etagwerker/was-transcribe.json

## was-transcribe.json
{"jobName":"RemoteRuby-Episode100-ErnestoTagwerker","accountId":"015078986747","results":{"transcripts":[{"transcript":"Let's go back. Pick Chris. It's up, Jason. Remote Ruby 1\/100 episode. This is the first generation of a remote ruby podcast. My name is Jason Charms. I'm Chris Oliver. Let's celebrate Happy Episode 100. Whoa! I'm going to start the episode with 100 reasons. I love honey Badger. Uh, that was pretty good. I love it. I like it. I don't have ah 100 reasons typed out, And it would take me a long time to list 100 things, but 360 degree coverage, air reporting, monitoring you name it, they got it. And they named their coming after a meme. And they have the fantastic podcast they dio Yeah, I think that rounds up to 100 right? Yeah. So thank you, honey. Badger for sponsoring remote ruby and keeping it going. And if you haven't checked out, honey badger there is a link in our show notes and tell them that Andrew, Chris and Jason sent you and tell them we love them. Yeah. Episode 100. How about that? I guess it's been two years now because it was July 2 years ago. We started. Really? So it's been over two years. Thanks. Pretty sure because yeah, we started it about the time I started podia So it's been over two years. You've been a podium for over two years now. Yeah, that's crazy. E didn't remote Ruby, like the meet up in April of that year is 2018. And then I was like, Nobody likes this. So let's make it a podcast. And that was, like, June or July, and we, like, trickled out some episodes. And that would mean that we've probably missed, like, a couple of months worth total, but pretty consistent, right? The only thing I've been this consistent on is my marriage so mhm, I was gonna say, as someone who's never held down a job for two years, that's just like a lot to me. Yeah, I feel the same way. Like I never until go rails like I never held a job for very long. I remember thinking about like, college is the longest time I've ever done like a single thing. You know, e hated being in college for four years, you know, surprisingly like my first like, real job. I held it for seven or eight years and then literally changed jobs three times in the next 18 months. I had this really consistent thing on my record. Then I was like, I'm gonna go work at a church, is a Navy guy, And I was like, No, I need to be a programmer. And so then I got a job is a wordpress Dev, And that's why I was like, we want to hire you to write Ruby. And I was like, got to go. But luckily, I've been a little more consistent since then. It sounds like it lead you on the right path, so it feels like they were good voices. Yeah, it's weird to think my now wife, which is crazy to say thanks, Mrs Oliver. The missus has worked at the same company for, like, 19 or maybe 20 years now, which is wow, fascinating to be, You know, she's moved up the ranks and this big company and went from tech support kind of like customer support things early that days, and I can't even imagine working at the same place for 20 years. That's so strange. To me. It seems like something that people would have done my parents or their parents. You know, Stick with the same job for 40 years. Hey, you know, if it works and it like, if you're in a company where you can keep changing roles all the time growing and stuff, that's great. Yeah, it's just crazy. Well, today we are extremely glad. Thio, have a repeat guests on our show. Ernesto, you Chris and I met at Southeast Ruby the first year. Ernesto is a speaker. And then you came back to the last Southeast tribute. I think it's well Hey, Yeah, it's been a while, I think. One year since we talked in person when things were normal actually feels like five years ago. It does. I'm so happy toe be here again. I didn't think I was special at all. But then you were like, Hey, can you join me from our 1\/100 episode? And I was like, Wow, they really like me. That was it. We were planning it out. And we said there is no one that can meet our standard for Episode 100. And so you were at you are like, No d ahh! Forget it. We're gonna get Ernesto. But yeah. Welcome back. Do you mind giving just kind of brief introduction of what you dio. And just for those who maybe aren't familiar with you. Yeah, so just like you folks, it's been a while since I held to a job for more than two years. So I've been doing this for, like about nine years. I'm the founder off bamboo laps dot com, which is consultancy. We do, ah, lot off work with Ruby rails, JavaScript and recently, a lot off react Js. And a couple of years ago we launched the service. That's all about rails upgrades called fast ruby dot io. So if you have struggled with rails, upgrades or if you've looked for guides about operating rails, we probably showed up in one of your searches. Yeah, it's It's been a while since I've been doing this, and I love it. My role has been changing a lot, and I like it. And I'm also like, happy that I get to go to conferences and meet cool people like you. Yeah, it's think I spoke at Southeast Ruby the first one many years ago, and that was my very first conference and speaking in English, you know, originally from Argentina, and I'm just super grateful that you took a chance on me and, yeah, we got to meet their and and it's been great to catch up, but every conference Yeah, that's awesome. I vaguely remember you telling me that was your first talk in English. It was really good. It was the open source. I'm