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What would you like to do?
0:00:01.760,0:00:09.600
um trying to not use profanity um but um oh we
appreciate that yeah we like our clean rating
0:00:09.600,0:00:14.880
on me on mage talk we we don't want to lose our
clean reading i mean phillip because it's like
0:00:14.880,0:00:20.320
a sailor when i like like when i talk before you
press record it's it's bleep this and bleep that
0:00:20.320,0:00:29.840
does i mean all he does is just every second word
yeah he's cussing like a like a sailor a sailor
0:00:40.000,0:00:43.840
the guy the guy tweets one tweet
0:00:50.000,0:00:57.840
that's he takes that twenty thousand dollar check
to the bank done bang next one daddy daddy daddy
0:01:04.880,0:01:07.200
that's the real reason you
stayed so long in costa rica
0:01:08.800,0:01:15.360
this is true yeah just um yeah too much like it's
a tax play he's he's like trying to he's he's
0:01:15.360,0:01:21.840
like trying to optimize his tax in situations
like how if i live three months of the year in
0:01:21.840,0:01:27.360
in costa rica and four months of the year and
somewhere else do i have to pay taxes that's the
0:01:27.360,0:01:35.200
question you get into bitcoin you get you get some
time in latin america and you really start working
0:01:35.200,0:01:42.480
on that tax bill i knew i missed something
you go and stay in like the the world's most
0:01:42.480,0:01:49.760
ecological country like australia first country
worldwide that was going to be uh carbon neutral
0:01:49.760,0:01:56.960
you're gonna stay there yeah and you're gonna
spend all your money burning the whole planet
0:01:56.960,0:02:03.200
down with your cryptocurrency it's it's bizarre
on so many levels literally the last like
0:02:03.200,0:02:12.320
five days in costa rica i just got wildly into
bitcoin like listening to like hours of podcasts
0:02:14.240,0:02:20.080
and then they send them back they're like uh
america can you take this guy back please please
0:02:20.080,0:02:27.280
get this guy get this guy off our hands you
are single-handedly killing their uh co2 yeah
0:02:27.280,0:02:36.720
neutrality yeah is it um the carbon neutrality
isn't uh greenland uh don't they run
0:02:36.720,0:02:44.240
or um is it greenland what is that country that
runs off of underground heat they have i see
0:02:47.120,0:02:56.320
i'm such a cave what's that yeah is that aren't
they like 100 geothermal and wouldn't it be
0:02:56.320,0:03:01.680
great if we could just repurpose all that useful
energy into you know just useless transactions
0:03:01.680,0:03:08.240
on the blockchain that has a theoretical value
that we've all agreed to might be great you know
0:03:08.240,0:03:15.920
i i could get into this but unfortunately yeah we
really talk about we need to talk about uh who who
0:03:28.960,0:03:32.640
i thought you guys saddled this in the last
episode we didn't yeah it's been like six
0:03:32.640,0:03:37.040
months since the last episode who knows when
who knows what he's what's even happening
0:03:37.680,0:03:43.360
hiva i would profess to have first-hand knowledge
of java but i haven't touched it in months uh and
0:03:43.360,0:03:50.400
it was me playing with a github repo that was
like not much of anything yeah yeah what do you
0:03:50.400,0:03:56.400
got what do you got these days it's it's it's
single-handedly like revitalized the entirety
0:03:56.400,0:04:01.760
of the magento community or what was left of it
villain tell us what's what's good in java land
0:04:02.720,0:04:09.040
what's good um well let's call it to start
with okay otherwise we'll offend the fins
0:04:12.240,0:04:16.000
they're already offended there's nothing more
that we could do to offend them they're already
0:04:16.000,0:04:21.280
offended but the only thing i need the only thing
i i have to know is do you hear people pronounce
0:04:21.280,0:04:28.080
it wrong all the time or has everybody yeah you
mostly probably you love it okay he's you're not
0:04:28.080,0:04:33.280
tired out by it you're gonna correct it correct
the record i appreciate that that's i would too
0:04:33.280,0:04:37.760
if i was the creator i would correct the record
non-stop i think that's i think that's the way
0:04:37.760,0:04:45.440
to go i mean i i chose this knowingly that this
was going to be an issue for some people um but
0:04:46.800,0:04:54.080
um i like the name too much and as i i think
explained before there's a marketing there's
0:04:54.080,0:05:02.080
there's a marketing game there where i i started
marketing um communication marketing and then
0:05:03.120,0:05:09.760
one of the first lessons the the more often
someone repeats your your brand name the better
0:05:09.760,0:05:18.480
it sticks so when you spend a good 30 seconds
on the last episode pronouncing high value i was
0:05:20.480,0:05:31.440
i was satisfied no um it's um it was a conscious
choice i knew and it finishes the the hardest
0:05:32.080,0:05:37.840
language i came across having lived there for
four years i think i i know about 25 words
0:05:38.880,0:05:48.800
still today but um yeah it really resonates
with me it means good and undesirable and
0:05:48.800,0:05:58.720
uh yeah it's it's it's kind of the soul of what
i'm trying to accomplish like it's not it was
0:05:58.720,0:06:04.000
someone who thought it was kind of arrogant to
say that your company is is good or your product
0:06:04.000,0:06:09.760
or you are good which is not the intention
or or the soul of what's in there is that
0:06:10.800,0:06:18.000
we're drawing trying to do good and trying to
craft um the best possible product that we can
0:06:18.000,0:06:22.560
and uh have an extra enjoyable experience
there and do the best that we can
0:06:23.120,0:06:33.520
and we've got so incredibly lazy in and well
not lazy but i personally think we we went in
0:06:33.520,0:06:40.080
kind of a strange direction uh in the e-commerce
technology world or the the web world in in
0:06:40.080,0:06:49.520
general and i'm trying to bring back some of that
pure old-school hp mouth css performance quality
0:06:49.520,0:06:58.240
and um it's incredibly much fun to work with that
with those tools and then to enrich that with
0:06:59.280,0:07:03.600
tools like javascript instead
of starting out with the tool
0:07:04.320,0:07:12.240
and starting from the highest possible complexity
and the hardest tools you can pick which are the
0:07:12.240,0:07:19.840
hardest to optimize for performance i need the
most uh the most knowledge to or or the most
0:07:20.960,0:07:29.360
skills to actually pull that off well so to to
build a really good web shop with javascript
0:07:29.360,0:07:37.840
only or a spa or pwa will be pw is not the
right term but to pull off a really good spa
0:07:38.720,0:07:44.560
a single page application you need money
and time and skill people and that's one
0:07:44.560,0:07:49.600
percent of the ecommerce world so uh i don't
think that should be less than one percent
0:07:51.440,0:07:54.480
yeah they don't have money they don't have
time and they don't have skilled people
0:07:54.480,0:07:59.600
unless you know you kailyn will drop a tweet
that'll hire them one it'll make them a cool 25k
0:08:02.720,0:08:07.920
i feel like it's the same seven people every
three months but that's that's beside the point
0:08:07.920,0:08:12.560
we just recycle them that's what i think that's
what i actually believe that but we're gonna
0:08:15.120,0:08:20.320
feel like he's flipped the same developers seven
or eight times easily but i'm gonna it's all right
0:08:20.320,0:08:25.760
back to back to villain so it's it is it's only
one percent and i think that you know it's a shame
0:08:25.760,0:08:31.760
that the this idea of best practice of the way
that we deploy e-commerce applications or this
0:08:31.760,0:08:38.320
like future casting of the of the way e-commerce
uh the trend line of like the style of development
0:08:38.320,0:08:45.680
uh for div for deploying well any application
never mind ecommerce but you know it's like oh i'm
0:08:45.680,0:08:52.640
building a simple website like i should definitely
build that in 95 javascript um that makes perfect
0:08:52.640,0:08:59.360
sense um i think that that's been a mistake
that you know has led to more harm than good
0:08:59.360,0:09:05.360
um and yeah so so so that for you was that just
first principles it was like let's start with
0:09:05.920,0:09:11.040
like why like you know what what makes a
good developer experience and an enjoyable
0:09:11.040,0:09:18.000
developer experience that solves problems
that we all have that kind of the yeah well
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first of all um this this was all by accident so
to say i built a tool for myself i i was going to
0:09:25.680,0:09:36.240
build a webshop for my wife and that still didn't
happen um husband of the year classic developer
0:09:37.040,0:09:43.680
i needed to do this so i built a framework built
an entire ecosystem recorded 19 podcasts yeah i
0:09:43.680,0:09:48.480
haven't i haven't uh done that yet also by
the way honey we're not going on vacation
0:09:48.480,0:09:52.400
uh tomorrow because i have to ship something
so we're gonna go on vacation two days from now
0:09:53.280,0:09:58.320
yeah sorry go ahead go ahead go ahead go ahead so
you're gonna build something for your wife i love
0:09:58.320,0:10:05.840
that this came out of a use case that you had this
is great well i battled the front-end framework
0:10:06.720,0:10:14.160
the default magento framework um for for
the magenta 2 front-end for five years
0:10:14.160,0:10:20.400
um the last two years specifically on
performance i know how much time and
0:10:20.400,0:10:26.960
money you can sink into that front end to make
it perform and it's it's getting harder and
0:10:28.320,0:10:34.480
it's it keeps getting harder and one of
the reasons is that the tech stack is is uh
0:10:35.280,0:10:40.560
outdated and it's there's also already
too much javascript in there um and the
0:10:40.560,0:10:44.960
way well let's not go into that but that's
that's that was let's let's leave that there
0:10:46.240,0:10:52.240
and the proposed solution was pwa which
would be the holy grail of performance and
0:10:52.960,0:11:02.880
developer experience and i haven't seen that
in the past years i worked at interginet this
0:11:04.240,0:11:07.280
german agency up till the beginning of this year
0:11:08.880,0:11:18.320
and shout out to them by the way who made
all the whole hoover thing possible um but
0:11:18.880,0:11:23.920
i worked mostly the past two years with
them to optimize front-end performance
0:11:23.920,0:11:30.160
and i've seen there let's write other solutions
first he had deity which is now called falcon
0:11:31.520,0:11:40.000
based on react then pwa studio came off the ground
or got got started and few storefronts came and
0:11:41.120,0:11:48.000
some other bit smaller initiatives game and
all of those are javascript first um and
0:11:49.600,0:11:53.520
integernet is one of the most highly skilled
0:11:53.520,0:12:01.120
agencies um they're they're not the largest
one but they're very renowned for their
0:12:01.120,0:12:08.160
technical capabilities um these guys are brilliant
they had the hardest time to adopt to pwa
0:12:08.880,0:12:17.280
this javascript first content and i think
that's typical for our ecosystem i think um
0:12:18.800,0:12:25.680
it takes a special kind of developer that that
is able to work with the javascript framework um
