Kirbin vs Chainsaw
*Yomi OOT
Epi
I believe Yomi is OoT as presented. Scaling to be so ridiculously above someone who's above someone who busted a mountain that almost reached the clouds that you have to hold back in order not to outright kill them certainly seems too good for the tier, and it's specifically the fact that Chainsaw compared the mountain favourably to the cloudline that does it for me. His response addresses all the other points by bringing up how his descriptors are vague and that he never quantified how good the feat he's scaling his character to be significantly above is, however the cloud line argument is more than just fancy descriptors. Such a feat, assuming the cloud height comparison is taken at face value, would fit in the low ends of the tier, considering the mass of the more cubic mountain but also that it wasn't completely destroyed, and then the fact that Yusuke then got stronger, to such a point where he was comparable with a character who Yomi had to hold back against to avoid outright killing? I consider this OoT as presented.
Guy
Same
Qaws' Judgements
Toriko vs Black Canary
Ultimate Routine vs Canary Cry quickdraw: Thinking is indeed faster than yelling
Toriko's AP/AOE vs Carnary's Durability/Agility: She fucking dies if a attack touches an atom of her body
How in-character it is to use the Ultimate Routine: I agree with Chainsaw that this incarnation of Toriko would not use the Ultimate Routine off the bat
Canary Cry's power: At no point did Kirbin counter the idea that Canary could one shot with her Cry so presumably he agrees that it would do so
So in the end Canary must dodge Toriko's attack and get close enough to shout. If Toriko lands even a single hit or destroys the bridge he wins. Based on the arguments I give the edge to Chainsaw (even if I do think Toriko's AOE is capable of hitting her)
Yomi vs Starjun
Heat Aura: I agree with Kirbin that Star's heat aura seems vastly superior to anything in YYH along with the few anti-feat presented
Diane vs Hulk
I will try and expand later but it's pretty late as of writing this so I'll just write my opinon. I think Chainsaw makes better points and I believe Diane has a better chance at winning than Hulk
*Chainsaw Wins 2-1
Guy's Judgements
Toriko vs Black Canary
Toriko won't open with whatever the fuck the thinking thing was called, so its irrelevant to my judgement. Chainsaw asserts Toriko will open with a melee attack because of his motivation, but kirbin provides scans of him mostly opening with ranged attacks. Chainsaw argues that because he has the same motivation as he had in the starjun fight, he would act the same way, which is go into melee range. Kirbin makes the much more logical seeming assertion that Toriko was in melee range that fight because it started in melee range. From this I'll assume Toriko will open with a ranged attack. I think this wins it for Toriko, since the shockwaves and aftermaths of Toriko's strikes are enough to kill Canary. However, Chainsaw puts forth the arguments that Canary could overpower his ranged attacks with her cry, and that the action taken for the cry is faster. These arguments are really small, but they're also not really responded to, other than Kirbin's scanless argument about canary cry not always being s tier. That could've been enough, but the lack of scans to accompany it mean I don't think it effectively covers the whole argument.
Black Canary Wins
Starjun vs Yomi
Starting with the physicals, I think a lot of the Yomi scaling argumentation didn't really go anywhere. Even assuming Chainsaw's scaling, Starjun should have competitive durability against him. I think that generally makes this argumentation useless, and will be focusing on the cutting and heat argumentation. And I think Kirbin wins on both ends. For cutting, kirbin demonstrates Yusuke being threatened by Sniper. Chainsaw attempts to counter this by saying the Chapter Black psychics have absolute powers, like the taboo dude's taboo power, but Sniper's power isn't absolute piercing its the bullseye thing. His power is absolutely relevant to his weapons being able to pierce Yusuke. I think I would've bought chainsaw just saying "but Sniper didn't actually pierce Yusuke" but he didn't make that argument at all, so I give this end to Kirbin. As for the heat argument, Chainsaw asserts that the forks and knives being sent at Starjun were small based on the scan of them coming at him, but I at the very least don't buy that all the forks and knives in that scan are the size of regular silverware. At minimum some of the forks and knives are larger than other ones. So I think Starjun should be able to harm Yomi, and as such he wins.
Starjun Wins
Diane vs Hulk
I honestly don't know what either side's win condition here is really. I guess Diane is trying to knock Hulk off the bridge, and Hulk is just trying to punch her a lot. I think Chainsaw does a good job calling out a lot of things Kirbin just kind of assumes we'll assume about Hulk because of previous Hulk argumentation. As argued I don't really think I can vote based on jump blitzing. As for Diane knocking Hulk off the bridge, I think I favor Kirbin here. Against people around Hulk's range like Thor or the mountain crushing blow he only gets knocked back a few feet, which isn't enough to get him off the bridge. Creation seems like mostly dead end argumentation then, since Chainsaw only seems to bring it up as useful after Hulk gets knocked off the bridge. Comparing physicals, Chainsaw says Diane is about 5x better than 400 foot mountain busting, and Hulk is probably around 2,300 foot mountain busting. Those numbers come out to basically the same. Diane's durability is questioned, and then Chainsaw gives an explanation for the feat he gave proving it. I have no idea if the feat is what he says it is, but Kirbin drops the argumentation, so that leaves Diane's durability as Chainsaw says, equal to or greater than Hulk. She also has a durability amp which doesn't really seem to have feats. So I'm gonna give an edge to Diane here. Hulk counteracts this with his stamina though. That leaves them basically even, except Diane has a mountain busting golem she can summon, the only clear advantage anyone has in this fight. For that reason, she wins. Its kinda sus that it was literally the last point of the debate, but I have literally no idea how I'd decide this fight otherwise so...
Diane Wins
Chainsaw wins 2-1
Chainsaw wins 2-0
Coconut vs Imade
Tatsumi vs Abomination
In this argument, the most important points are regarding the size of the mech that Tatsumi fights, and regarding the speed of Abomination's jump blitz, in that order.
So, about the size of the mech. You're both wrong but Coco is less wrong. Specifically, Coco's main rebuttal to the mech being explicitly visible from a great distance away is not good at all, arguing that it's metaphorical in contrast to the physical evidence provided by imade. However, Imade's rebuttal to Coco's argument about the art, outside of restating his size from the city scaling, involves arguing perspective and is extremely faulty. Coco is correct in that the mech simply looks tiny in the art. In this image, specifically, you can see the tracks of the feet do take up, as Coco points out, only the width of several buildings. The argument of perspective thus falls flat. The art seems to be consistently inconsistent; whenever the mech is shown from up close it looks small, but whenever it's shown from far away it looks big. Since Coco's feats to demonstrate the size of the mech are more relevant, as in they're the mech in combat and in direct comparison with the city, I'm more convinced by his arguments, if primarily on the fact that the mech does look small in all the situations where it's directly comparable with the buildings. As for the jump blitz argument, I do side solidly with Imade. The evidence from Wonder Man relies on something that needs far more context to prove that it's a blitz, and none of the Captain America scans claimed to show a bullet speed shield actually show this, while the Surfer scan does not show dodging.
