#emacs.txt

[Sat Sep 17 2016]
*** Topic for #emacs: Happy GNU Emacs 25.1 Release Day! *toot*
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*** #emacs: topic set by wgreenhouse!~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse,
    2016-09-17 20:24:08
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*** #emacs URL: http://www.emacswiki.org/EmacsChannel
*** #emacs modes: +np
*** #emacs was created on 2006-11-26 08:42:33
<jlf> who cares?
<Dabian> Well, nothing bad about IRIX, I think it had its fun quirks.
<Dabian> jlf: Emacs-users on the IRIX-platform, perhaps?  [21:48]
<Dabian> ,rr
*** ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has changed mode for #emacs to +o fsbot
*** fsbot (~fsbot@unaffiliated/deego/bot/fsbot) has kicked Dabian off channel
    #emacs: *KABLAM!*  Goop from your head dribbles. Kicked by fsbot
* fsbot blows Dabian's brains all over #emacs... *BANG* ...reloading.
*** ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has changed mode for #emacs to -o fsbot
<Dabian> Oh .. you uppped the game!  Now it kicks! LoL!
<kodein> basphemy: yeah, that kinda sucks. I'd've dropped win95 support before
         irix tbh
<wasamasa> kodein: you monster, don't you like http://brause.cc/98.png
<kodein> but neither OS should be even near an internet connection since many
         years, of course
<jlf> how many emacs irix users are there?
<Dabian> kodein: I would never have supported windows (95), unless I was
         working somewhere that forced me to use it, or similar.
<basphemy> all of them are airgapped, they can't participate in your poll
<Dabian> jlf: None, Emacs doesn't support IRIX ...
<basphemy> heh
<wasamasa> come to think of it, I do no longer have that VM...
<wasamasa> so time to do the same with the dos version I guess
<CompanionCube> Isn't the DOS version the pet of one of the maintainers or
                something?  [21:49]
<wasamasa> yes it is
<jlf> i assume it's "vanishingly few"
<Dabian> Well, thank you guys very much!  I guess Guile Emacs is the hip!
<Dabian> I'll apt-get it right aways, if possible
<wasamasa> lol
<basphemy> "D
<wasamasa> you're expecting a tad too much
<basphemy> :D
<twainwek> ,rr
<fsbot> twainwek shudders as the great and powerful fsbot aims the
        all-powerful barrel of the gnu... *CLICK*
<wasamasa> Dabian: it may not be obvious, but guilemacs is basically a
           research project  [21:50]
<Dabian> wasa: Right .. so for now ... Good ole Emacs, and in the future
         .. lightning fast Guile Emacs?  [21:51]
<random-nick> guile-emacs is a research project?
<Dabian> ,guile-emacs
<fsbot> From memory, GuileEmacs is [0] GNU Emacs branch using Guile's Elisp
        compiler: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs,
        http://git.hcoop.net/?p=bpt/emacs.git
<fsbot> [1] Concise explanation of the goals:
        https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-09/msg00559.html
<wasamasa> Dabian: in ten years maybe, yes
<jlf> an unfunded niche moribund research project, to be precise  [21:52]
<random-nick> Dabian: lighting fast guile-emacs running on GNU HURD without
              GNU Mach
<CompanionCube> random-nick: haven't the attempts at migrating from Mach
                always ended in failure
<basphemy> i have one more week of hobby-emacsing before the doctor will let
           me get hit in the head again, I'm glad I actually got to see 25.1
           be released
<random-nick> CompanionCube: that's the joke
<wasamasa> Dabian: my summary from a year ago:
           https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/3gpb7u/guile_emacs_status/cu0q8h9
<Dabian> wasamasa: I wish I could help.  [21:53]
<wasamasa> Dabian: I wish anyone would do something more useful than fawning
           over it
<Dabian> Right.
<wasamasa> theoretically, it should be infinitely more attractive than regular
           emacs to contribute to, yet nothing happens
<Dabian> How many weeks would it take to compile on an rPi2 ... just a rough
         estimate?  [21:54]
<taylan> I hate paywalls.  in the age of the Internet we shouldn't have them
         for academic papers.
<Dabian> I'm guessing once I have the git-three/cvs-three/whatever .. and have
         it compiled .. then it wont take too long, to recompile ...
