Skip to content

Instantly share code, notes, and snippets.

Embed
What would you like to do?
Boycott Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

tl;dr: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet, and maybe never will. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better of not using Wayland at this point.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks only seem to care about Gnome, and alienating everyone else in the process. DO NOT INSTALL WAYLAND! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.
  • flathub/us.zoom.Zoom#22 Zoom broken since at least 4 Jan 2019. ("Can not start share, we only support wayland on GNOME with Ubuntu (17, 18), Fedora (25 to 29), Debian 9, openSUSE Leap 15, Arch Linux"). No word about non-GNOME!

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) broken since March 10, 2022

References

@phrxmd
Copy link

phrxmd commented May 22, 2022

Wayland breaks existing software. Sure, with additional work one can resurrect exsiting software or fork it or move to other software altogether, but that is besides my point.

That's a bit like saying GTK3 is not a GTK2 replacement and breaks GTK2 software, because the devs expect software maintainers to put in some work..

@phrxmd
Copy link

phrxmd commented May 22, 2022

The point? Red Hat money, Red Hat technologies, and to make everything work, more Red Hat technologies. Everything else (e.g., snap, AppImage, non-Linux like BSD)? Not cared about or discriminated against, depending on point of view.

I am using OBS as neither Snap, AppImage or Flatpak, but as a good old-fashioned RPM, and I'm happy with it having good Wayland support and couldn't care less about what else the developer is doing.

Look, I can see that as an AppImage developer you have an axe to grind against corporations that sponsor their competing format with money you don't have, but then let's not pretend that this is a technical discussion.

@bodqhrohro
Copy link

bodqhrohro commented May 22, 2022

@probonopd

and they must not need more Red Hat stuff

Wayland is already a Red Hat stuff, what's the matter?

@binex-dsk

if you're really that dumb to use 20 year old, likely obsolete applications...

Hey, what's dumb about that?

People still play console games which were developed even more decades ago, virtually all of them abandoned. Enterprise software, especially in embedded solutions, is also not changed without a financially argumented reason. Tell the banks they should not strive to hire some yet alive COBOL oldie and rewrite everything in Rust ASAP, lol.

Never once worked for me on any DE or WM, while on X.

I agree, always have to run xhost + before launching anything from root.

@phrxmd

GTK3 is not a GTK2 replacement and breaks GTK2 software

GTK+3 has broken the notion of executable theme modules, requiring the theme authors to be limited with possibilities of CSS (which is not even the full-fledged CSS like in the web, but their own dialect). But this happened in some minor version rather than from the very start of GTK+3, as well as some other shit.

@binex-dsk
Copy link

binex-dsk commented May 22, 2022

Hey, what's dumb about that?

Games are a much different case than GUI applications, as are COBOL and others. Qt 3 and 4 were deprecated so long ago that there are virtually no surviving applications that don't have a superior modern counterpart; and if there somehow are, we've always got XWayland.

@Monsterovich
Copy link

Monsterovich commented May 22, 2022

@binex-dsk

X11 broke X10 applications--what's your point here?

You are comparing completely different things. X11 had backward compatibility with X10 through a special additional transition library until the applications were completely ported to X11. This is similar to the compatibility between Qt4 and Qt5, although in this case the difference in functionality between the two versions is minimal so the library is not required. When it comes to Wayland, we're talking about a completely different paradigm. And things get complicated because of Wayland's monolithic design and the lack of features in the Wayland core protocol that were implemented in compositor instead.

There are still a lot of GTK2-based applications that have not yet been ported to GTK3. The point is that there was a major break in compatibility between the two versions. In fact they are even two different libraries. Therefore, there are many more applications left on GTK2 than on Qt4. Ah, yes. Wasn't it recently that GTK4 came out? Even within X this is a clusterfuck. Wayland doesn't improve the situation one bit.