The worst thing Coco did, however, was rely on the speed of the jump blitz in order to counter the halberd. Since I don't believe his evidence for the jump blitz being unreactable is that good, the lack of durability feats comparable to the halberd means that said halberd suddenly becomes far more relevant than Coco would have liked. However, it's important to note that it's primary threat comes through a prolonged battle in combination with Incursio. In a situation where the jump blitz is still a thing, if not unreactable, and where the mech is small, it suddenly becomes a lot less of a threat. It's good, but I don't believe it's good enough to overcome getting one shot by an opponent able to open up much faster than you. Had it been argued to be a one shot due to the lack of relevant durability feats, this would be a different story, but as is it's not enough to close the gap IMO.
Hence, due to the fact that I believe the mech is small combined with a present, if not unreactable, jump blitz, I give a majority to Abomination. A greater focus on the halberd could have saved this, though.
Abomination Wins
Ultron vs Escanor
Ultron's beam strength is the second most important part of this argument, but it's also the most interesting so let's start with that. While the evidence against Ultron's beams being strong is initially convincing, Coco is able to explain all but one antifeat away. The Doc Oc feat is poor due to the character motivation giving reason to hold back, and the Spider Woman scan is successfully argued to be due to Ultron being caught by surprise, especially considering he seems to think he can vapourise her and the like with his next shot. The most useful feat to argue against this is the Volcania feat, where a combination causes an explosion that is simply not impressive considering who it failed to kill. While it may be the case that it was produced from a clash between 2 attacks and is, thus, not directly representative of Ultron's beams, I don't believe it's nature as a combination attack is likely to lead to a weaker attack, and there is no justification given for why it would be weaker besides that.
In other words, it amounts to 1 feat on the Hulk level side, and another on the not Hulk level side. This part is really close, so while I will side with one that's simply because I have to choose one side, and thus the reasoning is going to be far more subjective here, but it's specifically the mention that the injury Hulk got from Ultron was particularly story significant to Hulk that leads me to think there's more narrative weight behind Ultron actually being Hulk level. And it's because of this that I ever so slightly side with Coco on this one, but it's only by a hair. As for Escanor's physicals, Imade provides far better scaling to show that he is as strong as he claims he is, and the argument then devolves into blunt damage vs piercing. In this, I side more with Imade, especially that it would be extremely strange to have a character that can take attacks from an edged weapon that can do the kinds of things in Escanor's feats but to then have that character be able to be injured to a much more severe degree, barring things like aiming for a KO without causing too much physical damage, by blunt force. That's not to say that piercing resistance necessarily means that there's blunt force resistance, but rather that one tends to imply the other. Clever that Imade specifically argued piercing to be better, by the way, otherwise Coco could have turned this around on him regarding his argument with Tatsumi's halberd.
And, as for the most important point, Ultron's fire resistance clearly has the potential to severely nerf him depending on whether or not it exists. The fact that his circuits explicitly are not immune to fire is certainly a benefit to Escanor, and one particular mistake by Coco lead to me giving this to Imade. Specifically, it's the use of the manhatten asteroid feat as evidence for the Human Torch's nova level attacks being really hot. Specifically, using an ambiguous feat that could be convincingly argued to be more due to force than heat was not a good move, and it costs Coco this point. While Ultron's fire resistance is impressive, he is fighting against the clock and, if he can't put down Escanor quick enough, he will lose due to his circuits overheating. This argument was very close, with the only clear win on an important point being Imade's justification for Escanor's physicals. And it's because of this that I'm going to give this one to Imade. The fact that Escanor's physicals were argued to be sufficient to stand up in the tier combined with the slight healing that was never countered and the fact that Ultron is fighting as much against the clock as he is against Escanor, due to the fire resistance point, means that Escanor is going to take majority.
Hulk vs Natsu
To start with the easy stuff, Imade doesn't seem to make a coherent point regarding Hulk's jump blitz. While it is true that the number used by Coco is an estimation, considering the evidence given for Hulk being way slower, I do agree that it is a very generous estimation. It could be faster, sure, but it's not likely to be, and the lack of a concrete number does not make this useless. In fact, the lack of a concrete number is why Coco estimated, and generously. The better way to argue against this would be to provide evidence that his estimation is vastly underestimating the speed that Hulk is shown to move at, rather than pointing at the fact that the opponent is estimating and thinking yourself done. The next most important thing is Hulk's heat resistance. While the feat of a miniature sun is impressive, the fact that the other feats are either vague, not impressive, or antifeats doesn't help Hulk's case here. The asphalt feat is not impressive without sufficient qualification, e.g. pointing out that Hulk is standing far deeper than asphalt generally reaches in a road, meaning something else was also melted, or pointing out it's consistency with more specificity than "it was melted far more than a little". While it could be far more impressive with that context, the arguments made for it are currently insufficient. The metal feat has nothing to indicate the metal was vapourised. Maybe a shot from inside the room showing no melted metal on the floor would have made a stronger argument rather than pointing out that it's creating an opening. The napalm feat, the strongest feat for Imade's case, is a grievous antifeat for this argument, and it's the lethal one here. The numbers for napalm line up far more with the concrete feats compared to the leap up to star level heat, and as such I'm far more inclined to give this point to Imade. A stronger argument here would have been to only provide the star feat, as then it would no longer look like an outlier without Imade providing the evidence. This leaves Natsu's physicals as the final important point, and it's a point in favour of Imade. The attempts to create ambiguity from Coco were countered through evidence that the composition of the War God is not that of a human, but rather more similar to that of a rock. The size of it speaks for itself, and there is scaling provided to show that the durability feats are valid for this version of Natsu, and that combined with a 3x physical boost is sufficient to survive for some period of time in cqc with Hulk.