<random-nick> I really hope gnu hurd will manage to successfully migrate from
              gnu mach to a better microkernel while retaining development
              pace
<basphemy> taylan: the last guy that had that idea ended up dead :(
<Dabian> random-nick: gnu mack is single-core?  [21:55]
<Dabian> s/mack/mach/
<wasamasa> considering that it took me three hours and a half on a core2duo, I
           guess the slowdown is at least a factor of four  [21:56]
<random-nick> Dabian: yeah it doesn't support parallelism
<ecbrown> folks, emacs is single threaded, so the you only need one cpu for a
          GNU system
<basphemy> I have the sneaking suspicion that all the core developers of all
           major OSS projects could fit in a single classroom
<random-nick> Dabian: but it at least has a futex-like primitive
<Dabian> random-nick: That kinda makes it useless, unless you can run more of
         them in parrallel.
<edgar-rft> apples are multi-core
<edgar-rft> I've never eaten an apple with a single core  [21:57]
<random-nick> Dabian: I think that one day they will extend the scheduler to
              multiple cores
<Dabian> In the gnu mach?  I talked to someone that said you might as well
         rewrite the gnu mach from scratch ...  [21:58]
<Dabian> Then again, I guess they were into L4-stuff.
<Dabian> Or what it is calle.d
<Dabian> s/\.d/d\./
<bremner> I talked to someone who thought that Donald Trump would make a good
          president
<wasamasa> http://sel4.systems/
<Dabian> bremner: Hehe, thank you for the laugh. :)
<z0d> bremner: don't believe you  [21:59]
<bremner> busted
<wasamasa> funnily enough, it can be put on linux for the hardware support
<basphemy> bremner: I live in Florida, they're everywhere here
<Dabian> Nice wasamasa ... I checked the link.
<bremner> FSF should sell "making emacs great again" trucker caps  [22:00]
<Dabian> bremner: Hehe .. Emacs is still great ... but Guile Emacs is probably
         better in 10 years.
<Dabian> if not before.
<random-nick> the l4-hurd people reached the conclusion that if you're using
              someone else's kernel you're going to have trouble
<edgar-rft> bremner you've talked to Donald Trump?
<bremner> edgar-rft: no, it was some dude from ISIS  [22:01]
<random-nick> then there was some guy who wanted to write a custom microkernel
              for GNU HURD that will have similar features to GNU Mach but
              development on that stopped
<edgar-rft> bremner: ah, I always thought that Donald Trump is the only person
            who believes that he'd be a good president  [22:02]
<bremner> edgar-rft: no, many enemies of america also believe this
<Dabian> argh ... no GPL3 support?
         http://sel4.systems/Info/GettingStarted/license.pml  [22:03]
<bremner> I think it's the first time North Korea has endorsed a republican
          for president.
<ryouma> let's acknowledge that the president of any given country affects
         other countries greatly and thus should be elected by the world
<random-nick> yeah Viengoos is on hold since 2009
<wasamasa> I'm looking forward to GPLv4 to make licensing fun again  [22:04]
<bremner> the president of canada doesn't matter much
<Dabian> v4 is on it's way, or are you joking?
<random-nick> Dabian: fsf hopes to never have to make a gplv4
<random-nick> because that would mean people found loopholes in GPLv3  [22:05]
<wasamasa> Dabian: I'm joking because I really hate GPLv3 being incompatible
           to GPLv2
<ryouma> rudybot: could rms abscond with all the source code and move to the
         seychelles?
<rudybot> ryouma: i'd worry they might abscond with all the payments to buy
          foam ball pits
<Dabian> wasamasa: I just hate how people started removing the " GPL v2 or any
         later " stuff.  [22:06]
<Dabian> "at your option".
<random-nick> rudybot: hurd
<rudybot> random-nick: then you share them with the rest of the gnu hurd!
<bremner> Dabian: *shrug*. It's their code.  [22:07]
<Dabian> bremner: That is true, I just prefer the freedom to choose GPLv3,
         even if it does have some downfalls.
<bremner> well, in your code, you can have that freedom ;).
<Dabian> bremner: Yeah... but I don't want to rewrite everything, if you know
         what I mean. :)  [22:08]
<Dabian> I guess I just don't understand, how people can hate the GPLv3 that
         much.
<tshirts4crime> the freedom to restrict your freedom, oh how i love that.