trying, Remember? Open source. Like when nights and weekends aren't enough. Yeah. Yeah, it was around the time I was taking my first steps as a parent and trying to balance, like, client work and open source contributions and parenting. And I was, like, very personal to me. You know, it was basically a way to bacon contributions in your workflow. And yeah, I think it's online. You I think you're recorded a video off that talk. And yeah, it was scary, but also, like, super exciting to be in this church like event space and talk Thio. Ah, lot of ruby ists. And to meet like other Ruby, it's like you and and Jason and F D and Ernie Miller. Anyway, it was super exciting. Yeah, I will grab the link to that video and it looks like Andrew might have already done it. I'm on top of it. Yeah, We'll put that in the show. Notes. Yeah, You nailed it. That first year, Jason, with the event place called Ruby, that was kind of like a church, so almost too perfect. I don't even think we looked at any other venues. We knew there were shortcomings with a venue like parking and places to eat. But we were like, we can't not do it here. That was fun. Conferences feels so long ago. Yeah, for riel. I'm used Thio catching up with you guys in person and going out to eat. It's, um you're spending way too much money at some fancy restaurant, you know, after conference day and or the dinner club. Yeah, we're able to do that. And so long it feels like So next time are we gonna have to go extra hard. E don't know. The last place we it was like the butcher and the boar in Minneapolis, and I thought I went pretty hard that night there. But also, as I talked about the last episode, I've been trying out a plant based diet, so I'm pretty sure if I go hard at the butcher and the board I might just die like right there, So, yeah, that would be, uh, pretty extreme night for you. I've been eating mostly fruits and vegetables. Give me the 96 ounce porterhouse 25 dinner rolls, 61 mushrooms and a lamb chop. Oh, I miss those days. Oh, I I regret to inform you that the butcher on the boar had to close down because of co fit. So, yeah, I'm sorry. My friend, who lives in Minneapolis was like, Hey, this place shut down because of covitz. So you got lucky to be there with your friends. Uh, I think you Chris and I were talking about going thio Micro comp in Minneapolis this year. And, like butchering the board was on the list. That was gonna be like rails, comp two point because it was at the same hotel in everything. Dreams are dead. Yeah. Did you end up attending the remote micro comp version? Did not me neither. The value that I got out of the one I've been to is the meeting other people part and networking. Kind of really what I get out of, like, ruby and rails, comp and even southeast Ruby. So It's hard for me to do that online like I could do it, but it's a lot easier for me to like, take someone's attention for five minutes and try to talk to them in person. I remember the Last Rails Comp in Minneapolis. I think that's the first time I met Andrew in a conference and I was just like, you know, kind of shadowing your group. Jason and Chris and Andrew came along and I was like, You know, I'm usually shy with new people, so I don't think we talk more than three words. And I think there was even Maybe Andrew Culver from Bullet Train was there, and you folks were talking a lot about open sores and code. And I think Andrew and I were there, just, you know, paying attention and listening closely. But we didn't really talk that much. Yeah, I am also kind of shy and from new people, so I was like, Oh, thank God there's another shy person we can bond, but like telepathically. Yeah, I'm the same way and I just tag along with Jason because he knows everybody, so it makes it easy. That's because I went to all these things. I didn't know anyone, and I was. I'm actually also very shy and I just was like, I'm going to try and do this And people are really friendly in the ruby community and even if they probably secretly hate me, they at least are very nice to me, and I'll take it so well. One thing that Ernesto said is that if you search for upgrading a rail, zap, his content will come up. And that is completely correct and is also why I reached out to him and asked him to be on the show because I was looking at upgrading a rails app and I was like, All right, well, what's kind of involved? And I came across fast Ruby, which is a blogging, and they have a awesome e book and it's so much content about upgrading rails. And I was like, I have to talk to this man because I was like it was just such great content and I was like, People need to know this exists. So that's why he's on the show, other than the fact that we needed, like a stellar guest for number 100. 