XWayland exists

XWayland has limited capabilities, which does not guarantee 100% compatibility with X. XWayland is essentially a condom for Xorg, which seems to have been made out of sheer desperation when they realized that core Wayland implementation wouldn't work. I dunno.

if you're really that dumb to use 20 year old, likely obsolete applications...

I still have a printer manager installed that requires Qt4. It has not been updated for years and it's unlikely that it will ever be updated because it's a proprietary application. It's strange to hear that because even on Microsoft Windows old applications from 20 years ago still work. And I am against GNU/Linux losing in anything to the MS Windows.

Never once worked for me on any DE or WM, while on X.

Really? Some applications just can't work without root. For example gparted, nvidia configuration tool, and many other stock Xfce applications.

@sognokdev
Copy link

sognokdev commented May 22, 2022

@bodqhrohro

I stated many times up the thread that I have no problems with X11 which would motivate me to "improve" anything.

Then what do you expect, and from whom? You expect people who write Wayland compositors to stop? Or something else?

@Monsterovich
Copy link

Monsterovich commented May 22, 2022

Then what do you expect, and from whom? You expect people who write Wayland compositors to stop? Or something else?

They have already been asked to add the necessary features to the core Wayland implementation which were ignored in favor of their dictatorial beliefs.

It's really funny to read stuff like, "You don't get it, Wayland isn't the worthless sh*t, it just works differently!"

@sognokdev
Copy link

sognokdev commented May 22, 2022

@Monsterovich

They have already been asked to add the necessary features to the core Wayland implementation which were ignored in favor of their dictatorial beliefs.

So you don't want Wayland, what you want is a variant of Wayland with different principles. And you don't want to create it, you want it to be created by the people who work on Wayland.

Is that correct?

@binex-dsk
Copy link

binex-dsk commented May 23, 2022

For example gparted, nvidia configuration tool, and many other stock Xfce applications.

GParted never worked for me

X11 had backward compatibility with X10 through a special additional transition library until the applications were completely ported to X11

XWayland

I still have a printer manager installed that requires Qt4. It has not been updated for years and it's unlikely that it will ever be updated because it's a proprietary application

Then use XWayland, or better yet, use a better printer. If it doesn't work with CUPS, it's bad.

XWayland is essentially a condom for Xorg, which seems to have been made out of sheer desperation when they realized that core Wayland implementation wouldn't work. I dunno.

I fail to see the point here. Sounds like meaningless theories grounded in hatred for Wayland. Also, I've never had any problems with XWayland. Screen recording even works, as long as it was implemented properly in X in the first place.

It's strange to hear that because even on Microsoft Windows old applications from 20 years ago still work

...and in the process of trying to maintain backward compatibility, has created the worst, most bug-ridden, and least functional operating system ever.

Nobody forces you to use proprietary applications. Every proprietary application has a superior, open source alternative. That's the glory of FOSS and complaining about garbage proprietary software from 20 years ago doesn't seem to add on to this argument...

@Monsterovich
Copy link

Monsterovich commented May 23, 2022

So you don't want Wayland, what you want is a variant of Wayland with different principles.

I don't want any of that. I'm just saying that to be a complete replacement for X on the desktop, Wayland must be modular, pehraps in a unix-way, not monolithic in its design. I also see no severe reason to replace X right now.

And you don't want to create it, you want it to be created by the people who work on Wayland.

I don't expect that from them, the Wayland developers showed themselves to be incompetent a long time ago. But I certainly expect them to break the Linux graphical stack. A lot of people are concerned about this. That is why this thread exists.

@Monsterovich
Copy link

Monsterovich commented May 23, 2022

GParted never worked for me

It's nobody's fault but yours.

XWayland

You obviously don't understand the difference between different versions of the API and different implementations of the graphical server.

Then use XWayland, or better yet, use a better printer.

This is the most idiotic advice one can give. Very similar to, "don't use NVidia, NVdia is evil!!!" As if it was my fault.

