magetalk 228 captions

0:00:01.760,0:00:09.600
um trying to not use profanity um but um oh we 
appreciate that yeah we like our clean rating

0:00:09.600,0:00:14.880
on me on mage talk we we don't want to lose our 
clean reading i mean phillip because it's like

0:00:14.880,0:00:20.320
a sailor when i like like when i talk before you 
press record it's it's bleep this and bleep that

0:00:20.320,0:00:29.840
does i mean all he does is just every second word 
yeah he's cussing like a like a sailor a sailor

0:00:40.000,0:00:43.840
the guy the guy tweets one tweet

0:00:50.000,0:00:57.840
that's he takes that twenty thousand dollar check 
to the bank done bang next one daddy daddy daddy

0:01:04.880,0:01:07.200
that's the real reason you 
stayed so long in costa rica

0:01:08.800,0:01:15.360
this is true yeah just um yeah too much like it's 
a tax play he's he's like trying to he's he's

0:01:15.360,0:01:21.840
like trying to optimize his tax in situations 
like how if i live three months of the year in

0:01:21.840,0:01:27.360
in costa rica and four months of the year and 
somewhere else do i have to pay taxes that's the

0:01:27.360,0:01:35.200
question you get into bitcoin you get you get some 
time in latin america and you really start working

0:01:35.200,0:01:42.480
on that tax bill i knew i missed something 
you go and stay in like the the world's most

0:01:42.480,0:01:49.760
ecological country like australia first country 
worldwide that was going to be uh carbon neutral

0:01:49.760,0:01:56.960
you're gonna stay there yeah and you're gonna 
spend all your money burning the whole planet

0:01:56.960,0:02:03.200
down with your cryptocurrency it's it's bizarre 
on so many levels literally the last like

0:02:03.200,0:02:12.320
five days in costa rica i just got wildly into 
bitcoin like listening to like hours of podcasts

0:02:14.240,0:02:20.080
and then they send them back they're like uh 
america can you take this guy back please please

0:02:20.080,0:02:27.280
get this guy get this guy off our hands you 
are single-handedly killing their uh co2 yeah

0:02:27.280,0:02:36.720
neutrality yeah is it um the carbon neutrality 
isn't uh greenland uh don't they run

0:02:36.720,0:02:44.240
or um is it greenland what is that country that 
runs off of underground heat they have i see

0:02:47.120,0:02:56.320
i'm such a cave what's that yeah is that aren't 
they like 100 geothermal and wouldn't it be

0:02:56.320,0:03:01.680
great if we could just repurpose all that useful 
energy into you know just useless transactions

0:03:01.680,0:03:08.240
on the blockchain that has a theoretical value 
that we've all agreed to might be great you know

0:03:08.240,0:03:15.920
i i could get into this but unfortunately yeah we 
really talk about we need to talk about uh who who

0:03:28.960,0:03:32.640
i thought you guys saddled this in the last 
episode we didn't yeah it's been like six

0:03:32.640,0:03:37.040
months since the last episode who knows when 
who knows what he's what's even happening

0:03:37.680,0:03:43.360
hiva i would profess to have first-hand knowledge 
of java but i haven't touched it in months uh and

0:03:43.360,0:03:50.400
it was me playing with a github repo that was 
like not much of anything yeah yeah what do you

0:03:50.400,0:03:56.400
got what do you got these days it's it's it's 
single-handedly like revitalized the entirety

0:03:56.400,0:04:01.760
of the magento community or what was left of it 
villain tell us what's what's good in java land

0:04:02.720,0:04:09.040
what's good um well let's call it to start 
with okay otherwise we'll offend the fins

0:04:12.240,0:04:16.000
they're already offended there's nothing more 
that we could do to offend them they're already

0:04:16.000,0:04:21.280
offended but the only thing i need the only thing 
i i have to know is do you hear people pronounce

0:04:21.280,0:04:28.080
it wrong all the time or has everybody yeah you 
mostly probably you love it okay he's you're not

0:04:28.080,0:04:33.280
tired out by it you're gonna correct it correct 
the record i appreciate that that's i would too

0:04:33.280,0:04:37.760
if i was the creator i would correct the record 
non-stop i think that's i think that's the way

0:04:37.760,0:04:45.440
to go i mean i i chose this knowingly that this 
was going to be an issue for some people um but

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um i like the name too much and as i i think 
explained before there's a marketing there's

0:04:54.080,0:05:02.080
there's a marketing game there where i i started 
marketing um communication marketing and then

0:05:03.120,0:05:09.760
one of the first lessons the the more often 
someone repeats your your brand name the better

0:05:09.760,0:05:18.480
it sticks so when you spend a good 30 seconds 
on the last episode pronouncing high value i was

0:05:20.480,0:05:31.440
i was satisfied no um it's um it was a conscious 
choice i knew and it finishes the the hardest

0:05:32.080,0:05:37.840
language i came across having lived there for 
four years i think i i know about 25 words

0:05:38.880,0:05:48.800
still today but um yeah it really resonates 
with me it means good and undesirable and

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uh yeah it's it's it's kind of the soul of what 
i'm trying to accomplish like it's not it was

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someone who thought it was kind of arrogant to 
say that your company is is good or your product

0:06:04.000,0:06:09.760
or you are good which is not the intention 
or or the soul of what's in there is that

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we're drawing trying to do good and trying to 
craft um the best possible product that we can

0:06:18.000,0:06:22.560
and uh have an extra enjoyable experience 
there and do the best that we can

0:06:23.120,0:06:33.520
and we've got so incredibly lazy in and well 
not lazy but i personally think we we went in

0:06:33.520,0:06:40.080
kind of a strange direction uh in the e-commerce 
technology world or the the web world in in

0:06:40.080,0:06:49.520
general and i'm trying to bring back some of that 
pure old-school hp mouth css performance quality

0:06:49.520,0:06:58.240
and um it's incredibly much fun to work with that 
with those tools and then to enrich that with

0:06:59.280,0:07:03.600
tools like javascript instead 
of starting out with the tool

0:07:04.320,0:07:12.240
and starting from the highest possible complexity 
and the hardest tools you can pick which are the

0:07:12.240,0:07:19.840
hardest to optimize for performance i need the 
most uh the most knowledge to or or the most

0:07:20.960,0:07:29.360
skills to actually pull that off well so to to 
build a really good web shop with javascript

0:07:29.360,0:07:37.840
only or a spa or pwa will be pw is not the 
right term but to pull off a really good spa

0:07:38.720,0:07:44.560
a single page application you need money 
and time and skill people and that's one

0:07:44.560,0:07:49.600
percent of the ecommerce world so uh i don't 
think that should be less than one percent

0:07:51.440,0:07:54.480
yeah they don't have money they don't have 
time and they don't have skilled people

0:07:54.480,0:07:59.600
unless you know you kailyn will drop a tweet 
that'll hire them one it'll make them a cool 25k

0:08:02.720,0:08:07.920
i feel like it's the same seven people every 
three months but that's that's beside the point

0:08:07.920,0:08:12.560
we just recycle them that's what i think that's 
what i actually believe that but we're gonna

0:08:15.120,0:08:20.320
feel like he's flipped the same developers seven 
or eight times easily but i'm gonna it's all right

0:08:20.320,0:08:25.760
back to back to villain so it's it is it's only 
one percent and i think that you know it's a shame

0:08:25.760,0:08:31.760
that the this idea of best practice of the way 
that we deploy e-commerce applications or this

0:08:31.760,0:08:38.320
like future casting of the of the way e-commerce 
uh the trend line of like the style of development

0:08:38.320,0:08:45.680
uh for div for deploying well any application 
never mind ecommerce but you know it's like oh i'm

0:08:45.680,0:08:52.640
building a simple website like i should definitely 
build that in 95 javascript um that makes perfect

0:08:52.640,0:08:59.360
sense um i think that that's been a mistake 
that you know has led to more harm than good

0:08:59.360,0:09:05.360
um and yeah so so so that for you was that just 
first principles it was like let's start with

0:09:05.920,0:09:11.040
like why like you know what what makes a 
good developer experience and an enjoyable

0:09:11.040,0:09:18.000
developer experience that solves problems 
that we all have that kind of the yeah well

0:09:18.000,0:09:25.680
first of all um this this was all by accident so 
to say i built a tool for myself i i was going to

0:09:25.680,0:09:36.240
build a webshop for my wife and that still didn't 
happen um husband of the year classic developer

0:09:37.040,0:09:43.680
i needed to do this so i built a framework built 
an entire ecosystem recorded 19 podcasts yeah i

0:09:43.680,0:09:48.480
haven't i haven't uh done that yet also by 
the way honey we're not going on vacation

0:09:48.480,0:09:52.400
uh tomorrow because i have to ship something 
so we're gonna go on vacation two days from now

0:09:53.280,0:09:58.320
yeah sorry go ahead go ahead go ahead go ahead so 
you're gonna build something for your wife i love

0:09:58.320,0:10:05.840
that this came out of a use case that you had this 
is great well i battled the front-end framework

0:10:06.720,0:10:14.160
the default magento framework um for for 
the magenta 2 front-end for five years

0:10:14.160,0:10:20.400
um the last two years specifically on 
performance i know how much time and

0:10:20.400,0:10:26.960
money you can sink into that front end to make 
it perform and it's it's getting harder and

0:10:28.320,0:10:34.480
it's it keeps getting harder and one of 
the reasons is that the tech stack is is uh

0:10:35.280,0:10:40.560
outdated and it's there's also already 
too much javascript in there um and the

0:10:40.560,0:10:44.960
way well let's not go into that but that's 
that's that was let's let's leave that there

0:10:46.240,0:10:52.240
and the proposed solution was pwa which 
would be the holy grail of performance and

0:10:52.960,0:11:02.880
developer experience and i haven't seen that 
in the past years i worked at interginet this

0:11:04.240,0:11:07.280
german agency up till the beginning of this year

0:11:08.880,0:11:18.320
and shout out to them by the way who made 
all the whole hoover thing possible um but

0:11:18.880,0:11:23.920
i worked mostly the past two years with 
them to optimize front-end performance

0:11:23.920,0:11:30.160
and i've seen there let's write other solutions 
first he had deity which is now called falcon

0:11:31.520,0:11:40.000
based on react then pwa studio came off the ground 
or got got started and few storefronts came and

0:11:41.120,0:11:48.000
some other bit smaller initiatives game and 
all of those are javascript first um and

0:11:49.600,0:11:53.520
integernet is one of the most highly skilled

0:11:53.520,0:12:01.120
agencies um they're they're not the largest 
one but they're very renowned for their

0:12:01.120,0:12:08.160
technical capabilities um these guys are brilliant 
they had the hardest time to adopt to pwa

0:12:08.880,0:12:17.280
this javascript first content and i think 
that's typical for our ecosystem i think um

0:12:18.800,0:12:25.680
it takes a special kind of developer that that 
is able to work with the javascript framework um

0:12:27.360,0:12:33.200
they're yeah it's uh i think a lot of union 
developers now get started in that world they

0:12:33.200,0:12:43.600
skip the whole html uh base fundamentals um and 
just dive straight into these frameworks and you

0:12:43.600,0:12:51.840
think it's fantastic the way we thought that flash 
applications were fantastic 15 years ago um and um

0:12:55.280,0:13:02.400
and for me that's not the yeah that's not the kind 
of the kind of work i want to do and the kind of

0:13:02.400,0:13:11.680
system so i want to work with um i like the purity 
of html css and and uh the added capabilities and

0:13:11.680,0:13:19.840
the extra flavor you can put on top of that 
with javascript to enrich the ux and to help

0:13:19.840,0:13:27.760
tackle some accessibility issues that can't be 
solved with our javascript but in the basis your

0:13:27.760,0:13:34.400
browser is capable of doing all these things that 
these javascript frameworks are letting you do

0:13:34.400,0:13:40.560
but without the one to two megabyte of framework 
that ships with it that you all need to download

0:13:40.560,0:13:47.200
before your browser is able to comprehend the code 
that you're shipping so first it needs to load in

0:13:47.200,0:13:50.960
this framework and then your code on top 
of that and then your browser needs to

0:13:52.160,0:13:58.320
find out what everything does and then build you a 
page and if you just check the html and css with a

0:13:58.320,0:14:06.320
bit of javascript your browser ready to go like 
they can instantly build a page for you um and

0:14:08.000,0:14:15.200
yeah to come back to the magento ecosystem um i 
think we're dealing with at least ninety percent

0:14:15.200,0:14:23.760
php developers that um um very highly skilled 
in backhand i think front end has always been

0:14:24.320,0:14:31.760
a bit behind in magenta world and there are some 
outliners agencies that do really well and from

0:14:31.760,0:14:42.000
them um but i think the complexity of e-commerce 
and and magento has always attracted a technically

0:14:42.640,0:14:48.480
skilled back-end developers you can have a lot 
of overlap that become full stack developers

0:14:48.480,0:14:52.640
it will signal some front-end and just the 
front-end developer always has had a hard time