0, thank you. Yes, well, I'm a true believer in the slow and steady approach to, you know, building a brand and building service. So, you know, fast ruby dot io is where it is today because everybody in the team has a goal off one block post per month. And right now we're about seven senior software engineers. So that means that every month we have, at least for posts that go out and we try to block us much as possible about the problems and the issues and the tools that we use around upgrading rails. So anything that we think it's cool and everybody should know about. We blogged about it and share it with the world. And one of the changes we implement that this year is that we want to be open by default. So every time we are doing something in a private project well, like, why is this project close source like why? Why don't we open source it and there's no good reason we try to open source it. That's, ah, commendable approach, and one that I have seen resistance from in some companies and then some companies, they're like, Yeah, it should be open source. So it's always interesting to see, like the dynamics at play, that kind of lead to those types of decisions. But so on the topic of rails upgrades, I know I'm gonna add, like a little precursor here that I've read all your content. And one thing you talk about a lot is before you upgrade rails. There's a few steps that you kind of talked about. One of them is having a good test suite. So I wondered if we could talk about the kind of things you need to be thinking about if you're even considering. Is it time to upgrade rails? And along with that, What if your test suite isn't that great? Yeah, that's a good question. And we get that a lot. You know, we have to filter the leads that we get. We get about to elites per week and that usually someone reaching out a like we need to upgrade rails were running rails to three, and we really want to get to Rail six, and unfortunately, we have to turn a lot of them down. We have to tell them well, if you don't have a test suite that covers at least 60% of your code base, then you're not a good fit for us because we don't have the time. And you don't have the budget to pay us for us learning all about your business. So if we can't use your test suite to get constant feedback than it's not gonna be worth it, it's gonna be way too expensive for you to pay us to put in all the time that we would need to dio if they have a Q A team, maybe we'll consider it. Maybe we'll make an exception, but they have to know that it takes a lot more time when you don't have a test week because you have the human factor off. Q. A people going into staging and making sure that critical flow and your application works, and when we deploy, you're not gonna be losing money because we missed one part. So, yeah, test suites are super important, and they're a good filter for us to find, like teams that have been paying attention to to something as crucial is that so? What if you have a test suite that does cover 60% but the test suite is very non optimized, and it takes, like, I don't know, several hours to run. Is that something you're gonna consider or even like, even think to ask? I mean, I'm assuming you would think to ask that, but what kind of decision making goes into that situation? We have had clients with huge rails monoliths, which, you know, like their test suite would take maybe two hours to finish. And that definitely does affect the timeline for the project. One thing we can do for those clients is try to speed it up for them. Sometimes you know, it's about scaling the number of workers that are running the test. We'd Sometimes you can paralyze some of the tests weed when that's not possible. What we can do is look for bottlenecks like maybe they're actually hitting a third party service. Maybe they're hitting an A P I that they shouldn't be because you're basically testing that a P I for that company. So we try to help them in that sense. But we haven't encountered a lot of clients that have test suites that take more than two hours to finish. Like I think two hours was the top, and we have worked with clients that had, like, 40 developers working at the same time in the rails application. The most usual scenario is that they don't have tests and they want us to write tests for them. But then we tell them, Yeah, sure, Weaken do that. But it's not our special thio. Yeah, because there's so much nuance and, like domain specific knowledge that goes into that. If I could pay someone to just write all the sets for me, that would be perfect. But at that point, like you're basically hiring another employee but paying them more. So, yeah, I kind of dream about a gem that's kind of like a rack middleware that you can install and run in production for a week and then at the end of that week it has written integration tests for you, like I never started actually working on something like that. But that would be so awesome if something like that existed. That kind of like kept track of every single request that happens in production and then magically writes code for you that it's not like, you know, 100% of passing test, but it gets you, like, 80% of the way there. I would love to work on something like that or sponsor someone thio work on something like that. That would be so awesome. Because if it gets to 80% of the way there we could you know, you could have ah, developer get that 20% to achieve. At least I don't 50% code coverage, which is better than nothing. Yeah, I share in those dreams. And I would also like to say I'm also willing to sponsor. So if someone out there is even, like, considering, like, oh, that would be cool to write you now have at least two people who like Hey, I might give you money for that. I don't remember the name of it, but there was, like, a chrome extension or something that would help right system tests based on what you did in the browser. Same kind of concept. And I think this would be it would be really great to be able to kind of simulate this is roughly what we want to test or generate. Example. You know, data for those tests. So I would love, love, love, love to see more stuff like that because it's really like if you're integrating with stripe or something, you've