mozilla #toronto log

mozllia-toronto.txt

Nov 15 11:45:01 <AaronMT>	http://www.toronto.ca/newsroom/OccupyNotice.pdf
Nov 15 11:45:46 <beltzner>	OH MY GOD
Nov 15 11:45:50 <beltzner>	THOSE NAZIS
Nov 15 11:45:53 <beltzner>	no, wait
Nov 15 11:45:56 <beltzner>	that's actually a pretty reasonable request
Nov 15 11:46:04 <AaronMT>	Indeed
Nov 15 11:46:11 <beltzner>	"No more camping out in public parks, please. Come back at 5am, leave at midnight."
Nov 15 11:46:39 <mdas>	yeah that's pretty reasonable
Nov 15 11:48:06 *	anode|away (alice@moz-62185DFD.cable.teksavvy.com) has joined #toronto
Nov 15 11:48:41 <bhearsum>	to be honest, i was surprised that was allowed in the first place
Nov 15 11:48:53 *	zuzelvp has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 15 11:50:34 <beltzner>	I think there was reasonable hope that it would exhaust itself
Nov 15 11:53:30 <bwinton>	So, if I'm not part of Occupy Toronto, can I visit the park at, say, 2am?
Nov 15 11:53:33 <AaronMT>	Frankly, #OWS is much more entertaining
Nov 15 11:53:48 <beltzner>	bwinton: yes, and the document allows that
Nov 15 11:53:56 <beltzner>	they said "don't have tents there between 12:01am and 5:00am"
Nov 15 11:54:04 <beltzner>	they're basically saying "stop sleeping in the park overnight and living there"
Nov 15 11:54:31 <bwinton>	"Using, entering or gathering in the park between the hours of 12:01 a.m. and 5:30 a.m.."
Nov 15 11:54:55 *	mdas has quit (Quit: mdas)
Nov 15 11:55:24 *	mdas (mdas@8CB764BC.D30B51A1.412CF160.IP) has joined #toronto
Nov 15 11:55:33 <beltzner>	I think the city doesn't have much of a leg to stand on for the using/entering/gathering part
Nov 15 11:56:24 <bhearsum>	davidb: the under the counter outlets do work now
Nov 15 11:56:46 <bwinton>	beltzner: I would agree, but it'll be interesting to see if anyone feels like challenging it.
Nov 15 11:56:49 <davidb>	bhearsum: hurrah!
Nov 15 11:57:10 <espindola>	not being allowed to walk in a park is pretty bad
Nov 15 11:57:16 <beltzner>	bwinton: I'd need to check city bylaws on after hours park access
Nov 15 11:57:36 <bwinton>	beltzner: Ah, good point.  (Also, probably not worth your time.  :)
Nov 15 11:58:05 <beltzner>	there it is:
Nov 15 11:58:05 <beltzner>	§ 608-9. Access.
Nov 15 11:58:05 <beltzner>	A. Unless authorized by a parks access agreement, no person shall access or occupy a
Nov 15 11:58:08 <beltzner>	park for non-recreational uses, or to access an adjacent property.
Nov 15 11:58:10 <beltzner>	B. Unless authorized by permit, no person shall use, enter or gather in a park between
Nov 15 11:58:13 <beltzner>	the hours of 12:01 a.m. and 5:30 a.m.
Nov 15 11:58:16 <beltzner>	http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_608.pdf
Nov 15 11:58:52 *	eeejay_is_afk is now known as eeejay
Nov 15 11:59:08 <espindola>	regardless, it is a regression in practice. I am sure I walked by, say, the queens park on my way back home.
Nov 15 11:59:13 <bwinton>	Well, there you go.  So I was breaking the law in more than one way during my misspent youth…  :)
Nov 15 11:59:38 <beltzner>	espindola: it's a bylaw, which means it can be selectively enforced to prevent nuisance
Nov 15 12:00:08 *	mari has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 15 12:00:18 <espindola>	in which case the observation of " it is a regression in practice" stands
Nov 15 12:00:29 <beltzner>	no it doesn't
Nov 15 12:00:37 <beltzner>	people have been moved along from parks or prohibited from entering in the past
Nov 15 12:00:47 <beltzner>	it means that it hasn't happened to _you_
Nov 15 12:01:53 <espindola>	well, it is a regression for me. I have never been prohibited from walking in park, or seen someone be asked to.