0:14:53.200,0:14:58.080
working with a magento front-end because it 
gets quite technical very fast and especially

0:14:58.080,0:15:03.200
with this these these systems that 
magenta 2 came with where you need to

0:15:05.840,0:15:14.960
everything php xml five javascript frameworks and 
just to render a checkbox on your checkout page

0:15:18.480,0:15:26.880
and so i i was very much living this 
problem that was my my work life and

0:15:26.880,0:15:31.360
then my wife asked me hey can you build me 
a webshop i was like yeah absolutely but

0:15:34.480,0:15:42.320
um i'm trying to not use profanity um but um oh 
we appreciate that yeah we like our clean rating

0:15:42.320,0:15:47.600
on me on mage talk we we don't want to lose 
our clean reading i mean phillip cuss is like

0:15:47.600,0:15:53.120
a sailor when i like like when i talk before you 
press record it's it's bleep this and bleep that

0:16:03.120,0:16:06.880
light comes on i clean up the 
act he cleans at the act i

0:16:08.960,0:16:18.000
this is a family show it's a family this 
is a family show um so um to rephrase that

0:16:18.000,0:16:26.080
in my mind before it before i speak the words 
um i didn't i wasn't too enthusiastic about

0:16:26.080,0:16:30.800
building a magenta to shop in my spare time 
now i'm just trying to think in my head

0:16:30.800,0:16:34.880
what was the cuss word he was trying to 
say that's all i can think now no not

0:16:45.440,0:16:50.160
it is a bleeping web shop i've worked with 
magento for a deck i was saying that with

0:16:50.160,0:16:57.440
magenta one i was like you know freaking mage 
mail why does it have to rewrite this class

0:16:57.440,0:17:02.720
why do i have to come in here and rename this 
every freaking time friggin mage man what was

0:17:04.640,0:17:10.640
i'm not allowed to talk about it never mind yeah 
class rewrites were fantastic and i'm just gonna

0:17:11.440,0:17:20.080
yeah i for one miss them i will say i will say on 
the record class rewrites worthy because the thing

0:17:20.080,0:17:26.640
that built the the empire that is you know now 
commerce hero that you know you know stands on

0:17:26.640,0:17:35.840
on the on the ruins the archaeological ruins of 
of prior businesses like good good good links

0:17:36.640,0:17:45.840
should we and and class rewrites is what paved the 
way it was the precursor it was like the the three

0:17:54.080,0:17:59.280
are all funded by class rewriting it's kind of 
true i mean when you think about it i if class

0:17:59.280,0:18:05.360
rewrites didn't exist there would have been 
no need to create like a standalone like stack

0:18:05.360,0:18:11.600
exchange just for class rewrites like that was the 
entirety of an entire generation of stack exchange

0:18:12.880,0:18:19.600
answers wherein i made my career um i made 
a career out of answering stack exchange

0:18:19.600,0:18:24.320
questions and kailyn made a career out of 
making money very different career paths

0:18:27.120,0:18:34.080
selling my answers uh as product as 
product like uh roadmap maybe we should

0:18:34.080,0:18:41.840
call they ask the question that'll be a hundred 
dollars yeah and he puts up a tweet 20 grand bang

0:18:44.480,0:18:50.000
the hardest part of development is like googling 
something about magento and still finding magenta

0:18:50.000,0:18:54.880
one answers did you do that is the hardest 
part you're right that literally nobody wants

0:18:55.440,0:19:01.600
um and it's kind of amazing i i'm pretty 
sure you know modius still to this day

0:19:01.600,0:19:06.960
gets a hundred thousand points a month just on 
old magenta one answers and there's you know

0:19:06.960,0:19:12.080
we have some people in in the community 
um who who are keeping it alive too um

0:19:12.080,0:19:16.480
with the uh the support of the legacy software 
so uh who am i to say that that's good or bad

0:19:17.040,0:19:22.560
um but when you're so you go to solve this by 
the way if i could interject something villain

0:19:22.560,0:19:30.640
the it's it's really interesting to me to watch 
this come around full circle 12 years in in

0:19:30.640,0:19:39.120
to the magenta world because my very first magento 
deployment ever was in uh let's say january 2009

0:19:39.840,0:19:50.640
and we deployed it as a cart and checkout 
only um we wrote a module to be able to

0:19:50.640,0:20:01.520
uh take an add to cart action from a url and 
we had a static site and it was the static site

0:20:01.520,0:20:08.560
was generated from a zen framework application 
that we wrote like we've come forward it's still

0:20:08.560,0:20:15.600
life and it still scores 100 points and it still 
gets 100 in the lighthouse that's right uh and and

0:20:15.600,0:20:20.400
and you know what's amazing is like we come we we 
went full circle through a hole like let's create

0:20:20.400,0:20:24.800
everything as a javascript application and then 
oh crap what about server-side rendering you guys

0:20:24.800,0:20:29.600
that's important um and then we went full 
circle back around to static site generation

0:20:29.600,0:20:35.760
and you know here we are um talking about it 
you know handcrafted html all over again um

0:20:37.200,0:20:43.920
it's a what a time to be alive it's 
um it's been neat for me to see like

0:20:43.920,0:20:52.880
um people like using uh hula in the wild um that 
sounds funny to say it like that um that but

0:20:52.880,0:20:58.000
like like when when you first had told me about 
the project villain i was like oh you know cool

0:20:58.000,0:21:03.200
like you know people will tell me about things 
they're working on oh i started this thing cool

0:21:03.200,0:21:08.080
cool cool um and i'm always you know i'm always 
like oh that's great you know hopefully it works

0:21:08.080,0:21:14.480
out but nine times out of ten it doesn't really 
go too far and then you know i'm i'm talking to

0:21:14.480,0:21:21.360
developers you know here and there on um as i'm 
you know doing doing my thing doing what i do

0:21:22.080,0:21:28.240
and like i'll hear from somebody who i i don't 
even know just you know a magento developer

0:21:28.240,0:21:33.920
somewhere and they're like they're like yeah like 
i started using uh hoover and and it's like made

0:21:33.920,0:21:39.840
me totally re-energized about my job you know and 
i talk to people all the time about their jobs and

0:21:39.840,0:21:44.880
like having a job that's frustrating working 
on something that's frustrating sucks a lot of

0:21:44.880,0:21:49.520
your energy out you know and i call out like i'm 
hearing from multiple people going like oh this

0:21:49.520,0:21:56.000
has really made me excited again about you know 
what i do and i'm just like oh i thought this was

0:21:56.000,0:22:02.640
just about my buddies like fun little project and 
it's like it's neat to see how it's developing and

0:22:02.640,0:22:10.080
picking up steam and picking up an ecosystem and 
really like making you know people's lives better

0:22:10.080,0:22:18.320
you know in that in that way so um you know how 
this is how you know when it's become pervasive

0:22:18.320,0:22:25.840
is when i start seeing job postings that 
say 10 years hoover experience required

0:22:26.560,0:22:31.680
that's when you know it's reached a critical 
mass that's where you know there's some marketing

0:22:31.680,0:22:38.000
there's some uh ecom director somewhere that was 
told you gotta go with this and they say we want

0:22:38.000,0:22:47.600
10 years of it darn it yeah and yeah a masters 
of computer science and and 10 years of hoover

0:22:50.000,0:22:51.120
i have to wonder why

0:22:53.520,0:23:02.320
is there a like theoretically how how tied to uh 
yeah how how dependent is this on on magento and

0:23:02.320,0:23:09.440
the success of magento in the future um i i have 
to believe that there is you know a case to be

0:23:09.440,0:23:15.840
made to simplify other front-end development 
pipelines and and to have more performance

0:23:15.840,0:23:21.520
that's not javascript and headless oriented or 
headless required um what would say you to that

0:23:21.520,0:23:28.000
like what's what's the what's your sense of 
of the sustainability of magento in into the

0:23:28.000,0:23:36.160
future considering that you know the large bulk 
of magento deployments were open source right um

0:23:38.080,0:23:43.520
what's what what's what's your what's your outlook 
on the sustainability of magento as a product

0:23:46.560,0:23:52.880
um then you're talking about 
the open source monolith

0:23:56.000,0:23:56.500
um

0:23:59.440,0:24:09.280
yeah this this is of course for us a really 
really important important topic um and

0:24:12.480,0:24:23.200
let me think um we were working on securing that 
future for us but also for our merchants and the

0:24:23.200,0:24:36.160
agencies we work with um and um what can i say 
we're we're making plans of our own so to say um

0:24:38.960,0:24:43.120
we're very much i i am very much 
hoping that adobe's ready to

0:24:43.680,0:24:55.200
um not not too far away in the future um let go 
of magento as as as an open source product um and

0:24:57.520,0:25:03.920
we're talking with the magenta association 
who has the ambition to take over the platform

0:25:06.880,0:25:14.000
i have a lot of ideas of what 
it would look like to fork

0:25:14.800,0:25:23.280
magento and build build a company 
around that and enable the community to

0:25:26.880,0:25:29.840
claim back ownership over 
the product and be able to

0:25:31.040,0:25:43.200
um build on magento again or to build out and 
um bring bring back a lot of that energy um i'm

0:25:45.680,0:25:52.240
i'm not sure if the association 
has the right tools to do this

0:25:52.240,0:25:57.600
because they're dependent on adobe 
they wouldn't necessarily need to

0:25:57.600,0:26:03.440
be dependent on adobe but the current 
situation is that uh adobe of course um

0:26:04.480,0:26:12.320
founded them and funds them for for a 
large chart for quite a substantial um

0:26:14.480,0:26:29.120
part or percentage um so the association is um 
is left to what adobe adobe thinks is right to

0:26:29.120,0:26:33.360
do with with with the platform and it's in 
there as well and they're right because they

0:26:33.360,0:26:39.920
paid a fair amount of money for magento and 
they're using it in the way that's best for them

0:26:42.400,0:26:47.600
it's it's been communicated 
quite clearly that for them

0:26:49.760,0:26:57.040
the future of magento s adobe commerce which 
is an adobe product which lives in their adobe

0:26:57.040,0:27:11.600
ecosystem so how atomic adobe commerce is going to 
look in one two four years is very different from

0:27:11.600,0:27:18.240
what magento looks like uh i i have to interject 
just two things there real quick i i think that

0:27:18.800,0:27:25.840
so you said securing the future right and you said 
sort of building it back um you said you know kind

0:27:25.840,0:27:33.120
of re re reinvigorating the magento you know what 
what what made magento great and not saying that

0:27:33.760,0:27:39.120
better that's what i was going to say he sort of 
said build back better which is which was you know

0:27:39.120,0:27:45.840
papa joe uh was his uh platform i also heard uh 
make magento great again but that's another thing

0:27:45.840,0:27:53.680
um but there's a there was another there was 
another thing there that i think is sort of the

0:27:55.040,0:28:01.280
i'd say it's the association right the association 
is supposed to be this you know uh run by the

0:28:01.280,0:28:08.960
community for the community but there's not like 
the the the the sustenance like the ability for

0:28:08.960,0:28:14.320
the association to sustain itself is actually 
quite dependent on an influx of dollars that

0:28:14.320,0:28:20.720
either comes from partners or from adobe so it's 
not quite the community and i think that that's

0:28:20.720,0:28:29.360
the the sort of conundrum of uh you know the the 
association or non-profit not not-for-profit model

0:28:29.360,0:28:35.520
uh that they adopted which requires like 
some pretty structured governance that you

0:28:35.520,0:28:42.320
know requires a lot of funds um and and that's 
you know sort of just where we find ourselves

0:28:42.320,0:28:50.000
i find it shocking and this is no way of criticism 
love adobe thank thank god for them uh don't sue

0:28:50.000,0:28:58.000
me please um uh but i find it shocking that the 
company that professes to own creativity of every

0:28:58.000,0:29:03.600
kind in every channel the company that powers 
oscar award-winning films to be made and grammy

0:29:03.600,0:29:08.960
award-winning albums to be made and the company 
that provides you know every every visual piece

0:29:08.960,0:29:15.600
of media that you see from film uh and and 
podcasts and influencer to you know freaking

0:29:15.600,0:29:20.400
apps that you run on your phone to make you know 
social media posts with to like every single part

0:29:20.400,0:29:26.240
of creativity in our culture is touched by a piece 
of software that adobe owns why could this not be

0:29:26.800,0:29:32.720
why could we not reimagine magento to be the 
most creative tool for commerce that exists in

0:29:32.720,0:29:37.760
the world it's been three years and you know what 
we have instead it's the same product that it was

0:29:37.760,0:29:46.080
a few years ago with a little extra put on it to 
kind of you know fix some uh uh i don't know it's

0:29:46.080,0:29:51.600
it just doesn't it's it's yeah it's a big it's 
a big lost opportunity right it's it's it's not

0:29:51.600,0:29:58.000
water that's not what their why their focus is um 
their their focus i think is not in the monolith

0:29:58.000,0:30:03.840
their focus is on building everything that 
you just mentioned like the wildest creativity