gotta have kind of really Web books coming in. And then you want to capture those and throw him into Jace on file so you can replay that. And this is exactly something that make that workflow a lot simpler. Yeah, I love that idea. Off the chrome extension, if that could write like capybara are spec code for you, that would be pretty, pretty awesome. And it would say people a lot, a lot of time, like writing all the you know, like all the scenarios of around like Web integration tests is usually like the same. It's like go to this page, fill out or fill in this fields and then check that this thing shows up in the next page. But, yeah, it's kind of a dream that that I've had for a while anyway. So if anybody wants to build that reach out to me, I would be happy to bounce ideas on and talk about that. Yeah, the gym that Chris is referring to is called Heaven's Door, and there is also a I've used a service in the past that will kind of do the same thing where it looked like record your stuff throughout like as you like, play around in the app and record it, and it will write the test for you. But it's not Ruby specific, and it was also heck and expensive, astronomically expensive. So it's a hard problem. But if you have good test, then upgrading rails is at least doable. What's kind of the next step? Cool. Yeah, so that's, you know, one of the requirements having a good test suite, then the next one would be to have continues integration, working and hopefully you have. You're using a service that allows you to set up dual booting. So one of the things that you want to do, what every upgrade is. First try to get it to bundle, install with the next version of rails, then try toe run rail server with the next version, then try to run the test suite with it. And what Circle C. I and Travis C. I. What you can do is set up jobs to run with your current gem file, and you can set it up to run with the next gem file, which is like, If you're running rails five to maybe the next one will be around 60 and then you do a lot of iterations to get to a point where the test we'd passes. And once that happens, then you condone do some manual smoke testing to make sure that everything works. But this is a process that could take weeks or it could take months. It depends on how big the application is, and then how complex it Issa's Well, okay, so dual booting rails is something I've always been interested in, but I don't know. There's like I need to do more exploration to that because, like, I've read some articles and I know it's doable. It sounds complicated, especially if you're like you are. You are like situation where your test suite isn't great, but okay, let's say now you're dual booting rails and then you start incrementally. I assume upgrading at that point what air seem like common issues you typically run across. Some of the issues that you'll find are that some configuration is no longer there, has changed, and now we need to use a different idiom for that sometimes thea ap I changes from one version to the other. The great news is that rails has gotten a lot better between rails five and rail six. It's not the same between rails 23 and four to the application warnings were there, but not as much as they are right now in rails, Master. So right now, what you want to do is pay close attention to all the deprecation warnings that are happening in your current build and that will give you a good starting point Thio upgrade. You know, once you make sure that their gnome or deprecation warnings in your current build, then you're gonna be in much better shape. Thio bump that rails version. Some of the other common problems are that if you are monkey patching rails, you're basically touching the private interface of rails, which is never guaranteed to be the same. So if you're doing that, you're probably going to run into more problems and you want to get rid of those monkey patches or update him to use the new internals of the next release of rails. Those are the two that come to mind right now. Just made me think of a question. So I think people probably tend to think, you know, you upgrade rails and you're kind of finished at a point. But the reality is giving another year Thio and there will be another version of rails. Do you encourage people to once they get up to, like rail six Thio, continue dual booting against like rails, master. And maybe you don't care about those tests passing. But you want to keep an eye on that stuff so that your writing everything now is compatible with rail 61 as you can. We haven't article about this, and it's basically how to stay up to date so that this painful rails upgrade process doesn't happen again. You know, like if you are proactively keeping tabs on rails, master and you are proactively running dual booting on rail six and rails master, then you're probably gonna find issues sooner then if you just forget about it. So if you have, let's say you could have an optional build that runs every night against rails, master. And then the next morning you can see did the bill complete. That didn't have ah 100 errors, and that's a good way to, you know, take the temperature of your application and gradually address some of those issues that are not a problem now. But when real 61 is released, they're definitely gonna be a problem in your application. Another thing you can do is build things like Robocop rules that make sure that you don't introduce languages or idioms that are gonna be out of date in rails. 