If it doesn't work with CUPS, it's bad.

It's not about CUPS. Each printer has its own controller that triggers printer cleanup, prints a test sheet, shows ink levels, etc. These features are not in CUPS. They are mostly proprietary and handled by proprietary tools.

and in the process of trying to maintain backward compatibility, has created the worst, most bug-ridden, and least functional operating system ever.

Not as buggy as Android, where each phone manufacturer essentially has a different aka Wayland-style graphical stack that can have different behavior in the same applications. Hence, there are no universal screen recording apps for Android. And it has nothing to do with compatibility, because compatibility is also broken.

Nobody forces you to use proprietary applications. Every proprietary application has a superior, open source alternative.

Stallman, is that you?

@binex-dsk
Copy link

binex-dsk commented May 23, 2022

mostly proprietary

Then let's hope that one day we get the official FOSSPrinter sponsored by Stallman himself...

This is the most idiotic advice one can give. Very similar to, "don't use NVidia, NVdia is evil!!!" As if it was my fault.

It's nobody's fault but yours.

Interesting "contradiction"... though if you want an answer, there still is nobody stopping you from using a more FOSS-friendly vendor like AMD or Intel. Nobody's saying it's your fault, rather, I am saying that if the printer's configuration tool didn't work on Xwayland, then again, nobody's really stopping you from getting a better one.

Not as buggy as Android, where each phone manufacturer essentially has a different aka Wayland-style graphical stack that can have different behavior in the same applications. Hence, there are no universal screen recording apps for Android. And it has nothing to do with compatibility, because compatibility is also broken.

Interesting--however I'm gonna have to disagree with the "not as buggy as" part. Used GrapheneOS for a while and have experienced far less bugs than I did in a day of using Windows. Though this makes me wonder why the graphical stack ISN'T standardized across all. In the end they all are exactly identical, save a few quirks.

Stallman, is that you?

No i'm not fat

@sognokdev
Copy link

sognokdev commented May 23, 2022

I don't expect that from them, the Wayland developers showed themselves to be incompetent a long time ago. But I certainly expect them to break the Linux graphical stack. A lot of people are concerned about this. That is why this thread exists.

They're not forcing anybody to use their protocol and software. If they are incompetent, then there must be some competent people who can do better. In the end, the users will choose.

@X547
Copy link

X547 commented May 26, 2022

Wayland do not support absolute windows positioning and heavily sabotage any attempts to introduce common protocol for that. Literally all desktop GUI systems support absolute window positioning, including toy one man OS projects. ...except Wayland.

So claims like Wayland is protocol, extensions can be made do not apply. Wayland do not respect application developer and user freedom.

For me absolute windows positioning is mandatory feature of Desktop GUI system and I absolutely can't accept Wayland because it have no it. It do not matter how good Wayland supports hiDPI, multi-monitor, tear-free, color management etc. if core feature is missing.

@dm17
Copy link

dm17 commented May 26, 2022

Wayland do not support absolute windows positioning and heavily sabotage any attempts to introduce common protocol for that. Literally all desktop GUI systems support absolute window positioning, including toy one man OS projects. ...except Wayland.

So claims like Wayland is protocol, extensions can be made do not apply. Wayland do not respect application developer and user freedom.

For me absolute windows positioning is mandatory feature of Desktop GUI system and I absolutely can't accept Wayland because it have no it. It do not matter how good Wayland supports hiDPI, multi-monitor, tear-free, color management etc. if core feature is missing.

Seems undeniable, but can you provide some good references for the sabotage? I see it too, but it is hard to prove because perhaps they don't do it on purpose and are unconsciously being controlled by something - like naivete, delusion, or monetary incentive.