0:12:27.360,0:12:33.200
they're yeah it's uh i think a lot of union
developers now get started in that world they
0:12:33.200,0:12:43.600
skip the whole html uh base fundamentals um and
just dive straight into these frameworks and you
0:12:43.600,0:12:51.840
think it's fantastic the way we thought that flash
applications were fantastic 15 years ago um and um
0:12:55.280,0:13:02.400
and for me that's not the yeah that's not the kind
of the kind of work i want to do and the kind of
0:13:02.400,0:13:11.680
system so i want to work with um i like the purity
of html css and and uh the added capabilities and
0:13:11.680,0:13:19.840
the extra flavor you can put on top of that
with javascript to enrich the ux and to help
0:13:19.840,0:13:27.760
tackle some accessibility issues that can't be
solved with our javascript but in the basis your
0:13:27.760,0:13:34.400
browser is capable of doing all these things that
these javascript frameworks are letting you do
0:13:34.400,0:13:40.560
but without the one to two megabyte of framework
that ships with it that you all need to download
0:13:40.560,0:13:47.200
before your browser is able to comprehend the code
that you're shipping so first it needs to load in
0:13:47.200,0:13:50.960
this framework and then your code on top
of that and then your browser needs to
0:13:52.160,0:13:58.320
find out what everything does and then build you a
page and if you just check the html and css with a
0:13:58.320,0:14:06.320
bit of javascript your browser ready to go like
they can instantly build a page for you um and
0:14:08.000,0:14:15.200
yeah to come back to the magento ecosystem um i
think we're dealing with at least ninety percent
0:14:15.200,0:14:23.760
php developers that um um very highly skilled
in backhand i think front end has always been
0:14:24.320,0:14:31.760
a bit behind in magenta world and there are some
outliners agencies that do really well and from
0:14:31.760,0:14:42.000
them um but i think the complexity of e-commerce
and and magento has always attracted a technically
0:14:42.640,0:14:48.480
skilled back-end developers you can have a lot
of overlap that become full stack developers
0:14:48.480,0:14:52.640
it will signal some front-end and just the
front-end developer always has had a hard time
0:14:53.200,0:14:58.080
working with a magento front-end because it
gets quite technical very fast and especially
0:14:58.080,0:15:03.200
with this these these systems that
magenta 2 came with where you need to
0:15:05.840,0:15:14.960
everything php xml five javascript frameworks and
just to render a checkbox on your checkout page
0:15:18.480,0:15:26.880
and so i i was very much living this
problem that was my my work life and
0:15:26.880,0:15:31.360
then my wife asked me hey can you build me
a webshop i was like yeah absolutely but
0:15:34.480,0:15:42.320
um i'm trying to not use profanity um but um oh
we appreciate that yeah we like our clean rating
0:15:42.320,0:15:47.600
on me on mage talk we we don't want to lose
our clean reading i mean phillip cuss is like
0:15:47.600,0:15:53.120
a sailor when i like like when i talk before you
press record it's it's bleep this and bleep that
0:16:03.120,0:16:06.880
light comes on i clean up the
act he cleans at the act i
0:16:08.960,0:16:18.000
this is a family show it's a family this
is a family show um so um to rephrase that
0:16:18.000,0:16:26.080
in my mind before it before i speak the words
um i didn't i wasn't too enthusiastic about
0:16:26.080,0:16:30.800
building a magenta to shop in my spare time
now i'm just trying to think in my head
0:16:30.800,0:16:34.880
what was the cuss word he was trying to
say that's all i can think now no not
0:16:45.440,0:16:50.160
it is a bleeping web shop i've worked with
magento for a deck i was saying that with
0:16:50.160,0:16:57.440
magenta one i was like you know freaking mage
mail why does it have to rewrite this class
0:16:57.440,0:17:02.720
why do i have to come in here and rename this
every freaking time friggin mage man what was
0:17:04.640,0:17:10.640
i'm not allowed to talk about it never mind yeah
class rewrites were fantastic and i'm just gonna
0:17:11.440,0:17:20.080
yeah i for one miss them i will say i will say on
the record class rewrites worthy because the thing
0:17:20.080,0:17:26.640
that built the the empire that is you know now
commerce hero that you know you know stands on
0:17:26.640,0:17:35.840
on the on the ruins the archaeological ruins of
of prior businesses like good good good links
0:17:36.640,0:17:45.840
should we and and class rewrites is what paved the
way it was the precursor it was like the the three
0:17:54.080,0:17:59.280
are all funded by class rewriting it's kind of
true i mean when you think about it i if class
0:17:59.280,0:18:05.360
rewrites didn't exist there would have been
no need to create like a standalone like stack
0:18:05.360,0:18:11.600
exchange just for class rewrites like that was the
entirety of an entire generation of stack exchange
0:18:12.880,0:18:19.600
answers wherein i made my career um i made
a career out of answering stack exchange
0:18:19.600,0:18:24.320
questions and kailyn made a career out of
making money very different career paths
0:18:27.120,0:18:34.080
selling my answers uh as product as
product like uh roadmap maybe we should
0:18:34.080,0:18:41.840
call they ask the question that'll be a hundred
dollars yeah and he puts up a tweet 20 grand bang
0:18:44.480,0:18:50.000
the hardest part of development is like googling
something about magento and still finding magenta
0:18:50.000,0:18:54.880
one answers did you do that is the hardest
part you're right that literally nobody wants
0:18:55.440,0:19:01.600
um and it's kind of amazing i i'm pretty
sure you know modius still to this day
0:19:01.600,0:19:06.960
gets a hundred thousand points a month just on
old magenta one answers and there's you know
0:19:06.960,0:19:12.080
we have some people in in the community
um who who are keeping it alive too um
0:19:12.080,0:19:16.480
with the uh the support of the legacy software
so uh who am i to say that that's good or bad
0:19:17.040,0:19:22.560
um but when you're so you go to solve this by
the way if i could interject something villain
0:19:22.560,0:19:30.640
the it's it's really interesting to me to watch
this come around full circle 12 years in in
0:19:30.640,0:19:39.120
to the magenta world because my very first magento
deployment ever was in uh let's say january 2009
0:19:39.840,0:19:50.640
and we deployed it as a cart and checkout
only um we wrote a module to be able to
0:19:50.640,0:20:01.520
uh take an add to cart action from a url and
we had a static site and it was the static site
0:20:01.520,0:20:08.560
was generated from a zen framework application
that we wrote like we've come forward it's still
0:20:08.560,0:20:15.600
life and it still scores 100 points and it still
gets 100 in the lighthouse that's right uh and and
0:20:15.600,0:20:20.400
and you know what's amazing is like we come we we
went full circle through a hole like let's create
0:20:20.400,0:20:24.800
everything as a javascript application and then
oh crap what about server-side rendering you guys
0:20:24.800,0:20:29.600
that's important um and then we went full
circle back around to static site generation
0:20:29.600,0:20:35.760
and you know here we are um talking about it
you know handcrafted html all over again um
0:20:37.200,0:20:43.920
it's a what a time to be alive it's
um it's been neat for me to see like
0:20:43.920,0:20:52.880
um people like using uh hula in the wild um that
sounds funny to say it like that um that but
0:20:52.880,0:20:58.000
like like when when you first had told me about
the project villain i was like oh you know cool
0:20:58.000,0:21:03.200
like you know people will tell me about things
they're working on oh i started this thing cool
0:21:03.200,0:21:08.080
cool cool um and i'm always you know i'm always
like oh that's great you know hopefully it works
0:21:08.080,0:21:14.480
out but nine times out of ten it doesn't really
go too far and then you know i'm i'm talking to
0:21:14.480,0:21:21.360
developers you know here and there on um as i'm
you know doing doing my thing doing what i do
0:21:22.080,0:21:28.240
and like i'll hear from somebody who i i don't
even know just you know a magento developer
0:21:28.240,0:21:33.920
somewhere and they're like they're like yeah like
i started using uh hoover and and it's like made
0:21:33.920,0:21:39.840
me totally re-energized about my job you know and
i talk to people all the time about their jobs and
0:21:39.840,0:21:44.880
like having a job that's frustrating working
on something that's frustrating sucks a lot of
0:21:44.880,0:21:49.520
your energy out you know and i call out like i'm
hearing from multiple people going like oh this
0:21:49.520,0:21:56.000
has really made me excited again about you know
what i do and i'm just like oh i thought this was
0:21:56.000,0:22:02.640
just about my buddies like fun little project and
it's like it's neat to see how it's developing and
0:22:02.640,0:22:10.080
picking up steam and picking up an ecosystem and
really like making you know people's lives better
0:22:10.080,0:22:18.320
you know in that in that way so um you know how
this is how you know when it's become pervasive
0:22:18.320,0:22:25.840
is when i start seeing job postings that
say 10 years hoover experience required
0:22:26.560,0:22:31.680
that's when you know it's reached a critical
mass that's where you know there's some marketing
0:22:31.680,0:22:38.000
there's some uh ecom director somewhere that was
told you gotta go with this and they say we want
0:22:38.000,0:22:47.600
10 years of it darn it yeah and yeah a masters
of computer science and and 10 years of hoover
0:22:50.000,0:22:51.120
i have to wonder why
0:22:53.520,0:23:02.320
is there a like theoretically how how tied to uh
yeah how how dependent is this on on magento and
0:23:02.320,0:23:09.440
the success of magento in the future um i i have
to believe that there is you know a case to be
0:23:09.440,0:23:15.840
made to simplify other front-end development
pipelines and and to have more performance
0:23:15.840,0:23:21.520
that's not javascript and headless oriented or
headless required um what would say you to that
0:23:21.520,0:23:28.000
like what's what's the what's your sense of
of the sustainability of magento in into the
0:23:28.000,0:23:36.160
future considering that you know the large bulk
of magento deployments were open source right um
0:23:38.080,0:23:43.520
what's what what's what's your what's your outlook
on the sustainability of magento as a product
0:23:46.560,0:23:52.880
um then you're talking about
the open source monolith
0:23:56.000,0:23:56.500
um
0:23:59.440,0:24:09.280
yeah this this is of course for us a really
really important important topic um and
0:24:12.480,0:24:23.200
let me think um we were working on securing that
future for us but also for our merchants and the
0:24:23.200,0:24:36.160
agencies we work with um and um what can i say
we're we're making plans of our own so to say um
0:24:38.960,0:24:43.120
we're very much i i am very much
hoping that adobe's ready to
0:24:43.680,0:24:55.200
um not not too far away in the future um let go
of magento as as as an open source product um and
0:24:57.520,0:25:03.920
we're talking with the magenta association
who has the ambition to take over the platform
0:25:06.880,0:25:14.000
i have a lot of ideas of what
it would look like to fork
