Drupal governance meeting, October 12

gistfile1.txt

gdemet
A couple other housekeeping items I’d like to mention before we get started:

[4:01] 
First, I wanted to make sure that folks know that Slack admin @ultimike will be in channel during today’s meeting. Please feel free to DM him directly if you have any concerns that you feel he should address.

[4:02] 
Second, following the discussion in the first four meetings, we’ve agreed that in addition to recording transcripts, it also makes sense for us to create a list of the recommendations distilled out of each meeting that can be passed along to Drupal leadership (including Dries and the Drupal Association) as well as shared publicly. We will be providing this uncurated list using the same language used in each end-of-meeting recap. We may also separately provide a list of recommendations from our group, or as individuals.

[4:02] 
For today’s meeting, I’d like to offer a few “discussion questions” to kick things off. I’ll plan to keep these open for about 10 minutes before moving onto the next question. At the end, I’ll summarize what I’ve heard today and ask people to vote for the items that they think are important to address as part of this process.

[4:02] 
*Question 1:* When you think of “the Drupal community”, what does that mean to you? Who makes up the community and what are the places (physical and virtual) where that community exists?

[4:04] 
(Don't everyone try to answer at once!)

fullcolorcoder [4:04 PM] 
To me as soon as two people get together and talk about Drupal, that's community

ultimike [4:05 PM] 
waves

deanvalentine [4:05 PM] 
Yeah that. I see all who are involved as community. That includes users, coders, designers, etc, etc

[4:06] 
ANyone who touhces Drupal in any way

mlhess [4:06 PM] 
End users?

deanvalentine [4:07 PM] 
Yes absolutely.

[4:07] 
The product is ultimately "for" them after all


[4:07] 
ANd they have a role in shaping it, right?

alexpott [4:09 PM] 
Can you be in a community if you don't know you're in it? I know plenty of Drupal users who don't know that they are using Drupal. Including people who are very competent at administering a Drupal site.

deanvalentine [4:10 PM] 
Good question

fullcolorcoder [4:10 PM] 
Yea they're like guests in the community. Like driving through a town and didn't see the "Welcome to Drupal" sign.


deanvalentine [4:10 PM] 
You can be a non-contributing member to any community I suppose

[4:10] 
non-active any way

gdemet [4:11 PM] 
So is there a distinction between those who contribute to Drupal and those who don't? For the purposes of this question, I'm defining "contribution" very broadly to include non-code contributions.

acrosman 
[4:12 PM] 
I've certainly discovered I was considered parts of certain communities long after others thought I'd become part of it.  Most related to geography, but certainly it's an option.

alexpott [4:13 PM] 
I don't think that the definition of community should depend on contribution. Like the only barrier should be thinking "I want to take part in Drupal" - and then the existing community needs have the "All welcome" sign up.


nicklewisatx [4:13 PM] 
Seems pretty simple to me. As soon as you start interacting with the humans behind Drupal, you are part of the community (whether you like it or not).

acrosman [4:13 PM] 
I do see that there is a difference between those who contribute (with a very broad definition), those who do not, and frankly those who more or less actively freeload (which I see as different from just not contributing). (edited)

alannaburke
[4:14 PM] 
@gdemet i want to take a little issue with your wording of the definition of “contribution” - the definition should always include non-code contribution, that shouldn’t need to be an overly broad definition. Folks who participate in these discussions, in DD&I, in issue queues, in event planning - in anything regarding Drupal, that’s all contribution, and I think that is something we need to make really clear so that those folks feel as valued and welcomed as those who code.

gdemet [4:15 PM] 
@alannaburke I agree with you 100%, but I wanted to be clear because last time I used the phrase "contributor community" in this channel, people were confused because they thought I was just talking about people who contributed code to the project.

alannaburke
[4:16 PM] 
@gdemet i figured that you personally agreed, but i wanted to make that point for the rest of the folks here. i think it’s really, really important.

davidhernandez [4:17 PM] 
@alexpott How do you define "take part in the community"? (edited)

fullcolorcoder [4:17 PM] 
We could probably say that end users are part of our community technically. The moment they know they're using Drupal they are probably technically contributors no? Like there's a chance they could say something in an issue queue or let a developer know of an issue, or get involved in other ways.