0:30:03.840,0:30:10.240
will be possible within their suit of products 
that live in adobe so you'll have adobe products

0:30:10.240,0:30:17.680
that give you wild creativity that just deploy 
something in your pwa app that runs on apis only

0:30:18.320,0:30:24.480
um so so that's where their focus is and 
that's the kind of customers they want to serve

0:30:25.280,0:30:39.840
and uh i think the spirit of magento is is what 
a lot of people um that that formed that spirit

0:30:39.840,0:30:46.560
at adobe or magento and then adobe they're not 
around anymore they've been reincarnated as hoover

0:30:49.280,0:30:53.600
that's kind of true that's the excitement today 
that's where i see the excitement in the community

0:30:53.600,0:30:59.520
kaelyn you know you know this you know it's 
true yeah there is there is a there is a level

0:30:59.520,0:31:05.920
you know i you guys are going to hate this but 
i i see this interesting parallel in the bitcoin

0:31:06.480,0:31:18.320
oh my god no in the sense that um with with open 
source so like all these decentralized protocols

0:31:18.320,0:31:25.360
are open source by by nature and um and so there 
are these thriving open source communities right

0:31:26.080,0:31:35.520
and it it actually it's weird it's weird because 
i feel like in e-commerce to a large extent sas um

0:31:35.520,0:31:42.800
well e-commerce on the web in general like sas is 
kind of like one as a business model for for uh to

0:31:42.800,0:31:51.600
a large extent like there's so many issues with um 
security and it's almost like in some sense like

0:31:53.200,0:31:59.040
the open sort like i like i'm thinking back to 
those earlier days and i think that show me show

0:31:59.040,0:32:06.640
me one open source organization that has thrived 
over a series of decades that didn't have a bdfl

0:32:06.640,0:32:14.320
at the helm right why why is laravel as popular 
as it is is because it has taylor otwell

0:32:14.320,0:32:20.640
why is uh tailwind as as prevalent as it 
is because it has adam wathen right why

0:32:20.640,0:32:26.160
is right why did linux become so uh 
pervasive is because they had linus torvalds

0:32:26.160,0:32:32.960
you cannot have a fully decentralized organization 
that is fully autonomous and flat that ever

0:32:32.960,0:32:39.280
gets any amount of work done without becoming 
infighting and inviting and and tribal amongst

0:32:39.280,0:32:44.080
its own core members look what happened to the 
php working group look what's happened to uh

0:32:45.360,0:32:52.240
others that shall not be named like i we have a 
i think by nature open source is an ideal that

0:32:52.240,0:32:58.320
is best applied to people that have extraordinary 
vision and do you know why hoover is successful is

0:32:58.320,0:33:01.440
because we have someone who had extraordinary 
vision trying to solve a real problem without

0:33:01.440,0:33:07.680
having to you know with you know and and created 
something that like that went out in search of

0:33:07.680,0:33:15.200
of of uh solving a problem that exists in the 
world without having to consult 400 other people's

0:33:15.200,0:33:19.440
input including you know people that you know 
providing capital financing to make it happen

0:33:19.440,0:33:24.480
because that's how we had magento 2 come around 
you know it's like we're trying to gain consensus

0:33:24.480,0:33:30.480
nothing great in this world comes about because 
of extreme consensus right that's that's just

0:33:30.480,0:33:39.840
the case right well yeah including bitcoin 
that's because satoshi i is a godman child who

0:33:41.760,0:33:46.080
i think the decentralized consensus thing 
is really fascinating but i wasn't i wasn't

0:33:46.080,0:33:52.640
meaning to to sidetrack with that it was more oh 
i'm the one who signed us no you go on i'm sorry

0:33:52.640,0:33:56.320
no no that was that was that was that was 
a great point and i think that william

0:33:56.960,0:34:02.160
does fall under that category of like 
when you have an open source project

0:34:02.160,0:34:09.120
you need a leader that has a strong 
vision that's going to lead strongly lead

0:34:09.120,0:34:14.320
with strength and clarity um and i think that's 
that's what you're doing and that's awesome i

0:34:14.320,0:34:20.160
just like it's fascinating for me to be dipping my 
toes into this open source community that's like

0:34:20.960,0:34:28.720
that's like seeing tremendous growth and then 
think and then and i mean right yeah yeah and

0:34:28.720,0:34:34.720
like magenta was called no that's a parallel it 
is actually yeah it is it's a very strong miracle

0:34:36.160,0:34:44.000
to me i i actually i actually saw a linkedin post 
where uh this one person created a profile on the

0:34:44.000,0:34:48.960
site they on my site they they wrote this profile 
like i love magento i mean i've been in love with

0:34:48.960,0:34:53.760
magento for 10 years it was very poetic posted it 
got a lot of interaction this one person replied

0:34:53.760,0:34:57.760
and it was like magento is a cult and they're like 
i hate magento i stopped using it whenever ago

0:34:58.480,0:35:04.160
um but it's interesting to me to be comparing 
sort of the the old days right where the open

0:35:04.160,0:35:10.320
source community was kind of thriving arguably 
it's been in decline in many ways right for

0:35:10.320,0:35:18.800
for years and like i think willem is is picking 
up like it is sort of um uh is making some

0:35:18.800,0:35:23.040
progress in an upward direction but like by 
and large we've been on kind of downward trend

0:35:23.680,0:35:28.880
and i think that's due to that sort of 
just the nature of like sas eating up so

0:35:28.880,0:35:38.880
much can i can i can i can i pose a conjecture 
when when was magento released publicly 2008

0:35:40.240,0:35:44.480
yeah let's call 2008 i think 
it's like august 2008 okay um

0:35:46.560,0:35:50.400
when was when was hoova released publicly

0:35:52.320,0:35:58.960
has it been has it been a year now two year 
and a half two years how long has it been

0:35:58.960,0:36:08.720
announced announcer launched launched 
launch february of 21 no this year 2021 wait

0:36:10.480,0:36:18.560
okay february so the conjecture the conjecture 
that i have is um open source goes through

0:36:19.920,0:36:26.640
open source adoption goes through cycles 
that map very nicely to economic distress

0:36:27.760,0:36:34.000
i i think that economic distress causes 
a high rate of adoption and interest in

0:36:34.000,0:36:38.400
open source because you have people that 
are changing careers people that become

0:36:38.400,0:36:43.200
aspirational about things that they're 
impassioned projects that they're adopting

0:36:43.760,0:36:50.400
so you have a huge influx of of uh interest in a 
community right then you have people um that are

0:36:51.040,0:36:56.560
uh just like just being very honest like how 
do you cut licensing and software costs at

0:36:56.560,0:37:00.400
a corporate level in a time where your 
profits aren't rising so or you're where

0:37:00.400,0:37:05.200
your top line is arriving rising you have to cut 
the bottom line to be able to make some margin

0:37:05.200,0:37:11.520
like adoption of of open source software again 
becomes back in vogue i think there's a cycle here

0:37:11.520,0:37:17.600
that can that maps very nicely in the modern era 
unfortunately the thing that we are going to deal

0:37:17.600,0:37:24.240
with in this economic you know distress post covid 
is that a lot of that effort is going into the the

0:37:24.240,0:37:31.360
uh crypto and and blockchain communities and not 
into areas that could use the development like uh

0:37:31.360,0:37:36.960
like e-commerce um and and traditional 
like deployed software and that's where

0:37:36.960,0:37:42.720
we are contending as an as an ecosystem of the 
lack of ability to hire and retain people that

0:37:42.720,0:37:47.520
are doing interesting cutting-edge work uh the 
last time we had a little bit of an economic dip

0:37:48.480,0:37:57.360
um uh it was uh we had a similar situation 
uh and and this is um uh 2000 and this is

0:37:57.360,0:38:07.120
like right around uh the trump election um 
originally uh in 2016 um profanity yeah yeah

0:38:07.840,0:38:13.760
yes uh exactly clean let's keep our clean 
rating um but right right around that same uh

0:38:14.560,0:38:21.200
that same uh era uh you know we had uh uh uh you 
know a little bit of a flat line in in economic

0:38:21.200,0:38:26.640
and gdp growth at least here in the united states 
uh you saw a lot of folks putting uh huge amounts

0:38:26.640,0:38:32.800
of effort into open source libraries for ai and 
machine learning and python development um and uh

0:38:33.440,0:38:40.640
so i i feel like just we might have had a dearth 
of 12 13 years ago of people that were you know uh

0:38:41.600,0:38:47.200
in deployed software ecosystems nowadays we have 
a lot of other interesting work to have to compete

0:38:47.200,0:38:52.320
with and that's you know yet another reason 
why like you cannot create highfalutin you know

0:38:52.320,0:38:58.640
high-minded uh e-commerce frameworks today and 
get the kind of traction that you had you know uh

0:38:58.640,0:39:04.400
solving massive engineering problems in e-commerce 
you know years ago those those folks just don't do

0:39:04.400,0:39:09.120
e-commerce work right now they're moving on to 
other types of projects look at fabrizio braca

0:39:09.120,0:39:16.160
like what's he doing these days like the guy you 
know i yeah it's it's they move on to to solve

0:39:16.160,0:39:22.560
bigger problems at bigger scale right that's 
a really interesting um observation i hadn't

0:39:22.560,0:39:27.200
i hadn't thought about that at all but um and 
probably doesn't hold up it doesn't hold water

0:39:27.200,0:39:32.080
i'm coming back to why hoover now like i i think 
that's the reason is like we need something that's

0:39:32.080,0:39:37.040
consumable by an average human being developer who 
doesn't have to be a super developer to be able

0:39:37.040,0:39:42.160
to get any work done also by and large because 
magento is deployed as the open source product

0:39:42.160,0:39:48.000
you don't have massive teams of people working on 
this stuff that have broad capabilities across an

0:39:48.000,0:39:56.640
entire stack right sort of i sort of disagree in 
the sense that i don't see it so much as like oh

0:39:56.640,0:40:02.480
like people are trying to cut costs they're 
looking for open source i feel like it just has

0:40:02.480,0:40:11.280
to do with the fact that m2's front-end framework 
is garbage beast stupid and i don't think villain

0:40:11.280,0:40:17.440
would have built this if like economic cycles 
being what they are if they had executed really

0:40:17.440,0:40:23.600
well on on on on that i don't think one would 
have had any reason to even want to build this

0:40:23.600,0:40:28.560
you know literally nobody would have ever built 
this like if this is this was the doctor strange

0:40:28.560,0:40:34.800
like this is the one out of like six million you 
know multiverse possibilities we wound up in the

0:40:34.800,0:40:41.040
worst timeline where trump is president the m2 
front-end framework is created and and then we

0:40:41.040,0:40:49.120
got kovid like it was those those things in in 
that order um but but but actually we we um you

0:40:49.120,0:40:54.800
mentioned that you're not at integer net anymore 
and so have you he's hiring his own people now

0:40:57.040,0:41:01.440
we have a tradition on mage talk 
of when somebody goes full time

0:41:02.000,0:41:05.040
oh yeah somebody starts a 
side project and goes out time

0:41:06.080,0:41:11.840
we have a tradition of announcing this on 
the bot but that's that's amazing are you

0:41:11.840,0:41:16.480
that's it that's correct congratulations 
are you you're full time on on it now right

0:41:18.320,0:41:26.560
um yeah um it was pretty clear beginning of 
the year that um to launch viva i needed to um

0:41:26.560,0:41:34.880
spend full time working on it and um i i 
wanted to launch of february so i took a

0:41:36.160,0:41:41.600
un unpaid month off for in february and then we 
prolonged that to march and then we decided to

0:41:43.920,0:41:49.760
to um let me work full-time on ufa 
and and my employees really because

0:41:50.320,0:41:57.600
it made so much more sense for both integer 
and me um to build out viva and there was

0:41:57.600,0:42:06.000
just too much that needed to be done right um 
um integer has let me write this wave since

0:42:06.640,0:42:13.760
so this started in in june last year i it's my 
first commit um and then two days later i had a

0:42:13.760,0:42:22.160
home page that worked and and that i showed at 
colleagues at integernet and we all got excited

0:42:22.160,0:42:29.840
a month later i had a prototype and they decided 
to do a first project with that and they were so

0:42:29.840,0:42:34.880
enthusiastic to finally have something enhanced 
that they could really deliver stuff with so

0:42:35.920,0:42:44.080
also that it was immediately apparent that 
building stuff with tufa goes much faster faster

0:42:44.080,0:42:52.240
than with luma faster than with pwa solutions um 
so we delivered the first project um i think all

0:42:52.240,0:42:57.840
the front-end work was done in four to six weeks 
which would normally would have taken three months

0:42:58.880,0:43:06.000
and that was built on my prototype was a b2b shop 
so it needed some custom work and not a lot of

0:43:06.000,0:43:12.400
magenta features were not needed there by default 
because we had all these quick order stuff that we

0:43:12.400,0:43:18.800
did with graphql which is we immediately created 
this hybrid between uh old stack new stack so new