Nov 15 12:02:07 *	mari (chatzilla@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) has joined #toronto
Nov 15 12:02:10 <bwinton>	espindola: I see a lot of people speeding, too, but you can still get a ticket for it.  (I think, anyways…  Has Rob Ford repealed the speed limit yet? ;)
Nov 15 12:02:45 *	anode|away has quit (Quit: anode|away)
Nov 15 12:02:57 <bwinton>	(Why can't I dial "92 4400#" to get to conference room 4400?  :(  )
Nov 15 12:02:58 <espindola>	I don't think it is optional to enforce speed limits
Nov 15 12:03:17 <espindola>	not doing so is a failure
Nov 15 12:03:24 <bwinton>	espindola: And yet…
Nov 15 12:03:35 <bhearsum>	it's not optional, but there's a lot of discretion usually
Nov 15 12:04:03 <espindola>	not stopping me from walking by a park on my way home was not a failure in the part of any policy officer
Nov 15 12:04:48 *	ZeroCool (ZeroCool@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com) has joined #toronto
Nov 15 12:04:49 <neilio>	hey, at least toronto is fol!owing established law, unlike some of the other police interventions in the US
Nov 15 12:05:04 <neilio>	overall it's not an unreasonable requrest
Nov 15 12:05:08 <neilio>	er, request
Nov 15 12:05:17 <espindola>	sure, relatively speaking we are very well off
Nov 15 12:05:28 *	mari has quit (Ping timeout)
Nov 15 12:05:29 *	joduinn-commute is now known as joduinn-mtg
Nov 15 12:05:32 <espindola>	(I am Brazilian :-) )
Nov 15 12:05:43 <espindola>	but it is always sad to see a regression
Nov 15 12:05:52 <beltzner>	sigh
Nov 15 12:05:55 <beltzner>	it's not a regression, espindola 
Nov 15 12:05:58 <beltzner>	you're just wrong on that point
Nov 15 12:06:28 <espindola>	I could walk, now I cannot
Nov 15 12:06:36 <espindola>	is one of those facts wrong?
Nov 15 12:06:49 <AaronMT>	espindola: Perhaps it's just the language written in the notice
Nov 15 12:06:49 <beltzner>	yes
Nov 15 12:07:09 <espindola>	so, which one of those facts is wrong?
Nov 15 12:07:19 <beltzner>	espindola: you could walk as long as allowed before, you can walk as long as allowed now
Nov 15 12:07:31 <beltzner>	what's different is that they are enforcing the rule for that park, because of this incident, right now
Nov 15 12:07:34 <espindola>	and it was allowed before
Nov 15 12:07:36 <beltzner>	there is no regression
Nov 15 12:07:37 <espindola>	and not allowed now
Nov 15 12:07:45 <beltzner>	it's a switch
Nov 15 12:07:48 <beltzner>	the switch has flipped
Nov 15 12:07:51 <beltzner>	that's not a regression
Nov 15 12:07:52 <espindola>	which is a regression
Nov 15 12:07:53 <beltzner>	no
Nov 15 12:07:58 <beltzner>	jesus christ, dude
Nov 15 12:08:17 <beltzner>	if you turn off WebGL in your browser, not seeing WebGL is not a regression
Nov 15 12:08:19 <espindola>	why, flipping the switch prevents me from doing something I could do before
Nov 15 12:08:22 <beltzner>	it's the cause of that change
Nov 15 12:08:32 <beltzner>	it's an intentional consequence
Nov 15 12:08:46 <espindola>	intentional or not it is a regression
Nov 15 12:08:53 <beltzner>	er, the _result_ of the change
Nov 15 12:09:02 <beltzner>	espindola: from my perspective, it's not a regression at all
Nov 15 12:09:03 <espindola>	I never suspected that they unintentionally switched it :-)
Nov 15 12:09:08 <davidb>	define regression :)
Nov 15 12:09:11 <beltzner>	now we don't have filthy brazilians traipsing through a park
Nov 15 12:09:17 <beltzner>	win win!
Nov 15 12:09:27 <espindola>	I cannot do something I was allowed to do before
Nov 15 12:09:41 <bwinton>	espindola: You don't know that…
Nov 15 12:09:55 <beltzner>	forget it
Nov 15 12:10:00 <beltzner>	this is making me angry and it really doesn't need to
Nov 15 12:10:02 <bwinton>	It's unlikely you'ld be kicked out, since you don't look like a dirty hippie.
Nov 15 12:10:04 <espindola>	I know for I fact that I walked by a park after 12:00
Nov 15 12:10:09 <beltzner>	espindola: yes, it's a regression, and one that would never happen in brazil, I'm sure
Nov 15 12:10:34 <espindola>	beltzner, true, the situation in there is already worse
Nov 15 12:10:38 *	davidb is uncomfortable
Nov 15 12:11:22 <beltzner>	we're just disagreeing on the definition of regression in this case
Nov 15 12:11:29 <davidb>	BINGO!
Nov 15 12:11:29 <beltzner>	you're being absolutely literal, and I'm not
Nov 15 12:11:30 <beltzner>	it's fine
Nov 15 12:11:38 <espindola>	my definition is "I lost something I was allowed to do"
Nov 15 12:11:47 <bhearsum>	beltzner: did you forget what it's like to work with engineers or something? ;)
Nov 15 12:11:51 <beltzner>	espindola: I don't care?
Nov 15 12:11:54 <beltzner>	yeah, I don't care
Nov 15 12:12:08 <espindola>	beltzner, didn't noticed that, given that you were arguing
Nov 15 12:12:48 *	zuzelvp (zuzelvp@2112147D.C3507A2D.9A8C35B4.IP) has joined #toronto
Nov 15 12:12:54 <beltzner>	no, I don't care that you lost something you were allowed to do
Nov 15 12:13:03 *	mconley is also getting uncomfortable
Nov 15 12:13:15 <beltzner>	get a fucking cushion?