gdemet [4:17 PM] 
FYI, I'm going to move onto the next question in about 3 minutes

alexpott [4:18 PM] 
@davidhernandez maybe however the person would like to?

acrosman [4:18 PM] 
@fullcolorcoder there are plenty of users who don't engage on the issue queues at all, but know they are using Drupal.  I'm pretty sure all agencies have lots of those users in their customer base.

davidhernandez 
[4:18 PM] 
What I'm getting at is what things are community but not contribution?

adshill [4:19 PM] 
I think that being part of a community has to involve some level of choice. I'm pretty sure that you could use Drupal, but not want to consider yourself as part of the community, not interact in any of the spaces or have any involvement with its members. I think you make a decision to be part of a community by being in the same spaces and having things in common with the other members.

dsquaredb [4:21 PM] 
I would even suggest there are many who interact at DrupalCon, etc., that at least initially have no intention or even thought about community.

alexpott [4:21 PM] 
When I was learning Drupal I didn't think of myself as part of a community - after attending my first Drupalcon I thought hey I want to be a part of that. (edited)

fullcolorcoder [4:21 PM] 
@acrosman That's what I meant by in other ways. Indirectly even.


gdemet [4:21 PM] 
*Question 2:* What does “governance" mean to you in the context of the Drupal community? What rights and responsibilities do you have as a member of this community? How are those rights and responsibilities regulated and sustained?

adshill
[4:23 PM] 
How long you got? hehe

gdemet [4:24 PM] 
@adshill let's go 15 minutes on this one

adshill
[4:24 PM] 
Thats fair :slightly_smiling_face:

[4:27] 
Personally going to start with the last one: I think the rights and responsibilities we have within the project and community are currently somewhat determined by Dries, somewhat by the Code of Conduct, somewhat by the Drupal Association and somewhat self-determined. In short, they're  determined depending on the context and the rights and responsibilities at play. So its not easy to know.

fullcolorcoder [4:29 PM] 
Governance to me means our compass that points north. What's best for the community and for Drupal. One main that that pops in my head is that we should have the right to be heard and the responsibility to hear others in a kind fashion. I've witnessed people be closed off and dismissive as well as people hear each other out even if it was awkward. We only have each other to hold ourselves accountable to our governance.


gdemet [4:33 PM] 
2 more minutes before the next question

adshill
[4:33 PM] 
For me I feel that whatever we do in the community, governance helps inform us the way in which we should and can do it. Its the values, structures, policies and methods that form the back bone of the community and project enabling us to carry out the work we do. (edited)

gdemet [4:33 PM] 
oh, wait, I said we'd go 15, didn't I

[4:33] 
5 more minutes

dsquaredb [4:35 PM] 
I think generally people see governance as the entity to set and enforce the rules of conduct - with government as the model we most often have for reference.

agentrickard [4:36 PM] 
set, adjudicate, and enforce

alannaburke [4:37 PM] 
I think governance encompasses our leaders, who they are, how they are chosen, what their responsibilities are, how those responsibilities are decided. And that has to reflect the values of the community.

[4:37] 
I think it also includes how leaders enforce the rules of the community as decided by the leaders and the community itself

agentrickard [4:38 PM] 
right, you want to be sure people are elected / appointed who can carry out the spirit of the law / rules

adshill
[4:38 PM] 
Agreed @dsquaredb thats the way its seen - If you look outside of government however its far from the case in almost every other context. If you take the UN pillars of governance, or charity governance, or corporate governance even, its steps way beyond that.

gdemet [4:38 PM] 
*Question 3:* As we continue to grow and evolve community governance, what are some of the considerations we need to keep in mind? How can we build a structure that works for a global community that includes people from many diverse backgrounds and cultures? (edited)

dsquaredb [4:39 PM] 
But taking the govt analogy further, you don't want a rigged system or corrupt officials

adshill [4:40 PM] 
Awesome question.

alannaburke
[4:41 PM] 
I think it’s really important that we keep in mind that we want to build and maintain a community full of people that we want to be around and support  - positive people who represent the values of the project. We need to reject meritocracy, jerks who are good coders, toxic personalities. We need to uplift and mentor and support as many diverse folks as we can. And I think we need to put the values and code of conduct in the forefront of everything we do.