0:25:14.800,0:25:23.280
magento and build build a company
around that and enable the community to
0:25:26.880,0:25:29.840
claim back ownership over
the product and be able to
0:25:31.040,0:25:43.200
um build on magento again or to build out and
um bring bring back a lot of that energy um i'm
0:25:45.680,0:25:52.240
i'm not sure if the association
has the right tools to do this
0:25:52.240,0:25:57.600
because they're dependent on adobe
they wouldn't necessarily need to
0:25:57.600,0:26:03.440
be dependent on adobe but the current
situation is that uh adobe of course um
0:26:04.480,0:26:12.320
founded them and funds them for for a
large chart for quite a substantial um
0:26:14.480,0:26:29.120
part or percentage um so the association is um
is left to what adobe adobe thinks is right to
0:26:29.120,0:26:33.360
do with with with the platform and it's in
there as well and they're right because they
0:26:33.360,0:26:39.920
paid a fair amount of money for magento and
they're using it in the way that's best for them
0:26:42.400,0:26:47.600
it's it's been communicated
quite clearly that for them
0:26:49.760,0:26:57.040
the future of magento s adobe commerce which
is an adobe product which lives in their adobe
0:26:57.040,0:27:11.600
ecosystem so how atomic adobe commerce is going to
look in one two four years is very different from
0:27:11.600,0:27:18.240
what magento looks like uh i i have to interject
just two things there real quick i i think that
0:27:18.800,0:27:25.840
so you said securing the future right and you said
sort of building it back um you said you know kind
0:27:25.840,0:27:33.120
of re re reinvigorating the magento you know what
what what made magento great and not saying that
0:27:33.760,0:27:39.120
better that's what i was going to say he sort of
said build back better which is which was you know
0:27:39.120,0:27:45.840
papa joe uh was his uh platform i also heard uh
make magento great again but that's another thing
0:27:45.840,0:27:53.680
um but there's a there was another there was
another thing there that i think is sort of the
0:27:55.040,0:28:01.280
i'd say it's the association right the association
is supposed to be this you know uh run by the
0:28:01.280,0:28:08.960
community for the community but there's not like
the the the the sustenance like the ability for
0:28:08.960,0:28:14.320
the association to sustain itself is actually
quite dependent on an influx of dollars that
0:28:14.320,0:28:20.720
either comes from partners or from adobe so it's
not quite the community and i think that that's
0:28:20.720,0:28:29.360
the the sort of conundrum of uh you know the the
association or non-profit not not-for-profit model
0:28:29.360,0:28:35.520
uh that they adopted which requires like
some pretty structured governance that you
0:28:35.520,0:28:42.320
know requires a lot of funds um and and that's
you know sort of just where we find ourselves
0:28:42.320,0:28:50.000
i find it shocking and this is no way of criticism
love adobe thank thank god for them uh don't sue
0:28:50.000,0:28:58.000
me please um uh but i find it shocking that the
company that professes to own creativity of every
0:28:58.000,0:29:03.600
kind in every channel the company that powers
oscar award-winning films to be made and grammy
0:29:03.600,0:29:08.960
award-winning albums to be made and the company
that provides you know every every visual piece
0:29:08.960,0:29:15.600
of media that you see from film uh and and
podcasts and influencer to you know freaking
0:29:15.600,0:29:20.400
apps that you run on your phone to make you know
social media posts with to like every single part
0:29:20.400,0:29:26.240
of creativity in our culture is touched by a piece
of software that adobe owns why could this not be
0:29:26.800,0:29:32.720
why could we not reimagine magento to be the
most creative tool for commerce that exists in
0:29:32.720,0:29:37.760
the world it's been three years and you know what
we have instead it's the same product that it was
0:29:37.760,0:29:46.080
a few years ago with a little extra put on it to
kind of you know fix some uh uh i don't know it's
0:29:46.080,0:29:51.600
it just doesn't it's it's yeah it's a big it's
a big lost opportunity right it's it's it's not
0:29:51.600,0:29:58.000
water that's not what their why their focus is um
their their focus i think is not in the monolith
0:29:58.000,0:30:03.840
their focus is on building everything that
you just mentioned like the wildest creativity
0:30:03.840,0:30:10.240
will be possible within their suit of products
that live in adobe so you'll have adobe products
0:30:10.240,0:30:17.680
that give you wild creativity that just deploy
something in your pwa app that runs on apis only
0:30:18.320,0:30:24.480
um so so that's where their focus is and
that's the kind of customers they want to serve
0:30:25.280,0:30:39.840
and uh i think the spirit of magento is is what
a lot of people um that that formed that spirit
0:30:39.840,0:30:46.560
at adobe or magento and then adobe they're not
around anymore they've been reincarnated as hoover
0:30:49.280,0:30:53.600
that's kind of true that's the excitement today
that's where i see the excitement in the community
0:30:53.600,0:30:59.520
kaelyn you know you know this you know it's
true yeah there is there is a there is a level
0:30:59.520,0:31:05.920
you know i you guys are going to hate this but
i i see this interesting parallel in the bitcoin
0:31:06.480,0:31:18.320
oh my god no in the sense that um with with open
source so like all these decentralized protocols
0:31:18.320,0:31:25.360
are open source by by nature and um and so there
are these thriving open source communities right
0:31:26.080,0:31:35.520
and it it actually it's weird it's weird because
i feel like in e-commerce to a large extent sas um
0:31:35.520,0:31:42.800
well e-commerce on the web in general like sas is
kind of like one as a business model for for uh to
0:31:42.800,0:31:51.600
a large extent like there's so many issues with um
security and it's almost like in some sense like
0:31:53.200,0:31:59.040
the open sort like i like i'm thinking back to
those earlier days and i think that show me show
0:31:59.040,0:32:06.640
me one open source organization that has thrived
over a series of decades that didn't have a bdfl
0:32:06.640,0:32:14.320
at the helm right why why is laravel as popular
as it is is because it has taylor otwell
0:32:14.320,0:32:20.640
why is uh tailwind as as prevalent as it
is because it has adam wathen right why
0:32:20.640,0:32:26.160
is right why did linux become so uh
pervasive is because they had linus torvalds
0:32:26.160,0:32:32.960
you cannot have a fully decentralized organization
that is fully autonomous and flat that ever
0:32:32.960,0:32:39.280
gets any amount of work done without becoming
infighting and inviting and and tribal amongst
0:32:39.280,0:32:44.080
its own core members look what happened to the
php working group look what's happened to uh
0:32:45.360,0:32:52.240
others that shall not be named like i we have a
i think by nature open source is an ideal that
0:32:52.240,0:32:58.320
is best applied to people that have extraordinary
vision and do you know why hoover is successful is
0:32:58.320,0:33:01.440
because we have someone who had extraordinary
vision trying to solve a real problem without
0:33:01.440,0:33:07.680
having to you know with you know and and created
something that like that went out in search of
0:33:07.680,0:33:15.200
of of uh solving a problem that exists in the
world without having to consult 400 other people's
0:33:15.200,0:33:19.440
input including you know people that you know
providing capital financing to make it happen
0:33:19.440,0:33:24.480
because that's how we had magento 2 come around
you know it's like we're trying to gain consensus
0:33:24.480,0:33:30.480
nothing great in this world comes about because
of extreme consensus right that's that's just
0:33:30.480,0:33:39.840
the case right well yeah including bitcoin
that's because satoshi i is a godman child who
0:33:41.760,0:33:46.080
i think the decentralized consensus thing
is really fascinating but i wasn't i wasn't
0:33:46.080,0:33:52.640
meaning to to sidetrack with that it was more oh
i'm the one who signed us no you go on i'm sorry
0:33:52.640,0:33:56.320
no no that was that was that was that was
a great point and i think that william
0:33:56.960,0:34:02.160
does fall under that category of like
when you have an open source project
0:34:02.160,0:34:09.120
you need a leader that has a strong
vision that's going to lead strongly lead
0:34:09.120,0:34:14.320
with strength and clarity um and i think that's
that's what you're doing and that's awesome i
0:34:14.320,0:34:20.160
just like it's fascinating for me to be dipping my
toes into this open source community that's like
0:34:20.960,0:34:28.720
that's like seeing tremendous growth and then
think and then and i mean right yeah yeah and
0:34:28.720,0:34:34.720
like magenta was called no that's a parallel it
is actually yeah it is it's a very strong miracle
0:34:36.160,0:34:44.000
to me i i actually i actually saw a linkedin post
where uh this one person created a profile on the
0:34:44.000,0:34:48.960
site they on my site they they wrote this profile
like i love magento i mean i've been in love with
0:34:48.960,0:34:53.760
magento for 10 years it was very poetic posted it
got a lot of interaction this one person replied
0:34:53.760,0:34:57.760
and it was like magento is a cult and they're like
i hate magento i stopped using it whenever ago
0:34:58.480,0:35:04.160
um but it's interesting to me to be comparing
sort of the the old days right where the open
0:35:04.160,0:35:10.320
source community was kind of thriving arguably
it's been in decline in many ways right for
0:35:10.320,0:35:18.800
for years and like i think willem is is picking
up like it is sort of um uh is making some
0:35:18.800,0:35:23.040
progress in an upward direction but like by
and large we've been on kind of downward trend
0:35:23.680,0:35:28.880
and i think that's due to that sort of
just the nature of like sas eating up so
0:35:28.880,0:35:38.880
much can i can i can i can i pose a conjecture
when when was magento released publicly 2008
0:35:40.240,0:35:44.480
yeah let's call 2008 i think
it's like august 2008 okay um
0:35:46.560,0:35:50.400
when was when was hoova released publicly
0:35:52.320,0:35:58.960
has it been has it been a year now two year
and a half two years how long has it been
0:35:58.960,0:36:08.720
announced announcer launched launched
launch february of 21 no this year 2021 wait
0:36:10.480,0:36:18.560
okay february so the conjecture the conjecture
that i have is um open source goes through
0:36:19.920,0:36:26.640
open source adoption goes through cycles
that map very nicely to economic distress
0:36:27.760,0:36:34.000
i i think that economic distress causes
a high rate of adoption and interest in
0:36:34.000,0:36:38.400
open source because you have people that
are changing careers people that become
0:36:38.400,0:36:43.200
aspirational about things that they're
impassioned projects that they're adopting
0:36:43.760,0:36:50.400
so you have a huge influx of of uh interest in a
community right then you have people um that are
0:36:51.040,0:36:56.560
uh just like just being very honest like how
do you cut licensing and software costs at
0:36:56.560,0:37:00.400
a corporate level in a time where your
profits aren't rising so or you're where
0:37:00.400,0:37:05.200