Nov 15 12:13:29 *	beltzner adds things to the list of items about which he doesn't care
Nov 15 12:13:56 <espindola>	well, I didn't expect you to
Nov 15 12:14:08 <espindola>	but at lest you agree that I did
Nov 15 12:14:12 <espindola>	least
Nov 15 12:14:22 <beltzner>	you're a piece of work, espindola 
Nov 15 12:14:28 *	mari (chatzilla@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) has joined #toronto
Nov 15 12:14:30 <beltzner>	and another student at the foot of brendan, sadly
Nov 15 12:14:38 <beltzner>	"win the argument at all costs," apparently
Nov 15 12:14:47 <beltzner>	you may score yourself a point, since that seems to matter to you
Nov 15 12:14:48 <espindola>	I completely lost the context
Nov 15 12:15:10 <beltzner>	indeed, indeed
Nov 15 12:15:14 <beltzner>	my point precisely
Nov 15 12:15:17 <beltzner>	but you won the argument!
Nov 15 12:15:21 *	beltzner pats espindola on the back
Nov 15 12:15:59 <espindola>	context being: where does brendan get in
Nov 15 12:16:26 <beltzner>	there is a distinct pattern in the argumentation style of Mozilla engineers, and it flows from Brendan's example
Nov 15 12:16:57 <beltzner>	the pattern is to focus on literal interpretations and the structure of the argument rather than the context and substance of the issue at hand
Nov 15 12:17:00 <bwinton>	espindola: In my interactions with him, brendan has seemed to prefer being right to coming to a result that everyone is happy with.
Nov 15 12:17:04 <espindola>	I am fairly new in here, and don't remember being in a thread with him, so I don't think I can claim to be his student
Nov 15 12:17:37 <beltzner>	and to disprove/invalidate the opinion of others through attacking the structure rather than the substance by preference
Nov 15 12:17:44 <beltzner>	(even if there are good substantive arguments to be made!)
Nov 15 12:17:46 <espindola>	well, what was the expected result that everyone would be happy with in this case.
Nov 15 12:18:03 *	mconley (mconley@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) has left #toronto (Leaving...)
Nov 15 12:18:05 <espindola>	the discussion in here looks to have been pretty symmetrical
Nov 15 12:18:07 <beltzner>	espindola: forget it, I'm not convinced in the slightest you're interested in that conversation
Nov 15 12:18:13 <kats>	ah, the "competitive" conflict resolution style. there's a chart on the window in union for those who missed the lunch n' learn :)
Nov 15 12:18:22 <davidb>	the trick is to make it not about domination
Nov 15 12:18:25 <hillzy>	lol katz
Nov 15 12:18:28 <hillzy>	er
Nov 15 12:18:29 <espindola>	I pointed out that I was disappointed with the change
Nov 15 12:18:30 <hillzy>	kats!
Nov 15 12:18:34 <kats>	:)
Nov 15 12:18:39 <espindola>	and an argument followed
Nov 15 12:18:45 <davidb>	also http://www.shipbrook.net/onnotice/last100.php (check the top)
Nov 15 12:18:55 <espindola>	not sure if I was expected to not be disappointed or what
Nov 15 12:19:27 <espindola>	I am not even trying to resolve any conflict
Nov 15 12:19:30 *	neilio goes back to his digital macrame
Nov 15 12:19:34 <espindola>	I don't understand why there is one
Nov 15 12:19:49 <espindola>	I am sad with the outcome
Nov 15 12:20:03 <espindola>	granted that it could be worse, and is in other places
Nov 15 12:20:25 <espindola>	and somehow the fact that others are OK with it started a discussion
Nov 15 12:21:30 <davidb>	ehsan: i have your $10
Nov 15 12:21:34 <davidb>	and i'm hungry
Nov 15 12:22:45 <espindola>	davidb, I have to pass by an ATM too
Nov 15 12:22:49 <espindola>	bmo?
Nov 15 12:22:54 <davidb>	espindola: sure - where?
Nov 15 12:22:55 *	ibarlow has quit (Quit: ibarlow)
Nov 15 12:23:14 <espindola>	there is one just north
Nov 15 12:23:16 *	ahal is now known as ahal|lunch
Nov 15 12:23:16 <beltzner>	espindola: from my side, we never really even discussed your feeling about the change, we just disagreed about whether or not this was a regression in your rights to walk through a park. Then we got caught on an unwillingness to revisit our definitions. Anyway. Bye.
Nov 15 12:23:28 <espindola>	we can do Chinese again or go for Indian
Nov 15 12:23:51 <davidb>	or vietnamese
Nov 15 12:24:06 <davidb>	looks like my 12 o clock meeting is a bust
Nov 15 12:24:11 <espindola>	beltzner, from my point of view I was attacked form pointing out that this is a regressions on what I am allowed to do 
Nov 15 12:24:50 <espindola>	I care more about content than form. Otherwise your comments would have been really offensive
Nov 15 12:25:04 <espindola>	davidb, works for me
Nov 15 12:25:06 <espindola>	now?
Nov 15 12:25:27 <davidb>	ok