In summary, this turns out to be a similar situation as Escanor vs Ultron. It all comes down to the fact that one character is racing against time and lacks the means to put the other down quick enough. The jump blitz is certainly a powerful option and will allow Hulk to keep up an incredible amount of pressure, however Natsu is capable of surviving for a decent period of time in melee, thanks to his physicals. This is a very close one, as the time Natsu can last is limited, but considering the disparity between the napalm feat and Natsu's heat compared to Hulk's strength compared to the Grey scaling is far greater, I think Hulk will lose before Natsu more often than not. win for imade
Qaws Judgement
Abomination vs Tatsumi
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Mech Size: From what I got the Mech is at least a few thousand feet in height. The length of one foot is the size of over dozens of decent sized houses and it can be seen from over 250 kilometers away by multiple normal people. However, nothing presented by Imade convinced me that the mech dwarfs Mt. Elbert multiple times over nor is it multiple times as wide
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Tatsumi's Striking Strength: Yeah its bad
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Abomination's jump speed: Tackling Wonder Man from the back just means you can't scale it without more context proving that WM was aware of it beforehand. I also agree with Imade that the SS scan doesn't really show bullet timing
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Abomination's skill vs Tatsumi's skill: Abomination is better at grappling I guess?
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BFR: Nothing either presented suggested that Abomination couldn't get out of the water in 10 seconds. So no BFR
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Halberd vs Abomination's piercing durability: Now as mentioned in greater detail in the next section, I don't think its correct to assume split durability without proof. However both people seemingly accepted that it was a different stat. Which, in that case, its debating about being bullet proof vs shockwaves that can cut Ice that can tank blows from superhumans. Which leaves a lot to be desired for Abomination
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Grappling Strength: I don't understand how hitting a mech applies to physical strength rather than striking strength. So no, I don't believe that Imade has proved that Tatsumi can flex his way out of a Full Nelson
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Tatsumi's Durability: As brought up Tatsumi was one shot by the Mecha and needed to have his armor evolve in order to survive. Presumably he could do the same to Abomination, but all he would need to do is keep up the pressure and its over
So it comes down to if Tatsumi can slice Abomination apart before Abomination puts him in a grapple hold and beats him to death. In total I favor Imade to win. The jump isn't fast enough to blitz Tatsumi and the halberd would inflict heavy damage on Abomination. Edge to Team Bleach
Ultron vs Escanor
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Heat Aura vs Ultron: At first I was backing Coconut considering that Ultron can rather easily withstand the heat aura of the Human Torch, but as Imade mentioned in both examples Coconut gave Johnny stated that he needed to raise his tempertures to that level. Since the Ultron scan doesn't mention that, you just have to assume that Johnny would use his higher level heat on a robot. Now that is a 100% resonable assumption, but there needs to be more evidence for a debate. As it stands I don't think Ultron will be insta-killed by Escanor's aura, but if he remains to close for to long it could happen
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Beam Power: I'm backing Coconut. When used in one on one situations with no extra context he can damage people with mountain level durability. While one beam won't take down Escanor they'll do something
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Ultron's Body vs SunBro's Axe: Well they didn't really get into it. I guess Ultron's armor is strong enough to roll with it?
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Piercing vs Blunt energy: In certain cases (such as most DC and Marvel characters) there is a notable blunt force vs piercing durability disparity for most characters. Where someone like Wonder Woman can deal with a punch that can crack a planet but can be shanked by a normal human. However IRL and in general fiction I don't think its correct to assume split durability without solid evidence for it. As such I have no reason to believe that Escanor would be murdered by Ultron's beams because his durability is limited to piercing attacks without in-universe evidence suggesting split durability. The big difference between this one and the last one is that with Abomination both seemingly admitted that he would have split durability while for here Imade contested it. Plus in general I just agree with Imade's arguments in regards to piercing just being better blunt force
So in the end I give Coconut the win. Ultron just needs to hang back and either BFR Escanor or just hammer him with blasts until he stops moving
Mindless Hulk vs Natsu
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Hulk vs Natsu's heat aura: The listed feats were basically: 1200F, something around 6000F, and one more feat that was discarded. Imade also brought up the 1200F anti-feat with the napalm. Factoring that in with the first one where Hulk yells its likely that he can't withstand Natsu's heat for a long peroid of time.
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Hulk's jumping speed: So like.... I don't get Imade's point here. The only idea I have is that he's saying that Hulk is fast enough to mean that his jumps aren't good enough to blitz with how things are equalized. But every single feat presented suggests that Hulk's jumps are hundreds of times faster than his normal speed. That or since Hulk's speed is vague, you therefore cannot scale his jumps to an exact number. Either way confuses me so I'm with Coconut here.
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Natsu's physicals: I agree with Imade that the War God should be comparable to a Mountain
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BFR: Hulk's jumps are to good to get BFR'ed
Hulk's blitz is a solid advantage that Natsu has no way to defend against. But the blitz will need to instantly kill Natsu before the heat aura can kill Hulk and before Natsu can escape and counter attack and I just don't beleive it can. In the end I give the edge to Imade due to comparable physicals and a damaging heat aura
Verdict: Imade 2-1
Minor thing
Btw in case anyone is wondering Gray uses anti-demon magic that would heavily nerf E.N.D. Natsu. But that was never brought up and Natsu fights other people who don't have that power so whatever
Wolf Judgements
Abomination vs Tatsumi
In my opinion this fight largely comes down to what I consider the least argued point. The halberd. The mech is also extremely important, but not as important.
The Mech - Honestly, it's clearly big at some times, and clearly small at some times. The scan where Tatsumi punches it, or seeing the tracks it lays, it is clearly not multi-mountain. However, the very far scans, it is clearly extremely large. Coco's argument about that being a metaphor did nothing to convince me. So in the end I think this is an art inconsistency that both people tried to argue their way, and I'm going to assume the mech is smaller because when Tatsumi is punching it, it's not that visibly large. I wasn't looking forward to have to make this judgement, and I've given it a lot of thought, but ultimately, if something is inconsistent and being scaled to, I believe we should use how it is presented while they are scaling to it.
The Halberd - The Halberd, as far as I am concerned, one shots Abomination. Being merely bulletproof is not good enough. If coconut had maybe argued about scaling his piercing to Hulk or them being nearly the same I might have bought it, but that doesn't really matter. The Jump Blitz - I think the jump boosts Abomination speed somewhat, I don't think it provably is unreactable. I also don't think it's a huge deal for two primarily melee fighters, however it does put a rather large dent in any win condition that involves Abomination fighting after the bridge is destroyed for obvious reasons. I could get into the nitty gritty of the Wonder Man scaling and similar but suffice to say I don't like any argument for a character that has his own feats relying on multiple layers of high end scaling.
The mountain moving antifeat was nice, however Imade was countered with the Abomination coconut is using being significantly stronger. I still think Abomination's strength could have been attacked, but I don't know if that was ultimately necessary regardless.