61 Another thing that came to mind is like dependencies to go back to Andrews. Question like, What are some common problems? Well, dependencies are a big problem. It's never the case, actually, like we are working on our rails upgrade project. Now that has three dependencies other than rails, and it's been running for more than 10 years. And but that's like a, you know, a fairytale. Like most of the 10 year rails, applications out there have ah 100 dependencies, and they are changing a lot. So you need to make sure that you keep up with the latest releases not just patch releases, but also like minor releases and major releases off. The dependence is that you have so you don't just want to keep on eye on the rails release and rails, master changes. But also on the other dependencies that are coupled with rails. This is the time where I I say the thing I say always, which is Please, people, please strongly version your gems in your gem file. It will make your life easier, I promise. Please make this thing always. I'm interested in the idea of like running a build against master rails each night. I'm curious, and this is just maybe not even a problem. But like I would be worried. I guess there would be times where, like, it would run and fail. Because maybe something got into a master That's still a bug or something. Do you kind of just like if you're running against that branch each night, do you just kind of not take action immediately? Maybe, Like, watch it for a little while before you like jump in and make your app work with the newest version of rails. Since it's not like an official release. Yeah, How do you kind of like temper that what you conducive? Oh, is search through the rails issues and if nothing has been reported, you can reported us is an issue and see what rails core team says. More often than not, it's going to be reported by someone as well. Like not just you, it seems like not sure about this 100% but I think Shopify and get hub are running rail 60 for sure. But maybe they're even running rail 61 in production, not entirely sure about that, but they are keeping up with the rails. Latest changes. So if there is an issue, they're probably gonna find it as well and are gonna confirm that it's not just your application. It's actually a problem with rails master. That also seems like a decent way to get involved in rails. Maybe trying thio get PRS in or issues that seems like a good track to do that. If you ran your application against it every night, you would be one of the first people to find things that's always been. My problem is I like the last to know about things, So, yeah, it's hard to find bugs and rails to go fix. But if you're running rails master and you're working on the stuff that is actively changing every day, then yeah, makes a lot of sense that you confined contributions. It gives me a good idea to like, Maybe I'll go and dual boot like jumpstart Pro and then keep it actively working with rail 61 on a regular basis but like, you know, run, get, have actions against it for C I but like, don't care if it fails or something just so that it's like just in the back of my mind. And when it does ship, I can upgrade to that, you know, and the maybe even in the release candidates and just be actively using it and ready to go a soon as it drops like that. Yeah, And for you, it could also be a good source off new material for go rails or, you know, for any of the screen cast that you do, you can talk about what's coming up in rail 61 and what things they'll need to change with. You know, your code base. Yeah, and I recently did What was that? I was fiddling with the appraisal gem, which is very similar to dual booting your app rather than your entire app against the different rails version. It's your gem against multiple rails versions. But it's, I think, basically the same concept, and you might be able to dig into that a little bit more if there are differences. But that is really nice to be able to test your gem like if you're building device and you need to support Rail's 42 and up, there's a lot of changes in rails that you probably have to be addressing in your gem. Yeah, I recently started maintaining Ruby Critic, which is a gem, too. Assess the tech debt in your application. It uses things like churn and complexity and flog and a bunch of other tools. It also uses simple cough to calculate. Like you know, what are the files that have the least code coverage? And one of the things that broke recently is the integration with Simple Cough, where there's been a lot of work good work happening in simple cough between 0.18 and 0.19. But unfortunately, one of the changes broke the Ruby critic integration, and someone found that issue and submitted a poor request that also added appraisal support to test Ruby critic with 0 18 and 0 19, and to make sure that everything works. So, yeah, when you're maintaining or creating a library, that depends on another library. It comes in really handy dio to use something like that. And I'm just gonna interject as well that for Bridgetown I was running it on the new ruby three build, and I encountered a bug. So what I did was after reporting that issue, I created a pull request to basically introduced matrix builds, which is is a concept and get up actions of running your test suite on different ruby versions or, you know, different versions or whatever. Now, the test we can run, you know, ruby to 5 to 6 to seven and the latest ruby. And if you use the actual ruby