Created
November 2, 2013 21:36
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<imkingdavid> EX|away: i think one of the main reasons for install/enable/disable/uninstall was to rename "purge". But if we have "uninstall" it doesn't make sense to not have "install" | |
<EX|away> uninstall makes sense to me without having install | |
<EX|away> this should be in an RFC to have others who are not strictly developers comment on | |
<imkingdavid> alright, i'll make one | |
<-> EX|away is now known as EXreaction | |
<imkingdavid> https://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=44881 | |
<EXreaction> ty | |
<naderman> replied | |
<naderman> I disagree with both changes | |
<nickvergessen> will reply i disagree with anderman in both | |
<nickvergessen> thats my experience as a support team member and mod author | |
<naderman> you even introduced two different modes in the acp | |
<naderman> that both do exactly the same thing ?_? | |
<naderman> wtf | |
<nickvergessen> because we have pre_enable | |
<naderman> ? | |
<naderman> that should be called in both cases? | |
<imkingdavid> the fact that enable performs both installation and enabling the extension is a design flaw. running migrations should be a separate action from enabling the extension to be recognized by the rest of the software | |
<nickvergessen> and i can not get the state in the actual enable step anymore, when it needs to refresh | |
<naderman> imkingdavid: I disagree, you can simply run migrations before actually enabling? | |
<imkingdavid> well, install performs enable, but it's two separate actions | |
<EXreaction> enable performs install when not installed basically | |
<naderman> why does a user have to understand there are two things happening | |
<EXreaction> the user only cares that it's working, not what's going on to make it work | |
<naderman> exactly | |
<naderman> maybe two separate steps may seem logical to a developer | |
<naderman> but to a user it should just be one click on "make this damn thing work" | |
<naderman> aka enable | |
<nickvergessen> remove - Packages installed are removed (Does NOT include configuration files) | |
<nickvergessen> purge - Purge is identical to remove except that packages are removed and purged. Purge meaning that any configuration files are deleted too. | |
<imkingdavid> but it should be called "install" because that is what happening | |
<nickvergessen> lol read it , the description is even the wrong way round | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: no? | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: in this case config files == schema changes | |
<naderman> we have no "remove" | |
<naderman> currently anyway | |
<naderman> imkingdavid: not necessarily | |
<naderman> if you disabled an extension | |
<naderman> deleted its files | |
<naderman> and then put the files back | |
<EXreaction> imkingdavid, the user doesn't need to know that it's installing or what it's doing | |
<naderman> then you're enabling not installing? | |
<naderman> really | |
<naderman> the user should not need to "install" anything | |
<naderman> he should just enable it when he wants it to be enabled | |
<imkingdavid> naderman: you never uninstaled, so yes, you're enabling | |
<naderman> this some kind of windows concept | |
<naderman> installing or uninstalling is not something we do at all | |
<naderman> we enable or disable extensions | |
<nickvergessen> naderman: but users want to do it | |
<nickvergessen> really | |
<naderman> you need to run migrations on enable even if you only disabled them | |
<naderman> since you may have updated the extension | |
<nickvergessen> you create tones of support requests with that | |
<naderman> and new migrations could be there | |
<nickvergessen> "how do i uninstall that stuff" | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: no I disagree | |
<naderman> everyone will understand that if you want to turn something on | |
<nickvergessen> trust me | |
<naderman> you click on the enable button | |
<naderman> trust me | |
<naderman> ... | |
<nickvergessen> i answered 2k support requests for my mods | |
<nickvergessen> people are like that | |
<naderman> none of thos related to this issue | |
<naderman> people understand "enable" means "enable" | |
<nickvergessen> yes | |
<naderman> what do you expect people to ask? | |
<EXreaction> the separation of install/enable is looking at it from the old 3.0 style of modifications, which did have to be separately installed/enabled | |
<nickvergessen> but not that purge is uninstall | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: ok that terminology we can discuss | |
<naderman> but we're at install/enable now | |
<naderman> I agree entirely with EXreaction | |
<EXreaction> purge may be confusing or too technical for users | |
<naderman> fair enough | |
<naderman> that we can rename | |
<naderman> but I really don't want an "install" | |
<EXreaction> we can either make sure it's described or find a better name for it | |
<nickvergessen> okay | |
<nickvergessen> so | |
<nickvergessen> enable disable and uninstall? | |
<naderman> well I would have used something like "Purge from database" in lang files | |
<nickvergessen> and later we add delete which will then also delete any files | |
<naderman> which is perfectly clear I think? | |
<EXreaction> naderman, also most users I think are not sure what a "database" is :P | |
<naderman> EXreaction: "Purge data"? | |
<nickvergessen> naderman: purge from db is wrong | |
<naderman> "Purge extension data"? | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: that's what it does though? | |
<imkingdavid> i don't like using the word "purge" here I think | |
<nickvergessen> on unisntall i would also remove the image files from the gallery | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: ah ok | |
<naderman> then | |
<naderman> "Purge extension data" works | |
<naderman> imkingdavid: what would you prefer | |
<nickvergessen> then people wonder whether they need to purge + disable | |
<nickvergessen> :P | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: the UI should make that clear | |
<imkingdavid> not sure | |
<naderman> and if people disable first and then purge, nothing bad happens anyway | |
<naderman> and if they purge it'll clearly not be disablable anymore | |
<EXreaction> if they hit purge it should give a full and clear explaination of what's going to happen | |
<naderman> so that'll be clear too | |
<naderman> EXreaction: yes | |
<naderman> but I would not label the button just "purge" anyway | |
<EXreaction> that's the most important thing | |
<EXreaction> Uninstall might work best or be most understandable for users | |
<EXreaction> the key is that they recognize generally what's going to happen, then we fully explain what will happen | |
<naderman> well uninstall is a very bad term though | |
<EXreaction> I agree | |
<naderman> as it is entirely unclear about what exactly happens | |
<nickvergessen> naderman: but everyone gets what it does | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: no | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: nobody will know if that deletes files | |
<naderman> or the database | |
<naderman> or both | |
<naderman> or only disables it | |
<nickvergessen> let me make a screen for you | |
<naderman> or if it deletes all config | |
<naderman> etc. | |
<naderman> uninstall is ambiguous | |
<naderman> so I want to find some clear term | |
<naderman> that describes it will delete data | |
<naderman> and nothing else | |
<imkingdavid> just for reference, and i'm not saying that this is what we have to/should do: wordpress has "install", "activate", "deactivate", and "delete" | |
<naderman> let's go with "Delete data"? | |
<imkingdavid> delete only shows up when the plugin is deactivated | |
<naderman> or "Delete extension data"? | |
<naderman> imkingdavid: we can even do that | |
<EXreaction> Delete data seems good to me | |
<imkingdavid> delete data is fine | |
<imkingdavid> no need to specify 'extension' since they're in the extensions management module | |
<EXreaction> it might be safer to require disabling before deletion | |
<naderman> we can even call it deletedata rather than purge internally | |
<naderman> imkingdavid: right | |
<naderman> EXreaction: yeah makes sense | |
<naderman> let's do this then | |
<naderman> nickvergessen: ^ | |
<nickvergessen> http://files.flying-bits.org/2013-11-02_22_32_33.png | |
<nickvergessen> http://files.flying-bits.org/2013-11-02_22_32_34.png | |
<naderman> so? | |
<naderman> I do not want uninstall as an action | |
<naderman> let's do what we just said | |
<nickvergessen> this is my current patch | |
<naderman> delete data | |
<naderman> same explanation |
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