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Created April 16, 2023 01:49
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Twtxt IRC Logs 2023-04-14
[2023-04-14 21:04:08] <westbam0> Hello, small question. Can you read this feed with twtxt??
[2023-04-14 21:05:44] <westbam0> with twtxt in command line, it shows me that
[2023-04-14 21:05:44] <westbam0> ➤ afp_fr (14 hours ago):
[2023-04-14 21:05:44] <westbam0> ****
[2023-04-14 21:19:14] <buckket> They are using a format the original client does not support to do multiline posts
[2023-04-14 21:46:24] <westbam0> buckket And not a way to put in place a treatment to make it compatible?
[2023-04-15 00:52:28] → lain` joined (uid504610@user/lain/x-9874679)
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[2023-04-15 02:13:11] ⇐ jaix quit (~jaix@user/jaix): Quit: Leaving
[2023-04-15 07:31:41] ⇐ Evil_Bob quit ( Quit: brb
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[2023-04-15 10:06:49] <jan6> not really
[2023-04-15 10:07:02] <jan6> twtxt was intended to be rather short, single-line posts
[2023-04-15 10:07:13] <jan6> there's no way to make multi-line markdown posts fit well
[2023-04-15 10:07:27] <jan6> you can, obviously, just strip out the magic characters
[2023-04-15 10:07:56] <jan6> it might be a bit hard to read though, especially for posts with images, or f*in markdown lists
[2023-04-15 10:09:07] <jan6> I don't hate yarn, I hate how yarn is advertising being twtxt, but is in effect like Chrome to the web, "whatever we say, is law, hey, the web/twtxt is open, just update your browser if you can't see the content!"
[2023-04-15 10:09:32] <jan6> there's only a small handful of clients that support all the magic yarn formats
[2023-04-15 10:10:37] <jan6> and iirc the fact that they use markdown, isn't even specced out, it's just a thing you will eventually find
[2023-04-15 14:23:02] <prologic> The only thing that needs to happen is a single line of code added to buckket's client
[2023-04-15 14:24:32] <prologic> It is well documented here:
[2023-04-15 14:26:09] <prologic> Before tendering yo the terminal `str.replace("\u2028", "\n")`
[2023-04-15 15:45:45] ⇐ lain` quit (uid504610@user/lain/x-9874679): Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
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[2023-04-15 22:20:25] ⇐ buckket quit (~buckket@2a01:4f8:c17:cc5f::1): Quit: buckket
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[2023-04-16 07:14:19] <Evil_Bob> link gives a 404
[2023-04-16 07:14:54] <Evil_Bob> works
[2023-04-16 07:44:16] <jan6> lol
[2023-04-16 07:44:35] <jan6> imagine not remembering how the links on your own website work
[2023-04-16 07:59:16] <prologic> Blah sorry bad copy/paste from phone 🤦‍♂️
[2023-04-16 08:13:36] <prologic> jan6 can you imagine using a phone with a vision impairment that makes using the phone basically impossible without the use of an aie like a Peak Lube that magnifies things to 15x?
[2023-04-16 08:14:16] <prologic> jan6 hopefully you can now appreciate why and how I can often have typos in my text and how little tiny mistakes like accidentally chopping off the .html might have happened.
[2023-04-16 08:14:25] <prologic> jan6 But sure, make fun of the blind guy 😢
[2023-04-16 08:15:18] <jan6> what's a Peak Lube
[2023-04-16 08:16:56] <jan6> I mean, typos are a fact of life, those are just fun to find, but like, if you select text, then modern android gives you even a little extra zoom bit to make it easier to see, and if you use "copy link", or go to the link and then "select all" from addressbar, there's no issues
[2023-04-16 08:17:23] <jan6> and I do not believe you write the entire link by hand, without typos, but failed at the end, lol
[2023-04-16 08:17:52] <jan6> and I can't imagine an iphone would be much worse at copying links either
[2023-04-16 08:18:35] <prologic> jan6 honestly dude, learn to have some empathy towards others.