set up action that Ruby provides, then you contest head you contest Dev, They give you a lot of customization options there. So if you're thinking like, hey, when Ruby three wants to come out, we wanna upgrade. Then now is the time Thio go into your C I And if they have the ability to do that to start testing against Ruby three is well, that's a good idea. Thio submit contributions. Thio Gems that you use. I am with, you know, Ruby three coming. Hopefully, it will be released in Christmas, but yeah, with ruby to seven. They're a bunch of deprecation warnings that are gonna be coming out in every single library out there. So if you can actually run libraries with Ruby to 71 or 272 I think 271 it's the one that still has interpretation warnings. You can basically submit contributions that are changing the ruby idiom in any of the libraries that you use. I wouldn't pick rails because probably everybody has taken care of those replication warnings. But if you pick a few good ruby gems that you know people are still using and wanna address those deprecation warnings, you can just run the test suite off a library using your head or ruby to 71 and then quickly address those deprecation warnings. So it's a nice idea. I know it's through. This episode is not gonna come out and hacked over fist. But if you participated in Hecht over fist, I want to continue contributing to open source. This is a free idea for you. Yeah, I was gonna ask like How much do you see Like Ruby related things that need fixing when you're upgrading APS versus, like gems and rails configuration things? My hunch would be that it's probably less ruby stuff and more rails, configuration and gems and whatever, but I was kind of curious on that. I'm sure that a lot of things with C extensions are real pain in the butt when Ruby three comes out. But you know that usually you're not just upgrading rails from 23 to 6. You're also gonna upgrade Rubio from 227 or three or something, right? So, yeah, most of the fixes that we apply our related thio rails. Not really, Ruby. I feel like Ruby has been very stable since Ruby, to to probably so many of the problems to find are related to rails. Yeah, I would say it's 90% rails, 10% Ruby. I know that there's a company called Matonga. I think they're in Germany and they run rails LTs, which is, you know, long lifetime or longtime support for rails, and I know that what they did recently is they added support for newer ruby versions for like rails to three and rails. 30 so one of the first things we recommend are clients is to use that use rails. LTs because they have applied security patches. They basically back ported security patches to their very old rails version and sometimes what you can do when you're using rails. LTs is upgrade ruby first and then start upgrading rails. This is cool. I haven't seen this before, but let's take a link in the show. Notes to rails LTs That's cool. Yeah, rails. LTs is like, you know, for anybody who is going to have a long upgrade process like that's the obvious. First thing to do is go to that because then you get your security stuff back boarded. But then I didn't even realize that added support for newer ruby versions, which is a big improvement because if there were things like, you know, gems or something, using an old syntax of ruby that you know the newer version doesn't support, then you have to go fork rails or, you know, do it yourself, and that's a pain in the butt. So if you can use rails, LTs that will save you a lot of time and effort and you can focus on upgrading your app instead of, you know, doing the fixes yourself because they've already done it. That's pretty cool. Yeah, and one service that we're working on that we're going to release in the next two weeks. Hopefully, by the time this episode is out, it will be out in the wild. Is rail service to keep your application up to date. So we're calling it the state updated service, where you can pay fast ruby that I owe a fixed amount per month, and we will keep track off all the changes in your application and compare it to rails master and what's coming in for real 61 So if you are running rail 60 and you had a terrible time, painful time trying to do it the idea is that you will proactively invest in your applications tech debt so that when rail 61 is released, then it will take you days instead of months to upgrade to the next version. That's awesome, because I could think, especially for your clients, that you helped them get up to date. When you help them get from like 4 to 6 or something like that. And you could just say Listen, but if you never had to worry about this again, we'll just take care of this for you. That that's the dream, right? Yeah, I think. I mean, we haven't launched it yet, but this is something we have done for some of our clients. And we thought we could package it in a nice way so people can take advantage of this. And at first we're probably going to do 90% of the work manually. It's gonna be an engineer behind the curtain doing all the work. But we plan Thio automate, hopefully, like, 50% off the work that goes into staying on top of our clients code base and the rails code base and basically trying to merge everything to see what is going to break. Well, I'm really excited for that. I think that's a really cool service. Yeah, I I would totally pay for that. Yeah, I agree. You know, the thing that you're like we maybe don't want a budget or time to go and and keep up to date. But paying you guys to