The Brief Skill Argument - Doesn't matter a ton, Abomination has been shown to have some level of training, but it's clearly not all that present or amazing. Tatsumi is more clearly shown to have training, but the degree is unknown, and the tournament feat could be better.
So let me summarize how I think the fight goes.
First action - Abomination either walks or jumps. As debated by both contestants, he would jump.
Second action - Tatsumi also begins to move forward, and will to my knowledge, use his Halberd.
Third action - Tatsumi, with the longer range that a halberd presents, and the short starting distance, would likely have a period in which he can hurt Abomination, but Abomination cannot hurt him. Tatsumi's offense is enough to physically move the mech a large distance, which, even without being mountain level, is a lot of force to concentrate on the small area of the Halberd. Abomination's feats for piercing don't cut it. There are arguments that could have saved him, but they weren't used.
So in my opinion, Abomination does not survive Tatsumi's main venue of attack, and Tatsumi is slightly more likely to hit Abomination first. So I very narrowly give this to Imade.
Escanor vs Ultron
So ultimately I believe this debate comes down to two main things. Ultron's heat resistance, and Ultron's beams. But first off, I'm going to make a point on piercing vs blunt durability.
The reason we, as a community, separate blunt and piercing durability is for two reasons.
- It is incredibly common for characters to have blunt durability but lack piercing durability. Spider-man is a notorious example, as is any peak human.
- The way piercing damage functions is that it's transferring physical force on a smaller surface. For example, if it takes 10 pounds of force in 1 inch to pierce through a sheet, and you hit it with 20 pounds over 5 inches, it won't pierce through. But if you were to hit it with 20 pounds over .5 inches, it would pierce through easily.
Piercing and blunt aren't entirely different, piercing is technically just a more concentrated form of blunt force. Now, it is possible for a character to have better piercing than blunt durability. However, for this to be the case, you would need to prove that their skin and flesh doesn't at least tangentially behave like normal flesh. To make a long point short, the kinetic energy of the axe is still being transferred into Escanor. It is merely over a smaller surface area. To assume the axe is exactly mountain busting, for the sake of an easier analogy, it doesn't matter if the axe is transferring it's force over 10 inches or .5 inches, it's still transferring mountain busting force. As for Ultron's beams, I think Ultron comes out on top for this. I buy the surprise argument, and the characterization argument, but I'm just going to state my personal interpretation that I think completely solves any inconsistency - a narrow beam is clearly much stronger than a wide beam. Using a narrow beam, attacking one person, he breaks Hulk's leg. Attacking multiple people, the beam is clearly much weaker. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the Volcania antifeat, but ultimately I'll side with Ultron because I don't think we can say to literally any degree of certainty how 'alien energies' interact with Volcania.
I don't think Ultron can meaningfully dodge Escanor with the feats shown.
Now, since I believe Ultron has ~mountain level focused beams, and that Escanor has more than twice his offense and durability, while also having a strong axe and heat aura, I am going to give the win to Escanor. I think both combatants are arguably durable enough that they will struggle to hurt each other, so Escanor's heat aura chipping at him over time will be what kills Ultron.
Natsu vs Hulk
Short and sweet, since 2/3, but I think Imade just argues the heat better, which means that he probably wins. I will say, Hulk's jump speed is very high, and coco was clearly highballing Hulk's run speed (and thus, lowballing his jumping speed) and with the antifeats provided Hulk's jumps would be even faster. The jump advantage would beat the heat alone, if not for the fact that Natsu has a 3x boost after destroying War God, who to my understanding is at least in the size of a small mountain. He wouldn't necessarily beat Hulk (I don't think Imade's argument ever relied on this, just surviving for the heat aura). It is possible that Hulk could be argued to survive the heat aura in addition to the physicals? Maybe, but if so, I am currently not convinced. I will say, I'd like a source on bricks decomposing, as everything I can find says that they melt. I also disagreed with Imade on some smaller points, but they're not important enough for me to think they should be brought up.
Imade Wins
Imade Wins 3-0
Mikhail vs Ame
Guy Judgement
First of all, props to both debaters for the formatting here, I think the argumentation presented here is way easier to follow than the quote response format most debaters opt for Superman vs Brutaal
Really solid work from both sides here. I'll go down my notes for both sides and see what I end up with here. I think I for the most part buy the Steppenwolf calc from Ame. There's a good amount to prove that its KE, and Mikhail kind of takes aim at some kind of oot argument for it, but never definitively pulls the trigger on it. What I do buy however, is Mikhail's refutation of the Atom calc. A punch to the head is definitely not the same force as what the calc uses. The Superman meteor feat is sort of defended, but neither side ever makes a real statement about where it is in terms of Brutaal's presented feats, so its hard to place on either side. Mikhail's argument about Superman's skill stands, the scene is pretty clearly intended to be a showing of skill, even if the choreography is sort of lacking on that end. That puts Brutaal and Superman in some nebulous level of strength, maybe slight edge Superman. Durability goes pretty solidly to Brutaal, and Superman holds a skill advantage That means it goes down to heat vision.
I think it isn't provable that Brutaal has heat resistance, considering it can't be proven his clones survive the heat vision. The inconsistency of Millerverse heat vision is slightly worrying, but I think there's enough evidence to show Superman has relevant heat resistance here. So Superman's heat vision would hurt Brutaal pretty bad, but Superman could take some heat vision. The tracking on Brutaal's heat vision, if it exists, is mostly irrelavant imo due to the Flash arrow antifeat from the same issue. What is relevant though is Brutaal's ability to disperse heat vision. So they're overall relatively even, with a very slight edge to Superman So overall Brutaal has an edge in durability, and Superman has an edge in heat vision and in skill, with strength being nebulously even. So I think Superman takes this narrowly Superman Wins
Blanque vs Ragnarok This debate is decided for me by some relatively small points, but I think they're the most convincing arguments. First of all, Blanque's durability is provably pretty good. Based on this debate I believe he could tank anything outside of Ragnarok's lightning with little issue. The lightning itself is where the clash comes in. Ame makes a few very convincing assertions about the lightning. In his first response, he demonstrates the lightning largely does ke damage, which Mikhail never really responds to. I'm not sure I'm completely convinced by this argument, but its notable. The second thing Ame brings up, which ultimately convinced me, was the fact that Ragnarok doesn't always open with lightning. Mikhail never really provided scans to suggest Ragnarok does open with lightning. He shows Ragnarok would use a hammer throw, but the evidence for Blanque stopping that is there. Therefore, I don't think Ragnarok would open with lightning, and I think Blanque's offense is good enough to take down Ragnarok. Blanque wins
Mimic vs Wraith
Off the bat, I'm mostly buying both of Ame's Wraith calcs. Mikhail points out that the mountains aren't completely busted, but its still a pretty good feat. So Wraith is pretty strong and durable. I think his heat vision is pretty much not relevant to Mimic, so I'll be ignoring that. So Wraith wins this fight by punching a lot, and Mimic wins with claws. I think I generally side with Ame in terms of Mimic's scaling feats, and I don't think Cyclops' optic beams are actually red sun radiation. With that in mind, I think Wraith's win condition is easier to pull off, so I'm going to give the win to him Wraith Wins Ame wins 2-1
Epi Judgements
Brutaal vs Superman
There's 3 important areas of this fight, Supe's physicals, Brutaal's physicals, and the argument over heat vision. While skill does come up as a consistent idea, the best skill feat that Supes has would not allow a victory under the scenario Ame presents, so while it could be important as a tie breaker, it wouldn't be enough to reverse a complete stomp otherwise.