your top line is arriving rising you have to cut
the bottom line to be able to make some margin
0:37:05.200,0:37:11.520
like adoption of of open source software again
becomes back in vogue i think there's a cycle here
0:37:11.520,0:37:17.600
that can that maps very nicely in the modern era
unfortunately the thing that we are going to deal
0:37:17.600,0:37:24.240
with in this economic you know distress post covid
is that a lot of that effort is going into the the
0:37:24.240,0:37:31.360
uh crypto and and blockchain communities and not
into areas that could use the development like uh
0:37:31.360,0:37:36.960
like e-commerce um and and traditional
like deployed software and that's where
0:37:36.960,0:37:42.720
we are contending as an as an ecosystem of the
lack of ability to hire and retain people that
0:37:42.720,0:37:47.520
are doing interesting cutting-edge work uh the
last time we had a little bit of an economic dip
0:37:48.480,0:37:57.360
um uh it was uh we had a similar situation
uh and and this is um uh 2000 and this is
0:37:57.360,0:38:07.120
like right around uh the trump election um
originally uh in 2016 um profanity yeah yeah
0:38:07.840,0:38:13.760
yes uh exactly clean let's keep our clean
rating um but right right around that same uh
0:38:14.560,0:38:21.200
that same uh era uh you know we had uh uh uh you
know a little bit of a flat line in in economic
0:38:21.200,0:38:26.640
and gdp growth at least here in the united states
uh you saw a lot of folks putting uh huge amounts
0:38:26.640,0:38:32.800
of effort into open source libraries for ai and
machine learning and python development um and uh
0:38:33.440,0:38:40.640
so i i feel like just we might have had a dearth
of 12 13 years ago of people that were you know uh
0:38:41.600,0:38:47.200
in deployed software ecosystems nowadays we have
a lot of other interesting work to have to compete
0:38:47.200,0:38:52.320
with and that's you know yet another reason
why like you cannot create highfalutin you know
0:38:52.320,0:38:58.640
high-minded uh e-commerce frameworks today and
get the kind of traction that you had you know uh
0:38:58.640,0:39:04.400
solving massive engineering problems in e-commerce
you know years ago those those folks just don't do
0:39:04.400,0:39:09.120
e-commerce work right now they're moving on to
other types of projects look at fabrizio braca
0:39:09.120,0:39:16.160
like what's he doing these days like the guy you
know i yeah it's it's they move on to to solve
0:39:16.160,0:39:22.560
bigger problems at bigger scale right that's
a really interesting um observation i hadn't
0:39:22.560,0:39:27.200
i hadn't thought about that at all but um and
probably doesn't hold up it doesn't hold water
0:39:27.200,0:39:32.080
i'm coming back to why hoover now like i i think
that's the reason is like we need something that's
0:39:32.080,0:39:37.040
consumable by an average human being developer who
doesn't have to be a super developer to be able
0:39:37.040,0:39:42.160
to get any work done also by and large because
magento is deployed as the open source product
0:39:42.160,0:39:48.000
you don't have massive teams of people working on
this stuff that have broad capabilities across an
0:39:48.000,0:39:56.640
entire stack right sort of i sort of disagree in
the sense that i don't see it so much as like oh
0:39:56.640,0:40:02.480
like people are trying to cut costs they're
looking for open source i feel like it just has
0:40:02.480,0:40:11.280
to do with the fact that m2's front-end framework
is garbage beast stupid and i don't think villain
0:40:11.280,0:40:17.440
would have built this if like economic cycles
being what they are if they had executed really
0:40:17.440,0:40:23.600
well on on on on that i don't think one would
have had any reason to even want to build this
0:40:23.600,0:40:28.560
you know literally nobody would have ever built
this like if this is this was the doctor strange
0:40:28.560,0:40:34.800
like this is the one out of like six million you
know multiverse possibilities we wound up in the
0:40:34.800,0:40:41.040
worst timeline where trump is president the m2
front-end framework is created and and then we
0:40:41.040,0:40:49.120
got kovid like it was those those things in in
that order um but but but actually we we um you
0:40:49.120,0:40:54.800
mentioned that you're not at integer net anymore
and so have you he's hiring his own people now
0:40:57.040,0:41:01.440
we have a tradition on mage talk
of when somebody goes full time
0:41:02.000,0:41:05.040
oh yeah somebody starts a
side project and goes out time
0:41:06.080,0:41:11.840
we have a tradition of announcing this on
the bot but that's that's amazing are you
0:41:11.840,0:41:16.480
that's it that's correct congratulations
are you you're full time on on it now right
0:41:18.320,0:41:26.560
um yeah um it was pretty clear beginning of
the year that um to launch viva i needed to um
0:41:26.560,0:41:34.880
spend full time working on it and um i i
wanted to launch of february so i took a
0:41:36.160,0:41:41.600
un unpaid month off for in february and then we
prolonged that to march and then we decided to
0:41:43.920,0:41:49.760
to um let me work full-time on ufa
and and my employees really because
0:41:50.320,0:41:57.600
it made so much more sense for both integer
and me um to build out viva and there was
0:41:57.600,0:42:06.000
just too much that needed to be done right um
um integer has let me write this wave since
0:42:06.640,0:42:13.760
so this started in in june last year i it's my
first commit um and then two days later i had a
0:42:13.760,0:42:22.160
home page that worked and and that i showed at
colleagues at integernet and we all got excited
0:42:22.160,0:42:29.840
a month later i had a prototype and they decided
to do a first project with that and they were so
0:42:29.840,0:42:34.880
enthusiastic to finally have something enhanced
that they could really deliver stuff with so
0:42:35.920,0:42:44.080
also that it was immediately apparent that
building stuff with tufa goes much faster faster
0:42:44.080,0:42:52.240
than with luma faster than with pwa solutions um
so we delivered the first project um i think all
0:42:52.240,0:42:57.840
the front-end work was done in four to six weeks
which would normally would have taken three months
0:42:58.880,0:43:06.000
and that was built on my prototype was a b2b shop
so it needed some custom work and not a lot of
0:43:06.000,0:43:12.400
magenta features were not needed there by default
because we had all these quick order stuff that we
0:43:12.400,0:43:18.800
did with graphql which is we immediately created
this hybrid between uh old stack new stack so new
0:43:18.800,0:43:26.720
technologies are just thrown in whenever it makes
sense uh in that case it really did um and then
0:43:28.720,0:43:33.680
i think that was awkward as we
started the first project and then um
0:43:35.840,0:43:42.640
they immediately started up to act for projects
um and then they stopped working on one few
0:43:42.640,0:43:46.720
storefront project that they have been working on
for eight months and they couldn't deliver before
0:43:46.720,0:43:51.920
the end of the year and the customer didn't there
was there was no end in sight and they couldn't
0:43:51.920,0:43:59.840
they couldn't properly estimate what it would
cost to finish it and um by january they released
0:43:59.840,0:44:09.280
the full rebuild on huffa um within that line
and uh within that line and well obviously no
0:44:09.280,0:44:16.000
longer within budget because they already crossed
that four times with with hugh slothron um so
0:44:17.680,0:44:22.160
yeah it made a lot of sense for them
to invest in this product to make sure
0:44:22.160,0:44:27.040
that it got markets ready and they could
continue build their business on top of it
0:44:27.680,0:44:34.800
um so we had a really good relationship there
and a partnership where they allowed me to build
0:44:34.800,0:44:43.280
stuff for their customers and then put into my
product um and yeah somewhere around january
0:44:43.280,0:44:48.320
uh most of the features that that they needed at
that point were completed and i just needed to
0:44:48.320,0:44:52.160
keep going to build and all the features that
the community needed and my customers needed
0:44:52.800,0:45:00.080
so i went full focus on that from february
and then the 12th of february we launched
0:45:01.040,0:45:07.600
version 1.0 and the feature matrix was
already more complete than pwa at that time
0:45:08.320,0:45:15.200
um i had wishlists during my launch of
february which was released yesterday for pwa
0:45:16.480,0:45:26.080
wow um so um yeah from there one one obvious issue
that we needed to tackle was the ecosystem of of
0:45:26.080,0:45:34.320
extensions and um we haven't had major releases
on uva in the past three months i think because
0:45:34.320,0:45:38.320
there has gone a lot of focus in these
compatibility modules that we built
0:45:38.880,0:45:46.080
so we take modules from from uh what our
customers request so what's in high demand we
0:45:47.760,0:45:52.480
we take those we make them compatible uh
with huffa and that we shared just the
0:45:52.480,0:45:58.480
code to make it compatible with our customers
so today i launched a blog on our own website
0:45:59.600,0:46:07.680
so on hoover io and that's built on the mage
some block and that's a compatibility module
0:46:07.680,0:46:12.080
that just contains some html files that
make it compatible they contain all the
0:46:12.080,0:46:16.880
css in javascript and um i made it compatible
for our own website and then immediately
0:46:17.440,0:46:22.080
built a competitive compatibility module out
of that that all of our customers can use now
0:46:22.720,0:46:30.880
um and uh yeah there's some some modules from
um with lead navigation and ajax filtering and
0:46:30.880,0:46:35.520
everything that we're not really too keen about
because they contain a lot of javascript and
0:46:36.240,0:46:41.840
obviously we don't like that but we've put
a lot of effort in these kind of modules to
0:46:43.280,0:46:48.000
to make at least some of those compatible so
on the whole range of functionalities that
0:46:48.000,0:46:52.800
merchants need at least we have examples
out there we have good documentation
0:46:52.800,0:46:59.120
we haven't even mentioned yet that finite cop
is yeah my business partner now oh my gosh
0:46:59.120,0:47:05.680
how did i not know that you did not know
that i did not know that he yeah so it's um
0:47:06.320,0:47:12.560
it's it's published uh publicly
first time this week in a blog
0:47:12.560,0:47:21.120
article from intergenerate which uh describes
the the birth of viva or like how is became
0:47:23.200,0:47:33.200
of offspring of of energynet so to say or spin-off
um and uh finai when i started working at integer
0:47:33.200,0:47:41.280
earlier this year and got involved with so much
that at some point he just he got gravity put him
0:47:41.280,0:47:48.240
towards hoover and um that's so cool that's
that's that's the coolest thing i love that
0:47:50.800,0:47:58.000
wow you got the killer team my gosh um
yeah so much knowledge and there's so much
0:47:58.000,0:48:05.680
um so much expertise that that finnai brings
in not only i mean first of all he's the best
0:48:05.680,0:48:09.680
the best person i could imagine to work
with because he's the kind is the nicest guy
0:48:09.680,0:48:18.560
he is and then also super super intelligent
and humble um and um he immediately started
0:48:18.560,0:48:23.520