<Dabian> tshirts4crime: Are you a BSD 2 Clause fan?  [22:09]
<wasamasa> why does this remind me of cheesy anime
<wasamasa> "You were hurt, so I've taken your wings, it's better that way"
<Dabian> I guess the old argument has two valid positions ... one says
         ... BSD-2-clause gives you more freedom ...   [22:10]
<wasamasa> one can easily imagine what happened moments later
<Dabian> The other one, says that GPL makes sure the software stays free.
<tshirts4crime> Dabian: I don't care for a 'One license fits all'. For certain
                things the BSD 2 Claus seems like a good idea.
<Dabian> tshirts4crime: I agree.
<Dabian> Crypto for instance.
<parsnip> let's just merge affect and effect into one word  [22:11]
<kodein> effact
<Dabian> As long as we live in a world with proprietary software, I want them
         to be able to include strong and effective  cryptography in their
         proprietary programs.
<Dabian> and if we don't have proprietary software, then it doesn't matter if
         you use one or the the other, I guess.
<tshirts4crime> im not really sure where the gpl would be a good fit. i guess
                it makes sense for software that primarily is for other
                programmers.  [22:12]
<parsnip> ,insult kodein
<fsbot> kodein, you tone deaf slut hound!
<Dabian> ,insult fsbot
<fsbot> fsbot, you pompous crotch balloon!
<Dabian> lol
<kodein> ,insult parsnip 
<fsbot> parsnip, you white trash dick blossom!
<kodein> ,flame parsnip 
<fsbot> *** Eval error *** Wrong type argument: hacker? parsnip
<parsnip> damnit, lol'd in public
<parsnip> ,shoot fsbot  [22:13]
* fsbot loads its C string and null terminates parsnip
<kodein> let's lol out loud
<tshirts4crime> i like to lol privately.
<Dabian> tshirts4crime: I think GPL fits most other software .. it takes
         protecting the right of the users one step further.  [22:14]
<tshirts4crime> i dont see games being free software, ever. mostly the
                commercial stuff (thats actually worth playing).
<Dabian> tshirts4crime: Well, I can see games be a special case ...   [22:15]
<Dabian> I mean .. I didn't play LinCity for long, before I started changing
         the code, so I could earn money by loosing money ... which rendered
         the game boring after a while for lack of challange ...  [22:16]
<Dabian> I was fun for a while though. :D
<Dabian> It*
<tshirts4crime> most games you're able to mod. its the biggest part of pc
                gaming.
<Dabian> I guess .. I'm not really playing on PC anymore .. a few Android
         games is about it ..   [22:17]
<Dabian> Sudoku being one of them.
<Dabian> anyhow .. it is getting late here ... I am glad things are going in
         the right direction, but kinda sad it is not going as fast as you
         would hope.  [22:18]
<ryouma> freecraft is modifiable in scheme  [22:19]
<Dabian> I enjoyed talking to you guys.  This channel has always been a
         blessing!  [22:20]
<Dabian> EOF
<taylan> basphemy: :|  [22:21]
<kodein> rudybot: retransmit
<rudybot> kodein: it could be, you need good retransmit, or perhaps redundancy
<z0d> I swear sometimes people join #emacs only because they're bored
<taylan> z0d: uh, duh?  [22:22]
<taylan> that's like the whole reason I'm here
<michaelrose> is there a better reason to connect to irc?
<z0d> I mean... talking about vaporware, like Guile Emacs and Hurd
<z0d> (I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings)
<nuk3> wasamasa: I'd asked a pretty arbitrary / vague question regarding
       tracking spurious and intermittent lag, just wanted to emphasize power
       of *M-x profiler-start/report-profiler  [22:23]
<michaelrose> https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/  [22:24]
<michaelrose> not sure if it will ever ever see much use but its not vaporware
                                                                        [22:25]
<tshirts4crime> ryouma: i only see this
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratagus which says Lua.
                                                                        [22:27]
<ryouma> tshirts4crime: i could be wrong, but there are sexps in the config
         files
<wasamasa> nuk3: are you imitating mitch hedberg?  [22:28]
<ryouma> tshirts4crime: i was able to give myself more oil so i could take the
         path to create a dark portal, which greatly improves strategy
<michaelrose> here is a question, why is it that hurd took so long to get to a
              sort of functional level when say redox is able to get to get
              off the ground in about a year and a half  [22:30]
<ryouma> ,redox
<fsbot> ryouma, You'Re being a bit brief, I would appreciate it if you would
        go into detail.   [22:31]
<ryouma> fsbot: no, that would be you
<fsbot> Try: naggum-lines technical-argument-list thingp yoda-phrases
        lebowski-data
<ryouma> rudybot: teach some sense to fsbot
<rudybot> ryouma: what about you, do you have anything to teach us??