So, to start with the most clear cut, Brutaal's strength is a handy victory for Mik. In particular, he consistently brings up the disparity between the feats used to calc Atom's durability and the instances of Brutaal KOing him. Mik is entirely correct when he talks about how the force of the rocks pushing against Atom is not comparable to a fist to the face, as the latter only needs to transmit enough momentum into Atom's brain to KO him. The use of the feat where Brutaal lifts a rocket is similarly countered, in addition to pointing out some ambiguity. With this, the strength that I'll consider Brutaal to have is only going to be vaguely mountain level, as per the very first feat given. Regarding the Steppenwolf calc, I'm far more torn. While it is the case that the energy appears to tear apart Brutaal's armour, it's also the case that the energy acts in a strange way. While I don't believe it's all kinetic energy, there is certainly some portion of it that is. It can also appear very underhanded when the assumptions you make just so happen to put your character at the top of the tier, but not over it. For this reason, Mik is correct to think it's all too convenient. A better way to handle the calc would be if Ame instead gave a range of numbers from a range of assumptions, explaining a lowball and highball, then explaining what the equation is, why you're using it, and how it specifically relates to the feat, and then giving the range based on those assumptions. This would do much to mitigate the deceitful appearance of the calcs, although they are improved drastically from the last round. This would also help with the strength calcs, as per the misunderstanding about what precisely Ame did with the Atom calc. But, either way, it's lucky that Ame linked scans of some (presumably) weaker clones taking hits from people asserted to be vaguely comparable to Brutaal. This puts his durability at vaguely mountain level, just like his offense.
Now, onto Superman. His primary strength feat is the asteroid feat, and it's quite easy to lowball. While Ame made some poor points, he's correct on one very important point in particular: there is no indication Superman stopped the energy of the asteroid. The fact that he's in front of the asteroid does necessarily mean he's stopping some of it with his punches, but how much is unknown and Ame rightfully points out it's certainly not going to be all of it, as the rubble continues to move past Superman in the scan. I do think Ame is being a bit unfair where he lowballs the number of strikes, but even going with 3 it doesn't make much of a difference. As for Supe's durability, the vast majority of the scaling is from Superman to some kryptonians being stronger, and then using that to show Superman's durability. This would be valid were it not for the fact that I don't side with Mik on the point of Superman's strength, as I believe Lara is stronger than most kryptonians and I don't believe Ame's attempts to cast doubt on the Batman feat. While the art does appear as Ame describes, the narrative box is clearly saying that the kryptonians in general (Mik did counter the point of the specific kryptonian with this, btw), the narration makes it clear what is intended to be going on: Superman is outmatched physically but not mentally. Lara is a similar situation where it is repeatedly shown that kryptonians get weaker as they age, however the fact that she's half amazonian does bring this into question somewhat. That said, considering that there is evidence that Wonder Woman is strong, from the earthquake sex feat, I don't believe the feats involving her will be worse than the other kryptonians. Based on this feat, Superman has enough durability to take his own vaguely Manhatten level (maybe) punches for hours. That said, the nuke antifeat is certainly telling and the qualities of it are quite clear. Since it's impossible to have both, it appears the kryptonian scaling is more consistent across the story, so I'll go with that. Now that that's done, let's move onto heat vision. This is really the make it or break it argument, as it may potentially allow one side to do consistent and considerable damage to the other over range. To start with Brutaal, the temperature of his heat vision is never called into question, but it's supposed tracking nature is. 2 main things convinced me that they're not as good at tracking, if they track at all, as Ame might claim. First, the scaling from the Flash was shown to be invalid through the use of an antifeat from the same issue. While it may be the case that the Flash gets faster as the series progresses, the fact that it's the same issue makes this counter useless. Second is Mik's use of the dinner table feat, as that shows that the chaotic nature of the beams is not necessarily them tracking, but could just be how they move.
As for Superman, his heat vision was far more contested. It's heat is certainly at the level needed to melt a gun, or blow up a plane, but not any higher than that. The inconsistency in the heat vision is not a good point, either, as it's rightfully pointed out that the heat isn't one given value. I don't buy the argument that the gun feat is a midpoint, though. This does put the vision at a respectable level, although it's nothing compared to the heat that Brutaal's has. And, finally, the heat resistance. I agree with Mik that the clones are not shown tanking the heat vision of other clones, so using this as the only heat resistance feat is a bad move on Ame's part. Were it the case that there's a limited number of clones, or those particular clones are shown just fine in the next scan, it would be far more effective to show that context rather than linking a seemingly unrelated scan with no explanation, where there's a few clones standing around looking fine, as otherwise the art makes it clear that the clones were not capable of taking it. This means that Brutaal was not successfully argued to have significant heat resistance in this debate.
Superman's heat resistance relied a lot on scaling from kryptonians, however there's one good feat that goes relatively uncontested, that being the Red Son feat. The argument about the Red Son heat vision being unuseable because it's woc and, supposedly, inconsistent is not a good one, as the heat vision is established to be controllable, and there's no explicit antifeats for the vision. Hence, Superman is likely going to be able to take some hits from Brutaal's heat vision. As for the skill, the scaling to Batman does appear to be valid. While the art does show one thing, the text makes it clear what is intended, and the fact that one of the kryptonians was weaker does not mean that the other ones were, and Batman was referring to them as a whole. This means Superman can fight enemies who are superior in all the important physicals. While the supposed antifeats for Brutaal were given context to show they aren't nearly as bad as they were claimed, it's still not as impressive as Superman's feat.
Because of these factors, I give a very slight majority to Superman. While I do believe Brutaal is absolutely superior in physical stats, the fact that Superman is better able to damage Brutaal with his heat vision in combination with being a superior fighter. It's specifically his ability in close quarters combined with Brutaal's lack of comparable skill that will allow him to use the heat vision to such a point where he can take out Brutaal, as otherwise he'd be unable to face Brutaal's superior physicals.
