ilugc-meet-14082021-talk2.chatlog

2021-08-14 15:14:36	@mbuf	Hi all. This is the second talk on FOSS and companies.
2021-08-14 15:15:23	@mbuf	I want to mention few important points, and you can then ask your questions.
2021-08-14 15:16:18	@mbuf	This is a follow-up to an earlier discussion that we had in this channel on choosing companies
2021-08-14 15:17:19	@mbuf	The first and foremost is to have a portfolio of your own where you can showcase your Free/Libre and Open Source contributions
2021-08-14 15:17:57	@mbuf	This can be just your GitLab or GitHub link, or a list of patches, documentation changes, and other contributions to F/OSS projects that you have and are contributing to
2021-08-14 15:18:49	@mbuf	Your work, by itself, will reflect on your calibre. Once, you have this in place, it will help attract companies who are interested in hiring you
2021-08-14 15:19:44	@mbuf	By creating this portfolio of yours, you also create a name for yourself, and it helps in your branding
2021-08-14 15:20:29	@mbuf	When people start noticing your work, you will automatically get calls. 
2021-08-14 15:20:57	@mbuf	There are some people who are called as two-timers - they work a day job, and work on F/OSS projects as a hobby, as long as the employer is fine with you working on these projects
2021-08-14 15:21:42	@mbuf	It is ideal to get a job to work on F/OSS, and who appreciates the work that you do. You could try the two-timer, but, my suggestion is to go full-time with a company that understands and uses F/OSS
2021-08-14 15:21:55	@mbuf	And is willing to help you grow by contributing back to F/OSS
2021-08-14 15:22:28	@mbuf	So, the most important thing here is your network
2021-08-14 15:22:59	@mbuf	By network, I mean the F/OSS people that you know of are are acquainted with
2021-08-14 15:23:17	@mbuf	These are people who can help you grow in your career, or at least connect you with people who can help you
2021-08-14 15:23:31	@mbuf	So, it is very important to attend meet-ups and conferences, to build your network connections
2021-08-14 15:24:22	@mbuf	One other important point to note is that if you are starting in your career, it is okay to compromise on the salary, because, work experience in the domain is important
2021-08-14 15:24:43	@mbuf	So, you must go for the experience, and prove yourself. The perks and benefits will come automatically
2021-08-14 15:25:25	@mbuf	Learning is a continuous process, and your job should help you learn something every day, and F/OSS projects are ideal
2021-08-14 15:25:33	@mbuf	Any questions at this point?
2021-08-14 15:25:55	jasonbraganza	no
2021-08-14 15:26:39	@mbuf	Feel free to ask any questions hereafter. I am happy to provide guidance, after the talk on IRC as well.
2021-08-14 15:27:34	@mbuf	There are two models, Cathedral and the Bazaar, as mentioned by Eric S. Raymond
2021-08-14 15:28:06	@mbuf	Most proprietary software development companies work in a Cathedral model style, where there is a strict hierarchy and you need to only report things to your immediate supervisor
2021-08-14 15:28:51	@mbuf	You cannot question authority. In a bazaar model, there is a flat structure, where you can go and talk directly to the CEO/CTO and discuss.
2021-08-14 15:29:15	@mbuf	Most FLOSS companies operate in this model. There are few large companies who also operate small teams in a bazaar model
2021-08-14 15:29:27	@mbuf	So, it is important to have network connections to the people in these teams.
2021-08-14 15:29:32	@mbuf	Reference: http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
2021-08-14 15:29:52	@mbuf	This is where your networking skills will help you move to your next job, or find one if you are looking for it
2021-08-14 15:30:10	@mbuf	Understand how the company operates, how the team functions, what is the daily routine of a team member. 
2021-08-14 15:30:27	@mbuf	Because you are going to be working in a team, these things matter, and you should picture yourself to see if you are a good fit
2021-08-14 15:30:57	@mbuf	A lot of FLOSS start-ups operate in the bazaar model, and if you do not have any liability, then you can spend few years working in a start-up to gain experience
2021-08-14 15:31:35	@mbuf	Of course, you should do your homework on the background of the founders, whether they have funding, on whether they have a unique solution to the problem that they are solving, whether they have a niche over the competition etc.
2021-08-14 15:32:29	@mbuf	Retrospection is another important activity that you must do.
