] <computercolin> Did you overbook on purpose?
[16:35] <paulproteus> For our Saturday event, we had ca. 100% attendance. For Sunday we had like 20%.
[16:35] <paulproteus> Sat we did no overbooking. Sun we allocated enough space for all theoretical attendees.
[16:35] <computercolin> Okay, I'm confused by the (30,30) stuff
[16:35] <computercolin> That is number of people, number of exercises / learning?
[16:35] <computercolin> who / what were paired?
[16:36] <paulproteus> We had four "modules" (topics), each with approximately 1 teacher. The perfect module is structured as 30 min teaching/discussion, followed by 30 min of people playing with exercises on their own computer and getting one-on-one help from a roaming instructor.
[16:37] <computercolin> Ahh, the unit are minutes
[16:37] <paulproteus> ya
[16:37] <computercolin> gotcha
[16:37] <paulproteus> "approximately 1 teacher" means 3 of the modules had exactly 1 teacher, then stump's and mine had two teachers, though I ended up doing most of the "lecture" but stump did a lot of the one-on-one question answering and fine-tuned the examples while I was lecturing/discussing
[16:37] <computercolin> I think I need to meet this stump person
[16:38] <paulproteus> Yes
[16:38] <computercolin> MA?
[16:38] <paulproteus> MD
[16:38] <computercolin> in due time
[16:38] <paulproteus> I think that one reason Saturday had so much better attendance is that it seemed more supported and clear.
[16:38] <paulproteus> "supported" in the sense that the publicity materials indicated you'd always have someone to turn to and ask for help.
[16:38] <paulproteus> And you didn't have to do something awesome, which is a scary idea in a way.
[16:39] <computercolin> Yeah, risk, confusion about an event may turn people away
[16:39] <paulproteus> Also we asked people to apply in advance, and after days of waiting, we told them "Yes you're in!" and asked them to reconfirm by email.
[16:39] <paulproteus> A high degree of interactivity with the organizers created more of a commitment.
[16:39] * computercolin makes note
[16:39] <paulproteus> And there was nothing "I have to" about the commitment -- instead, it was "I'm so excited to!"
[16:40] <paulproteus> "Thanks for giving me this chance!"
[16:40] <computercolin> on the teaching side, any list of "levels" for people to work through
[16:40] <computercolin> You said you wished you had a list of activities to choose from?
[16:40] <computercolin> Are there such lists, I wonder if someone has a book on this stuff,
[16:40] <paulproteus> Like at http://openetherpad.org/session-2 we have a bunch of exercises
[16:40] <paulproteus> That went well
[16:40] <paulproteus> But only once we figured out what the exercises should be, and honed them and made sure they worked
[16:40] <computercolin> paulproteus: you should write the book on getting involved in OSS
[16:40] <paulproteus> And we only had it for *our* event
[16:41] <paulproteus> The other 3 teachers didn't have anything with such clarity as we ended up, I think
[16:41] <paulproteus> I'm working on it :P
[16:41] <paulproteus> computercolin: If so, I don't even know how I would organize it, so you should be my editor.
[16:41] <paulproteus> (75% serious)
[16:41] <computercolin> ;P
[16:41] <computercolin> summer project?
[16:42] <paulproteus> One last thing
[16:42] <paulproteus> Clarity is SO important.
[16:42] <computercolin> I'm doing "Hacking the art of something devious", it has a good format
[16:42] <computercolin> clarity
[16:42] <paulproteus> No one wants to work on something from a bug tracker.
[16:42] *** DPic_ is now known as DPic.
[16:42] <paulproteus> Everyone wants to do a Fedora Design Bounty.
[16:43] <paulproteus> Which is why DPic and I are doing http://openhatch.org/wiki/Starling for projects
[16:43] * paulproteus finds a good example
[16:43] <paulproteus> http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@freeculture.org/msg04752.html
[16:43] <computercolin> Hmm, reading up on this 
[16:43] <computercolin> Totally unaware of FudDesign Bounties
[16:43] <paulproteus> I'm desperate for new web team people for freeculture.org
[16:44] <paulproteus> Now we have a new one
[16:44] <paulproteus> Tell people what to do, and don't waste their brain space by creating worry about having choices.
[16:44] <paulproteus> At least, delay the choices until they can meaningfully make them.
[16:44] <computercolin> what are the rewards for design bounties?
[16:44] <computercolin> recognition?
[16:44] <paulproteus> Stickers or something :P
[16:45] <paulproteus> YES, recog
[16:45] <computercolin> Hmm, interesting concept, does this draw new people in?
[16:45] <paulproteus> re: "delay the choices": That's the difference between "Which of these bitesize bugs in Sugar do you want to work on?" vs. "Install this OS X VM. Play with Sugar. In particular, try doing these three things using these three apps."
[16:45] <computercolin> nerds are a lot about egos
[16:45] <paulproteus> computercolin: I tried it with http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@freeculture.org/msg04752.html and it worked amazingly well
[16:45] <paulproteus> And she tried it with Fedora Design Team and it worked *amazingly* well -- read the comments on her blog posts
[16:46] <Zathras> computercolin, I just read you are a vim-person. Do you like this one too? :P http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
[16:46] * computercolin has a lot of reading to do
[16:46] <paulproteus> computercolin: "Getting people involved" gets me really really excited.
[16:46] * computercolin can tell!
[16:47] <paulproteus> It means I write a *lot*.
[16:47] <paulproteus> Here's the thing.
[16:47] <paulproteus> Nearly no hackathons I've been to have produced anything of value on the project they're supposed to.
[16:47] <computercolin> not directly
[16:47] <paulproteus> So let's just stop pretending they are about that, and really focus on teaching.
[16:47] <paulproteus> BTW I have a lot of "the thing"s.
[16:48] <paulproteus> Lots of random thoughts flying around in my head; hence the need for an editor.
[16:48] <computercolin> secretary ;)
[16:48] <paulproteus> Co-author! (-:
[16:48] <computercolin> man, this is serious
[16:48] <paulproteus> "this"?
[16:49] <computercolin> Stump a filing desk?
[16:49] * Nightrose nags paulproteus about a blog post :D
[16:49] <computercolin> Okay, will keep in mind the teaching focus
[16:49] <computercolin> Probably right, not going to get a huge amount done
[16:50] <computercolin> I'm glad the "eurohackers" are educators:
[16:50] <computercolin> http://primarypad.com/
[16:50] <computercolin> paulproteus: Thank you so much, I should move on, as maybe you do too.
[16:50] <-- freedeb has left this server (Quit: Ex-Chat).
[16:51] <computercolin> Tons of great stuff here. Certainly going to use it
[16:51] <computercolin> And i'll be thinking about bounties
[16:51] * computercolin waves