0:43:18.800,0:43:26.720
technologies are just thrown in whenever it makes 
sense uh in that case it really did um and then

0:43:28.720,0:43:33.680
i think that was awkward as we 
started the first project and then um

0:43:35.840,0:43:42.640
they immediately started up to act for projects 
um and then they stopped working on one few

0:43:42.640,0:43:46.720
storefront project that they have been working on 
for eight months and they couldn't deliver before

0:43:46.720,0:43:51.920
the end of the year and the customer didn't there 
was there was no end in sight and they couldn't

0:43:51.920,0:43:59.840
they couldn't properly estimate what it would 
cost to finish it and um by january they released

0:43:59.840,0:44:09.280
the full rebuild on huffa um within that line 
and uh within that line and well obviously no

0:44:09.280,0:44:16.000
longer within budget because they already crossed 
that four times with with hugh slothron um so

0:44:17.680,0:44:22.160
yeah it made a lot of sense for them 
to invest in this product to make sure

0:44:22.160,0:44:27.040
that it got markets ready and they could 
continue build their business on top of it

0:44:27.680,0:44:34.800
um so we had a really good relationship there 
and a partnership where they allowed me to build

0:44:34.800,0:44:43.280
stuff for their customers and then put into my 
product um and yeah somewhere around january

0:44:43.280,0:44:48.320
uh most of the features that that they needed at 
that point were completed and i just needed to

0:44:48.320,0:44:52.160
keep going to build and all the features that 
the community needed and my customers needed

0:44:52.800,0:45:00.080
so i went full focus on that from february 
and then the 12th of february we launched

0:45:01.040,0:45:07.600
version 1.0 and the feature matrix was 
already more complete than pwa at that time

0:45:08.320,0:45:15.200
um i had wishlists during my launch of 
february which was released yesterday for pwa

0:45:16.480,0:45:26.080
wow um so um yeah from there one one obvious issue 
that we needed to tackle was the ecosystem of of

0:45:26.080,0:45:34.320
extensions and um we haven't had major releases 
on uva in the past three months i think because

0:45:34.320,0:45:38.320
there has gone a lot of focus in these 
compatibility modules that we built

0:45:38.880,0:45:46.080
so we take modules from from uh what our 
customers request so what's in high demand we

0:45:47.760,0:45:52.480
we take those we make them compatible uh 
with huffa and that we shared just the

0:45:52.480,0:45:58.480
code to make it compatible with our customers 
so today i launched a blog on our own website

0:45:59.600,0:46:07.680
so on hoover io and that's built on the mage 
some block and that's a compatibility module

0:46:07.680,0:46:12.080
that just contains some html files that 
make it compatible they contain all the

0:46:12.080,0:46:16.880
css in javascript and um i made it compatible 
for our own website and then immediately

0:46:17.440,0:46:22.080
built a competitive compatibility module out 
of that that all of our customers can use now

0:46:22.720,0:46:30.880
um and uh yeah there's some some modules from 
um with lead navigation and ajax filtering and

0:46:30.880,0:46:35.520
everything that we're not really too keen about 
because they contain a lot of javascript and

0:46:36.240,0:46:41.840
obviously we don't like that but we've put 
a lot of effort in these kind of modules to

0:46:43.280,0:46:48.000
to make at least some of those compatible so 
on the whole range of functionalities that

0:46:48.000,0:46:52.800
merchants need at least we have examples 
out there we have good documentation

0:46:52.800,0:46:59.120
we haven't even mentioned yet that finite cop 
is yeah my business partner now oh my gosh

0:46:59.120,0:47:05.680
how did i not know that you did not know 
that i did not know that he yeah so it's um

0:47:06.320,0:47:12.560
it's it's published uh publicly 
first time this week in a blog

0:47:12.560,0:47:21.120
article from intergenerate which uh describes 
the the birth of viva or like how is became

0:47:23.200,0:47:33.200
of offspring of of energynet so to say or spin-off 
um and uh finai when i started working at integer

0:47:33.200,0:47:41.280
earlier this year and got involved with so much 
that at some point he just he got gravity put him

0:47:41.280,0:47:48.240
towards hoover and um that's so cool that's 
that's that's the coolest thing i love that

0:47:50.800,0:47:58.000
wow you got the killer team my gosh um 
yeah so much knowledge and there's so much

0:47:58.000,0:48:05.680
um so much expertise that that finnai brings 
in not only i mean first of all he's the best

0:48:05.680,0:48:09.680
the best person i could imagine to work 
with because he's the kind is the nicest guy

0:48:09.680,0:48:18.560
he is and then also super super intelligent 
and humble um and um he immediately started

0:48:18.560,0:48:23.520
off writing a lot of documentation and work on 
these compatibility modules and just made the

0:48:23.520,0:48:32.320
whole ecosystem better from the data he joined and 
and started working on it um so yeah we're really

0:48:32.320,0:48:37.680
we're really in the left so it's me it's finai we 
have a front-end developer that started this week

0:48:38.880,0:48:48.400
he's is going to put full-time effort in this ui 
comp uh ui component library so he'll be building

0:48:51.360,0:48:56.080
all kinds of menus and navigation 
and galleries and swatch displays and

0:48:56.080,0:49:00.000
it's very much like tailwind 
ui does a commercial package

0:49:01.440,0:49:09.040
that we we announced this in in in october already 
like it was my it was my dream like that's the

0:49:09.040,0:49:14.000
product that i want to build but i needed to 
build a platform to be able to build that product

0:49:15.520,0:49:22.320
and um that's going to be i mean the tailwind 
ui e-commerce package was launched today so i

0:49:23.120,0:49:28.720
yeah video coming up so i feel uh i i would really 
like to start playing with it tomorrow but i can't

0:49:29.280,0:49:34.320
um well you have a release you have a release 
tomorrow yeah and then and then you have to go on

0:49:34.320,0:49:41.440
vacation because you told your wife yeah yeah yeah 
yeah um and uh boy i need a vacation so that's

0:49:41.440,0:49:50.320
that's so good but um that ui library is already 
amazing so building a shop with uva just means you

0:49:50.320,0:49:57.920
buy a license with tailwind ui take the e-commerce 
package and then copy their html css or just html

0:49:57.920,0:50:03.600
because it contains the css and then you implement 
it into who file with the with the functionalities

0:50:03.600,0:50:11.840
that we have you reuse the javascript that we that 
we build and uh you have a beautiful website in

0:50:12.640,0:50:18.560
uh i i i don't want to exaggerate but like in 
a fraction of the time you would normally spend

0:50:19.600,0:50:24.400
and uh that's that's to say the least 
i think by the time by the time you you

0:50:24.400,0:50:32.720
dig into the documentation on ui components um 
and and you write and you write like 16 or 20

0:50:33.600,0:50:38.720
xml files you could probably you know 
you could probably get a lot more done

0:50:38.720,0:50:42.240
in hoover i wouldn't know because i can't 
get my team to spend a thousand dollars

0:50:42.240,0:50:46.000
on your freaking license so you know 
there's that it's a whole other thing

0:50:47.760,0:50:52.080
seriously wait we gotta we gotta dig into 
no let's talk about this i'll i'll talk

0:50:52.080,0:50:57.520
crap about my team publicly i don't care 
no i guess i'm investing in peace i'm just

0:50:59.440,0:51:06.000
i actually it's funny because i i would have 
assumed it was more the um you know indie

0:51:06.000,0:51:12.400
developer that you know is just doing a little 
random thing on the side that wants to use it

0:51:12.400,0:51:16.720
like i think i've run into one or two people 
that have kind of fit that description and they

0:51:16.720,0:51:20.800
haven't been able to you know put down the money 
to try it out but i would have thought like for

0:51:20.800,0:51:28.800
companies it would wouldn't be in a in a pre in a 
prior era you know there there's absolutely a um

0:51:29.440,0:51:34.400
there would have been a team that is scrappy 
working on it uh we have a number of of we

0:51:34.400,0:51:39.600
have a number of challenges one you know uh 
something digital was acquired by right point

0:51:39.600,0:51:45.440
back in october um and just a lot of moving parts 
i'm sure we're in the mist we're in the midst of a

0:51:45.440,0:51:52.080
no see you're trying to gloss over and i'm trying 
to talk crap thank you for helping me out i love

0:51:52.080,0:51:57.600
it they're gonna play this back for me by the 
way in my in my dismissal and be like um i'll

0:51:57.600,0:52:00.720
be like why are we sitting here and they'll be 
like hold on one second they'll pull up you know

0:52:01.600,0:52:09.840
49 minutes and 27 seconds 51 30 on the podcast 
um it basically comes down to this like we we you

0:52:09.840,0:52:16.720
know we what we deliver is extremely known and we 
deliver it all the time right and we have a roster

0:52:16.720,0:52:21.520
of clients you know 50 some odd you know growth 
clients that we deliver the same thing like we've

0:52:21.520,0:52:25.680
they're all in the same stack they have the 
same common front end and back end there's an

0:52:25.680,0:52:30.160
extreme repeatability and predictability 
for us to make any kind of investment

0:52:30.160,0:52:35.120
in the future it's not a dollar amount it's a 
it's a willingness to put effort into is this

0:52:35.120,0:52:39.920
what we're going to do who's going to champion 
it who becomes the product owner internally

0:52:39.920,0:52:45.360
the thousand dollars is nothing like it's nothing 
i've seen us spend three thousand dollars on on a

0:52:45.360,0:52:53.200
bottle of wine so like it's it's about it's about 
i'm just letting it rip watch this i won't have

0:52:53.200,0:52:58.000
a job next month i'll have to come work for 
hoover um i could do you need an evangelist

0:52:59.840,0:53:07.520
um can you pay me in bitcoin that's what 
kaelin wants to know um that won't fly with p9

0:53:08.720,0:53:15.520
i know i know i have to see i've seen that yeah 
so like long story short it's you know uh as an

0:53:15.520,0:53:21.520
agency and especially one that has less and less 
agency these days we're an agency without agency

0:53:21.520,0:53:28.560
um i i you know like what what what we do in the 
future is actually like a long a long long long

0:53:28.560,0:53:33.040
road map of you know a year and a half two years 
from now and we have to have someone internal to

0:53:33.040,0:53:38.880
champion it um and and sort of product manage it 
as a new line of business and that's just takes

0:53:38.880,0:53:42.720
way more time than i'd like it to and that's 
unfortunate and that's where we are but one day

0:53:43.760,0:53:46.640
this year it's happening 
we're going to get there um

0:53:49.200,0:53:55.600
but hey maybe we could we just like rant about 
things that we're mildly sure are going to get

0:53:55.600,0:54:01.120
us into into trouble and yeah i'm 100 sure this 
will get me into trouble it's not even mild

0:54:03.360,0:54:07.280
it's all true though you can never you can 
never say that i've lied like that's the

0:54:10.800,0:54:17.280
yeah how did we get onto this oh yeah yeah by the 
way bill if you need a biz dev guy i mean i mean

0:54:17.280,0:54:26.640
i'm your guy i mean i'm i'm he'll do it he costs 
20 000 a tweet i'm okay i'm overcoming objections

0:54:26.640,0:54:31.200
yeah kayla if if you're okay with your 
biz dev guy having laser eyes on twitter

0:54:31.760,0:54:38.800
um you saw my laser eye of course i saw your 
laser eyes i haven't gotten any comments on it yet

0:54:39.440,0:54:44.960
um so yeah let me know man can 
we circle back to one thing

0:54:44.960,0:54:50.960
yeah please to use the best so what we do 
here that's what we do we circle we circle

0:55:01.520,0:55:08.080
so one thing i'm heavily invested in is 
and we left the topic um because of bitcoin

0:55:08.080,0:55:19.040
oh sorry the future the future of magento yeah um 
and i just i just um i just want to ensure people

0:55:21.280,0:55:30.320
magento has a future like there's a bright future 
from magento open source and i've been talking to

0:55:32.720,0:55:42.160
people that are absolutely capable of 
carrying this platform um and either

0:55:42.880,0:55:52.640
adobe or the association comes up with a solid 
plan to do this or another initiative will rise

0:55:54.240,0:55:57.840
and will enable the community and

0:56:00.000,0:56:07.520
have the strength and the and and the willingness 
there is um the cool the best thing that

0:56:07.520,0:56:12.080
that has happened with huffa for me is 
that all the people that reach out to me

0:56:12.800,0:56:21.280
um have so much passion for magento and want to 
keep that going so badly and they miss they really

0:56:21.280,0:56:32.400
miss this community and and collaboration and um 
contributing to things and helping each other out

0:56:32.400,0:56:42.480
and that has put all the right people on my scope 
to um sit together and discuss what we can do

0:56:43.280,0:56:54.000
to give magento a future and i don't 
want to get in the way of the association

0:56:54.960,0:57:02.240
and i don't want to i want i really appreciate 
the relationship i have with people at adobe um

0:57:02.240,0:57:08.080
so i i really hope that um something 
comes up that will bring out um

0:57:08.960,0:57:19.040
the best for the community and then i'm really 
purely talking about the php monolith because

0:57:19.040,0:57:26.880
there's if if we talk about adobe caring about 
open source i have the feeling that often means

0:57:26.880,0:57:33.120
the open source pwa app and not so much the 
monolith because that's that's going to be

0:57:33.120,0:57:40.320
deprecated that's that's something that has been 
communicated and that will happen in i think two

0:57:40.320,0:57:48.880
to four years uh the php monolith of magento is 
going to be deprecated in two to four years yeah

0:57:51.280,0:57:56.880
that's interesting um does that 
mean i have to learn peregrine now

0:58:00.240,0:58:07.760
no because magenta won't go away it's just um 
it's it it won't go away it will it will only

0:58:07.760,0:58:14.400
be like a cockroach it'll just live on forever 
no no yeah no that's not that's definitely not

0:58:14.400,0:58:20.640
what i have in mind um i think um we can bring 
the right impulse back to magenta to have to

0:58:20.640,0:58:26.560
innovate it again it has been stagnant for the 
last five years it really has and i think yeah um

0:58:27.920,0:58:32.720
not a lot has happened there especially 
on the front end on the current front

0:58:32.720,0:58:37.680
end of the monolith so to say but also 
on the back end there could have been

0:58:38.480,0:58:45.600
much more innovation if the right focus would 
have been there and i think um open source

0:58:45.600,0:58:51.840
contributions are becoming less and less it's 
becoming more people getting demotivated because

0:58:51.840,0:58:57.760
the whole process of getting um contributions 
uh accepted are getting harder and harder

0:58:59.280,0:59:06.480
you see a lot of complaints i mean even freaking 
people from varnish from the organization

0:59:06.480,0:59:12.160
varnish open pull requests that are that are 
unanswered for over a year they're trying to

0:59:12.160,0:59:20.240
make magento better and suggest fixes for for 
some issues in the way varnish is implemented and

0:59:21.440,0:59:28.160
it doesn't even get the right attention there 
so um i think i really think we can change that

0:59:28.160,0:59:38.400
um but um this this might be an interesting 
one to to come back to in uh one to two months

0:59:39.200,0:59:46.960
um and um and see where we're at then 
um but um i feel like willem is ready

0:59:46.960,0:59:51.600
to take over as the bdfl for magento 
i think so too i i i would allow it

0:59:52.320,0:59:57.680
to rise from the ashes this this shouldn't i 
don't think magenta should be run by a person

0:59:58.640,1:00:05.120
that's i don't think i don't think if i should 
run magento i think it should be a legend

1:00:05.120,1:00:11.360
is what it should be run by i i'm on record for a 
very long time now saying that i feel like we the

1:00:11.360,1:00:17.920
the the community running magento is what we got 
between magenta one and two and a lot of people

1:00:17.920,1:00:24.720
who were into a lot of fads at the time got a lot 
of input into making magento ii the sort of camel

1:00:24.720,1:00:31.280
that it became you know they say that a horse 
designed by a committee is a camel and um you know

1:00:31.280,1:00:37.280
there's it's like a camel is is a project that had 
scope creep right like that's that's exactly what

1:00:37.280,1:00:44.720
happens and and i i i kind of i don't know i think 
that there's a lot of decision fatigue too with

1:00:44.720,1:00:50.400
deployed software i think it's super necessary 
and do i think it's going to live on 100 how do i

1:00:50.400,1:00:57.600
think that because i watch corporations put tens 
of millions of dollars into magento every year

1:00:58.800,1:01:05.600
magenta one well no i'm magento too i i'm watching 
it i i build it i i answer rfps every day like

1:01:05.600,1:01:10.320
that's what that's my my job is to help them 
strategize how to use it in their organizations

1:01:10.320,1:01:17.840
it's not happening on you know kalin's 
you know smokeshopemporium.com anymore

1:01:17.840,1:01:24.720
it happens on it happens in the it's happening 
in powering that business is doing quite well

1:01:26.400,1:01:34.080
they only accept bitcoin nothing to see that but 
the the it so so like your mom-and-pop e-commerce

1:01:34.080,1:01:40.800
store is being powered by something else these 
days but uh big big enterprise e-commerce builds

1:01:40.800,1:01:46.880
that are powering like your health care system 
and your your post-health care needs um uh

1:01:46.880,1:01:53.520
uh post-operation like you need to buy a walker 
you need to go home with uh a bunch of uh uh care

1:01:53.520,1:01:58.080
instructions and maybe you need some like you need 
to you know put some stuff in your house to like

1:01:58.080,1:02:02.720
help you with mobility like a a frame around the 
toilet for you to be able to get up and down like

1:02:02.720,1:02:07.840
all these things are commerce solutions that 
like companies all over the world are building

1:02:07.840,1:02:12.880
and they're putting tens of millions into magento 
i don't think that magento is going to die

1:02:12.880,1:02:18.560
i think magento has already evolved as a product 
as we understand it and the use cases have adapted

1:02:18.560,1:02:24.560
what i would love to see is to see the use 
cases come back to the four where we have a uh

1:02:25.760,1:02:31.440
where there can be more consumer interaction and 
it can power the new types than the new flexible

1:02:31.440,1:02:36.800
consumer experiences of the future um because i'm 
afraid that it's being relegated to a b2b software

1:02:36.800,1:02:46.400
stack and and you know that's uh uh you know that 
would be a shame right that would be a real shame

1:02:46.400,1:02:53.040
because i think it's powerful for it it's capable 
of so much more i can just imagine like i just i

1:02:53.040,1:02:59.200
literally imagined it i mean i know i'm joking 
about it but but i imagine bill i'm taking over

1:02:59.200,1:03:05.040
in that role and and i i think we've said this 
a lot of times philip that like you need that

1:03:05.040,1:03:11.760
person that bdfl that taylor otwell that yo that 
roy you need that person at the helm of a product

1:03:11.760,1:03:19.200
that loves it that's dedicated to it um to kind 
of steer it like and in many ways i think that

1:03:19.200,1:03:24.320
might be the one single thing that magenta 
like lost as somewhere along the way i mean

1:03:25.840,1:03:29.840
does roy get do we are we allowed to cite 
roy's name he's been gone longer than he was

1:03:29.840,1:03:35.520
there i i feel like it's not he doesn't count 
anymore the guy sold it the first opportunity

1:03:35.520,1:03:41.920
one person says one person says hey would you 
like can i buy that and he's like yes please

1:03:43.520,1:03:48.960
and the next person says can i buy that and 
he's like absolutely you can mark level says

1:03:48.960,1:03:55.680
i think you need help running this thing he's 
like here have it just take it please that was

1:03:55.680,1:04:01.040
anyone i think that was i mean i think it was 
on one of these one of these exponential curves

1:04:01.040,1:04:07.040
and that was the moment however long ago it was 
yeah the curve started to and then it took years

1:04:07.040,1:04:12.000
and years and years and then you know whatever i 
can i can and i know willem hates is saying this

1:04:12.000,1:04:18.560
because he gave all these caveats about how he has 
villain has a beautiful story by the way and we're

1:04:18.560,1:04:24.640
pooping all over it like there's something really 
truly remarkable and very i think upbeat about

1:04:25.200,1:04:30.800
being bullish on the future of magento and not 
just saying that from like conjecture but saying

1:04:30.800,1:04:37.440
yeah and i'm doing something about it and and and 
i'm not even joking at all like i oh because i

1:04:37.440,1:04:43.680
i've yeah i've been i've been joking no but 
like i genuinely could see well i'm doing that

1:04:43.680,1:04:49.840
and i know how much he loves magento you 
know i i had that feeling about magento as

1:04:49.840,1:04:54.240
a developer myself for a number of years and then 
i don't know what happened i something happened

1:04:54.240,1:05:01.280
you know you started tweeting for 20 grand of 
pops and then yeah i love the community but like

1:05:01.280,1:05:08.000
it's just a money printer now and more 
than just having that but having created a

1:05:08.000,1:05:13.280
real world product that people are using and 
not only are they using it but they're loving it

1:05:13.280,1:05:18.320
when you create software that people love 
you know like a laravel like a tailwind

1:05:19.040,1:05:23.600
there's something magical there and 
like i hadn't thought about this thing

1:05:23.600,1:05:30.960
you know the rest of magento or whatever where 
that might go uh the open source piece um but

1:05:30.960,1:05:36.240
uh that would be yeah awesome that'd be 
beautiful like to see it it's what's been

1:05:36.240,1:05:41.680
desperately needed is for someone to come from the 
outside of the organization and say hey here's a

1:05:41.680,1:05:45.280
totally different way of thinking about solving 
this problem we're approaching this whole thing

1:05:45.280,1:05:52.000
all wrong and i like i so welcome that and applaud 
you for doing it because it's not an easy thing to

1:05:52.000,1:05:57.200
do the fact that you're attracting others around 
you that say and we want to help you with it like

1:05:57.840,1:06:05.120
yeah that's like this is that's that's how 
community works um so many people that are eager

1:06:05.120,1:06:14.160
to see something like this happen it's only you 
only need to ask and they pop up and there is

1:06:15.680,1:06:20.880
such a immense market around magento 
the monolith as it stands currently i

1:06:20.880,1:06:26.240
should actually just stated this people pouring 
millions and millions in it just this year alone

1:06:28.240,1:06:37.600
and i think all we need is um some 
clarity about what will happen with it

1:06:38.480,1:06:46.480
and with magento with magento yeah so if we 
speak about adobe commerce and magento being

1:06:46.480,1:06:52.400
magento being the open source monolith we 
need to know what our future is going to

1:06:52.400,1:06:56.640
be with magento what that looks like and 
i don't want to sit back and wait until

1:06:59.200,1:07:03.680
adobe's going to tell us like 
if that takes too long then

1:07:06.320,1:07:10.800
then we have to speed things up 
and i know the association is is

1:07:11.920,1:07:19.200
trying to trying to get a grip on this and i i 
really hope that they that they that they can

1:07:19.200,1:07:25.680
accomplish um some statement on this 
and some time path and just a clear

1:07:25.680,1:07:30.640
clear roadmap on what this will look like 
because now all we have schematics that show us

1:07:31.440,1:07:38.000
how every bit and piece of the monolith will 
be replaced with another api um until there's

1:07:38.000,1:07:44.080
nothing left to replace um so then we'll 
finally have api coverage that would be nice

1:07:46.160,1:07:57.760
yeah but um of of a bunch of sas solutions apis 
at any cost this is the funny this is the funny

1:07:57.760,1:08:03.920
problem i'm writing an e-book right now villain 
that um it started out as like the definitive

1:08:03.920,1:08:09.360
guide to re-platforming and it was like here's 
all the things you need to consider when

1:08:09.360,1:08:13.680
when moving from one platform to the next 
and so i started doing customer interviews

1:08:13.680,1:08:19.600
and i started talking to people and i went and i 
looked at all of our documentation of like how we

1:08:19.600,1:08:24.960
how we go about building new new sites and all 
all the discovery work we do you know we put in

1:08:24.960,1:08:28.800
hundreds of hours of discovery to make sure that 
we get everything right we don't forget anything

1:08:29.440,1:08:32.800
and i started noticing this theme 
of like the hours that we spend

1:08:33.680,1:08:39.280
every year on discovery for re-platforming has 
gone down every year for 10 years and i'm like

1:08:39.280,1:08:44.400
why is that and when i started looking into 
it it's because nobody keeps data in their

1:08:44.400,1:08:50.000
ecommerce platform anymore some of it's a plavio 
some of it's at yacht post some of it's like i've

1:08:50.000,1:08:55.840
got reviews over here i've got you know i've got 
crm over here i've got cdp over here and i've got

1:08:55.840,1:09:00.480
it's like literally the only thing that is 
even owned by the e-commerce platform at some

1:09:00.480,1:09:06.320
organizations is the product detail page and 
that has upsells from nasto on it and it has

1:09:06.320,1:09:12.000
uh you know ugc from yatpo in it and it's like 
half of the experience that you are going like

1:09:12.000,1:09:17.280
maybe the cart no i take it back bolt is driving 
your checkout too and you have one click on every

1:09:17.280,1:09:23.360
page there is no ecommerce platform left there's 
nothing left there's nothing like the migrate

1:09:24.160,1:09:30.320
that's a specific part of the market though there 
is still a very large smb market that doesn't that

1:09:30.320,1:09:34.800
doesn't do that no they don't do that magento 
magento was their platform and it has their

1:09:34.800,1:09:39.360
product data and it has their stock and it has 
the pricing and has to check out it has everything

1:09:39.360,1:09:47.280
they use boost erp for their erp and they're uh 
good to go they're fulfilling out of the back end

1:09:47.280,1:09:52.560
of magento dude they're literally printing labels 
with magento you can do that about to boost erp

1:09:52.560,1:09:58.960
by the way are they sponsoring this episode that 
would be great if they were because do they even

1:09:58.960,1:10:03.520
exist i've never even heard of boost erp you never 
heard boost the is is that what's called boost

1:10:04.480,1:10:12.000
boost erp the magento the magenta the erp that's 
a magento extension is that true is it i've never

1:10:12.000,1:10:17.120
heard of it yeah i think it's called it's like a 
french it's like a french company oh that's beast

1:10:20.080,1:10:26.800
beast i derailed i got a little excited um it's 
late for villain sorry come back around sorry

1:10:28.080,1:10:34.960
yeah i'm sorry to say this but uh it's uh really 
late here okay uh i have a release day tomorrow

1:10:35.680,1:10:44.080
as we've heard um where can people where can 
people get huba where can they get it hyva

1:10:44.080,1:10:51.360
dot i-o and uh we're big we're big supporters of 
what you're doing if in spirit and then sometime

1:10:51.360,1:10:57.600
in some future also in truth i'll i'll uh uh 
we'll find a way to make it happen at least

1:10:57.600,1:11:03.120
on on the right point side of things but um hey 
caitlyn maybe you could uh take some time and uh

1:11:03.120,1:11:08.320
and and take some of that hard-earned tweet money 
and uh and maybe we could spin up a scholarship

1:11:08.320,1:11:13.840
for uh for a developer that's looking to 
uh to get a license that's a great idea

1:11:14.800,1:11:19.200
take a little crypto earnings take a little 
one of those tweets pop a tweet out for 10k

1:11:19.200,1:11:24.880
take it 50 haircut well i don't have 
any crypto earnings because we're we're

1:11:37.760,1:11:41.680
if you have time phillip do you want to do a 
couple more minutes after yeah we got we got

1:11:41.680,1:11:46.000
a little we got a few more minutes after villain 
okay um what what an awesome time for you to spend

1:11:46.000,1:11:50.800
time with us i know it took us literal months to 
make this happen and i'm sorry that it did but uh

1:11:51.680,1:11:55.120
it came at a great time and i wish the 
best to you and your family man and

1:11:56.000,1:12:03.120
congratulations on all the success so far same 
to you and and uh thanks for having me i'm

1:12:03.120,1:12:11.200
really glad we finally got to do this i hope 
we can do it not too long from now um once more

1:12:11.200,1:12:16.800
and we can we might be able to talk about 
some more future magento things i'd like

1:12:16.800,1:12:22.880
that we should we should start a podcast 
called hoover talk that's not enough i don't

1:12:22.880,1:12:30.320
think that's necessary just uh just keep keep 
keep mitchell going is it you think okay i am

1:12:32.400,1:12:39.200
i i think the whole community owes you guys so 
much um and i i was meaning to say something

1:12:39.200,1:12:47.520
along these lines um i remember eight nine 
years ago uh i was living closer nearer near

1:12:47.520,1:12:53.280
a forest and i walked my dog every day and many 
of those walks were accompanied by your voices

1:12:54.400,1:13:00.240
listening to the latest of the magenta world 
and so many insights and so many things that

1:13:00.240,1:13:07.920
put me into the community and made me feel 
more part of that just from hearing you guys

1:13:07.920,1:13:14.480
discussing these things and i think it it goes 
for so many people in the community who have been

1:13:15.360,1:13:26.640
bonded to magento by by you guys and i think um 
it's awesome um and i i i know it's different

1:13:26.640,1:13:32.640
times and the community magenta community 
doesn't mean the same thing exactly as it did

1:13:33.360,1:13:40.480
five years ago eight years ago but um yeah i'm 
i'm happy you guys are still doing this and um

1:13:42.640,1:13:48.480
great stuff thank you thanks man thank you super 
hard to get not to get emotional about it i

1:13:48.480,1:13:56.320
appreciate it yeah but uh we really appreciate 
it man and uh have a good night over there um

1:13:57.040,1:14:00.560
and uh we'll talk to you soon i think 
you can just close out of the browser

1:14:01.360,1:14:06.240
um right or you know what i take that 
back it probably is going to want to

1:14:06.240,1:14:13.840
upload locally so you probably are just 
going to want to like click up close

1:14:27.040,1:14:36.800
fun that was cool dude um you haven't asked me 
what this thing is yet that i've been foreign

1:14:37.360,1:14:44.960
i know what i i'm playing with lego blocks because 
is it i figured something out it's a brain hack if

1:14:44.960,1:14:50.800
i don't have something to play with i'll pick my 
phone up and and if i pick my phone up then i'm

1:14:50.800,1:14:58.160
toast because i i won't i like i there's my brain 
needs to do something and i i actually listen

1:14:58.160,1:15:02.800
better if i'm active if i'm playing with something 
this is a little clamped for like a camera

1:15:02.800,1:15:09.200
um and this is a thing that i found that i don't 
think is related at all but screws in very like in

1:15:09.200,1:15:18.080
a very satisfying way to it you ever watched the 
um uh what is it the reddit uh page of satisfying

1:15:18.080,1:15:26.720
uh oddly satisfying or oddly satisfied yeah yeah 
yep you know what's funny is my my kids uh watch

1:15:26.720,1:15:31.920
some like kids youtube channels that are called 
oddly satisfying it's like people cutting like

1:15:31.920,1:15:38.560
kinetic sand with knives and um squishing slime 
and i don't know some other stuff that's like

1:15:39.360,1:15:45.920
how is that a thing yeah have you have you 
i've heard about this uh this whole slime thing

1:15:45.920,1:15:51.840
and i don't understand it at all but i i've 
heard that it's i don't understand it either

1:15:53.040,1:15:57.120
it was actually i think it was bigger a little 
while ago you know tj and his daughter kind of

1:15:57.120,1:16:02.800
started a little slime slime business on the 
side that's right yeah that's right that's right

1:16:02.800,1:16:05.840
that's why i want to say those like 
2019 they were like she was making

1:16:06.560,1:16:10.800
uh slime and kind of selling it at 
like local farmers markets and stuff

1:16:11.440,1:16:18.800
right pretty dope um yeah there's like a whole 
there was like a whole thing in the slime market

1:16:18.800,1:16:22.720
around like making slime that looked like things 
and then you squish it and it's slime it was

1:16:23.280,1:16:29.040
like artwork almost um that's how you knew 
the markets were frothy and due for a downturn

1:16:31.680,1:16:39.520
dude it's so good to talk to you man it's 
a lot of fun it's like i need to talk to

1:16:39.520,1:16:43.680
you more often because when i'm not talking to 
you i'm like buying nfts and and you know and

1:16:43.680,1:16:51.200
swapping you know ave and uh and sushi swap 
and i'm in my own crypto world too really i

1:16:51.200,1:16:54.560
couldn't tell that to i couldn't tell that to 
villain because i didn't want him to give me a

1:16:54.560,1:17:00.960
hard time about it i just ganged up on you over 
it that's horrible the whole time you were on my

1:17:09.760,1:17:17.760
we already did this uh so you did you did you 
actually buy some nfts oh i i was on the original

1:17:17.760,1:17:25.280
like train back in december i i have no way yeah i 
have uh so i started on top shot in like november

1:17:25.280,1:17:30.000
or december and i bought i don't know i've spent 
many too many thousands of dollars on top shot

1:17:30.640,1:17:36.320
um quite the i have quite the collection 
there and uh and then there was a hot shot

1:17:37.120,1:17:43.440
is that like it's an nba nft that was powered 
by donkey labs and um it's the one that was

1:17:43.440,1:17:48.320
sort of the pokemon go moment where like a lot 
of consumers like got into it like oh these are

1:17:48.320,1:17:53.600
digital trading cards well it's actually like 
it's powered by something um and then there was

1:17:53.600,1:18:01.120
a project that got launched uh that that got on my 
radar on twitter um called hash masks and it was a

1:18:01.120,1:18:07.440
it was like oh this is a generative art project 
and it was an nft and i was like oh my gosh we

1:18:07.440,1:18:14.320
covered generative art back two three years ago on 
on future commerce so i pulled up this old episode

1:18:15.040,1:18:21.760
that uh that uh talked about cryptokitties and 
i was like what i was like about that so i went

1:18:21.760,1:18:26.720
and checked out cryptokitties they were going 
for like fifty thousand dollars dude that's one

1:18:26.720,1:18:32.240
of the big ones right when i saw that it was one 
of the og's it was cryptokitties uh crypto punks

1:18:32.240,1:18:38.640
and one or two others um moon uh moon cats 
i want to say moon cats was one the original

1:18:39.200,1:18:45.440
and like when you when when you look at that and 
you look at all these projects and like there were

1:18:45.440,1:18:50.320
there were no nft projects that were launching 
in like november december i looked at hash masks

1:18:50.320,1:18:54.000
and i was like i think this is going to be a 
thing so i wrote a big piece for future commerce

1:18:54.000,1:18:57.840
about it and then i put my money where my mouth 
is and i bought a bunch of nfts i bought all the

1:18:57.840,1:19:04.000
wrong ones i didn't buy the ones that made it um i 
remember sitting with my wife on a sunday morning

1:19:05.280,1:19:08.720
and i'm sorry saturday morning and 
we're sitting we're drinking coffee

1:19:08.720,1:19:15.440
and i had my thumb on open c to confirm purchase 
of what of something called a board api club

1:19:16.560,1:19:22.400
and and you'll see everybody with these monkey 
avatars now on twitter and uh and so there was

1:19:22.400,1:19:30.160
this drop of uh 10 000 apes i think it was and 
um and they were all going for i want to say

1:19:30.160,1:19:36.880
like i forget what the original opening price was 
like 0.05 ether piece and and i was like that's

1:19:36.880,1:19:40.720
it's a couple hundred bucks or something and i 
had my thumb over it and jackie's like you're not

1:19:40.720,1:19:44.560
gonna buy another one of those are you and i'm 
like i don't know i don't think so and she goes

1:19:45.120,1:19:49.920
she pointed at it she's like that one has your 
hair you should buy that one and i was like i

1:19:49.920,1:19:55.040
don't know baby it was like 366 bucks and i'm 
like i i can't see myself i don't know like i'm

1:19:55.040,1:19:59.040
at this point now that i like i investigated it 
i learned a lot about it i bought a ton of them

1:19:59.600,1:20:05.040
and i was like i think i'm just gonna hold with 
what i have that kaelyn is the project that that

1:20:05.040,1:20:09.600
ape that i would have bought would be worth 50 eat 
right now which would be like 250 thousand dollars

1:20:10.400,1:20:19.120
so so kill me oh yeah so i have a bunch of 
worthless nfts but it's been it's been a lot of

1:20:19.120,1:20:24.240
fun and jackie's an artist so she's like gotten 
really deep into it to kind of like understand

1:20:25.360,1:20:33.440
you know what art means in in in a modern context 
um yeah i i haven't um gotten too um into the the

1:20:33.440,1:20:40.000
nfts but i i actually heard a garyvee video 
on like like an hour long video on it and um

1:20:40.800,1:20:48.000
and it was it was pretty pretty cool pretty pretty 
interesting the idea of the uniqueness of like art

1:20:48.000,1:20:53.920
you know like the thing that makes an original 
picasso uh valuable is the fact that it's the

1:20:53.920,1:21:01.760
original and that's authenticated in certain ways 
so so like the similar idea idea and the digital

1:21:02.400,1:21:08.800
provenance is what they call it and um and 
i think there's something really interesting

1:21:08.800,1:21:13.680
there i mean gary in particular you know made 
like a million dollars off of selling scribbles

1:21:13.680,1:21:20.960
on as nfts so yeah right the rich could get 
richer um but i do think that you know there's

1:21:20.960,1:21:25.920
hey you know i'm holding out hopes that you 
know the owner of crypto sergs uh which is

1:21:25.920,1:21:31.600
one i bought into a few of is like i hope that 
that guy maybe i mean listen you know maybe that

1:21:31.600,1:21:36.400
guy gets arrested as being like a famous serial 
killer and then they'll be worth something one day

1:21:36.400,1:21:43.040
um because the province is like there's a story 
now behind the person who created it um very few

1:21:43.040,1:21:47.200
very few few of these projects are actually going 
to go much of anywhere without giant community

1:21:47.200,1:21:52.160
support which very few of them have that's the 
ones that are you know going for insane amounts of

1:21:52.160,1:21:58.720
in same multiples or like these projects that 
have uh tangential benefits like in mass which is

1:21:58.720,1:22:04.560
what board ape is doing you know board apes it's 
basically what webb smith called a digital country

1:22:04.560,1:22:09.600
club i think that that makes a lot of sense it's 
like you can only get on their discord if you own

1:22:09.600,1:22:16.160
one of those nfts you can only get um you know 
you can listen to their like chill radio station

1:22:16.160,1:22:22.960
if you have one of their nfts like it is a status 
symbol of some kind like whether that's the status

1:22:22.960,1:22:29.760
you want i think is debatable um but it's yeah 
i think it's an interesting thing to watch and

1:22:29.760,1:22:35.920
i i definitely am keeping tabs on it because i do 
think it has massive commerce implications um but

1:22:37.680,1:22:45.200
hey i mean uh it's it's crazy times man it's 
wild time yeah yeah what um yeah i i've been

1:22:45.200,1:22:51.520
a little out of the loop recently so um how's 
everything going future commerce i mean you guys

1:22:51.520,1:23:01.040
are out of control like out of control some of 
the stuff you guys are doing and ten employees

1:23:01.040,1:23:08.480
uh raising around um are you serious yeah yeah are 
we live are we recording still we're still live

1:23:08.480,1:23:15.440
man okay i'm raising around i'm not going to tell 
anybody when or how much uh on here um and so uh

1:23:16.400,1:23:23.440
yeah it's it's a it's a whole thing um it's it's 
gigantic um very proud of what we have there and

1:23:23.440,1:23:29.040
we've got a new project launching 
in uh a few weeks time uh called 9x9

1:23:29.920,1:23:35.440
a lot of cool stuff man we've got a you know we've 
got freaking tax nexus in multiple states and

1:23:36.400,1:23:41.440
payroll and ar and ap and it's very much a 
business that's you know that takes a lot

1:23:41.440,1:23:48.560
of effort to run it's very hard to have a side 
project yeah yeah it's crazy that's seven figs

1:23:48.560,1:23:55.520
of revenue baby crushing it are you serious 
dead serious dude that's hashtag building

1:23:56.720,1:24:06.240
building public um it is wild right it's 
wild insane it is my tax bill is also insane

1:24:09.200,1:24:13.520
so i mean you've got to be well i guess we'll 
talk more offline about the future plans but

1:24:13.520,1:24:19.600
i mean you've got to be oh we've got some 
plans we got more time into it rocket fuel

1:24:20.320,1:24:25.920
you know we've we've we're we're doing some 
uh some huge stuff you know there's there's

1:24:25.920,1:24:31.200
actually i do want to talk a little bit about the 
problem that needs to be solved in trade media

1:24:31.200,1:24:40.080
um if e-commerce is getting bigger uh 
why isn't the the total number of like

1:24:40.880,1:24:47.120
content consumers in e-commerce growing 
and i have some proof points there uh

1:24:47.840,1:24:54.160
you know at right point i i govern a pretty 
large performance marketing budget and um

1:24:54.160,1:24:58.800
you know i i sit in a part of the org where i'm 
part of you know part of what i do is oversee

1:24:58.800,1:25:04.880
demand gen and anytime somebody says they govern 
a budget you know that that's a healthy budget you

1:25:04.880,1:25:10.000
know they're not they're not running a budget 
we spend we spend some money governing that

1:25:10.000,1:25:16.080
yeah we govern it we don't we you know we 
don't deploy a budget or run a budget we govern

1:25:16.080,1:25:23.840
the budget government um yeah yeah so yeah 
it's a it is a very uh it's an eye-opening

1:25:23.840,1:25:30.080
thing that i have insight into every single 
retail trade publication how big their list is

1:25:30.080,1:25:34.880
how much influence they have what their open rates 
are what their click-through rates are and i know

1:25:34.880,1:25:39.520
what content they're producing and they're all 
doing the same shtick they're reporting on what's

1:25:39.520,1:25:45.600
happening right now with very few exceptions 
um emarketer might be one of the exceptions

1:25:45.600,1:25:53.120
but in reality you know retail dive retail brew 
nrfs list like they're all addressing the same

1:25:53.120,1:25:59.440
and fifty thousand people that's it and 
and if you if you look at like you know

1:26:00.480,1:26:04.880
what is what i forget what the number is but 
e-commerce penetration is growing you know

1:26:04.880,1:26:11.920
year over year we have there's there's very few 
people to hire in our space we we we lack jobs

1:26:11.920,1:26:16.000
uh e-commerce is going to continue to grow 
and it's going to be boom town pretty soon

1:26:16.000,1:26:22.640
like we need more content consumers in for 
trade and and business media in e-commerce

1:26:22.640,1:26:28.080
and you have to go create those you can't 
just go find them these people don't listen

1:26:28.080,1:26:33.200
to professional business content they're not 
entrepreneurs they're people in order to cash

1:26:33.200,1:26:38.800
in order management and return logistics and 
supply chain and you have to create content

1:26:38.800,1:26:45.600
specific to what they care about and only that and 
and so the way that we'll succeed is when we get

1:26:45.600,1:26:49.680
in front of those people with something that they 
actually care about until then they're listening

1:26:49.680,1:26:55.600
to joe rogan pretty much non-stop on repeat um 
and you have to compete with that like that's

1:26:55.600,1:26:59.680
what you're competing with and and that's where 
the absence of like business media is not fun

1:27:00.560,1:27:07.760
there's no fun and there's no like voice or tone 
it's in it it's so interesting because with the um

1:27:08.960,1:27:15.200
not e-commerce way but with the bitcoin stuff 
i've been i've gone from previously listening

1:27:15.200,1:27:22.560
to like comedy podcasts and stuff like that and 
really kind of unplugging from like work like

1:27:22.560,1:27:29.040
like learning podcast which which for many years 
i was i was spending a lot of time doing that um

1:27:29.600,1:27:34.960
and um so it's kind of in this like unplugging 
stage and then just recently like like two weeks

1:27:34.960,1:27:40.160
ago i've started listening to podcasts and i'll 
start this net and then all and then there's i

1:27:40.160,1:27:47.600
don't know have six or seven that i'm and and i'm 
like i'm spending hours so i'm like a new content

1:27:47.600,1:27:55.200
consumer in in in this particular you know niche 
of the bitcoin stuff um and i'm just listening to

1:27:55.200,1:28:02.560
hours a day of this stuff it's like i'm like fired 
up on it and and and i've sort of stopped like

1:28:02.560,1:28:08.880
listening to the kind of entertainment oriented 
stuff yeah um and and i'm i'm just in this weird

1:28:08.880,1:28:15.360
like like stage where i'm just wanting to to learn 
but it's funny you mentioned that because it's um

1:28:17.040,1:28:23.040
some of those dynamics right of somebody 
getting into a certain um profession like

1:28:23.040,1:28:28.640
business oriented work wearing a professional 
type of content and then eating it up you know

1:28:29.520,1:28:40.960
and and and i'll say um there's a myth that 
goes around too of the uh well business

1:28:40.960,1:28:48.560
media took a hit during you know post pandemic 
because people didn't have a commute right um

1:28:50.800,1:28:57.280
like i would dare anyone listening to this uh to 
open up their phone uh and maybe you too and like

1:28:57.280,1:29:02.000
i want you to go to your screen time and you tell 
me what your screen time is right now oh yeah it's

1:29:02.000,1:29:07.520
gonna you open it up gonna be ugly it's ugly right 
like you're spending 10 11 hours a day looking at

1:29:07.520,1:29:13.920
stuff on your phone it's that you just don't have 
like we have a and we're incredibly attuned now

1:29:13.920,1:29:19.600
to things that are boring and we don't have time 
for it because we don't have to be bored anymore

1:29:19.600,1:29:24.320
humanity doesn't have to be bored and that 
is that is what you're competing with it's

1:29:24.320,1:29:29.520
not that it's not that people don't have a 
commute it's that there are things that are

1:29:29.520,1:29:34.640
infinitely more interesting in other channels 
for them to go pay attention to and there is

1:29:34.640,1:29:42.080
like plenty of advice to be found of like how to 
run your email better on tick tock than there is

1:29:42.080,1:29:46.160
in whatever podcast you subscribe to that 
clavio's sponsoring and by the way i love

1:29:46.160,1:29:51.840
clavio and they sponsor future commerce so please 
keep doing business with us go to clayview.com

1:29:57.120,1:30:00.880
that's one of the that's one of the challenges 
that we have right now is that you have to

1:30:00.880,1:30:05.520
compete with the joe rogans of the world um you 
have to compete that's what you're competing for

1:30:05.520,1:30:12.960
attention with right so let's yeah let's let's 
solve that and we can create prolific consumers

1:30:12.960,1:30:19.120
it uh in trade media if it had something worth 
listening to i'm not talking about actionable

1:30:19.120,1:30:27.440
insights i'm talking about like humor and fun 
and high concept like we we lack high concept

1:30:27.440,1:30:35.040
shows here like do you i listen to a podcast it's 
absolutely preposterous um and it's it's uh uh

1:30:35.600,1:30:47.040
it is the show is a mock draft of like films with 
a very specific like shtick to them it's like only

1:30:47.040,1:30:54.480
films that featured jesus christ what are the top 
seven films you know and you know films where a

1:30:54.480,1:30:58.400
character is killed in the first 10 minutes what 
are the top ten you know film or they're in the

1:30:58.400,1:31:02.960
first scene so then they go through those actual 
and then they'll like argue about it for i'm not

1:31:02.960,1:31:08.160
for four and a half hours kaelin i'll listen 
to like that podcast on a run because it's fun

1:31:09.200,1:31:14.240
and that's the that's the problem right like i 
i listen to this other show where a guy pretends

1:31:14.240,1:31:22.640
to be uh george lucas and his co-host on the 
show pretends to be wado who was the muppet who

1:31:22.640,1:31:28.800
like imprisoned both anakin skywalker and his 
mom and the two of them pretend like they're on

1:31:28.800,1:31:34.800
a game show interviewing celebrities like it's 
called george lucas presents i believe and it's

1:31:34.800,1:31:41.120
a comedy satire show it is preposterous but we 
don't have that kind of like high concept humor

1:31:41.120,1:31:48.080
in trade media anyway it's really interesting 
i i was listening to a couple of um like comedy

1:31:48.080,1:31:58.240
podcasts where it's like just a single guy 
ranting for by himself on a podcast and uh

1:31:58.240,1:32:04.000
like bill burr has one you know and uh and 
those are great anyway monologue shows are great

1:32:04.800,1:32:09.280
yeah and it's it's kind of like i'm 
i'm sitting there and i'm going it's so

1:32:10.560,1:32:16.400
we talk about you know sort of podcast as 
an a as a medium as a media as a medium

1:32:17.040,1:32:21.360
um right like there's a lot of podcasts that are 
super highly produced and things like that and

1:32:21.360,1:32:28.560
then you just have a guy you know that's just 
ranting into the air for an hour and it can be

1:32:29.600,1:32:35.920
interesting or like and that's an incredible it's 
an incredible skill too right like that right that

1:32:35.920,1:32:39.760
shouldn't be taken lightly like it takes an 
incredible amount of skill to be able to just

1:32:39.760,1:32:45.440
like talk and hold command someone's attention 
single-handedly with like a single voice for

1:32:45.440,1:32:53.360
an hour that's yeah i don't know it's interesting 
like absolutely not yeah yeah yeah like no i know

1:32:53.360,1:32:58.880
i mean that's that's like one and a bajillion um 
to be able to do that and and it's interesting

1:32:58.880,1:33:04.000
because right now the stuff i'm listening to like 
a lot of times you don't necessarily want like

1:33:04.640,1:33:09.520
a lot of it isn't very polished it's just like 
a couple like a guy or a couple guys talking

1:33:09.520,1:33:16.000
and it's it's um what's the word it's more kind 
of raw and authentic and they're just talking

1:33:16.000,1:33:23.920
about you know this or that and sometimes when you 
hear something really polished like for me like if

1:33:23.920,1:33:29.840
i hear something polish it's it almost sounds a 
little funny to my ear because i'm just used to

1:33:30.720,1:33:35.840
you know what i mean like this kind of more you 
and i are both attuned to hearing and edited show

1:33:36.800,1:33:44.400
right like a sterile right having all the gaps 
removed having all the yeah filler words removed

1:33:44.400,1:33:50.080
right we know what that sounds like yeah yeah it 
takes me right out of it honestly yeah exactly

1:33:50.080,1:33:55.520
yeah exactly um it's it's i don't know it's almost 
a stylistic thing you get used to certain style

1:33:56.400,1:34:03.520
um but yeah no it is it is it's interesting 
man because i was very much like doing a lot of

1:34:03.520,1:34:08.160
entertainment stuff on my phone and i've gone 
in and out of phases of like wanting to learn

1:34:08.960,1:34:17.280
a lot and it's just it's crazy how much you can 
learn by just jumping into podcasts if you want

1:34:17.280,1:34:23.040
to right like it like if there's a topic out there 
that you want to just dive into you know and for a

1:34:23.040,1:34:27.280
lot of people that you know maybe talk was part 
of that for them for their magento journey and

1:34:27.280,1:34:31.840
whatever and and i'm sure there's a ton tons 
of people that future commerce is that but

1:34:32.560,1:34:40.720
um you really can just like i mean uh but but but 
it's like a it's like where are you as a person

1:34:40.720,1:34:45.360
you know like i like as a person you can 
be in a stage where you're just kind of

1:34:45.360,1:34:51.840
more looking for entertainment you're not really 
looking for the educational content you're just

1:34:51.840,1:34:58.000
not that interested in it you just don't have 
the um attention span you know what i mean and

1:34:58.000,1:35:05.520
it just can kind of well i it's very from time 
to time i i would even say that there's the

1:35:07.840,1:35:11.440
most of this especially if 
it's audio content is consumed

1:35:13.120,1:35:20.080
while you're consuming something else like it's 
it's not it's not like it requires all of your

1:35:20.080,1:35:26.240
attention to participate in fact a lot of tv is 
this way today too right a lot of tv is is made

1:35:26.960,1:35:37.760
to second screen um it's it's uh where did i read 
this article in slate i forget where i read it uh

1:35:37.760,1:35:45.360
basically that shows are created specifically to 
have a cadence that like it only requires you to

1:35:45.360,1:35:50.080
have to like look up and see what's happening 
every like 15 to 20 seconds like shows are

1:35:50.080,1:35:54.800
specifically created for you to not have to pay 
full undivided attention to them anymore i'm like

1:35:54.800,1:36:01.280
that kind of tracks with me like that's because 
a lot of shows are garbage um yeah so you know

1:36:02.560,1:36:06.720
podcasts in particular are the things that you're 
doing while you're on the way to other things

1:36:07.280,1:36:10.960
it's the thing that you're doing while you're 
doing something else right you're going out for

1:36:10.960,1:36:16.000
a run or you're you know you're working out in 
the garage or whatever you're working on the yard

1:36:16.000,1:36:19.040
um they're the things that 
you do that sort of happen

1:36:22.000,1:36:25.280
are you a full naked sauna man i bet you are no

1:36:25.280,1:36:29.680
everybody is everybody assumes that i 
mean nobody like like nobody goes into

1:36:29.680,1:36:33.360
the sun and they well there's this one 
random dude that does but like everybody

1:36:33.360,1:36:38.800
everybody is dressed and everybody is like has 
shorts on in the sonics shorts on in the song

1:36:42.080,1:36:48.480
and uh sean at any time every time i mentioned to 
me they're like are you naked in the sun i'm like

1:36:48.480,1:36:54.160
no no no i mean on tuesdays you know that's 
maybe yes on tuesdays uh if i were naked in

1:36:54.160,1:36:59.840
the sauna i would like prop my leg up on on 
the like on the on the seat and just stretch

1:37:02.240,1:37:10.720
you know really lean into it you know what's 
funny man is i was thinking about this the other

1:37:10.720,1:37:16.160
day there's all these comedy podcasts listening 
podcasts and i was going you know people would

1:37:16.160,1:37:21.280
joke about how mage talk is like you know 20 
percent content or whatever percent content

1:37:21.280,1:37:26.480
and i was thinking of myself and i was going 
you know i think mage talk was a comedy podcast

1:37:27.280,1:37:33.840
like i think like you know like the world's 
worst punchline because it was about magenta

1:37:35.920,1:37:42.400
but i think you're right i think you're right you 
know like and i was thinking uh you know we have

1:37:42.400,1:37:49.760
a good time and stuff and i love how now all of 
our episodes are meta episodes where we just talk

1:37:49.760,1:37:58.240
about the podcast itself we talk about the show 
that used to be uh on the show that now is it's

1:37:58.240,1:38:04.880
how dare you kailyn how dare you actually i 
have two i have two guys uh at right point who

1:38:05.520,1:38:11.360
uh were prolific consumed talk about prolific 
consumers they were very very big fans of mage

1:38:11.360,1:38:17.440
talk um really and ask all the time when is it 
coming back and like they they've told me both

1:38:17.440,1:38:22.960
uh they've both told me no offense you know 
future commerce isn't fun mage talk was fun

1:38:22.960,1:38:27.520
and i like i've taken that i've taken 
that to heart man like i totally get that

1:38:27.520,1:38:33.920
mage shock was a lot of freaking fun um be like 
hey future carvers makes seven figures so uh don't

1:38:33.920,1:38:38.000
worry i'm gonna go chase that 
you know what's fun liquidity

1:38:41.040,1:38:45.360
you know it's fun buying a thousand 
dollar nfts on my cat that's right

1:38:47.200,1:38:53.600
just just you know by buying a 
bunch of pixel kitties no big deal

1:38:53.600,1:38:58.720
just because i can't maybe no but actually 
as i'm thinking it through like maybe that

1:38:58.720,1:39:06.720
is a like a podcast thesis that you could really 
run with is like you know um you know that that

1:39:06.720,1:39:14.000
fun comedy angle with some you know content 
thrown in there right like yeah it's the biggest

1:39:14.720,1:39:19.840
it's the biggest thing that uh i i think is 
missing in this place it's probably the thing that

1:39:19.840,1:39:26.080
morning brew has sort of attempted to do 
um in the newsletter space is like have

1:39:26.960,1:39:33.920
have a personality and i wouldn't even say it 
has to be humor like just have a personality

1:39:33.920,1:39:41.920
and i think that's what lacks a lot is is 
just likable people who are you know who

1:39:43.440,1:39:47.200
i don't know they may you may not have been 
i don't know maybe likable is the wrong word

1:39:47.200,1:39:52.160
like people who don't have the wrong word it's 
definitely the wrong word and i'm thinking about

1:39:52.160,1:39:59.200
that okay i'm a lot of people don't like me i 
get that um but there's and and i know i mean

1:39:59.200,1:40:05.040
like i don't even like you so this is it helps 
it helps to be honest in this in this situation

1:40:05.600,1:40:11.600
um but but there's something that's endearing 
that you sort of like grow to love the character

1:40:11.600,1:40:18.640
of the person that you listen to over a long 
period of time and uh i i've listened to this

1:40:18.640,1:40:25.440
you know movie podcast for a decade now called the 
film cast um previously called the slash film cast

1:40:25.440,1:40:29.520
and they have like sticks and they have 
tropes and they have their own in jokes and

1:40:30.480,1:40:37.440
i like i'm gonna hear them say the same thing 
every episode like there's just it's kind of

1:40:37.440,1:40:42.480
endearing and it's like it's the it's your warm 
cup of coffee it's like it's the thing that

1:40:42.480,1:40:49.280
like it it's what makes that show that show that 
could never be done by anyone else and um and and

1:40:49.280,1:40:53.440
they're funny i i don't but i wouldn't describe 
it as a comedy podcast they're funny but i

1:40:54.160,1:40:58.480
uh it just has to have a personality and 
i think that's what's lacking so much

1:41:00.640,1:41:05.280
if you even put one ounce of thought or 
effort into giving your piece of media some

1:41:05.280,1:41:10.640
personality or a voice like apparently you can 
sell that for you know hundreds of millions of

1:41:10.640,1:41:17.600
dollars to business insider like if it's like 
a lot of a lot of morning brews personality is

1:41:17.600,1:41:24.800
is you know is is kind of fun and quippy 
and a little and and you know but it's it's

1:41:24.800,1:41:31.200
it's not like they're they're not writing you 
know the next great american you know comedy album

1:41:31.200,1:41:37.360
they're it's a pun in a headline for crying out 
loud it's almost like lowest effort possible

1:41:38.640,1:41:45.600
so anyway what's going on with commerce hero these 
days brother chugging along man chugging along

1:41:45.600,1:41:54.000
posting the tweets uh you know um getting posted 
making these jobs doing the stuff um i've i've

1:41:54.000,1:42:00.320
actually been thinking about maybe pivoting into 
like bitcoin with like recruiting and hiring stuff

1:42:00.320,1:42:03.520
i'll tell you right now do you know 
what's missing in the ecosystem

1:42:04.400,1:42:07.840
is is blockchain developers and 
web three developers people need

1:42:08.960,1:42:15.360
right folks that can that can develop on chain 
uh technologies ethereum in particular um smart

1:42:15.360,1:42:24.560
contract developers it's it's desperately needed 
and um and you owe me money for that idea so um

1:42:25.600,1:42:34.080
tm i just i just trademarked it so okay i've done 
a little bit of kind of research into into it and

1:42:34.080,1:42:39.840
it feels but more than anything i think you know 
you have to really genuinely be interested in a

1:42:39.840,1:42:47.600
space to really make connections network really 
kind of really kind of get to know authentically

1:42:48.240,1:42:52.480
the community in order to in order to be able to 
make good connections and stuff so that just takes

1:42:52.480,1:42:58.160
a lot of time and a lot of interest and dedication 
stuff but i'm finding myself interested in now who

1:42:58.160,1:43:03.120
knows how long that'll last i mean you know 
i am it might last like three more weeks um

1:43:03.120,1:43:09.040
but it's it's just fun but that's what makes you 
so successful is like your ability to get like

1:43:09.680,1:43:17.520
hyper uh you know hyper focused on a particular 
thing yes deep on it yeah yeah so i'm just i'm

1:43:17.520,1:43:22.640
just hoping we love you for that thank you 
i just hope that sticks around because it's

1:43:22.640,1:43:26.000
it's fun you know it's fun when you're excited 
about something and you're learning and

1:43:27.120,1:43:32.800
um yeah so that's uh that's been cool 
man i'm not going to get too much into

1:43:32.800,1:43:36.480
the bitcoin stuff because i know it's going to 
drive everybody great magento community hates

1:43:36.480,1:43:43.200
bitcoin by the way like by and large they're 
either not at all interested or actively hated

1:43:43.200,1:43:50.800
99.9 which is like okay that it is what it is 
it's just like i like the magento community by and

1:43:50.800,1:43:58.480
large hates bitcoin more than like you could pick 
a demographic like grandparents over 70 years old

1:43:58.480,1:44:04.960
like they probably only like 96 dislike 
bitcoin and the magenta community it's 99

1:44:04.960,1:44:10.160
i don't know i don't know why but that's you 
know that's the uh that's the response i've

1:44:10.160,1:44:16.800
gotten so far so i'm going to leave it alone 
i'm going to even be yep yeah i gotcha um

1:44:16.800,1:44:23.440
uh uh well we we don't need to talk anymore about 
it but i i will say imagine if you had bought

1:44:23.440,1:44:29.200
into bitcoin when we first talked about it and 
imagine if i hadn't lost my bitcoin paper wallet

1:44:31.040,1:44:40.400
back in 2016 um yeah it hurts bad hurts real 
bad you got it does it's real he does it's yeah

1:44:40.400,1:44:46.800
it's like you gotta just hi you know it's it's 
you gotta just not replay the past you know and

1:44:46.800,1:44:52.000
i've done some calculations believe you me i look 
it up i go back to that date what if i put money

1:44:52.000,1:44:58.640
in there oh yeah okay but um but anyway i mean 
if you could run if you had like i'll i'll tell

1:44:58.640,1:45:08.800
you right now the the very first um mention of 
bitcoin on mage talk was episode six um whoa

1:45:10.320,1:45:17.760
and and uh hold on i'll tell you right now uh 
it was in the show notes episode six october

1:45:17.760,1:45:30.160
6th 2014 kaelyn and it says um well let me tell 
you let me tell you all the all the things here um

1:45:32.640,1:45:34.320
so this is what we're talking about at the time

1:45:35.760,1:45:46.000
uh one it says uh it seems crazy to kailyn 
more magenta stores aren't sold with solid

1:45:46.000,1:45:50.960
specialized magento hosting and kailyn 
is having a great experience with senasi

1:45:54.240,1:46:01.920
um and then it says the jamaican bobsled team 
from the winter olympics this year were funded

1:46:01.920,1:46:09.520
by dogecoin paypal is now accepting bitcoin 
phillip is going to buy a carpenter's pencil

1:46:09.520,1:46:17.600
at home depot for his five dollars worth of 
bitcoin via paypal so if you went and looked if

1:46:17.600,1:46:22.480
you went and looked is dinner ready all right 
i'll be right there um if you if you did five

1:46:22.480,1:46:34.400
what was five dollars okay five dollars of bitcoin 
in 2014 would be worth hold on you ready for this

1:46:37.920,1:46:42.320
yeah hold on i'm gonna tell you right now 
it's gonna hurt it's gonna hurt too much um

1:46:49.600,1:46:55.040
it says if you yeah if you bought 
if you yeah it would be worth uh um

1:46:56.000,1:46:58.560
where is this calculator 
why is this taking so long

1:47:00.720,1:47:01.220
hold on

1:47:04.880,1:47:08.960
bitcoin return calculator i found it this 
is this is great content we're doing this

1:47:08.960,1:47:17.680
right now starting investment five dollars 
starting date october 6 2014 ending date

1:47:19.280,1:47:22.400
calculate i would have hundred 
dollars right now kaelin

1:47:23.280,1:47:30.880
688 dollars and 30 cents that's a lot 
of moolah for five dollars it's very sad

1:47:33.040,1:47:33.540
okay

1:47:38.560,1:47:44.320
i will give you some bitcoin i will give you 
that's true kailyn will i will i will send you

1:47:44.320,1:47:52.880
some satoshi's if you step step this far along 
uh but i hope you have a great time for the

1:47:52.880,1:47:59.760
rest of your day for the rest of your life and 
until the next episode of mage talk in 20 some

1:48:00.480,1:48:05.200
months or weeks or years check out future commerce 
if you're looking for some more consistent content

1:48:08.720,1:48:09.920
every week