off writing a lot of documentation and work on
these compatibility modules and just made the
0:48:23.520,0:48:32.320
whole ecosystem better from the data he joined and
and started working on it um so yeah we're really
0:48:32.320,0:48:37.680
we're really in the left so it's me it's finai we
have a front-end developer that started this week
0:48:38.880,0:48:48.400
he's is going to put full-time effort in this ui
comp uh ui component library so he'll be building
0:48:51.360,0:48:56.080
all kinds of menus and navigation
and galleries and swatch displays and
0:48:56.080,0:49:00.000
it's very much like tailwind
ui does a commercial package
0:49:01.440,0:49:09.040
that we we announced this in in in october already
like it was my it was my dream like that's the
0:49:09.040,0:49:14.000
product that i want to build but i needed to
build a platform to be able to build that product
0:49:15.520,0:49:22.320
and um that's going to be i mean the tailwind
ui e-commerce package was launched today so i
0:49:23.120,0:49:28.720
yeah video coming up so i feel uh i i would really
like to start playing with it tomorrow but i can't
0:49:29.280,0:49:34.320
um well you have a release you have a release
tomorrow yeah and then and then you have to go on
0:49:34.320,0:49:41.440
vacation because you told your wife yeah yeah yeah
yeah um and uh boy i need a vacation so that's
0:49:41.440,0:49:50.320
that's so good but um that ui library is already
amazing so building a shop with uva just means you
0:49:50.320,0:49:57.920
buy a license with tailwind ui take the e-commerce
package and then copy their html css or just html
0:49:57.920,0:50:03.600
because it contains the css and then you implement
it into who file with the with the functionalities
0:50:03.600,0:50:11.840
that we have you reuse the javascript that we that
we build and uh you have a beautiful website in
0:50:12.640,0:50:18.560
uh i i i don't want to exaggerate but like in
a fraction of the time you would normally spend
0:50:19.600,0:50:24.400
and uh that's that's to say the least
i think by the time by the time you you
0:50:24.400,0:50:32.720
dig into the documentation on ui components um
and and you write and you write like 16 or 20
0:50:33.600,0:50:38.720
xml files you could probably you know
you could probably get a lot more done
0:50:38.720,0:50:42.240
in hoover i wouldn't know because i can't
get my team to spend a thousand dollars
0:50:42.240,0:50:46.000
on your freaking license so you know
there's that it's a whole other thing
0:50:47.760,0:50:52.080
seriously wait we gotta we gotta dig into
no let's talk about this i'll i'll talk
0:50:52.080,0:50:57.520
crap about my team publicly i don't care
no i guess i'm investing in peace i'm just
0:50:59.440,0:51:06.000
i actually it's funny because i i would have
assumed it was more the um you know indie
0:51:06.000,0:51:12.400
developer that you know is just doing a little
random thing on the side that wants to use it
0:51:12.400,0:51:16.720
like i think i've run into one or two people
that have kind of fit that description and they
0:51:16.720,0:51:20.800
haven't been able to you know put down the money
to try it out but i would have thought like for
0:51:20.800,0:51:28.800
companies it would wouldn't be in a in a pre in a
prior era you know there there's absolutely a um
0:51:29.440,0:51:34.400
there would have been a team that is scrappy
working on it uh we have a number of of we
0:51:34.400,0:51:39.600
have a number of challenges one you know uh
something digital was acquired by right point
0:51:39.600,0:51:45.440
back in october um and just a lot of moving parts
i'm sure we're in the mist we're in the midst of a
0:51:45.440,0:51:52.080
no see you're trying to gloss over and i'm trying
to talk crap thank you for helping me out i love
0:51:52.080,0:51:57.600
it they're gonna play this back for me by the
way in my in my dismissal and be like um i'll
0:51:57.600,0:52:00.720
be like why are we sitting here and they'll be
like hold on one second they'll pull up you know
0:52:01.600,0:52:09.840
49 minutes and 27 seconds 51 30 on the podcast
um it basically comes down to this like we we you
0:52:09.840,0:52:16.720
know we what we deliver is extremely known and we
deliver it all the time right and we have a roster
0:52:16.720,0:52:21.520
of clients you know 50 some odd you know growth
clients that we deliver the same thing like we've
0:52:21.520,0:52:25.680
they're all in the same stack they have the
same common front end and back end there's an
0:52:25.680,0:52:30.160
extreme repeatability and predictability
for us to make any kind of investment
0:52:30.160,0:52:35.120
in the future it's not a dollar amount it's a
it's a willingness to put effort into is this
0:52:35.120,0:52:39.920
what we're going to do who's going to champion
it who becomes the product owner internally
0:52:39.920,0:52:45.360
the thousand dollars is nothing like it's nothing
i've seen us spend three thousand dollars on on a
0:52:45.360,0:52:53.200
bottle of wine so like it's it's about it's about
i'm just letting it rip watch this i won't have
0:52:53.200,0:52:58.000
a job next month i'll have to come work for
hoover um i could do you need an evangelist
0:52:59.840,0:53:07.520
um can you pay me in bitcoin that's what
kaelin wants to know um that won't fly with p9
0:53:08.720,0:53:15.520
i know i know i have to see i've seen that yeah
so like long story short it's you know uh as an
0:53:15.520,0:53:21.520
agency and especially one that has less and less
agency these days we're an agency without agency
0:53:21.520,0:53:28.560
um i i you know like what what what we do in the
future is actually like a long a long long long
0:53:28.560,0:53:33.040
road map of you know a year and a half two years
from now and we have to have someone internal to
0:53:33.040,0:53:38.880
champion it um and and sort of product manage it
as a new line of business and that's just takes
0:53:38.880,0:53:42.720
way more time than i'd like it to and that's
unfortunate and that's where we are but one day
0:53:43.760,0:53:46.640
this year it's happening
we're going to get there um
0:53:49.200,0:53:55.600
but hey maybe we could we just like rant about
things that we're mildly sure are going to get
0:53:55.600,0:54:01.120
us into into trouble and yeah i'm 100 sure this
will get me into trouble it's not even mild
0:54:03.360,0:54:07.280
it's all true though you can never you can
never say that i've lied like that's the
0:54:10.800,0:54:17.280
yeah how did we get onto this oh yeah yeah by the
way bill if you need a biz dev guy i mean i mean
0:54:17.280,0:54:26.640
i'm your guy i mean i'm i'm he'll do it he costs
20 000 a tweet i'm okay i'm overcoming objections
0:54:26.640,0:54:31.200
yeah kayla if if you're okay with your
biz dev guy having laser eyes on twitter
0:54:31.760,0:54:38.800
um you saw my laser eye of course i saw your
laser eyes i haven't gotten any comments on it yet
0:54:39.440,0:54:44.960
um so yeah let me know man can
we circle back to one thing
0:54:44.960,0:54:50.960
yeah please to use the best so what we do
here that's what we do we circle we circle
0:55:01.520,0:55:08.080
so one thing i'm heavily invested in is
and we left the topic um because of bitcoin
0:55:08.080,0:55:19.040
oh sorry the future the future of magento yeah um
and i just i just um i just want to ensure people
0:55:21.280,0:55:30.320
magento has a future like there's a bright future
from magento open source and i've been talking to
0:55:32.720,0:55:42.160
people that are absolutely capable of
carrying this platform um and either
0:55:42.880,0:55:52.640
adobe or the association comes up with a solid
plan to do this or another initiative will rise
0:55:54.240,0:55:57.840
and will enable the community and
0:56:00.000,0:56:07.520
have the strength and the and and the willingness
there is um the cool the best thing that
0:56:07.520,0:56:12.080
that has happened with huffa for me is
that all the people that reach out to me
0:56:12.800,0:56:21.280
um have so much passion for magento and want to
keep that going so badly and they miss they really
0:56:21.280,0:56:32.400
miss this community and and collaboration and um
contributing to things and helping each other out
0:56:32.400,0:56:42.480
and that has put all the right people on my scope
to um sit together and discuss what we can do
0:56:43.280,0:56:54.000
to give magento a future and i don't
want to get in the way of the association
0:56:54.960,0:57:02.240
and i don't want to i want i really appreciate
the relationship i have with people at adobe um
0:57:02.240,0:57:08.080
so i i really hope that um something
comes up that will bring out um
0:57:08.960,0:57:19.040
the best for the community and then i'm really
purely talking about the php monolith because
0:57:19.040,0:57:26.880
there's if if we talk about adobe caring about
open source i have the feeling that often means
0:57:26.880,0:57:33.120
the open source pwa app and not so much the
monolith because that's that's going to be
0:57:33.120,0:57:40.320
deprecated that's that's something that has been
communicated and that will happen in i think two
0:57:40.320,0:57:48.880
to four years uh the php monolith of magento is
going to be deprecated in two to four years yeah
0:57:51.280,0:57:56.880
that's interesting um does that
mean i have to learn peregrine now
0:58:00.240,0:58:07.760
no because magenta won't go away it's just um
it's it it won't go away it will it will only
0:58:07.760,0:58:14.400
be like a cockroach it'll just live on forever
no no yeah no that's not that's definitely not
0:58:14.400,0:58:20.640
what i have in mind um i think um we can bring
the right impulse back to magenta to have to
0:58:20.640,0:58:26.560
innovate it again it has been stagnant for the
last five years it really has and i think yeah um
0:58:27.920,0:58:32.720
not a lot has happened there especially
on the front end on the current front
0:58:32.720,0:58:37.680
end of the monolith so to say but also
on the back end there could have been
0:58:38.480,0:58:45.600
much more innovation if the right focus would
have been there and i think um open source
0:58:45.600,0:58:51.840
contributions are becoming less and less it's
becoming more people getting demotivated because
0:58:51.840,0:58:57.760
the whole process of getting um contributions
uh accepted are getting harder and harder
0:58:59.280,0:59:06.480
you see a lot of complaints i mean even freaking
people from varnish from the organization
0:59:06.480,0:59:12.160
varnish open pull requests that are that are
unanswered for over a year they're trying to
0:59:12.160,0:59:20.240
make magento better and suggest fixes for for
some issues in the way varnish is implemented and
0:59:21.440,0:59:28.160
it doesn't even get the right attention there
so um i think i really think we can change that
0:59:28.160,0:59:38.400
um but um this this might be an interesting
one to to come back to in uh one to two months
0:59:39.200,0:59:46.960
um and um and see where we're at then
um but um i feel like willem is ready
0:59:46.960,0:59:51.600
to take over as the bdfl for magento
i think so too i i i would allow it
0:59:52.320,0:59:57.680
to rise from the ashes this this shouldn't i
don't think magenta should be run by a person
0:59:58.640,1:00:05.120
that's i don't think i don't think if i should
run magento i think it should be a legend
1:00:05.120,1:00:11.360
is what it should be run by i i'm on record for a
very long time now saying that i feel like we the
1:00:11.360,1:00:17.920