This thread so far is constructive, despite the gamma comments, nitpicking, and name calling. However, the anti-X11 side should realize that they're talking to people who perhaps see the current world differently from them and should be more accepting and tolerant. We see a world with rapidly consolidating companies and power structures. And we know from experience with full control and root-of-trust could do to a computer. We have a little handle on freedom in the open source community, but it is not that far away from software signing from a CPU that is locked down remotely by Google/Intel/Apple/etc which has "security controls" all of the way up through the OS, like in iOS and Android.

@X547
Copy link

X547 commented May 26, 2022

Seems undeniable, but can you provide some good references for the sabotage?

They even propose to make absolute positioning extension especially for Wine with authentication [!] so no programs except Wine can use it.

That way of thinking is similar to secure boot without option to disable or smartphones without root access because "you don't need that".

@bodqhrohro
Copy link

bodqhrohro commented May 26, 2022

@sognokdev

Then what do you expect, and from whom? You expect people who write Wayland compositors to stop? Or something else?

I demand just one thing: to stop promoting Wayland as a "modern" and "better" replacement for X11. If something is going to become a modern substitute for X11, it should be something at least trying to achieve a feature parity with it, not something intentionally limited. Until something like that emerges, X11 should be treated with respect and as a competitor to Wayland, not a predecessor. Wayland is no more of a replacement for it than even more limited SurfaceFlinger is.

@binex-dsk

has created the worst, most bug-ridden, and least functional operating system ever

And the most successful one, because the backward compatibility is what serious people™ really need. Same applies to Android.

Nobody forces you to use proprietary applications

Why do you make such assumptions? How about things like government IDs, digital signatures, COVID trackers and so on? Kids are basically deprived of rights because parents and school staff decide what software should they use, especially for communication stuff or practical tasks for a certain software. To the lesser extent it also applies to jobs (which can be hard to pick and change, depending on skills, abilities and location of a person): employers may require numerous software, like communication software (again), time trackers, IDEs and so. Good luck finding compatible open source alternatives for them. Or even write such alternatives which: 1) wouldn't break after just another server update; 2) wouldn't require lots of reverse-engineering which an open-source lover should invest lots of time and efforts into for free; 3) wouldn't get banned along with user accounts for violating the EULA which doesn't allow the development and use of alternative software (with possible lawsuits for the developer, depending on their jurisdiction).

No i'm not fat

So you wouldn't argue you have a long shaggy beard, right? ;)

@Monsterovich

Hence, there are no universal screen recording apps for Android

scrcpy captures the screen via ADB and works in a pretty portable way. VNC servers which require root permissions are also a thing (but require to be built for a specific version of system libraries though).

@X547

Literally all desktop GUI systems support absolute window positioning

Why do you conclude from the fact something exists that it should be like that?

The whole notion of a desktop has shifted. Connecting several displays to one GPU turned from a fantasy to a usual thing, and with some tinkering, standalone devices can be connected as external displays too (yup, even round smart watches). Laptop screens with rounded corners and webcam notches are already a thing too (and hey, CRTs had rounded corners too, and classic Mac OS respected this!) Good luck to apply a notion of absolute coordinates to this mess (if somethings strives to emulate such a notion, it doesn't mean that's possible in an adequate manner).

Oh, BTW, I should finally resurrect my old idea, possibly by hacking on the Weston test suite and then coming up with some extension draft. The only thing which stops me from that is that, regarding the aforementioned rise of notched laptops, someone would come up with this anyway, so I should instead focus on things only I can do.

That way of thinking is similar to secure boot without option to disable or smartphones without root access because "you don't need that".

The freedom behind the free software has never guaranteed anything but the legal freedom to fork and patch the unwanted things. That's why formally free monsters like Chromium and AOSP have emerged, after all, which barely can be fixed by community efforts because third-party patches are gatekept by Google and the vast majority of users follows the upstream only. And now gnome-shell is turning into one of such monsters, especially given the fact Red Hat puts significant money into its promotion, as noted by someone up the thread.