2021-08-14 15:32:51	@mbuf	How have you been doing in the last one week, one month, three months, six months, one year, three years, ten years etc.
2021-08-14 15:33:03	@mbuf	The biggest competition for you is yourself
2021-08-14 15:33:39	@mbuf	How you have been faring over time, and where do you need to be next? So, you need to write down a plan, set your targets, and work your way in achieving your goals
2021-08-14 15:33:53	@mbuf	So, the job that you do must be aligned to what you want to achieve.
2021-08-14 15:34:42	@mbuf	It must help you acquire the relevant skills or experience in your area of interest or the domain that you need to gain expertise
2021-08-14 15:35:08	@mbuf	Remember that people want to hire you because you have a skill that adds value to a project or team, and indirectly to an organization
2021-08-14 15:35:29	@mbuf	So, you need to ask yourself what is it that you bring to the table that nobody else in the team does already
2021-08-14 15:35:58	@mbuf	You need to be a master of one, and jack of all trades
2021-08-14 15:36:14	@mbuf	So, pick a domain of interest, and grow your expertise in the field over time
2021-08-14 15:36:47	@mbuf	This knowledge is what is going to help you sustain yourself over time, because you will be The person to reach out to, in case, people need help
2021-08-14 15:37:21	@mbuf	With expertise, and publicity in the F/OSS world, people will recognize you, and you will be able to grow in your career
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2021-08-14 15:37:53	@mbuf	You also need to be very patient during the early days of your career when you need to learn a lot
2021-08-14 15:38:39	@mbuf	Consistent work and continuous learning are very important
2021-08-14 15:39:02	@mbuf	Any questions at this juncture?
2021-08-14 15:39:19	sibi	No
2021-08-14 15:40:03	@mbuf	Also, try to work in an organization for at least 3-4 years. It takes time to understand how an organization works, and it will take this much time (lower bound)
2021-08-14 15:40:30	@mbuf	Jumping companies too often is not good, either. You want to show that you can stick to a company for atleast few years and gain as much experience in the process
2021-08-14 15:40:50	@mbuf	Different F/OSS companies have different business models, and different teams use different workflows
2021-08-14 15:41:10	@mbuf	Sometimes you may have to learn new tools as well. So, take it as part of your learning process.
2021-08-14 15:41:59	@mbuf	The moment you feel you are not learning anything new, and you feel there is not much growth, then it is time to shift
2021-08-14 15:42:18	@mbuf	But, before you join any company, do your homework thoroughly before accepting an offer
2021-08-14 15:42:56	@mbuf	Hopefully, from next year, the physical conferences are back on track, and you will have more opportunities to meet people
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2021-08-14 15:43:40	@mbuf	But, try to attend your local meet-ups, speak with people, see what problems people are working with, and learn from each other
2021-08-14 15:43:53	@mbuf	Your networking and communication skills are very important here
2021-08-14 15:44:19	@mbuf	That is pretty much what I wanted to say. If there are any questions, I will be happy to answer them now.
2021-08-14 15:44:48	sibi	So in your case, you always wanted to work on Ocaml compiler and have been working towards it before you got full time to work on Ocaml ? 
2021-08-14 15:46:28	@mbuf	sibi, yes and no. I liked OCaml as a language, as it is statically typed, functional and the syntax is nicer
2021-08-14 15:46:56	@mbuf	sibi, I have mostly been hired for my Free Software development skills. I just apply them to the project that I am working with, and learn along the way
2021-08-14 15:47:36	@mbuf	sibi, people sometimes want to hire if you have the technical background and aptitude to learn
2021-08-14 15:48:04	@mbuf	sibi, and you eventually have the opportunity to become an expert, if you wish
2021-08-14 15:48:07	jasonbraganza	probably an industry insight question, since i am an outsider. i understand the need to compromise on salary and i am willing to do that. but does that not set the base for everything to follow? or can i job hop confident that the industry does value what i bring to the table? and earn my due in the next few jobs?
2021-08-14 15:48:52	sibi	Thanks mbuf!