[4:44] 
I also think it might be valuable for us as a community to find a way to learn about various backgrounds and cultures in order to better understand others in the community. i don’t know how we would approach that, but as i do more work in DD&I, i see more folks who want/lack an understanding of where others are coming from purely because they have a cultural/geographic background gap.

adshill
[4:44 PM] 
I believe key things we need to consider are how we embrace and support participation, allowing people to have their say whatever their context, educating over alienating, ensuring accountability and transparency. (edited)

fullcolorcoder [4:46 PM] 
@alannaburke I don't like the idea of "rejecting" people because people can grow and we shouldn't make those types feel permanently unwelcome. What does that mean to you?

adshill
[4:46 PM] 
I'd love to move away from governance being about punishment and being about understanding, educating and supporting.
 

dsquaredb [4:48 PM] 
@adshill but unfortunately, I get a sense from lurking in slack channels and elsewhere that punishment is more often the goal (edited)

acrosman 
[4:49 PM] 
I think the question itself is part of the answer.  It's openly recognizing that this will _not_ be the last time governance will be debated and likely adjusted.  Over time it will need to shift again. Not because we're going to be wrong now, but because the project, community, and people involved with all change.

adshill [4:50 PM] 
Yes. This! We are all learning on this journey - every single one of us.

alannaburke
[4:50 PM] 
@fullcolorcoder i think that’s a good but complicated point. i don’t think it’s so much about turning people away from the community at the outset, ie, rejecting them, but i think that sometimes, both in drupal and in the tech world at large, we give jerks who can code way too many chances. they’ve been told their behavior is unacceptable, they’ve been asked to change, they’ve been given resources - and they don’t change. i don’t think those folks are worth the time and emotional resources and i’d like to see a community where less time and energy is spent on people like that and more time and energy spent on, say, mentoring young coders. I’d like to be part of a community that is strong enough in its values to say “hey, you know what, we’ve asked you several times to change your behavior and you haven’t so you’re no longer welcome here” and stick to it.

gdemet [4:51 PM] 
So we have about 10 minutes left, folks can continue talking on this topic, revisit past topics, or bring up other topics if they wish

mlhess [4:51 PM] 
I am going to say something that ties back to the other point, but it needs flushing out.   For community members, punshment is a last result and the result of a failure someplace along the line.  For trolls, it is different.

[4:51] 
as trolls are  not really part of the community

[4:51] 
or is that wrong?

davereid [4:52 PM] 
I would not make that exclusion

davidhernandez 
[4:53 PM] 
There should also be a difference in the standard that is applied to those in leadership/prominent positions.

mlhess [4:53 PM] 
That I agree with

alannaburke
[4:54 PM] 
re:trolls - i think there needs to be a point at which we can determine that someone is no longer acting in good faith

[4:54] 
which can be difficult

fullcolorcoder [4:54 PM] 
@alannaburke maybe like an official warning system or something? I'm not sure how that could be/is enforced.

alannaburke
[4:55 PM] 
we have moderation guidelines for the DDI channel that work pretty well. it’s a tiered system, kind of like strikes, with various responses. like, a moderator talks to you, you get kicked from the channel/the slack/etc

davidhernandez 
[4:56 PM] 
that would be part of code of conduct i assume

alannaburke [4:56 PM] 
or we could have participation guidelines that are complementary to the code of conduct

drnikki
[4:57 PM] 
Other communities talk about “consequence ladders” and have “matrices of impact” as ways to help figure out the best approach for when someone’s behavior has a negative impact on someone else

[4:58] 
and this steers it away from “punishment” “rejection” “exclusion”

mlhess [4:58 PM] 
I like "matrices of impact"

gdemet [4:58 PM] 
2 minute warning!