the the community running magento is what we got
between magenta one and two and a lot of people
1:00:17.920,1:00:24.720
who were into a lot of fads at the time got a lot
of input into making magento ii the sort of camel
1:00:24.720,1:00:31.280
that it became you know they say that a horse
designed by a committee is a camel and um you know
1:00:31.280,1:00:37.280
there's it's like a camel is is a project that had
scope creep right like that's that's exactly what
1:00:37.280,1:00:44.720
happens and and i i i kind of i don't know i think
that there's a lot of decision fatigue too with
1:00:44.720,1:00:50.400
deployed software i think it's super necessary
and do i think it's going to live on 100 how do i
1:00:50.400,1:00:57.600
think that because i watch corporations put tens
of millions of dollars into magento every year
1:00:58.800,1:01:05.600
magenta one well no i'm magento too i i'm watching
it i i build it i i answer rfps every day like
1:01:05.600,1:01:10.320
that's what that's my my job is to help them
strategize how to use it in their organizations
1:01:10.320,1:01:17.840
it's not happening on you know kalin's
you know smokeshopemporium.com anymore
1:01:17.840,1:01:24.720
it happens on it happens in the it's happening
in powering that business is doing quite well
1:01:26.400,1:01:34.080
they only accept bitcoin nothing to see that but
the the it so so like your mom-and-pop e-commerce
1:01:34.080,1:01:40.800
store is being powered by something else these
days but uh big big enterprise e-commerce builds
1:01:40.800,1:01:46.880
that are powering like your health care system
and your your post-health care needs um uh
1:01:46.880,1:01:53.520
uh post-operation like you need to buy a walker
you need to go home with uh a bunch of uh uh care
1:01:53.520,1:01:58.080
instructions and maybe you need some like you need
to you know put some stuff in your house to like
1:01:58.080,1:02:02.720
help you with mobility like a a frame around the
toilet for you to be able to get up and down like
1:02:02.720,1:02:07.840
all these things are commerce solutions that
like companies all over the world are building
1:02:07.840,1:02:12.880
and they're putting tens of millions into magento
i don't think that magento is going to die
1:02:12.880,1:02:18.560
i think magento has already evolved as a product
as we understand it and the use cases have adapted
1:02:18.560,1:02:24.560
what i would love to see is to see the use
cases come back to the four where we have a uh
1:02:25.760,1:02:31.440
where there can be more consumer interaction and
it can power the new types than the new flexible
1:02:31.440,1:02:36.800
consumer experiences of the future um because i'm
afraid that it's being relegated to a b2b software
1:02:36.800,1:02:46.400
stack and and you know that's uh uh you know that
would be a shame right that would be a real shame
1:02:46.400,1:02:53.040
because i think it's powerful for it it's capable
of so much more i can just imagine like i just i
1:02:53.040,1:02:59.200
literally imagined it i mean i know i'm joking
about it but but i imagine bill i'm taking over
1:02:59.200,1:03:05.040
in that role and and i i think we've said this
a lot of times philip that like you need that
1:03:05.040,1:03:11.760
person that bdfl that taylor otwell that yo that
roy you need that person at the helm of a product
1:03:11.760,1:03:19.200
that loves it that's dedicated to it um to kind
of steer it like and in many ways i think that
1:03:19.200,1:03:24.320
might be the one single thing that magenta
like lost as somewhere along the way i mean
1:03:25.840,1:03:29.840
does roy get do we are we allowed to cite
roy's name he's been gone longer than he was
1:03:29.840,1:03:35.520
there i i feel like it's not he doesn't count
anymore the guy sold it the first opportunity
1:03:35.520,1:03:41.920
one person says one person says hey would you
like can i buy that and he's like yes please
1:03:43.520,1:03:48.960
and the next person says can i buy that and
he's like absolutely you can mark level says
1:03:48.960,1:03:55.680
i think you need help running this thing he's
like here have it just take it please that was
1:03:55.680,1:04:01.040
anyone i think that was i mean i think it was
on one of these one of these exponential curves
1:04:01.040,1:04:07.040
and that was the moment however long ago it was
yeah the curve started to and then it took years
1:04:07.040,1:04:12.000
and years and years and then you know whatever i
can i can and i know willem hates is saying this
1:04:12.000,1:04:18.560
because he gave all these caveats about how he has
villain has a beautiful story by the way and we're
1:04:18.560,1:04:24.640
pooping all over it like there's something really
truly remarkable and very i think upbeat about
1:04:25.200,1:04:30.800
being bullish on the future of magento and not
just saying that from like conjecture but saying
1:04:30.800,1:04:37.440
yeah and i'm doing something about it and and and
i'm not even joking at all like i oh because i
1:04:37.440,1:04:43.680
i've yeah i've been i've been joking no but
like i genuinely could see well i'm doing that
1:04:43.680,1:04:49.840
and i know how much he loves magento you
know i i had that feeling about magento as
1:04:49.840,1:04:54.240
a developer myself for a number of years and then
i don't know what happened i something happened
1:04:54.240,1:05:01.280
you know you started tweeting for 20 grand of
pops and then yeah i love the community but like
1:05:01.280,1:05:08.000
it's just a money printer now and more
than just having that but having created a
1:05:08.000,1:05:13.280
real world product that people are using and
not only are they using it but they're loving it
1:05:13.280,1:05:18.320
when you create software that people love
you know like a laravel like a tailwind
1:05:19.040,1:05:23.600
there's something magical there and
like i hadn't thought about this thing
1:05:23.600,1:05:30.960
you know the rest of magento or whatever where
that might go uh the open source piece um but
1:05:30.960,1:05:36.240
uh that would be yeah awesome that'd be
beautiful like to see it it's what's been
1:05:36.240,1:05:41.680
desperately needed is for someone to come from the
outside of the organization and say hey here's a
1:05:41.680,1:05:45.280
totally different way of thinking about solving
this problem we're approaching this whole thing
1:05:45.280,1:05:52.000
all wrong and i like i so welcome that and applaud
you for doing it because it's not an easy thing to
1:05:52.000,1:05:57.200
do the fact that you're attracting others around
you that say and we want to help you with it like
1:05:57.840,1:06:05.120
yeah that's like this is that's that's how
community works um so many people that are eager
1:06:05.120,1:06:14.160
to see something like this happen it's only you
only need to ask and they pop up and there is
1:06:15.680,1:06:20.880
such a immense market around magento
the monolith as it stands currently i
1:06:20.880,1:06:26.240
should actually just stated this people pouring
millions and millions in it just this year alone
1:06:28.240,1:06:37.600
and i think all we need is um some
clarity about what will happen with it
1:06:38.480,1:06:46.480
and with magento with magento yeah so if we
speak about adobe commerce and magento being
1:06:46.480,1:06:52.400
magento being the open source monolith we
need to know what our future is going to
1:06:52.400,1:06:56.640
be with magento what that looks like and
i don't want to sit back and wait until
1:06:59.200,1:07:03.680
adobe's going to tell us like
if that takes too long then
1:07:06.320,1:07:10.800
then we have to speed things up
and i know the association is is
1:07:11.920,1:07:19.200
trying to trying to get a grip on this and i i
really hope that they that they that they can
1:07:19.200,1:07:25.680
accomplish um some statement on this
and some time path and just a clear
1:07:25.680,1:07:30.640
clear roadmap on what this will look like
because now all we have schematics that show us
1:07:31.440,1:07:38.000
how every bit and piece of the monolith will
be replaced with another api um until there's
1:07:38.000,1:07:44.080
nothing left to replace um so then we'll
finally have api coverage that would be nice
1:07:46.160,1:07:57.760
yeah but um of of a bunch of sas solutions apis
at any cost this is the funny this is the funny
1:07:57.760,1:08:03.920
problem i'm writing an e-book right now villain
that um it started out as like the definitive
1:08:03.920,1:08:09.360
guide to re-platforming and it was like here's
all the things you need to consider when
1:08:09.360,1:08:13.680
when moving from one platform to the next
and so i started doing customer interviews
1:08:13.680,1:08:19.600
and i started talking to people and i went and i
looked at all of our documentation of like how we
1:08:19.600,1:08:24.960
how we go about building new new sites and all
all the discovery work we do you know we put in
1:08:24.960,1:08:28.800
hundreds of hours of discovery to make sure that
we get everything right we don't forget anything
1:08:29.440,1:08:32.800
and i started noticing this theme
of like the hours that we spend
1:08:33.680,1:08:39.280
every year on discovery for re-platforming has
gone down every year for 10 years and i'm like
1:08:39.280,1:08:44.400
why is that and when i started looking into
it it's because nobody keeps data in their
1:08:44.400,1:08:50.000
ecommerce platform anymore some of it's a plavio
some of it's at yacht post some of it's like i've
1:08:50.000,1:08:55.840
got reviews over here i've got you know i've got
crm over here i've got cdp over here and i've got
1:08:55.840,1:09:00.480
it's like literally the only thing that is
even owned by the e-commerce platform at some
1:09:00.480,1:09:06.320
organizations is the product detail page and
that has upsells from nasto on it and it has
1:09:06.320,1:09:12.000
uh you know ugc from yatpo in it and it's like
half of the experience that you are going like
1:09:12.000,1:09:17.280
maybe the cart no i take it back bolt is driving
your checkout too and you have one click on every
1:09:17.280,1:09:23.360
page there is no ecommerce platform left there's
nothing left there's nothing like the migrate
1:09:24.160,1:09:30.320
that's a specific part of the market though there
is still a very large smb market that doesn't that
1:09:30.320,1:09:34.800
doesn't do that no they don't do that magento
magento was their platform and it has their
1:09:34.800,1:09:39.360
product data and it has their stock and it has
the pricing and has to check out it has everything
1:09:39.360,1:09:47.280
they use boost erp for their erp and they're uh
good to go they're fulfilling out of the back end
1:09:47.280,1:09:52.560
of magento dude they're literally printing labels
with magento you can do that about to boost erp
1:09:52.560,1:09:58.960
by the way are they sponsoring this episode that
would be great if they were because do they even
1:09:58.960,1:10:03.520
exist i've never even heard of boost erp you never
heard boost the is is that what's called boost
1:10:04.480,1:10:12.000
boost erp the magento the magenta the erp that's
a magento extension is that true is it i've never
1:10:12.000,1:10:17.120
heard of it yeah i think it's called it's like a
french it's like a french company oh that's beast
1:10:20.080,1:10:26.800
beast i derailed i got a little excited um it's
late for villain sorry come back around sorry
1:10:28.080,1:10:34.960
yeah i'm sorry to say this but uh it's uh really
late here okay uh i have a release day tomorrow