2021-08-14 15:49:18	@mbuf	sibi, you may not everything about the project, but, they see potential; you can always pick technical skills if your foundations and communication skills are strong
2021-08-14 15:49:30	@mbuf	sibi, of course, the desire to learn and seek knowledge is foremost important
2021-08-14 15:49:59	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, when you are starting, you need to prove that you are capable of delivering work, so salary is not important at this point
2021-08-14 15:50:43	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, once you show your technical skills, and that people see value in you, then you can ask for more
2021-08-14 15:51:09	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, so, you should spend lot of time learning and delivering work to justify your position
2021-08-14 15:51:39	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, the key is to be in a critical path in a product or team or company, so that you can show case your work, and also that the business is dependent on you
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2021-08-14 15:52:31	jasonbraganza	mbuf, have you ever faced a place where they did not see value? or value what you brought to the table? and then did you move? (despite like you just said, being an invaluable cog).
2021-08-14 15:52:38	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, so when starting early, it is okay to compromise on salary; you can always demand later, if you wish
2021-08-14 15:53:24	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, I do my homework first; and I choose companies where they value their people, and hence the pay is industry grade, and also if I see there is opportunity for me to continuously learn, and my employer helps me grow technically and professionally
2021-08-14 15:53:45	sibi	Jason: depends on the job, I suppose. In my second job for a startup - I joined with a salary cut. Looking back, I wouldn't do it again for that job. 
2021-08-14 15:54:04	jasonbraganza	mbuf, understood, will ask you for help and insight, once i actually have to make such a decision. thank you.
2021-08-14 15:54:19	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, avoid a salary cut, unless you gain other advantages like moving back to your own house, or being closer to family etc.
2021-08-14 15:54:37	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, life is full of compromises, but, you need to decide what the bottom line is
2021-08-14 15:54:37	mohan43u	mbuf: thanks for this beautiful talk. my question, how to find which companies/startups are FOSS oriented? even if we find such FOSS company, their goal is not aligning to what we want to become (let say different field). in this kind of situation, we have to stick with two-timer mode instead of becoming true FOSS developer. what is your opinion on this?
2021-08-14 15:54:51	@mbuf	sibi, did they give you stock options?
2021-08-14 15:55:30	@mbuf	mohan43u, this is where networking is important; there should always be a win-win situation between the employer and employee
2021-08-14 15:55:36	sibi	They did but with a four year lock in. I quit afer two years. 
2021-08-14 15:55:57	jasonbraganza	mbuf, still aways from such a thing.  will start at the bottom with no compunctions. i just wanted to have a bit of clarity on how the industry values talent. and what step 2 of my career would look like, so that i did not have to worry about the whys and the whereforse then
2021-08-14 15:55:58	@mbuf	sibi, they probably wanted a long-term commitment
2021-08-14 15:56:37	@mbuf	mohan43u, any FOSS company will care about you contributing back to the community; otherwise, their definitions are plain incorrect; I would suggest you to switch
2021-08-14 15:56:59	@mbuf	mohan43u, you have only 24 hours in a day, and two-timing can be difficult trying to switch between your passion and profession
2021-08-14 15:57:00	sibi	mbuf: yeah, agree. I wish I communicated things better.
2021-08-14 15:57:47	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, focus on your technical skills; the reason why the F/OSS community has thrived, and is still thriving today is because of technicality
2021-08-14 15:58:19	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, if the management understand F/OSS, then the company that they run will be a happy place
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2021-08-14 15:59:02	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, I wouldn't waste time working for someone who does not understand the underlying principles, because, our workflows, style of work is unique and powerful
2021-08-14 15:59:18	@mbuf	The Cathedral and the Bazaar explains this well
2021-08-14 15:59:58	jasonbraganza	mbuf, i understand. your point is to make a conscious choice to work with companies that value what we do. not the other way around.
2021-08-14 16:00:25	@mbuf	A lot of F/OSS companies have Management people who are technically very sound, and that helps; because, you can actually explain things to them, and they understand; because, they also contribute back to a project or the community
2021-08-14 16:00:51	@mbuf	jasonbraganza, yes; you are already working on solving technical problems; you don't want to get stuck in people politics;
2021-08-14 16:01:06	@mbuf	I am running out of time now
2021-08-14 16:01:43	@mbuf	Good questions. I will end the session now, but, feel free to continue the discussion on this channel later.
2021-08-14 16:02:03	sibi	Thanks mbuf!
2021-08-14 16:02:12	mohan43u	mbuf: thanks mbuf
2021-08-14 16:02:28	@mbuf	Thanks all!
2021-08-14 16:03:43	jasonbraganza	thank you mbuf. thank you folks!