Ragnarok vs Blanque
The three most important aspects of this fight are whether or not Blanque can control Ragnarok's mind, whether he can read it, and whether or not he can block the lightning or hammer throw. In particular, Ragnarok here relies on a blitz of either lightning (hah!) or a hammer throw in order to secure victory. All of these 3 factors tie into whether or not Ragnarok could potentially succeed with this method or not.
So let's start off with the elephant in the room: Ragnarok's TP resist. The closest thing we have for resistance is Thor's resistance, and assuming Ragnarok has some quantity of that, too, relying on a statement that he has all the resolve of Thor, and some feats that imply godhood resists mental attacks. However, Ame correctly points out that this does not necessarily apply to Ragnarok, and it would be rather strange to assume it did. The distinct personalities and the fact that Ragnarok is rather deranged helps to distinguish him from Thor, so on this issue I side more with Ame.
That itself will be a major stumbling block for Ragnarok. Considering Ame successfully asserts his scaling with Superman, in particular the fact that Blanque can still read his mind despite shielding and distractions, does a lot to show that even assuming mental resistance from Ragnarok, he can likely have his mind read without much issue. There is more of an issue with mind control. There is reason to believe one of the characters who was mind controlled was vulnerable because of some specific weakness, because of Superman's dialogue, and there's no evidence given of Superman underestimating Blanque there. Additionally, Ragnarok does demonstrably have some decent willpower, so I doubt that Blanque will simply be able to mind control Ragnarok, considering Ame argued some level of psychic resistance would allow a character to resist this. Similarly, I doubt that the scan with the Chinese Superman is necessarily mind control. Mind reading? Sure, but mind control is making an assumption that I don't think is backed up. Hence, I think Blanque will be able to read Ragnarok's mind, but will not be able to control it.
As a supplementary issue, Ame consistently failed to provide evidence of combat applicable mind reading, that is to say predicting what the opponent would do based on what they're thinking. While it is the case that Blanque can read Ragnarok's mind, he never seems to use the information gleaned in a combat scenario. Similarly, while Blanque can read Superman's thoughts, he doesn't seem to use this to dodge or block several attacks. Hence, I agree with Mik that Blanque is less likely to use the opponent's thoughts to predict what they'll do immediately following, but it's not impossible. So, as for Blanque's ability to block the assumed initial blitz from Ragnarok, he certainly has the capability to do so. While there is some debate as to the power of Blanque's off the cuff TK attacks and defences, an assumption of a longer timeframe is not sufficient to antiwank them. The best feats to use against this are the feats mid battle, which do show a lesser ability to use the TK while under pressure, but that will be significantly more pressure than Blanque starts the round under. Combine that with the fact that Blanque might use his mind reading in a useful manner, I think it's clear that Blanque has the capability to output some strong offence off the cuff, sufficient to block all of Ragnarok's attacks, in particular considering one of his lightning feats involves him not destroying some cars. It becomes, therefore, more a question of whether he'll be able to react to Ragnarok's presumed blitz. This, however, was never brought up and it seemed implied that it is primarily Blanque's mind reading that would provide him his main capability to counter these attacks.
The strength of the lightning and it's ability to one shot is also briefly brought up, as there are apparently feats where the lightning doesn't injure characters that should be injured, but I think the prevalence of high street tier feats combined with a lack of non-shielded durability for Blanque means that both the lightning and the hammer throw would be able to end it if they hit Blanque's body proper.
It's precisely because of that last point that I'm going to give majority to Ragnarok. It's precisely because, while Blanque would likely be able to block any attack with the rubble of the bridge, it's a question of whether he'll be able to do so in time to block either the lightning or the hammer. As Blanque lacks explicit feats of using his mindreading to act as precog, I think the actual margin of victory is quite wide, however it was relatively close on the debate end.
Wraith vs Mimic
This one will be a bit quicker than the others, as I've already decided 2/3 in Mik's favour. However, there are several areas of importance here, first and formost the assertion that Cyclops's eye beams are the equivilent of red sun radiation.
I don't believe this is accurate, primarily because of the argument regarding the specific frequency necessary. The reasoning given to justify Supe's vision not being red sunlight because it has in between steps just doesn't counter the point at hand, that being red sunlight hurts because of a specific frequency, something more specific than simply red. Hence, I don't buy the argument that Mimic's optic beams would have anywhere near the effect claimed.
An issue I jumped over in this previous point is, also, one of alternate universes. This was brought up as a counter to the cyclops argument, as well as scaling for Mimic's strength, and I mostly side with Mik on this one. While it is the case that there are some differences between alt universes, there is no reason to believe something is different from what we know to be the norm until it's proven that way. Especially with a lack of contradicting evidence, simply the fact that something is an alternate universe is not enough to claim the feat is baseless. In other words, I agree that Mimic is likely below Hulk level, but is not quite up to snuff. And this ties into the argument about Wraith's strength. Here we see another example of Ame's calcs appearing untrustworthy, in part due to poor presentation, and in part to strengthen the argument that Wraith is weaker than he's let on to be. The antifeat with Batman is particularly helpful for this, as you have a suit only explicitly made for stealth that seemingly allows Batman to take hits from a purportedly multi mountain character. However, his durability seems to be exactly what it's purported to be.
While on that topic, too, Mik misunderstands the point of Wraith's electromagnetic manipulation: it's not manipulation of metal, but he can affect the magnetic fields to mess with it. While asking whether or not it's in character to use is valid, it is at the very least a useful tool against one of Mimic's main tools.
That said, while the antifeat involving Batman seems rather damning, Wraith has more feats from his fight with Superman, and there seems to be more narrative weight towards him being effectively Superman but with more experience with his powers. While the calc is rightfully called into question, if you want to demonstrate a lower level of strength than proposed, you'd need to show more than just one instance when the opponent has provided more. It is, however, fair to say that Wraith may not always be able to hit with his full strength. Now, on to copying. There is a bit of a catch 22 set up here, if Mimic can copy Wraith, then he's vulnerable to the kryptonite equivilent, and if he cannot then he has to make do without Wraith's powers. The chances don't change much with either of them, however.
Wraith will also be able to disrupt Mimic if he chooses to enter his metal form. The ability is not metal manipulation, but rather destabilisation. This would likely prove quite effective against Mimic, especially considering he apparently has to leave the form in order to use his healing factor. This takes away a large part of Mimic's toolset, and his preferred form for fighting.