1:10:35.680,1:10:44.080
as we've heard um where can people where can
people get huba where can they get it hyva
1:10:44.080,1:10:51.360
dot i-o and uh we're big we're big supporters of
what you're doing if in spirit and then sometime
1:10:51.360,1:10:57.600
in some future also in truth i'll i'll uh uh
we'll find a way to make it happen at least
1:10:57.600,1:11:03.120
on on the right point side of things but um hey
caitlyn maybe you could uh take some time and uh
1:11:03.120,1:11:08.320
and and take some of that hard-earned tweet money
and uh and maybe we could spin up a scholarship
1:11:08.320,1:11:13.840
for uh for a developer that's looking to
uh to get a license that's a great idea
1:11:14.800,1:11:19.200
take a little crypto earnings take a little
one of those tweets pop a tweet out for 10k
1:11:19.200,1:11:24.880
take it 50 haircut well i don't have
any crypto earnings because we're we're
1:11:37.760,1:11:41.680
if you have time phillip do you want to do a
couple more minutes after yeah we got we got
1:11:41.680,1:11:46.000
a little we got a few more minutes after villain
okay um what what an awesome time for you to spend
1:11:46.000,1:11:50.800
time with us i know it took us literal months to
make this happen and i'm sorry that it did but uh
1:11:51.680,1:11:55.120
it came at a great time and i wish the
best to you and your family man and
1:11:56.000,1:12:03.120
congratulations on all the success so far same
to you and and uh thanks for having me i'm
1:12:03.120,1:12:11.200
really glad we finally got to do this i hope
we can do it not too long from now um once more
1:12:11.200,1:12:16.800
and we can we might be able to talk about
some more future magento things i'd like
1:12:16.800,1:12:22.880
that we should we should start a podcast
called hoover talk that's not enough i don't
1:12:22.880,1:12:30.320
think that's necessary just uh just keep keep
keep mitchell going is it you think okay i am
1:12:32.400,1:12:39.200
i i think the whole community owes you guys so
much um and i i was meaning to say something
1:12:39.200,1:12:47.520
along these lines um i remember eight nine
years ago uh i was living closer nearer near
1:12:47.520,1:12:53.280
a forest and i walked my dog every day and many
of those walks were accompanied by your voices
1:12:54.400,1:13:00.240
listening to the latest of the magenta world
and so many insights and so many things that
1:13:00.240,1:13:07.920
put me into the community and made me feel
more part of that just from hearing you guys
1:13:07.920,1:13:14.480
discussing these things and i think it it goes
for so many people in the community who have been
1:13:15.360,1:13:26.640
bonded to magento by by you guys and i think um
it's awesome um and i i i know it's different
1:13:26.640,1:13:32.640
times and the community magenta community
doesn't mean the same thing exactly as it did
1:13:33.360,1:13:40.480
five years ago eight years ago but um yeah i'm
i'm happy you guys are still doing this and um
1:13:42.640,1:13:48.480
great stuff thank you thanks man thank you super
hard to get not to get emotional about it i
1:13:48.480,1:13:56.320
appreciate it yeah but uh we really appreciate
it man and uh have a good night over there um
1:13:57.040,1:14:00.560
and uh we'll talk to you soon i think
you can just close out of the browser
1:14:01.360,1:14:06.240
um right or you know what i take that
back it probably is going to want to
1:14:06.240,1:14:13.840
upload locally so you probably are just
going to want to like click up close
1:14:27.040,1:14:36.800
fun that was cool dude um you haven't asked me
what this thing is yet that i've been foreign
1:14:37.360,1:14:44.960
i know what i i'm playing with lego blocks because
is it i figured something out it's a brain hack if
1:14:44.960,1:14:50.800
i don't have something to play with i'll pick my
phone up and and if i pick my phone up then i'm
1:14:50.800,1:14:58.160
toast because i i won't i like i there's my brain
needs to do something and i i actually listen
1:14:58.160,1:15:02.800
better if i'm active if i'm playing with something
this is a little clamped for like a camera
1:15:02.800,1:15:09.200
um and this is a thing that i found that i don't
think is related at all but screws in very like in
1:15:09.200,1:15:18.080
a very satisfying way to it you ever watched the
um uh what is it the reddit uh page of satisfying
1:15:18.080,1:15:26.720
uh oddly satisfying or oddly satisfied yeah yeah
yep you know what's funny is my my kids uh watch
1:15:26.720,1:15:31.920
some like kids youtube channels that are called
oddly satisfying it's like people cutting like
1:15:31.920,1:15:38.560
kinetic sand with knives and um squishing slime
and i don't know some other stuff that's like
1:15:39.360,1:15:45.920
how is that a thing yeah have you have you
i've heard about this uh this whole slime thing
1:15:45.920,1:15:51.840
and i don't understand it at all but i i've
heard that it's i don't understand it either
1:15:53.040,1:15:57.120
it was actually i think it was bigger a little
while ago you know tj and his daughter kind of
1:15:57.120,1:16:02.800
started a little slime slime business on the
side that's right yeah that's right that's right
1:16:02.800,1:16:05.840
that's why i want to say those like
2019 they were like she was making
1:16:06.560,1:16:10.800
uh slime and kind of selling it at
like local farmers markets and stuff
1:16:11.440,1:16:18.800
right pretty dope um yeah there's like a whole
there was like a whole thing in the slime market
1:16:18.800,1:16:22.720
around like making slime that looked like things
and then you squish it and it's slime it was
1:16:23.280,1:16:29.040
like artwork almost um that's how you knew
the markets were frothy and due for a downturn
1:16:31.680,1:16:39.520
dude it's so good to talk to you man it's
a lot of fun it's like i need to talk to
1:16:39.520,1:16:43.680
you more often because when i'm not talking to
you i'm like buying nfts and and you know and
1:16:43.680,1:16:51.200
swapping you know ave and uh and sushi swap
and i'm in my own crypto world too really i
1:16:51.200,1:16:54.560
couldn't tell that to i couldn't tell that to
villain because i didn't want him to give me a
1:16:54.560,1:17:00.960
hard time about it i just ganged up on you over
it that's horrible the whole time you were on my
1:17:09.760,1:17:17.760
we already did this uh so you did you did you
actually buy some nfts oh i i was on the original
1:17:17.760,1:17:25.280
like train back in december i i have no way yeah i
have uh so i started on top shot in like november
1:17:25.280,1:17:30.000
or december and i bought i don't know i've spent
many too many thousands of dollars on top shot
1:17:30.640,1:17:36.320
um quite the i have quite the collection
there and uh and then there was a hot shot
1:17:37.120,1:17:43.440
is that like it's an nba nft that was powered
by donkey labs and um it's the one that was
1:17:43.440,1:17:48.320
sort of the pokemon go moment where like a lot
of consumers like got into it like oh these are
1:17:48.320,1:17:53.600
digital trading cards well it's actually like
it's powered by something um and then there was
1:17:53.600,1:18:01.120
a project that got launched uh that that got on my
radar on twitter um called hash masks and it was a
1:18:01.120,1:18:07.440
it was like oh this is a generative art project
and it was an nft and i was like oh my gosh we
1:18:07.440,1:18:14.320
covered generative art back two three years ago on
on future commerce so i pulled up this old episode
1:18:15.040,1:18:21.760
that uh that uh talked about cryptokitties and
i was like what i was like about that so i went
1:18:21.760,1:18:26.720
and checked out cryptokitties they were going
for like fifty thousand dollars dude that's one
1:18:26.720,1:18:32.240
of the big ones right when i saw that it was one
of the og's it was cryptokitties uh crypto punks
1:18:32.240,1:18:38.640
and one or two others um moon uh moon cats
i want to say moon cats was one the original
1:18:39.200,1:18:45.440
and like when you when when you look at that and
you look at all these projects and like there were
1:18:45.440,1:18:50.320
there were no nft projects that were launching
in like november december i looked at hash masks
1:18:50.320,1:18:54.000
and i was like i think this is going to be a
thing so i wrote a big piece for future commerce
1:18:54.000,1:18:57.840
about it and then i put my money where my mouth
is and i bought a bunch of nfts i bought all the
1:18:57.840,1:19:04.000
wrong ones i didn't buy the ones that made it um i
remember sitting with my wife on a sunday morning
1:19:05.280,1:19:08.720
and i'm sorry saturday morning and
we're sitting we're drinking coffee
1:19:08.720,1:19:15.440
and i had my thumb on open c to confirm purchase
of what of something called a board api club
1:19:16.560,1:19:22.400
and and you'll see everybody with these monkey
avatars now on twitter and uh and so there was
1:19:22.400,1:19:30.160
this drop of uh 10 000 apes i think it was and
um and they were all going for i want to say
1:19:30.160,1:19:36.880
like i forget what the original opening price was
like 0.05 ether piece and and i was like that's
1:19:36.880,1:19:40.720
it's a couple hundred bucks or something and i
had my thumb over it and jackie's like you're not
1:19:40.720,1:19:44.560
gonna buy another one of those are you and i'm
like i don't know i don't think so and she goes
1:19:45.120,1:19:49.920
she pointed at it she's like that one has your
hair you should buy that one and i was like i
1:19:49.920,1:19:55.040
don't know baby it was like 366 bucks and i'm
like i i can't see myself i don't know like i'm
1:19:55.040,1:19:59.040
at this point now that i like i investigated it
i learned a lot about it i bought a ton of them
1:19:59.600,1:20:05.040
and i was like i think i'm just gonna hold with
what i have that kaelyn is the project that that
1:20:05.040,1:20:09.600
ape that i would have bought would be worth 50 eat
right now which would be like 250 thousand dollars
1:20:10.400,1:20:19.120
so so kill me oh yeah so i have a bunch of
worthless nfts but it's been it's been a lot of
1:20:19.120,1:20:24.240
fun and jackie's an artist so she's like gotten
really deep into it to kind of like understand
1:20:25.360,1:20:33.440
you know what art means in in in a modern context
um yeah i i haven't um gotten too um into the the
1:20:33.440,1:20:40.000
nfts but i i actually heard a garyvee video
on like like an hour long video on it and um
1:20:40.800,1:20:48.000
and it was it was pretty pretty cool pretty pretty
interesting the idea of the uniqueness of like art
1:20:48.000,1:20:53.920
you know like the thing that makes an original
picasso uh valuable is the fact that it's the
1:20:53.920,1:21:01.760
original and that's authenticated in certain ways
so so like the similar idea idea and the digital
1:21:02.400,1:21:08.800
provenance is what they call it and um and
i think there's something really interesting
1:21:08.800,1:21:13.680
there i mean gary in particular you know made
like a million dollars off of selling scribbles
1:21:13.680,1:21:20.960
on as nfts so yeah right the rich could get
richer um but i do think that you know there's
1:21:20.960,1:21:25.920
hey you know i'm holding out hopes that you
know the owner of crypto sergs uh which is
1:21:25.920,1:21:31.600
one i bought into a few of is like i hope that
that guy maybe i mean listen you know maybe that
1:21:31.600,1:21:36.400
guy gets arrested as being like a famous serial
killer and then they'll be worth something one day