@X547
Copy link

X547 commented May 26, 2022

Good luck to apply a notion of absolute coordinates to this mess (if somethings strives to emulate such a notion, it doesn't mean that's possible in an adequate manner).

For example Windows simply use global coordinates of all screen rectangles combined. So if there are 2 screens and left one is 1024x768 then second screen left-top coordinate will likely be (1024, 0).

@sognokdev
Copy link

sognokdev commented May 27, 2022

@bodqhrohro

I demand just one thing: to stop promoting Wayland as a "modern" and "better" replacement for X11. If something is going to become a modern substitute for X11, it should be something at least trying to achieve a feature parity with it, not something intentionally limited.

Losing features is common when modernizing things.

Laptop used to have plenty of ports. For example, the Thinkpad T20, released in 2002, had: Serial, Parallel, VGA, USB, PS/2, Ethernet, RJ11, IBM docking port, CardBus, S-Video Out, Line-In/Line-Out/Microphone). Nowadays, you're lucky if you have 3 ports. But the laptops of today are also immensely more powerful than the Thinkpad T20 (Pentium III 750 MHz, 0.5 GB RAM), while having a much bigger battery life, and being much lighter.

CDs have a much higher longevity than USB flash drives. But USB flash drives are more convenient to use, and their capacity is much bigger.

Your cheap and compact Nokia 3310 phone had a 22 hour talk time. It's 16 hours for the Iphone 11. Yet, the iPhone is definitely more modern, much more.

I'm sure there are a billion examples of this phenomenon. Some features are lost or diminished, but there is a reason for that. It doesn't mean that the new thing is not more modern.

@uncomfyhalomacro
Copy link

uncomfyhalomacro commented May 27, 2022

I don't expect that from them, the Wayland developers showed themselves to be incompetent a long time ago. But I certainly expect them to break the Linux graphical stack. A lot of people are concerned about this. That is why this thread exists.

They're not forcing anybody to use their protocol and software. If they are incompetent, then there must be some competent people who can do better. In the end, the users will choose.

everyone is forgetting that Wayland is pushed and developed by the Xorg devs themselves 🤣. keep continuing guys. imma eat my popcorn 🍿

@Shinyzenith
Copy link

Shinyzenith commented May 27, 2022

I would just like to say that us wayland enthusiasts should not waste time on this gist and instead just work on making the sphere better. Trying to change the authors mind is a waste of our time :)

@Monsterovich
Copy link

Monsterovich commented May 27, 2022

everyone is forgetting that Wayland is pushed by the Xorg devs themselves rofl. keep continuing guys. imma eat my popcorn popcorn

The problem isn't so much with the developers as it is with the forced imposition of Wayland. The Wayland developers just created a new toy for themselves, and to hell with it. No one would ever care if they didn't try to force it on users. X users are persecuted, and X is humiliated in the eyes of people. On top of that we have Wayland fanboys who yell on forums about the awesomeness and security of Wayland, and about obsolete bloated X, without ever having seen the code or the protocol, and without any idea how it works. It turns out that the future of the GNU/Linux desktop is not decided by the community but by the Redhat managers, who have absolutely no knowledge about this topic.

Remember what happened with PulseAudio, which turned out to be a complete clusterfuck, even though the project was just a good idea with a bad implementation, and Wayland is a bad idea with a bad implementation.

@sognokdev
Copy link

sognokdev commented May 27, 2022

@uncomfyhalomacro

everyone is forgetting that Wayland is pushed and developed by the Xorg devs themselves

Wayland was created by Kristian Høgsberg, who was 12 years old when X11 was created. Being good at partly implementing somebody else's protocol doesn't mean that you're necessarily good at creating your own protocol.

Also, "the Xorg devs" are a lot of people, and I doubt they have one unique opinion on Wayland and X11.

I'm sure nobody forgot that Wayland is pushed by some Xorg developers. You should try to understand what you're reading, instead of representing yourself as someone who is superior, watching everybody from above with his popcorn and laughing at them. Which certainly indicates that you have more important issues to take care of than choosing the best display protocol.