adshill
[4:59 PM] 
I think matrices of impact is excellent. Could also work both ways - the impact your actions have on you, and on others.

nicklewisatx [4:59 PM] 
Trolls by their very nature are going to work around any rules we create. It may make sense to first settle on how to deal with difficult situations where all are acting in "good faith."

fullcolorcoder [4:59 PM] 
I wonder if providing more mentorship resources could help prevent that behavior or reinforce the code of conduct better. (edited)

adshill [5:00 PM] 
I think so often people don't actually know the impact they're having - and that has to be explained to people in an effective way to have impact on their behaviour.

alannaburke
[5:02 PM] 
I do think it’s important to make sure people understand the impact they have on others, but again, i want to make sure that we don’t waste too much time on negative actors, because it takes away the time we have to spend on everyone and everything else. People can change, but sadly, they often don’t.

adshill [5:02 PM] 
I think its about having the right people in the right roles to do that.

drnikki
[5:03 PM] 
Mentorship and resources can’t hurt, but often the biggest impact is 1:1 conversations and that stuff doesn’t scale.  Which is why it’s important to have community support and infrastructure that makes it clear what kind of behavior is encouraged

adshill [5:03 PM] 
But yes, it can be considered wasted if unsuccessful...

gdemet [5:03 PM] 
okay, wrapping up the discussion portion of today's meeting and moving onto the summary and voting!

[5:03] 
Here's what I heard today:

dsquaredb [5:03 PM] 
But it is also true that there are different levels of "impact" when someone feels offended and a matrices of impact approach could go a long way toward resolving things

gdemet [5:03 PM] 
While the community may include anyone who interacts with Drupal in any way, there is a distinction between those who just use Drupal and those who deliberately choose to be a part of it in some way.

[5:03] 
Understanding the rights and responsibilities that come with being part of the Drupal community is a responsibility that’s shared between various institutions but also relies on how we hold ourselves accountable to each other.
6

[5:04] 
Leaders help set expectations by setting and upholding rules in a way that reflects the shared values of the community.
4

[5:04] 
Building an inclusive and diverse community requires being able to understand and appreciate those with backgrounds and cultures different from our own.
8

[5:04] 
We should support participation by positive people who represent the values of the project.
5

[5:04] 
We should avoid a focus on “punishment” for those whose behavior has a negative impact on others, but we need processes and procedures in place to identify and deal with trolls and other bad actors.
8

[5:04] 
Governance will need to change and evolve over time as the project and the people involved with it change.
6

[5:05] 
Please vote for the topics that you felt were most important. You can vote for multiple topics.

adshill [5:05 PM] 
Wow... I want to vote for them all.

gdemet [5:05 PM] 
You can!

adshill [5:06 PM] 
Thats a lot of right clicking :wink:

gdemet [5:07 PM] 
I'll leave voting open until 15 after the hour before capturing the transcript and vote totals.

agentrickard [5:09 PM] 
how the bloody heck do you vote?

[5:09] 
slack--

fullcolorcoder [5:09 PM] 
i think click the little emoticon under the topics above to add your 'reaction'

adshill [5:10 PM] 
thanks @gdemet!

agentrickard [5:10 PM] 
and then hunt for six days to find the + sign

fullcolorcoder [5:10 PM] 
@agentrickard you can just click on one that's already there and it'll add your vote :slightly_smiling_face:

gdemet [5:11 PM] 
Thank you to everyone who was here, including the lurkers!


agentrickard [5:11 PM] 
that is so not clear

davereid 
[5:12 PM] 
Click on the plus one to plus one the plus one

agentrickard [5:13 PM] 
thanks

gdemet [5:14 PM] 
Oh, and a general FYI, we'll be announcing more meetings as soon as we get them lined up. We're working on finding some folks from other parts of the world who can lead discussions.

[5:15] 
If you're interested in being one of those folks, please let me, @ultimike @davidhernandez @nerdstein or @U1B3LUD3P know!

adshill [5:16 PM] 
Yay to Intercultural Dialogue! I am +1ing the point by @U4100PGE7 on that above again as it wasn't in the summary