And, as for the speed of the healing factor, it seems far quicker than Ame would like to let on. In particular, talking is often a very poor way of judging timing in comics, and as such can't be used to say the healing is slow. Were it the case that the delay was narratively relevant, then it would be different, however it doesn't seem to have been made a big deal of. Finally, there's the heat vision. WHile I initially thought this would be unimportant, it turns out that this is the deciding factor for me. In particular, the combination of all meaningful heat resistance feats apparently being done in either his metal form, which I believe will be a liability, or in some form of buffed state, this makes Wraith's rather shoddily argued 5000 degree heat vision the critical factor. In other words, outside of the metal form, Mimic would likely be unable to withstand the heat vision, leaving Wraith with a consistent way to deal damage to Mimic.
These 2 seemed far more evenly matched than I initally thought they would be, primarily through the scaling for Mimic showing he's not exactly a slouch in the physicals department, however the combination of likely better physicals with the heat vision, allowing Wraith to output better damage at all ranges. While the healing factor does mitigate this quite a bit, this means the fight will always be in a favourable situation. Mimic would be able to run away in order to heal himself up, as he's far faster in terms of travel speed, however when actually in combat he has far fewer options than Wraith. It's simply a matter of time, it appears, before Wraith either gets a KO or an OoB.
Mikhail wins 2-1
Wolf Judgement
Brutaal vs Superman
On the subject of calcs - I like calcs. I think having a numerical, easy to express way of defining how good a feat is is incredibly useful. This can range from seeing how fast an attack is, to the current usage of using numbers to express force.
Here's where I disagree with both Mik and Ame. I think calcs should be treated as a representation of an interpretation of a feat. There is a pretense of them being 'objective' that has been addressed, and I don't think they should be thought of that way by anyone. Now, with Ame, the problem that occurs with this is that when he calcs around a specific interpretation, when the interpretation goes out the window, so does the calc. Ame's main goal is to provide a reasonable estimation for his feats, and I think he does that fairly well, but the problem is that, inevitably and without fail, the best way to undermine an opponent who is hypothetically superior to you is to question the interpretation of their primary feats.
Like Epi said, and how I've used it, this is why I think the range method is the best. I'm not claiming it doesn't have its flaws, but I think people definitely consider it fairer. Or other possible representations for assumptions. Regarding specific calcs - I don't buy the atom calc because I don't agree with the feat itself. I've gone on record saying that I think a punch to the chin and force being applied over your back can't be treated at all the same. The calc itself for how durable Atom's back would be is probably fine.
This is also why I disagree with the assertion " (as if he can hit with enough force to level a mountain, his arm can take enough force to level a mountain)."
On the Steppenwolf calc, I have a few problems. I think the blast is clearly much larger than Italy, I don't think we can clearly say how the blast destroys matter, I think the timeframe of the blast becoming small and the timeframe of the blast being country sized is a lot different, putting another issue on the calc.
I think the Superman nuke feat is clearly him suffering from more than just the physical force of it. In my experience, punching people really hard doesn't turn them into skeletons. My opinion on Brutaal's ability to track is a lot less, with the arrow antifeat, but it would probably be able to hit Superman, who in my opinion would be able to take it.
The skill feat is clearly supposed to be that, a skill feat. Points about him seeming stronger than them I disagree with when he's specifically targeting weak points. I could explain more on my opinions on the fight, but it would require me picking out each panel. And Superman also seems very durable relative to his own striking, but his striking was not very well defended in my opinion.
So both will probably be hit by heat vision, Brutaal has at least city level durability, with mountain ish striking, inferior heat durability in my eyes, with Superman having lesser striking, but the ability to hurt Brutaal, and the skill to overwhelm him, with his heat vision being a significant problem. I would give Ame more points on the mountain striking, but as he said in his debate with kerd, you can lowball that so much that it is useless in a vacuum. Heat vision is clearly controllable to an incredibly precise degree, so I don't think it not always being at peak potential is a better explanation than inconsistency.
Superman wins
Mimic vs Wraith
Hurting Professor Hulk is clearly good, you can't just take his objective feats when he primarily relies on scaling, he's a continuation of classic Hulk. Professor Hulk would likely thrash Classic Hulk. I think Mimic scaling to characters around Hulk's level is fair, and that with the feat like the Professor Hulk vs Havoc feat as argued, could hurt characters of this tier. I think that Mimic would, if pressed, copy Wraith's powers, and would be able to heal from a strike - Mimic has an abundance of travel speed, a getaway is easy. I also think that, with feats shown, Mimic would be fight with the heat vision. I still think I buy Wraith's physicals from the mountain feat, but I have a lot of trouble discounting the Batman antifeat when Ame is so incredibly harsh in regards to scaling to anyone that doesn't have feats of their own. Mimic should be able to know the general location of Wraith, and his travel speed is great enough that he can control the means of engagement, regardless of invisibility. I think the red sun cyclops argument was a good attempt, but ultimately I don't agree with it, because Superman's heat vision is also red solar energy, yet provably does not harm Superman. Ultimately I think the argument comes down to if Mimic can copy Wraith, giving him the physicals he needs to generally contend evenly, which means he can utilize his other advantages. I think Mimic would be able to, if pressed by superior physicals, due to his ability to create a fast getaway. Thus, I give Mimic the win.
Mimic Wins
Ragnarok vs Blanque
I think Blanque is provably pretty durable, at least in relation to Ragnarok. However, I don't think he could block the lightning. I think Ragnarok scaling to Thor is fair. Also Blanque's telepathy isn't good. Having Thor's resolve is enough. I think a hammer throw is more likely than lightning, giving Blanque the time he needs to be able to generate the force to harm Ragnarok significantly. I do not think Blanque can block the lightning, or predict it, so it's entirely up to whether Ragnarok opens with lightning or a throw, and I this range, I think it would be a throw, giving Blanque the win.
Mikhail Wins 2-1
Mikhail Wins 2-1
Verlux vs Ken
Wolf Judgements
Ah Ghou vs Cao Cao So the whole argument is basically just about 'would Ah Gou activate Monochrome.' I think the feats provided show that in a situation he knew from advance would be life or death, so Cao Cao goes splat. Tian vs Izayoi Again, the entire argument comes down to a monochrome interaction. I think there is evidence that both would be activated quickly to immediately, however I think Tian would likely be able to resist Monochrome being suppressed, due to Monochrome repelling a weaker Monochrome, but I also think it wouldn't completely nullify Izayoi's gift. So treating the battle as one of physicals, with Izayoi being halved, I think Tian with the blood spear would be able to reliable defeat Izayoi. Huang Long vs Chi Long So again, character arguments from a series I know nothing about, always my favorite. I think the lightning's heat, assuming it is hot, as demonstrated, would be able to harm him, but that depends on the argument of whether the lightning is realistic or has physical properties, or different heat properties, but I do really like the countering of how electricity affects neurons in an inorganic body. However I think Verlux showing that he needs to consume blood is some evidence of inner workings, and therefore electricity would likely damage something important. I'm really not certain on the opening with lightning in-character argument, but I'll tenously give it to Verlux.