@uncomfyhalomacro
Copy link

uncomfyhalomacro commented May 27, 2022

🍿

@uncomfyhalomacro

everyone is forgetting that Wayland is pushed and developed by the Xorg devs themselves

Wayland was created by Kristian Høgsberg, who was 12 years old when X11 was created. Being good at partly implementing somebody else's protocol doesn't mean that you're necessarily good at creating your own protocol.

Also, "the Xorg devs" are a lot of people, and I doubt they have one unique opinion on Wayland and X11.

I'm sure nobody forgot that Wayland is pushed by some Xorg developers. You should try to understand what you're reading, instead of representing yourself as someone who is superior, watching everybody from above with his popcorn and laughing at them. Which certainly indicates that you have more important issues to take care of than choosing the best display protocol.

@sognokdev
Copy link

sognokdev commented May 27, 2022

@phrxmd
Copy link

phrxmd commented May 27, 2022

Wayland do not support absolute windows positioning and heavily sabotage any attempts to introduce common protocol for that. Literally all desktop GUI systems support absolute window positioning, including toy one man OS projects. ...except Wayland.

So claims like Wayland is protocol, extensions can be made do not apply. Wayland do not respect application developer and user freedom.

For me absolute windows positioning is mandatory feature of Desktop GUI system and I absolutely can't accept Wayland because it have no it. It do not matter how good Wayland supports hiDPI, multi-monitor, tear-free, color management etc. if core feature is missing.

The argument against this is the following:

  • Desktop GUIs are only a subset of what graphical user interfaces are used for already today. For example, think about automotive implementations where you might have multiple displays of different sizes and shapes in different places of your car. An absolute global 2D Cartesian coordinate system doesn't help at all when your displays are circular or triangular and strewn around a lot of different places.
  • Even for desktop GUIs your underlying assumption seems to be that you can map your desktop to a set of rectangular 2D surfaces, to which you can assign absolute coordinate systems. However, this hasn't been entirely true even in the past (I disagree with @bodqhrohro on a lot of things, here I agree with him) and it's probably not true in the future. In the past, there were workarounds, like masking the round corners of your CRT or the notches of your phone. However, if you think about how long Unix or X11 have been around, and if you then look 30-40 years into the future, it's quite a big assumption that in 2030 or 2050 we will interact with computers exclusively through rectangular surfaces. Introducing global 2D coordinate systems today is likely to introduce serious limitations tomorrow. Imagine interacting with your computer through some kind of AR display where your windows/surfaces appear in different places in a 3D space - suddenly absolute positioning in a global 2D coordinate system becomes counterproductive.

So the idea is to look instead at what absolute coordinates are being used for - e.g. putting panels of a defined size on a defined screen edge and so on - and introduce protocols for those use cases. It's not a perfect approach - there are still issues with things like splash screens - and you can disagree with the idea, but there is a logic here and it's not just about imposing arbitrary limitations on the user.

@Mark-4158
Copy link

Mark-4158 commented May 27, 2022

@X547 When using LWQt QtWayland in combination with LWQt Mutter, QWindow::setPosition() works as expected (under Wayland).

@bodqhrohro
Copy link

bodqhrohro commented May 27, 2022

@X547

all screen rectangles combined

This is what I meant by

if somethings strives to emulate such a notion, it doesn't mean that's possible in an adequate manner

The big rectangle approach has obvious drawbacks like dead areas which don't belong to any display. Mixed DPIs make it even more insane.

Xinerama works the same way, now what?
@sognokdev

Laptop used to have plenty of ports

And that's why people who engage in hardware repairing tend to still use ancient laptops. For example, USB2COM adapters are unreliable, so a real COM port is needed for flashing sometimes.