<z0d> michaelrose: I don't know. you can tell me
<wasamasa> michaelrose: this question is only good as flamebait
<michaelrose> I don't mean it as such
<wasamasa> then go study sociology and answer it better  [22:32]
<wasamasa> we're programmers, damnit
<tshirts4crime> ,naggum-lines
<fsbot> tshirts4crime: naggum-lines: [0/16] Well, take it from an old hand:
        the only reason it would be easier to program in C is that you can't
        easily express complex problems in C, so you don't
<fsbot> [1] Languages shape the way we think, or don't.
<fsbot> [2] Sufficiently advanced political correctness is indistinguishable
        from irony. ;;[ ,more/ ,dump]
<tshirts4crime> Naggum makes everything better  [22:33]
<michaelrose> I legitimately meant is there some technical innovation that
              inherently made it harder, was it that more research had been
              done between a and b that redox could build on, is it actually
              easier to write an os in rust?
<ryouma> vas ist?
<tshirts4crime> michaelrose: maybe no one gave enough of a shit about hurd to
                give it any attention.  [22:34]
<tshirts4crime> rust is a new and shiny toy, and looks fun. c doesnt look fun.
<StephanLahl> I already used DEbian GNU/Hurd. Before they decided to start
              from scratch.
<tshirts4crime> StephanLahl: Why the capitalized DE?  [22:35]
<basphemy> oh cool, eshell has a 'clear' now  [22:36]
<stef204> hi, i have a few theme files downloaded from github, not available
          as packages. I stuck them in ~/.emacs.d/themes/ but I cannot get
          emacs to see these themes by using "load-theme"  I tried to add to
          ny init file: (add-to-list 'custom-theme-load-path
          "~/.emacs.d/themes/") but not working. Just use (add-to-list
          'load-path "~/.emacs.d/themes/") I guess?  [22:37]
<wasamasa> michaelrose: I doubt technical advantages are the reason
<stef204> s/ny/my
<jlf> stef204: C-h v custom-theme-load-path  [22:38]
<tshirts4crime> ryouma: also, before i forget, i didnt think sexps meant
                something was a lisp or scheme.
<ryouma> tshirts4crime: i had some other vague reason for thinking htat it was
         scheme specifically
<ryouma> tshirts4crime: like, a scheme operator  [22:39]
<wgreenhouse> basphemy: yes but I disagree with its `clear' so I'm keeping my
              eshell alias clear :D
<basphemy> haha
<basphemy> such is emacs
<ryouma> my clear is insert a bunch of newlines
<tshirts4crime> stef204: make sure they have -theme.el suffix
<ryouma> in shell mode
<wasamasa> wgreenhouse: careful, that might be a sign of hacker rigidity
           getting you  [22:40]
<stef204> jlf: thanks for that command, life saver
<jlf> np
<stef204> tshirts4crime: yes the do, thanks.
<basphemy> `directory-files-recursively' cool
<tshirts4crime> just making sure, we all forget the smallest things at times
                :P
<tshirts4crime> seems weird that themes need a suffix.  [22:41]
<wgreenhouse> mine is like what's now C-h f eshell/clear-scrollback  [22:43]
<StephanLahl> tshirts4crime: Because I made a typo.
<StephanLahl> michaelrose: HURD takes so long because they dumped it when it
              was almost desktop ready and started from scratch. After that
              restart they stopped worrying about any ideas of actually
              shipping something.  [22:45]
<sg2002> Anyone by any chance knows the list of *.dlls required for msys2
         emacs built with images? I have a list that literally copies like
         every dll.  [22:56]
<StephanLahl> So, with XWidgets we are almost there, aren't we? Emacs, the
              desktop shell.  [22:57]
<stef204> jlf: actually, the "~/.emacs.d/themes/" directory alreday is in the
          load path. I have this line which seems to be correct (add-to-list
          'custom-theme-load-path "~/.emacs.d/themes/")
<jlf> literally every dll?  wow..
<ryouma> stef204: wow
<tali713> xwidgets are a misnomer.
<ryouma> StephanLahl: 
<stef204> it is listed in the path when I check C h v custom-theme-load-path
                                                                        [22:58]
<StephanLahl> Thought that was about embedding X11 apps into emacs.
<StephanLahl> ryouma: ?
ERC>