1:21:36.400,1:21:43.040
um because the province is like there's a story
now behind the person who created it um very few
1:21:43.040,1:21:47.200
very few few of these projects are actually going
to go much of anywhere without giant community
1:21:47.200,1:21:52.160
support which very few of them have that's the
ones that are you know going for insane amounts of
1:21:52.160,1:21:58.720
in same multiples or like these projects that
have uh tangential benefits like in mass which is
1:21:58.720,1:22:04.560
what board ape is doing you know board apes it's
basically what webb smith called a digital country
1:22:04.560,1:22:09.600
club i think that that makes a lot of sense it's
like you can only get on their discord if you own
1:22:09.600,1:22:16.160
one of those nfts you can only get um you know
you can listen to their like chill radio station
1:22:16.160,1:22:22.960
if you have one of their nfts like it is a status
symbol of some kind like whether that's the status
1:22:22.960,1:22:29.760
you want i think is debatable um but it's yeah
i think it's an interesting thing to watch and
1:22:29.760,1:22:35.920
i i definitely am keeping tabs on it because i do
think it has massive commerce implications um but
1:22:37.680,1:22:45.200
hey i mean uh it's it's crazy times man it's
wild time yeah yeah what um yeah i i've been
1:22:45.200,1:22:51.520
a little out of the loop recently so um how's
everything going future commerce i mean you guys
1:22:51.520,1:23:01.040
are out of control like out of control some of
the stuff you guys are doing and ten employees
1:23:01.040,1:23:08.480
uh raising around um are you serious yeah yeah are
we live are we recording still we're still live
1:23:08.480,1:23:15.440
man okay i'm raising around i'm not going to tell
anybody when or how much uh on here um and so uh
1:23:16.400,1:23:23.440
yeah it's it's a it's a whole thing um it's it's
gigantic um very proud of what we have there and
1:23:23.440,1:23:29.040
we've got a new project launching
in uh a few weeks time uh called 9x9
1:23:29.920,1:23:35.440
a lot of cool stuff man we've got a you know we've
got freaking tax nexus in multiple states and
1:23:36.400,1:23:41.440
payroll and ar and ap and it's very much a
business that's you know that takes a lot
1:23:41.440,1:23:48.560
of effort to run it's very hard to have a side
project yeah yeah it's crazy that's seven figs
1:23:48.560,1:23:55.520
of revenue baby crushing it are you serious
dead serious dude that's hashtag building
1:23:56.720,1:24:06.240
building public um it is wild right it's
wild insane it is my tax bill is also insane
1:24:09.200,1:24:13.520
so i mean you've got to be well i guess we'll
talk more offline about the future plans but
1:24:13.520,1:24:19.600
i mean you've got to be oh we've got some
plans we got more time into it rocket fuel
1:24:20.320,1:24:25.920
you know we've we've we're we're doing some
uh some huge stuff you know there's there's
1:24:25.920,1:24:31.200
actually i do want to talk a little bit about the
problem that needs to be solved in trade media
1:24:31.200,1:24:40.080
um if e-commerce is getting bigger uh
why isn't the the total number of like
1:24:40.880,1:24:47.120
content consumers in e-commerce growing
and i have some proof points there uh
1:24:47.840,1:24:54.160
you know at right point i i govern a pretty
large performance marketing budget and um
1:24:54.160,1:24:58.800
you know i i sit in a part of the org where i'm
part of you know part of what i do is oversee
1:24:58.800,1:25:04.880
demand gen and anytime somebody says they govern
a budget you know that that's a healthy budget you
1:25:04.880,1:25:10.000
know they're not they're not running a budget
we spend we spend some money governing that
1:25:10.000,1:25:16.080
yeah we govern it we don't we you know we
don't deploy a budget or run a budget we govern
1:25:16.080,1:25:23.840
the budget government um yeah yeah so yeah
it's a it is a very uh it's an eye-opening
1:25:23.840,1:25:30.080
thing that i have insight into every single
retail trade publication how big their list is
1:25:30.080,1:25:34.880
how much influence they have what their open rates
are what their click-through rates are and i know
1:25:34.880,1:25:39.520
what content they're producing and they're all
doing the same shtick they're reporting on what's
1:25:39.520,1:25:45.600
happening right now with very few exceptions
um emarketer might be one of the exceptions
1:25:45.600,1:25:53.120
but in reality you know retail dive retail brew
nrfs list like they're all addressing the same
1:25:53.120,1:25:59.440
and fifty thousand people that's it and
and if you if you look at like you know
1:26:00.480,1:26:04.880
what is what i forget what the number is but
e-commerce penetration is growing you know
1:26:04.880,1:26:11.920
year over year we have there's there's very few
people to hire in our space we we we lack jobs
1:26:11.920,1:26:16.000
uh e-commerce is going to continue to grow
and it's going to be boom town pretty soon
1:26:16.000,1:26:22.640
like we need more content consumers in for
trade and and business media in e-commerce
1:26:22.640,1:26:28.080
and you have to go create those you can't
just go find them these people don't listen
1:26:28.080,1:26:33.200
to professional business content they're not
entrepreneurs they're people in order to cash
1:26:33.200,1:26:38.800
in order management and return logistics and
supply chain and you have to create content
1:26:38.800,1:26:45.600
specific to what they care about and only that and
and so the way that we'll succeed is when we get
1:26:45.600,1:26:49.680
in front of those people with something that they
actually care about until then they're listening
1:26:49.680,1:26:55.600
to joe rogan pretty much non-stop on repeat um
and you have to compete with that like that's
1:26:55.600,1:26:59.680
what you're competing with and and that's where
the absence of like business media is not fun
1:27:00.560,1:27:07.760
there's no fun and there's no like voice or tone
it's in it it's so interesting because with the um
1:27:08.960,1:27:15.200
not e-commerce way but with the bitcoin stuff
i've been i've gone from previously listening
1:27:15.200,1:27:22.560
to like comedy podcasts and stuff like that and
really kind of unplugging from like work like
1:27:22.560,1:27:29.040
like learning podcast which which for many years
i was i was spending a lot of time doing that um
1:27:29.600,1:27:34.960
and um so it's kind of in this like unplugging
stage and then just recently like like two weeks
1:27:34.960,1:27:40.160
ago i've started listening to podcasts and i'll
start this net and then all and then there's i
1:27:40.160,1:27:47.600
don't know have six or seven that i'm and and i'm
like i'm spending hours so i'm like a new content
1:27:47.600,1:27:55.200
consumer in in in this particular you know niche
of the bitcoin stuff um and i'm just listening to
1:27:55.200,1:28:02.560
hours a day of this stuff it's like i'm like fired
up on it and and and i've sort of stopped like
1:28:02.560,1:28:08.880
listening to the kind of entertainment oriented
stuff yeah um and and i'm i'm just in this weird
1:28:08.880,1:28:15.360
like like stage where i'm just wanting to to learn
but it's funny you mentioned that because it's um
1:28:17.040,1:28:23.040
some of those dynamics right of somebody
getting into a certain um profession like
1:28:23.040,1:28:28.640
business oriented work wearing a professional
type of content and then eating it up you know
1:28:29.520,1:28:40.960
and and and i'll say um there's a myth that
goes around too of the uh well business
1:28:40.960,1:28:48.560
media took a hit during you know post pandemic
because people didn't have a commute right um
1:28:50.800,1:28:57.280
like i would dare anyone listening to this uh to
open up their phone uh and maybe you too and like
1:28:57.280,1:29:02.000
i want you to go to your screen time and you tell
me what your screen time is right now oh yeah it's
1:29:02.000,1:29:07.520
gonna you open it up gonna be ugly it's ugly right
like you're spending 10 11 hours a day looking at
1:29:07.520,1:29:13.920
stuff on your phone it's that you just don't have
like we have a and we're incredibly attuned now
1:29:13.920,1:29:19.600
to things that are boring and we don't have time
for it because we don't have to be bored anymore
1:29:19.600,1:29:24.320
humanity doesn't have to be bored and that
is that is what you're competing with it's
1:29:24.320,1:29:29.520
not that it's not that people don't have a
commute it's that there are things that are
1:29:29.520,1:29:34.640
infinitely more interesting in other channels
for them to go pay attention to and there is
1:29:34.640,1:29:42.080
like plenty of advice to be found of like how to
run your email better on tick tock than there is
1:29:42.080,1:29:46.160
in whatever podcast you subscribe to that
clavio's sponsoring and by the way i love
1:29:46.160,1:29:51.840
clavio and they sponsor future commerce so please
keep doing business with us go to clayview.com
1:29:57.120,1:30:00.880
that's one of the that's one of the challenges
that we have right now is that you have to
1:30:00.880,1:30:05.520
compete with the joe rogans of the world um you
have to compete that's what you're competing for
1:30:05.520,1:30:12.960
attention with right so let's yeah let's let's
solve that and we can create prolific consumers
1:30:12.960,1:30:19.120
it uh in trade media if it had something worth
listening to i'm not talking about actionable
1:30:19.120,1:30:27.440
insights i'm talking about like humor and fun
and high concept like we we lack high concept
1:30:27.440,1:30:35.040
shows here like do you i listen to a podcast it's
absolutely preposterous um and it's it's uh uh
1:30:35.600,1:30:47.040
it is the show is a mock draft of like films with
a very specific like shtick to them it's like only
1:30:47.040,1:30:54.480
films that featured jesus christ what are the top
seven films you know and you know films where a
1:30:54.480,1:30:58.400
character is killed in the first 10 minutes what
are the top ten you know film or they're in the
1:30:58.400,1:31:02.960
first scene so then they go through those actual
and then they'll like argue about it for i'm not
1:31:02.960,1:31:08.160
for four and a half hours kaelin i'll listen
to like that podcast on a run because it's fun
1:31:09.200,1:31:14.240
and that's the that's the problem right like i
i listen to this other show where a guy pretends
1:31:14.240,1:31:22.640
to be uh george lucas and his co-host on the
show pretends to be wado who was the muppet who
1:31:22.640,1:31:28.800
like imprisoned both anakin skywalker and his
mom and the two of them pretend like they're on
1:31:28.800,1:31:34.800
a game show interviewing celebrities like it's
called george lucas presents i believe and it's
1:31:34.800,1:31:41.120
a comedy satire show it is preposterous but we
don't have that kind of like high concept humor
1:31:41.120,1:31:48.080
in trade media anyway it's really interesting
i i was listening to a couple of um like comedy
1:31:48.080,1:31:58.240
podcasts where it's like just a single guy
ranting for by himself on a podcast and uh
1:31:58.240,1:32:04.000
like bill burr has one you know and uh and
those are great anyway monologue shows are great
1:32:04.800,1:32:09.280
yeah and it's it's kind of like i'm
i'm sitting there and i'm going it's so
1:32:10.560,1:32:16.400
we talk about you know sort of podcast as
an a as a medium as a media as a medium
1:32:17.040,1:32:21.360