But the laptops of today are also immensely more powerful

Not much actually, because the Moore's law stopped working for CPUs about two decades ago. The performance and a long battery life are contradicting things, so a major throttling is needed for the latter, and the promised 12 hours and more turn into 3–4 hours on non-typical tasks at best. And the reliability is sacrificed a lot for the sake of high speeds, especially in Intel-based laptops (which I don't use anyway though): for example, USB data lines instead of a southbridge now go directly into CPU, and in case of any short-circuiting burn the CPU itself; short-circuiting also became more probable due to the fragile nature of Type C if compared to Type A.

There is such thing as coproeconomics: it's more profitable to produce shitty stuff that dies early and is unrepairable, unless having to care about the quality due to legal regulations (here comes a stone thrown into the side of free market evangelists). So, as a rule of thumb, older is better, because the art of coproeconomics is mastered with time: surprisingly, it's easier to engineer a reliable device than a device which dies exactly after the warranty term expires.

But USB flash drives are more convenient to use, and their capacity is much bigger

I wouldn't call USB flash drives "convenient" if you need to attach one to a graduation work ;) They're just not flat enough (even those lacking a complete coating), unlike optical disks are. Though memory cards outperform both for this matter.

And also DVD+RWs are still cheaper than flash drives of the similar capacity in some regions.

Your cheap and compact Nokia 3310 phone had a 22 hour talk time. It's 16 hours for the Iphone 11. Yet, the iPhone is definitely more modern, much more.

Nokia G21 is newer and outperforms in talk time both, now what? :P

but there is a reason for that

Such reasons should not be supposed to be accepted by everyone.

It doesn't mean that the new thing is not more modern

I never tried to prove that Wayland is older than X11 lol.

Grow up.

Achtung, ageism in the thread!

@phrxmd

here I agree with him

him

insert some annoyed SJW mumbling here

some kind of AR display where your windows/surfaces appear in different places in a 3D space

That's going to be hell less usable than even capacitive touchscreens. (And still the mass market would swallow it again, at least temporarily, like 3D displays which came into oblivion after a few years of hype).

So the idea is to look instead at what absolute coordinates are being used for

Okay.

2022-05-27-151122_1366x768_scrot

Here are numeric boxes with coordinates, with a live stub over the screen. Tell me how to map this on the anchor model lol. Please no "screen recording should be a part of compositor" bullshit, and no "draw it on a preview".

@binex-dsk
Copy link

binex-dsk commented May 27, 2022

Personally I think we should abandon Xorg and Wayland and create the official Sneed Display Server.

@phrxmd
Copy link

phrxmd commented May 27, 2022

@phrxmd

here I agree with him

him

insert some annoyed SJW mumbling here

You regularly link to sites where you write under a male name using male forms (Russian makes this clear enough), so that seemed like a reasonably safe assumption, we don't need to turn this into a debate about your masculinity.

some kind of AR display where your windows/surfaces appear in different places in a 3D space

That's going to be hell less usable than even capacitive touchscreens. (And still the mass market would swallow it again, at least temporarily, like 3D displays which came into oblivion after a few years of hype).

Usability preferences are different. Yours are not something I care about. I regularly work in settings where AR is either in use already or is being considered as a serious enhancement. Sure, that's a niche context, but so was using more than one screen - which worked flawlessly on the Mac in the 1980s, and on Unix workstations that had their own ways of making it work with the global desktop model, and it was only 15 years or so until X11R6 caught up (somewhat) thanks to design decisions made in the 1980s.

So the idea is to look instead at what absolute coordinates are being used for

Okay. [...]

Here are numeric boxes with coordinates, with a live stub over the screen. Tell me how to map this on the anchor model lol. Please no "screen recording should be a part of compositor" bullshit, and no "draw it on a preview".

Honestly, who cares? The people who can't live without a live stub over the screen can go continue using X11. When I want to record a portion of the screen, I use OBS, select Screen Recording as the input source, enter the crop coordinates of the bounding box and I'm done.

Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment