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December 28, 2019 00:14
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| "Id": "983B1A2E-7C75-4466-991B-B2174C324DD6", | |
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| "TimeStamp": "2019-12-28 00:12:37 +0000", | |
| "Url": "https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21893599" | |
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| "Body": "<html op=\"item\"><head><meta name=\"referrer\" content=\"origin\"><meta name=\"viewport\" content=\"width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0\"><link rel=\"stylesheet\" type=\"text/css\" href=\"news.css?Ou76CMPzH4swfVzPTmSN\">\n <link rel=\"shortcut icon\" href=\"favicon.ico\">\n <title>Electric vehicle is Turkey’s first fully domestically-produced car | Hacker News</title></head><body><center><table id=\"hnmain\" border=\"0\" cellpadding=\"0\" cellspacing=\"0\" width=\"85%\" bgcolor=\"#f6f6ef\">\n <tr><td bgcolor=\"#ff6600\"><table border=\"0\" cellpadding=\"0\" cellspacing=\"0\" width=\"100%\" style=\"padding:2px\"><tr><td style=\"width:18px;padding-right:4px\"><a href=\"https://news.ycombinator.com\"><img src=\"y18.gif\" width=\"18\" height=\"18\" style=\"border:1px white solid;\"></a></td>\n <td style=\"line-height:12pt; height:10px;\"><span class=\"pagetop\"><b class=\"hnname\"><a href=\"news\">Hacker News</a></b>\n <a href=\"newest\">new</a> | <a href=\"front\">past</a> | <a href=\"newcomments\">comments</a> | <a href=\"ask\">ask</a> | <a href=\"show\">show</a> | <a href=\"jobs\">jobs</a> | <a href=\"submit\">submit</a> </span></td><td style=\"text-align:right;padding-right:4px;\"><span class=\"pagetop\">\n <a href=\"login?goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599\">login</a>\n </span></td>\n </tr></table></td></tr>\n<tr id=\"pagespace\" title=\"Electric vehicle is Turkey’s first fully domestically-produced car\" style=\"height:10px\"></tr><tr><td><table class=\"fatitem\" border=\"0\">\n <tr class='athing' id='21893599'>\n <td align=\"right\" valign=\"top\" class=\"title\"><span class=\"rank\"></span></td> <td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893599' href='vote?id=21893599&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"title\"><a href=\"https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-autos/new-turkish-electric-car-project-investment-seen-at-3-7-billion-idUSKBN1YV09E\" class=\"storylink\">Electric vehicle is Turkey’s first fully domestically-produced car</a><span class=\"sitebit comhead\"> (<a href=\"from?site=reuters.com\"><span class=\"sitestr\">reuters.com</span></a>)</span></td></tr><tr><td colspan=\"2\"></td><td class=\"subtext\">\n <span class=\"score\" id=\"score_21893599\">193 points</span> by <a href=\"user?id=emrehan\" class=\"hnuser\">emrehan</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893599\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893599\"></span> | <a href=\"hide?id=21893599&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599\">hide</a> | <a href=\"https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Electric%20vehicle%20is%20Turkey%E2%80%99s%20first%20fully%20domestically-produced%20car&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix&page=0\" class=\"hnpast\">past</a> | <a href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=Electric%20vehicle%20is%20Turkey%E2%80%99s%20first%20fully%20domestically-produced%20car\">web</a> | <a href=\"fave?id=21893599&auth=54674a8cedbf2142366e0875b750ce27820b0ca7\">favorite</a> | <a href=\"item?id=21893599\">82 comments</a> </td></tr>\n <tr style=\"height:10px\"></tr><tr><td colspan=\"2\"></td><td>\n <form method=\"post\" action=\"comment\"><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"parent\" value=\"21893599\"><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"goto\" value=\"item?id=21893599\"><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"hmac\" value=\"4718bc9e73f8d672e2a2bad6f2d7cf09658e518d\"><textarea name=\"text\" rows=\"6\" cols=\"60\"></textarea>\n <br><br><input type=\"submit\" value=\"add comment\"></form>\n </td></tr>\n </table><br><br>\n <table border=\"0\" class='comment-tree'>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894156'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894156' href='vote?id=21894156&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=rolleiflex\" class=\"hnuser\">rolleiflex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894156\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894156\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"23\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894156)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I gotta say this makes a surprising amount of sense.<p>- Turkey is the perfect size for a relatively beefy electric car battery to make through in one charge, effectively removing the range anxiety.<p>- This car will likely be immediately competitive in at least the Turkish market because Turkish taxes are crazy on transport. Gasoline is taxed at ~70%, cars are taxed at 68% (50% + 18% VAT). A domestic car will probably avoid the 50% on purchase and a domestic electric car will entirely avoid taxes on gas. Taxes make this a good deal at almost any price the average Turkish consumer can buy.<p>- With the current very low, out of whack exchange rate (1USD:6TRY) this will also become competitive in at least Southern European markets fairly fast as well.<p>- Since this is government sponsored they can also do a fairly fast rollout of electric charging stations by offering generous incentives. If that doesn’t work, they have the eminent domain hammer, and they will definitely just build it themselves as part of the electric service.<p>- This also avoids the heavy industry required to build ICE cars, which has environmental costs. That cause is becoming popular with the electorate as well, exemplified in the stiff backlash against the country’s first nuclear reactor.<p>- Lastly, Turkey has been building cars for the past 35 years and it’s gotten pretty good at it - many of the entry to mid level marques of European conglomerates are built in Turkish factories. This is an entry into luxury segment, it is <i>not</i> an entry into car manufacturing. That knowledge of being able to build safe and solid European cars already exists in there. If you’ve visited Europe, you likely already ridden a Turkish-made car (taxis) and if you live in Europe, chances are you might own one without knowing.<p>- As a bonus point, I would say the choice of an Italian designer over a Turkish one bodes well for the effort because somebody actually made a level headed, reasoned call on this and not a nationalistic one.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894156&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894156\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894266'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894266' href='vote?id=21894266&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ptaipale\" class=\"hnuser\">ptaipale</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894266\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894266\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"7\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894266)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">If Turkey intends to sell domestic cars at lower taxes than imported / ones manufactured by foreign companies in Turkey, then it can expect repercussions in its free trade deals with other countries.<p>Not that Erdogan couldn't have such arrogant ideas, but it's not going to fly like that.<p>Also, I don't get that idea about Turkey being perfect size for making through its area with an electric car. Turkey is not a small country, Istanbul-Ankara is 450 km, Ankara-Gaziantep is 700 km, and that's not yet even close to "through" the country. Not that this is necessarily so relevant.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894266&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894266\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894499'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894499' href='vote?id=21894499&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=rolleiflex\" class=\"hnuser\">rolleiflex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894499\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894499\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894499)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Turkey has two population clusters, one in the western side of the country along the Istanbul - Ankara - Izmir triangle, whose population is largely Turkish and connected to Europe. The second, much poorer population cluster (1/3 the size of the first) is in the Kurdish-dominated southeast whose economy is based on its interaction with the Middle East. As long as you don’t jump clusters you’re very well within the range of this car, which seems to have a 300mi range in theory. It remains to be seen how this will work in reality, but on paper it sounds plausible.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894499&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894499\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894296'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894296' href='vote?id=21894296&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=yesplorer\" class=\"hnuser\">yesplorer</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894296\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894296\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"4\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894296)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">They don't have to do anything special. Once it's made in their country, import duties a will not be applied, just like it works everywhere else.<p>That is a significant discount on the price.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894296&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894296\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894494'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894494' href='vote?id=21894494&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=sudosysgen\" class=\"hnuser\">sudosysgen</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894494\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894494\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894494)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">So far, these are taxes, not tariffs. If they want to charge it to only foreign cars, then they would be tariffs. If they are tariffs, then that will fuck their trade deals, and their domestic car industry. Which they are not in position to suffer.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894494&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894494\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894325'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894325' href='vote?id=21894325&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=chipperyman573\" class=\"hnuser\">chipperyman573</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894325\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894325\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894325)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I think GP is saying that other countries will charge similar tariffs on imported Turkish cars</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894325&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894325\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895617'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895617' href='vote?id=21895617&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=kortilla\" class=\"hnuser\">kortilla</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895617\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895617\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895617)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Import duties <i>are</i> tariffs. The only way it wouldn’t be a tariff is if it applied to domestic cars as well.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895617&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895617\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894511'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894511' href='vote?id=21894511&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=Scarbutt\" class=\"hnuser\">Scarbutt</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894511\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894511\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894511)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c9c\">Turkey high tariffs on imported cars is a response for sanctions/high tariffs imposed on the country's products.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894511&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894511\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894775'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894775' href='vote?id=21894775&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=seanmcdirmid\" class=\"hnuser\">seanmcdirmid</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894775\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894775\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894775)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">There is a huge difference between being the country someone else manufactures their cars in, and doing your own. Even if they are requiring IP-transferring joint ventures like the Chinese do, it will still take a long time for them to develop their own brands to export quality. The Japanese has a distinct advantage in that they didn’t go the joint venture route and developed their own brands directly.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894775&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894775\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895427'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895427' href='vote?id=21895427&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jacquesm\" class=\"hnuser\">jacquesm</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895427\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895427\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895427)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">And that route is pretty much closed today. If you want to go and re-do the Japanese path starting with motorcycles and then working your way up through simple cars and then more and more luxurious and complex versions then today's 'simple' car is <i>much</i> more complex than the simple cars that Japan started out with. The barrier to entry is much higher than it was in the 50's and the 60's, this goes for any manufacturer. Witness the amount of crap leveled at Tesla for fit-and-finish when none of that would have even been a footnote for a new car launch several decades ago.<p>Just for a reminder of how bad it really was: at the end of the British Leyland body assembly line men with large hammers would whack the doors from below to make them close properly. Body panels were simply not made to the same standard that they are today and people didn't care that much about such stuff.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895427&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895427\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895283'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895283' href='vote?id=21895283&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jacquesm\" class=\"hnuser\">jacquesm</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895283\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895283\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"4\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895283)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">> With the current very low, out of whack exchange rate (1USD:6TRY) this will also become competitive in at least Southern European markets fairly fast as well.<p>That depends on how it will fare in the crash tests.<p>here is some more video:<p><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLCJpE0OMfQ\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLCJpE0OMfQ</a><p><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv4bYn-JitA\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv4bYn-JitA</a><p>One comment on that last video:<p>"The country owes $ 500 billion to the outside world. It is a bit of a dream to give 22 billion Turkish liras and establish the factory of such a car and put it into mass production. Not very convincing. Because such games are played by the government in our country for years. They issue a new domestic car before each election. Whenever we launch a new vehicle, we know that there is an early election in the near future."<p>Wikipedia:<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOGG\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOGG</a><p>"The first two prototypes were produced in Italy by Pininfarina. The car manufacturing plant will be in Gemlik, Bursa."</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895283&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895283\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895468'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895468' href='vote?id=21895468&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=rolleiflex\" class=\"hnuser\">rolleiflex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895468\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895468\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"3\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895468)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Turkey and Europe uses the same crash tests and those tests are done in Europe, not in Turkey. In other words, if a car is safe to be sold in Italy, it’s safe to be sold in Turkey. If not, it’s not sellable in either. Turkey does not have its own crash crash testing rating system and legislates based on European tests.<p>The comment you’ve copied from YouTube demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of economics. Turkey’s debt load is typical of a country its size and furthermore debt itself is not a bad thing, it is a financial tool like any other. I do agree with the political aspects mentioned, however, the fact that it is also a political tool doesn’t necessarily mean it’s actually not being built.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895468&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895468\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895592'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895592' href='vote?id=21895592&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jacquesm\" class=\"hnuser\">jacquesm</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895592\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895592\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895592)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c73\">So far we have a couple of pre-production cars, I'll believe it when I see them rolling around here, Turkey has serious problems and the PR value of this is high enough that I can see this as a marketing piece rather than as a vehicle that is ready to be produced.<p>One tell tale here is that the factor apparently does not exist yet, if they were serious about production then you'd expect the factory to be ready to go at the moment of introduction, the way other car manufacturers - even small ones - do it.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895592&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895592\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895646'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"160\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895646' href='vote?id=21895646&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=rolleiflex\" class=\"hnuser\">rolleiflex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895646\">58 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895646\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895646)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I agree with you that I would not personally launch it at this stage, but again, Tesla does launches at a similar state as well. The launch date smells like Erdogan said ‘come hell or high water, we’re announcing this in 2019’. This feels the same as the very early and half built opening of the new Istanbul Airport. The guy has a fixation with dates and likely this was a compromise.<p>Turkey does have its problems, but this announcement is far too small to make any meaningful dent in them, so I would expect this is mostly domestic posturing for the 2023 election cycle. The earlier they can ship and sell at a reasonable price, the better it is for their election odds.<p>That said, the airport is getting better, and considering making a car is well within Turkey’s manufacturing capabilities, I don’t see a reason why it would be a stretch.<p>(I certainly wouldn’t buy one for the first 10 years though.)</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895646&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895646\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895596'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895596' href='vote?id=21895596&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ineedasername\" class=\"hnuser\">ineedasername</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895596\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895596\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895596)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">The problem I see is the taxes themselves. If they are making purchase and use of vehicles p prohibitively expensive, they are too high and are inhibiting growth and quality of life. Other car companies probably already reach a higher cost-quality balance than Turkey will get. There's something to be said for the economic stimulus of home grown industry, but you can also get a lot of that by working with a big manufacturer on a custom design built for & in your own country.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895596&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895596\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21896003'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21896003' href='vote?id=21896003&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=megablast\" class=\"hnuser\">megablast</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21896003\">5 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21896003\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21896003)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">> they are too high and are inhibiting growth and quality of life<p>If they are making cars more expensive, they are improving quality of life. Less death, less pollution, less huge cost of extra traffic and roads and hospitals.<p>Turkey has a fantastic bus system with very comfortable buses more like airplanes (they have a host to bring tea, and have tv's in every chair).</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21896003&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321896003\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895239'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895239' href='vote?id=21895239&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=mprev\" class=\"hnuser\">mprev</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895239\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895239\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895239)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Can you clarify your point about making it through Turkey on one charge. It’s around 1,000 miles wide so I’m not sure I understand.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895239&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895239\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895027'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895027' href='vote?id=21895027&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=tus88\" class=\"hnuser\">tus88</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895027\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895027\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"6\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895027)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Don't you need a rich economy for advanced products to be successful and profitable?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895027&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895027\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895133'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895133' href='vote?id=21895133&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=rolleiflex\" class=\"hnuser\">rolleiflex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895133\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895133\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895133)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Or a pretty yawning wealth disparity that Erdogan has created for his supporters. BMW and Porsche sell plenty of cars in Turkey, even with the obnoxious taxes mentioned above.<p>In a more neutral way of phrasing it, per-person Turkish GDP PPP is now higher than Greece and closing in on Italy. (<a href=\"https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp</a>)<p>Without commenting on who holds it, there’s plenty of wealth there.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895133&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895133\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895113'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895113' href='vote?id=21895113&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jacobush\" class=\"hnuser\">jacobush</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895113\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895113\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"4\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895113)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">They are a pretty rich economy, despite Erdogans best efforts to botch it.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895113&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895113\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895873'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895873' href='vote?id=21895873&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=teleforce\" class=\"hnuser\">teleforce</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895873\">26 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895873\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895873)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">This is ad hominem at it best. Please check the Turkey's economic statistics before and after Erdogan is in charged of Istanbul and Turkey, before you slander the person.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895873&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895873\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895798'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895798' href='vote?id=21895798&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=elfexec\" class=\"hnuser\">elfexec</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895798\">37 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895798\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895798)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Since 2003 when erdogan came to power, the turkish economy grew 4 or 5X. There are lost of areas to criticize when it comes to erdogan, but the economy really ain't it.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895798&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895798\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895952'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"160\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895952' href='vote?id=21895952&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jacobush\" class=\"hnuser\">jacobush</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895952\">13 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895952\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895952)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">As I said, <i>despite</i> his actions. It’s not like putting 100k political opponents in prison is a boost to the economy. (And to teleforce, ad hominem? Really? Someone is hot for autocrats. <i>That</i> is how you do an ad hominem.)</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895952&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895952\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893834'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893834' href='vote?id=21893834&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=neogodless\" class=\"hnuser\">neogodless</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893834\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893834\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893834)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">There's a lot more information and photos here:\n<a href=\"https://www.motor1.com/news/390036/turkey-togg-csuv-ev-automobile/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.motor1.com/news/390036/turkey-togg-csuv-ev-autom...</a><p>> Customers can choose from two different lithium-ion battery setups. The smaller option promises 186 miles while the larger pack should crack 300 miles per charge.<p>> TOGG says the rear-drive model can hit 62 miles per hour in 7.6 seconds. The dual-motor SUV will do the deed in 4.8 seconds.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893834&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893834\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893863'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893863' href='vote?id=21893863&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=redisman\" class=\"hnuser\">redisman</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893863\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893863\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"17\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893863)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Interesting to see so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market. I guess internal combustion manufacturing was so dominated by the big boys in US-DE-JP that no one really had the muscle/margins to get into the fight at that point. From what I've gleamed, electric motors are a lot simpler (less moving parts).</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893863&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893863\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894132'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894132' href='vote?id=21894132&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=duxup\" class=\"hnuser\">duxup</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894132\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894132\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894132)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">In the early days of the automobile there were hundreds of manufactures in the US alone IIRC. This seems similar in terms of seeing a lot of folks taking a shot at it.<p>We're seeing a similar thing in China.<p>Most of the companies have no chance as they're behind the ball on tech, logistics, etc.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894132&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894132\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893918'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893918' href='vote?id=21893918&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=hangonhn\" class=\"hnuser\">hangonhn</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893918\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893918\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"5\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893918)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Yeah the smart money has really gone into batteries because that's where all the "secret" sauce is. Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. There are companies working on better motors but the expected ROI is rather low and the expected effect on the car overall is low. Advances in batteries in terms of weight or density would be very dramatic because most electric cars are designed around the battery pack.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893918&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893918\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894285'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894285' href='vote?id=21894285&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=taneq\" class=\"hnuser\">taneq</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894285\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894285\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"4\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894285)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">> Induction motors are pretty well known at this point.<p>So what about this switched reluctance witchcraft that apparently gives the newer Teslas a significant advantage?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894285&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894285\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894890'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894890' href='vote?id=21894890&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=baybal2\" class=\"hnuser\">baybal2</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894890\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894890\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"3\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894890)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">It doesn't. Power to weight of ordinary well done motors is approaching 5kw per kilogram, and top tier ones even passed 10.<p>Weight of a motor is not an issue for practical considerations for EVs</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894890&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894890\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895025'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"160\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895025' href='vote?id=21895025&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=taneq\" class=\"hnuser\">taneq</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895025\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895025\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895025)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">So why do they have a huge Wh/km advantage over rivals such as Porsche? <a href=\"https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/</a></span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895025&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895025\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895198'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"200\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895198' href='vote?id=21895198&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=baybal2\" class=\"hnuser\">baybal2</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895198\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895198\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895198)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">Less aggressive regenerative breaking to compensate for cooling deficiency, and less efficient inverter.<p>Tesla being able to "turn off" front motor, and lack of differential probably also adds a little bit to efficiency.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895198&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895198\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894457'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894457' href='vote?id=21894457&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jaakl\" class=\"hnuser\">jaakl</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894457\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894457\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"7\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894457)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I lately saw presentation of VW also claiming how EV is several times “simpler” and “less parts”, and then the next slide was that their next gen similar size car is “only” about 2 times more expensive than ICE. 2 times simpler should convert to 2 times cheaper also, or what I miss here? Lithium is so expensive nowadays?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894457&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894457\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895059'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895059' href='vote?id=21895059&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=baybal2\" class=\"hnuser\">baybal2</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895059\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895059\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895059)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">No, lithium price makes very little difference to lithium battery price. All those "industry analysts" from McKinseys and such suggesting it have never set their foot in a battery factory.<p>The biggest price components of lithium cells is cobalt oxide used in cathode plates, followed by nickel in cell chemistries using them. Both are not cheap at all, and their supply is famously unstable. Metallurgical cobalt goes at $30-40 per kilo in China, and battery grade cobalt oxide at almost the same price.<p>So for a 200kg battery pack, you will be paying 2000-3000$ only for the cathode material.<p>Second after this is plainly volumes. Tooling costs are very high. Even model 3 and BAIC EU are rather low volume by industry standards. You have to add to that that EVs don't share chassis/platform with any other high volume car, and thus can't share the bodywork tooling costs.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895059&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895059\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894635'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894635' href='vote?id=21894635&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=anon73044\" class=\"hnuser\">anon73044</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894635\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894635\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894635)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Certainly more copper in an EV compared to an ICE vehicle, and the batteries more expensive as well, I presume.\nI know Tesla's use electric brake calipers as oppose to the normal hydraulic ones, not sure if other manufacturers are doing the same.\nSince the electric motor is so much smaller than an engine/transmission combo they'd have to rearrange most of the front end crumple zones.\nAdd to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894635&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894635\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894837'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894837' href='vote?id=21894837&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=unlinked_dll\" class=\"hnuser\">unlinked_dll</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894837\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894837\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894837)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">what you’re missing is that complexity doesn’t correlate to price</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894837&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894837\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895678'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895678' href='vote?id=21895678&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=kortilla\" class=\"hnuser\">kortilla</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895678\">53 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895678\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895678)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">A 100 pound bar of gold is 100 times simpler than ICE cars. Guess which one is more expensive?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895678&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895678\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894502'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894502' href='vote?id=21894502&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=sudosysgen\" class=\"hnuser\">sudosysgen</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894502\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894502\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894502)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">It's just not scaled up enough yet.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894502&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894502\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895263'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895263' href='vote?id=21895263&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=Gibbon1\" class=\"hnuser\">Gibbon1</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895263\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895263\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895263)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">For EV's the cost is about the batteries and manufacturing scaling. I think the cost of battery grade lithium isn't the full story on battery costs. Guestimation on my part is it's around $1000-2000 per car.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895263&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895263\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893938'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893938' href='vote?id=21893938&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=uniformlyrandom\" class=\"hnuser\">uniformlyrandom</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893938\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893938\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893938)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">This is a purely political statement. It is pretty easy to release cars on paper.<p>A market for political statements has always had a pretty low entrance barrier, all you need is a good PR manager.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893938&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893938\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893957'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893957' href='vote?id=21893957&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ppseafield\" class=\"hnuser\">ppseafield</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893957\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893957\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893957)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Perhaps also the demand for them is large, and the 'big boys' either ignoring or actively hampering their development requires others to step in.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893957&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893957\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894378'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894378' href='vote?id=21894378&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=JumpCrisscross\" class=\"hnuser\">JumpCrisscross</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894378\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894378\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894378)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">> <i>so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market</i><p>Electric cars are easier to make than modern ICE vehicles.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894378&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894378\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893753'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893753' href='vote?id=21893753&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=mswehli\" class=\"hnuser\">mswehli</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893753\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893753\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"23\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893753)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Honestly, think they stand a pretty good chance in making it successful, especially considering how good their domestic home appliance capabilities has become. Different things, but atleast the embedded systems/electrical engineering talent is there.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893753&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893753\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893870'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893870' href='vote?id=21893870&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=burakcosk\" class=\"hnuser\">burakcosk</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893870\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893870\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"21\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893870)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I'm from Turkey, this is just a show for always upcoming elections. Best engineers in Turkey already left the ship, and the remaining is looking for a way out</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893870&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893870\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894008'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894008' href='vote?id=21894008&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=m00dy\" class=\"hnuser\">m00dy</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894008\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894008\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"20\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894008)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Hey, I'm a Turk left the ship 6 years ago. Turkey has infinite amount of engineer supply. I'm also sure the remaining can handle this.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894008&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894008\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894093'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894093' href='vote?id=21894093&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=duxup\" class=\"hnuser\">duxup</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894093\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894093\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"18\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894093)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">"Turkey has infinite amount of engineer supply"<p>That seems unlikely.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894093&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894093\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894313'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"160\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894313' href='vote?id=21894313&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ReptileMan\" class=\"hnuser\">ReptileMan</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894313\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894313\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"17\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894313)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c73\">7000000 country could probably produce more engineering talent than it can utilize. And building everyday cars is somewhat easy compared to the aerospace, weapons, nuclear reactors or big dams/bridges/tunnels - you don't push neither material science nor laws of physics to the limit.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894313&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894313\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894547'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"200\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894547' href='vote?id=21894547&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jaakl\" class=\"hnuser\">jaakl</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894547\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894547\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894547)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">The country can also kill most of their talent psychologically, if not physically and force best to exile, with mix of repressive politics, military, no freedom s etc. There seems to be correlation of freedom in a country and innovation success.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894547&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894547\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894988'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"240\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894988' href='vote?id=21894988&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=new2628\" class=\"hnuser\">new2628</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894988\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894988\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894988)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Historically, the correlation you mention seems quite weak. Two of the most oppressive regimes of the 20th century achieved some of the most spectacular technological results.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894988&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894988\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894860'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"200\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894860' href='vote?id=21894860&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=unlinked_dll\" class=\"hnuser\">unlinked_dll</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894860\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894860\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"7\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894860)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Regressive fascists don’t tend to reach their potential engineering quality.<p>Take that number. Subtract all women and Kurds, people who speak critically of the government. Adjust for the academics held as political prisoners and brain drained talent.<p>That’s your engineering base. You can’t square the engineering circle when your government is actively engaged in repressing the population.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894860&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894860\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894964'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"240\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894964' href='vote?id=21894964&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=new2628\" class=\"hnuser\">new2628</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894964\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894964\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894964)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Why subtract women? I'm quite sure that women participation in engineering studies is higher than in most (all) western nations.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894964&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894964\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895034'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"240\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895034' href='vote?id=21895034&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=squilliam\" class=\"hnuser\">squilliam</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895034\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895034\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"3\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895034)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">German engineers during WWII seems to refute this claim. History shows that talented engineers drafted machines of mass murder with smile, as long as it would fund their departments and I'm sure there were other considerations in their decision to comply as well.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895034&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895034\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895197'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"280\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895197' href='vote?id=21895197&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=petra\" class=\"hnuser\">petra</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895197\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895197\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895197)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Many world leading scientists fled Germany after 1933: <a href=\"https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.4.20180926a/full/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.4.2018092...</a><p>And 15% of the scientists that we're fired from universities were responsible for 64% of academic citations.<p>Also, many ways Germany had the inferior war technology and progress: encryption. nuclear. Soviet tanks we're better. Germany didn't have long range bombers. British anti-aircraft systems were better.<p>And all that from a country that led the world in science and engineering before WWII.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895197&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895197\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895124'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"280\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895124' href='vote?id=21895124&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=unlinked_dll\" class=\"hnuser\">unlinked_dll</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895124\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895124\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895124)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">To the contrary, I'd argue that the expulsion of Jewish academics and their ultimate exodus or execution directly led to the Nazi's failure to develop atomic weapons.<p>As well there are notable examples of Germans who <i>didn't</i> build weapons "with a smile" for the Nazis, and the usage of slave labor in the war machine harmed their industrial capacity through sabotage.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895124&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895124\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895005'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"240\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895005' href='vote?id=21895005&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ReptileMan\" class=\"hnuser\">ReptileMan</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895005\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895005\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895005)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">File that under "Not even wrong"<p>Women in Turkey are allowed to study and participate active in the economy. Ditto with Kurds. The purges of academics were mostly in humanities.<p>There are a shitload of tensions between the white and black turks, between turks and kurds, erdogan is hardly the most pleasant person in the world and has lots of enemies, with the slowing economy country imploding at some point is not unthinkable, but so far the day to day life in Turkey is chugging along just fine.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895005&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895005\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895126'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"280\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895126' href='vote?id=21895126&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=unlinked_dll\" class=\"hnuser\">unlinked_dll</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895126\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895126\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895126)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">For now.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895126&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895126\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895071'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"200\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895071' href='vote?id=21895071&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=smabie\" class=\"hnuser\">smabie</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895071\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895071\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895071)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">7m? I guess most African countries are just choke full of engineers, way more than they can utilize. Of course, having moved to one of these countries, all real construction is done by the Chinese.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895071&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895071\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895759'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"200\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895759' href='vote?id=21895759&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ailideex\" class=\"hnuser\">ailideex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895759\">42 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895759\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895759)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">> 7000000 country could probably produce more engineering talent than it can utilize.<p>South Africa has more than 50,000,000 - still can't build coal power plants without mucking it up. So ... not sure why you think what you think.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895759&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895759\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894443'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"200\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894443' href='vote?id=21894443&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=cosmodisk\" class=\"hnuser\">cosmodisk</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894443\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894443\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"5\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894443)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">With all its engineering mighty it can't even produce quality appliances (BEKO) and we are talking about cars here.As someone commented here, it all looks great on paper but as soon as you start making it, you realise it ain't that easy.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894443&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894443\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895968'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"240\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895968' href='vote?id=21895968&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=teleforce\" class=\"hnuser\">teleforce</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895968\">10 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895968\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895968)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Turkey has its own home grown aerospace industry that is an order of magnitude complexity than building a CAR [1]. IMHO they will do fine me think.<p>[1]<a href=\"https://www.tusas.com/en\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.tusas.com/en</a></span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895968&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895968\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894575'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"240\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894575' href='vote?id=21894575&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=yalph\" class=\"hnuser\">yalph</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894575\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894575\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"3\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894575)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I dont know what you are talking about. Arcelik for example produces much better quality appliances than most its US competitors. But this fact does not fit your narrative I guess.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894575&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894575\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895883'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"280\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895883' href='vote?id=21895883&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=cosmodisk\" class=\"hnuser\">cosmodisk</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895883\">25 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895883\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895883)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I'm not an American so couldn't care less about the quality of their manufacturers. On the other hand, I do know that Beko,owned by Arcelik, manufacture pretty poor quality products.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895883&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895883\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894980'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"280\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894980' href='vote?id=21894980&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=smabie\" class=\"hnuser\">smabie</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894980\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894980\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894980)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">How do you know?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894980&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894980\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894152'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"120\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894152' href='vote?id=21894152&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=csunbird\" class=\"hnuser\">csunbird</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894152\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894152\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894152)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">quantity != quality</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894152&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894152\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894147'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894147' href='vote?id=21894147&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=A4ET8a8uTh0\" class=\"hnuser\">A4ET8a8uTh0</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894147\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894147\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894147)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I am saying this as a spectator observing politics in the region. I don't want to undermine the PR value of this announcement, but Turkey appears to have capability to pull this off. Now if you said Poland..</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894147&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894147\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894428'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894428' href='vote?id=21894428&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=AcerbicZero\" class=\"hnuser\">AcerbicZero</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894428\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894428\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894428)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">So, they (reportedly) commissioned Pininfarina to do the design work, as a "joint design team" with the TOGG folks, but based on the fit/finish of the interior (and the design choices) it kind of looks like Pininfarina did the actual manufacturing of this concept car.<p>I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it might be a bit early to call this a "fully homemade car".</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894428&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894428\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895442'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895442' href='vote?id=21895442&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jacquesm\" class=\"hnuser\">jacquesm</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895442\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895442\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895442)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">The prototypes were indeed made in Italy.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895442&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895442\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895142'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895142' href='vote?id=21895142&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=adige01can\" class=\"hnuser\">adige01can</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895142\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895142\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895142)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">There were companies who are selling the same template with different color plate to the customers and lying about they designed from scratch. It seems Italians did the same.<p><a href=\"https://www.motor1.com/news/390097/togg-suv-sedan-concept-pininfarina/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.motor1.com/news/390097/togg-suv-sedan-concept-pi...</a></span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895142&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895142\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895668'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895668' href='vote?id=21895668&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=aphextron\" class=\"hnuser\">aphextron</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895668\">55 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895668\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895668)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Where are they getting the batteries?<p>Electric cars are an extremely simple, mature technology that is decades old. Building one isn't hard. The real trick is high volume production of high capacity lithium ion batteries, and the associated pack technology. This is why the Europeans are still massively behind Japan, Korea, and the US (Tesla) with EVs. They can't get enough cells to manufacture cars in high enough volume to be profitable, because they are simply buying them from LG Chem and Panasonic.<p>If Turkey isn't investing billions into battery production, then the whole endeavor is a pointless prestige project.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895668&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895668\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894134'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894134' href='vote?id=21894134&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=anonu\" class=\"hnuser\">anonu</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894134\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894134\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"4\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894134)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">One of the things that technology enables is lower barriers to entry. In the past, you had to be horizontally integrated to make a car. Even Tesla, to some extent is massively horizontally integrated as they are first movers.<p>Technology enables global supply chains. Electric cars may have fewer moving parts. The result is a "narrower" approach to integration where you can rely on others for important or critical parts.<p>Assuming they can make this car reliable and cheap - the makers only need to focus on marketing and selling to make it successful.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894134&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894134\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894438'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894438' href='vote?id=21894438&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=sho_hn\" class=\"hnuser\">sho_hn</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894438\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894438\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894438)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Even traditional car makers have a long list of suppliers, for many key components including entire drive trains.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894438&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894438\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895208'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895208' href='vote?id=21895208&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=jbay808\" class=\"hnuser\">jbay808</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895208\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895208\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895208)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Did you mean vertically integrated?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895208&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895208\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895249'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"80\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895249' href='vote?id=21895249&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=anonu\" class=\"hnuser\">anonu</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895249\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895249\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895249)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Yes - sorry - long week!<p>I meant vertically integrated, meaning a car company needs to control their supply chain.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895249&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895249\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894283'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894283' href='vote?id=21894283&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=mavdi\" class=\"hnuser\">mavdi</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894283\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894283\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894283)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I’m old enough to remember the last “first fully homemade Turkish car”. It was named Imza (Turkish for signature). I don’t remember the specifics but it was total flop with some financial fraud in the mix. Hoping for a better result this time.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894283&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894283\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895045'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895045' href='vote?id=21895045&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=smabie\" class=\"hnuser\">smabie</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895045\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895045\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"2\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895045)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">3.7bn over 13 years? There’s no way that anything will become of this. Of course, that’s not the point. I suspect that exactly one car will ever be made, the car that the despot Erdegon will get to drive in for the cameras.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895045&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895045\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895775'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"40\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895775' href='vote?id=21895775&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=ailideex\" class=\"hnuser\">ailideex</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895775\">40 minutes ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895775\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895775)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">And well off westerners will praise him for it ... see this thread - just an announcement and everyone is practically falling over themselves to pile on the praise.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895775&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895775\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894977'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894977' href='vote?id=21894977&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=bfieidhbrjr\" class=\"hnuser\">bfieidhbrjr</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894977\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894977\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894977)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">Who better to provide innovation and challenge Tesla than an autocratic government and a committee of random companies?</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894977&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894977\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21893772'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21893772' href='vote?id=21893772&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=aerovistae\" class=\"hnuser\">aerovistae</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21893772\">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21893772\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21893772)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">"Elon Musk did it, so...."</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21893772&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321893772\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895354'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895354' href='vote?id=21895354&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=uyuioi\" class=\"hnuser\">uyuioi</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895354\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895354\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895354)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">It’s over for combustion engine cars. Bring on electric competition.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895354&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895354\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895008'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895008' href='vote?id=21895008&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=smabie\" class=\"hnuser\">smabie</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895008\">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895008\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895008)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">I don’t understand what about this car is “homemade.” The headline doesn’t make any sense. And if it does, it’s in a paternalistic (maybe racist?) sort of way.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895008&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895008\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21894651'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21894651' href='vote?id=21894651&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=anticensor\" class=\"hnuser\">anticensor</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21894651\">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21894651\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21894651)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c5a\">May it be unlike Erke Dönergeci, a fraudulent group that attempted to produce a perpertual motion machine.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21894651&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321894651\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895597'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895597' href='vote?id=21895597&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=z3ncyberpunk\" class=\"hnuser\">z3ncyberpunk</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895597\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895597\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895597)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">I think I'll pass on contributing to Erdogan's genocide funding</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895597&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895597\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n <tr class='athing comtr ' id='21895328'><td>\n <table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind'><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"1\" width=\"0\"></td><td valign=\"top\" class=\"votelinks\"><center><a id='up_21895328' href='vote?id=21895328&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class=\"default\"><div style=\"margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;\"><span class=\"comhead\">\n <a href=\"user?id=OrgNet\" class=\"hnuser\">OrgNet</a> <span class=\"age\"><a href=\"item?id=21895328\">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id=\"unv_21895328\"></span><span class=\"par\"></span> <a class=\"togg\" n=\"1\" href=\"javascript:void(0)\" onclick=\"return toggle(event, 21895328)\"></a> <span class='storyon'></span>\n </span></div><br><div class=\"comment\">\n <span class=\"commtext c00\">> Erdogan first revealed plans in November 2017 here to launch a car made entirely in Turkey by 2021.<p>Electric cars are much simpler then conventional combustion engine cars... no transmission needed.<p>I'm glad that Elon was not successful in putting a transmission in the Tesla car.</span>\n <div class='reply'> <p><font size=\"1\">\n <u><a href=\"reply?id=21895328&goto=item%3Fid%3D21893599%2321895328\">reply</a></u>\n </font>\n </div></div></td></tr>\n </table></td></tr>\n </table>\n <br><br>\n </td></tr>\n<tr><td><img src=\"s.gif\" height=\"10\" width=\"0\"><table width=\"100%\" cellspacing=\"0\" cellpadding=\"1\"><tr><td bgcolor=\"#ff6600\"></td></tr></table><br><center><span class=\"yclinks\"><a href=\"newsguidelines.html\">Guidelines</a>\n | <a href=\"newsfaq.html\">FAQ</a>\n | <a href=\"mailto:hn@ycombinator.com\">Support</a>\n | <a href=\"https://github.com/HackerNews/API\">API</a>\n | <a href=\"security.html\">Security</a>\n | <a href=\"lists\">Lists</a>\n | <a href=\"bookmarklet.html\" rel=\"nofollow\">Bookmarklet</a>\n | <a href=\"http://www.ycombinator.com/legal/\">Legal</a>\n | <a href=\"http://www.ycombinator.com/apply/\">Apply to YC</a>\n | <a href=\"mailto:hn@ycombinator.com\">Contact</a></span><br><br><form method=\"get\" action=\"//hn.algolia.com/\">Search:\n <input type=\"text\" name=\"q\" value=\"\" size=\"17\" autocorrect=\"off\" spellcheck=\"false\" autocapitalize=\"off\" autocomplete=\"false\"></form>\n </center></td></tr>\n </table></center></body><script type='text/javascript' src='hn.js?Ou76CMPzH4swfVzPTmSN'></script></html>\n", | |
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