help is ah, a small price to pay. I'm sure compared Thio. You know the struggle you end up having in the future. If you put it off and then you're like, Okay, we got upgrade. And, you know, like we've all heard the stories of get hub like forking rails and going down their path. And they're doing tremendous efforts getting back on the rails, master. And you know, no one wants to go down that path, and I think that's the stuff that probably should have existed a long time ago. You know, it seems like an obvious idea when you say that. So it's a good sign that, like these air things that will really help everybody in the community. I'm excited to see that. When do you think you'll have your first version of that coming out? Yeah, I think the first version. By the time this episode, Air will have been live for a couple weeks or one week for sure. The tricky part and the last part we're trying to determine as I where do we draw the line? You know, like it's different when you try to keep up with an application that has three dependencies. That's like the simplest scenario. Most of the applications do not fit that case. So where do you draw the line to say, Okay, let's say 50 models like If you have less than 50 models, you get the basic plan. If you have more than 50 you get the pro plan, and it's like a bunch of money. That's, you know, like like, where do you draw the line and how much do you charge those air? Like the questions that were trying to figure out at the moment of this recording? But we will have it online by the time this airs. It makes sense. There's so many open ended things there with how vastly different every application's gonna be S O. I'm sure that there's lots of lots of interesting things you have to figure out because, you know, will you have requirements of having a functional test suite and the C I or whatever is probably a thing you're thinking about. Two. Yeah, we will have a requirement that says you need to have a test suite. You need to have C I and you need to have at least 60% code coverage. Yeah, it seems reasonable. Yeah, I'll be really excited to see when that comes out. Do you have Ah, landing page or anything that we can share with people? I will share it with Andrew later. E will. I promise a zoo long as you get to us before the episode airs. Then we'll get in the show notes, and we'll make sure people had that way. Appreciate it. So can you get us like a list of resource is that people should kind of look at next if they're like, Okay, I really like what I've heard on this episode. Now I'm all charged up and I'm ready to upgrade my rails app. What should they do next? Other than, like, the stuff that we've already listed? Because that will be in the show notes. But what are some other things they could look at? Cool. Yeah, I have. Ah, A bunch of resource is over here. First, if they wanna download the Complete Guide to upgrade rails, that's R E book. They could go toe fast, ruby dot io and they'll get une email with the e book it covers from rails to three to rail 60 and also the process that we have been using with our client projects. Another one is the next rails, Jim the next rails. Jim is very useful for finding incompatibilities between your dependencies and the next version of rails. It is open source, and it will help you with things like dual booting as well. Like you said earlier, that you thought it was super complicated. But it's not. It's very simple, and next rails will do Ah, lot of the work for you. Another one that we use a lot is called rail stiff. So if you Google rail stiff, you can see the difference between different versions of rails in case you want to do it yourself. It's very super useful for us. And finally, rails Bump is another project that we use often, and you could basically submit your gem file dot lock. And it will tell you what dependencies are compatible with which version off rails. We are helping the maintainer with our sponsorship, and he is going to add more versions soon. I think right now it covers from 4 to 260 but by the time this airs, it should cover earlier versions of rails, which would be more useful for your listeners. Yeah, I think those are like the top four I can think off course. Like the ruby on rails. Official guides are super useful as well, and we use them a lot. Awesome. Thanks, Ernesto. So much for coming on and given us some some good learnings. There's a lot of great resource is in this episode, So make sure those listening you check the show notes because these air some great resources and these air all resource is I've used as well from just reading all of your content. So thanks for coming on the show and and teaching us about rails upgrades. All right. Thanks a lot for having me. Congratulations on the 100th episode. I hope you liked it. And also congratulations to Chris on his wedding. Thanks, man. Now, yeah, it's crazy to think, but yeah, it's exciting. Not married to the game anymore. Uh, Ernesto, thanks for coming on is really good to catch up. Andrew. Also shout out great interview skills. I just sat here and wanted to listen, So shout out. I'm working on it. Cool. Well, hopefully we'll see you again in person at some conference sometime in the future. Ernesto. But until then, Yes, we'll we'll have you on the next major milestone of the remote ruby podcast. Yeah, I guess I'll see you again. And number 200. Let's say Yeah. Sounds good to see you all later. All right. Bye. 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