Qaws Judgements
Tian vs Izayoi
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Monochrome vs Gifts: Monochrome surpress powers while Izayoi's power nullfies them and is passive. Monochrome just doesn't have the showings to say its anything more than power surpression while Izayoi's is nullification. So I agree that it would cancel Monochrome. Verlux's example is more akin to "I can slowly drain speed away vs instantly canceling all momentum" than the Vector stuff
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Izayoi's Durability: Verlux has conviced me that the Bloodspear is sharp enough and strong enough to shank Izayoi
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Izayoi's Punches: There's multiple quotes and in-universe narration saying that Izayoi can shatter a mountain with his punches. This is pretty clear cut to me Tian's Monochrome-less durability: I'm with He-Man here. The feat show cased by Xiong enough enough to say that it being focused into needles would be comparable to the ability to shatter a mountain. Tian's blunt force durability should still be good enough to roll with the damage if only due to strength scaling.
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Spear Speed vs Izayoi: The issue here is that like... speed is equalized. Meaning that Izayoi has nothing to say he can dodge the spear besides the stated speed stats
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BFR: If the bridge is destroyed then Izayoi seems stuck. He-Man didn't even give a token response about how he could get out of the water
Overall I do agree that there are ways for Tian to win. Via destroying the bridge or shanking Izayoi, while Izayoi just needs to punch Tian a few times. Overall it is close, but I felt that He-Man won more of the debate.
Ah Gou vs Cao Cao
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Cao Cao's durability: https://i.imgur.com/RuOAB0Q.jpg
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Ah Gou using Monochrome: I agree with Verlux that Ah Gou will likely use monochrome from the bat. Or at least if he gets pressed to any degree
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Cao Cao's skill: Cao Cao is indeed more skilled than Gou and would likely win a standard fight
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Mutated Form of Nothingness: No counters given to it saving Ah Gou. Just saying that Cao Cao could win 2 vs 1 still
Cao Cao dies as soon as Monochrome is activated and if pressured I see no reason why Gou would not use it. I give Verlux the win here
Huang Long vs Chi Long
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In-Character Lightning Range spam: I agree with He-Man. Despite a willingness to use ranged, the Yellow Dragon likes to rush for melee hits
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Lightning working on the Red Dragon: While I'm not one to go this far into lightning, both debaters accpeted this so whatever. I agree with He-Man. Verlux didn't really show that Chi Long isn't just a crystal being amped by a magic god soul. However he did show that the lightning can damage and effect the very crystals that make up Chi's body
So in the end it mostly falls down to how willing Huang is to enter CQC with Chi. I feel that based on the evidence they would likely engage in melee combat which would favor the Red Dragon. So edge to He-Man
Verdict: He-Man with a 2-1 win
Minor thing
He-Man says this in his Second Response: "after being proven wrong on this point my opponent backpedals to a more tenable position. This speaks for itself."
But He-Man did the exact same thing. In his first comment he responds that Izayoi can just tank through/deal with the bloodspear due to his piercing durability feat. But when proven wrong he changes it to "Izayoi can just avoid the spear". He critizes Verlux for the same tactic he did which is a poor move (espically since it happens in the same response). -10 points for Gryffindor He-Man
Guy Judgements
Tian vs Izaoyi
Ken cedes some really important ground in his final response of this debate. Firstly, on the issue of the blood spear he fails to prove that Izayoi would be able to resist it, as the only feat given for Izayoi's piercing is stopping something that could pierce mountains. Verlux rightfully points out busting half a mountain is better than piercing a mountain, which Ken never really responds to. The second most important thing comes down to Monochrome. Ken does well to rebutt many of Verlux's instances of Monochrome negating abilities, but fails to rebutt what I think is the most convincing scan showing this, Bai Yu's Aura of Origin being unusable in monochrome. Because of this,both of Verlux's win conditions stand, and he wins this debate
Tian Wins
Ah Gou vs Cao Cao
This is a really weird debate to judge. The core arguments are as follows. Verlux argues that Ah Gou will activate Monochrome, which would kill Cao Cao. Ken argues that Ah Gou often doesn't open with Monochrome, and if he doesn't Cao Cao can just kill him. I think these arguments clash pretty interestingly, but in a way that wasn't pursued at all. Ken just kind of threw out the fact that Cao Cao would kill Ah Gou in a few hits, and Verlux never contested it, which is a shame because I think the argument that Ah Gou would activate Monochrome at least before dying is a strong one, and could have won Verlux this debate. Unfortunately it wasn't argued, and as such I have to judge based on what's here. not meYesterday at 3:27 PM This argument is actually really hard to follow, because Verlux fudges his numbers sort of by counting times Ah Gou didn't use Monochrome with reason as times he did use it. So I just did the counting myself. Since Verlux had the chance to respond to all of Ken's initial claims, I count all of them he didn't contest. I buy all of his contests on times he didn't use Monochrome, and removed all of them from the pool. I'm ignoring all of the ones brought up by Ken in his second response because they're mostly fodder. Zi Yu is the only one that may count, however Verlux argues Ah Gou won't use it against people he isn't trying to kill, and he explicitly isn't trying to kill Zi Yu. So here's the count. Shi Xing(Y), Zhui Ri(Y), Sage King 2(N), Zhui Ri 2(N), Tian(Y), Siwang(Y), Bu Nu(N), Bai Yu(N), Nothingness(N), shitty kid(N), Sage King 3(N), Chi Long(Y), Tian(Y), Gods Realm Siege(Y). Which is 7/14.
Draw
Huang Long vs Chi Long
Not a ton to cover here. Ken argues that Chi Long will beat Huang Long in close combat and that Huang Long will enter close combat regularly. The latter is pretty solidly disproven by Verlux. This means as long as Huang Long's lightning can affect Chi Long he can win. I think the argument that Chi Long has neurological pathways is kind of ridiculous, but I buy the fact that lightning has a heat component to it, because that's just a fact. Chi Long has no demonstrable resistance to that, and as such should be harmed by Huang Long's lightning Huang Long wins Verlux wins 2-1-0
Verlux Wins 2-1