[2023-04-16 08:18:44] <jan6> I do
[2023-04-16 08:18:56] <prologic> I made a mistake, get over it. no need to make fun of me
[2023-04-16 08:19:09] <prologic> Evil_Bob had the courtesy of correcting my mistake and providing the right URL 🙇‍♂️
[2023-04-16 08:19:13] <prologic> You restored to mockery
[2023-04-16 08:19:18] <prologic> Grow up
[2023-04-16 08:19:54] <jan6> I didn't restore to mockery, that's the wrong word
[2023-04-16 08:21:39] <jan6> and it was just a bit of poking, I mean, you've been able to copy links perfectly fine until now, and it wasn't personal anyway
[2023-04-16 08:21:57] <jan6> but I guess sorry, if you're this upset
[2023-04-16 08:22:57] <prologic> Mockery: noun
[2023-04-16 08:22:57] <prologic> teasing and contemptuous language or behaviour directed at a particular person or thing.
[2023-04-16 08:22:57] <prologic> "stung by her mockery, Frankie hung his head"
[2023-04-16 08:23:37] <prologic> jan6 apologies accepted, the amount of times you make fun of me, Yarn and other things I'm involved with is a bit frustrating.
[2023-04-16 08:24:36] <jan6> yarn I don't particularly make fun of
[2023-04-16 08:25:22] <jan6> just am rather annoyed how it's effectively the Chrome of twtxt, "just update your client with our extensions, or shut up, we're 90% of the market, so we make the rules now"
[2023-04-16 08:26:26] <jan6> whereas the entire point of extensions is that they EXTEND, any client with ZERO extensions SHOULD be perfectly usable
[2023-04-16 08:26:54] <prologic> Those extensions were made from observations of what was the dead-twtxt ecosystem and studying the many issues that exist/existed on buckket's repo. The extensions were written collaboratively with other twtxt users and client authors.
[2023-04-16 08:27:00] <prologic> So your position is completely bullshit and false.
[2023-04-16 08:27:49] <jan6> I mean, web standards were also written with other browser-makers collaboratively ;P
[2023-04-16 08:28:05] <jan6> I'm not saying there was no collaboration and that you singlehandedly forced decisions
[2023-04-16 08:28:15] <jan6> but it's just not "twtxt"
[2023-04-16 08:28:24] <jan6> like how matrix is not just http
[2023-04-16 08:28:36] <jan6> it's the old transport method, with it's own stuff on top
[2023-04-16 08:31:49] <jan6> again, I've got nothing in particular against you or yarn, just the way yarn is presented as twtxt, but there's no way to see required or suggested extensions for any feeds, the feeds are only partially compatible (markdown + multiline makes it REALLY bad for clients not supporting them), markdown usage is *STILL* not a documented extension, etc etc
[2023-04-16 08:33:27] <jan6> you just have to KNOW that because it's a yarn feed, you have to use some sort of markdown parser, just in case, and you have to split a single-line format into multiple lines "because we want multiline messages and we want it in twtxt specifically for some rason"
[2023-04-16 08:33:42] <jan6> *reason
[2023-04-16 08:34:16] <jan6> requiring markdown isn't horrible if it's actually specified, requiring multiline support isn't bad if it's specified
[2023-04-16 08:34:23] <jan6> but those are *OPTIONAL* extensions
[2023-04-16 08:34:31] <jan6> or rather, extension
[2023-04-16 08:34:36] <prologic> Well I'm sorry but standard can and do evolve. We ensured as much backwards compatibility as we could. Yarn very much uses Twtxt + extensions as well as other clients like Jenny, tt and others. -- Your purist point of view is counter productive. The adoption of the extensions and diversity of clients speaks for itself.
[2023-04-16 08:35:20] <jan6> yeah my point is, why insist it's twtxt, why not effectively fork twtxt, and just specify multiline as mandatory, and such
[2023-04-16 08:35:56] <jan6> it'd just be "yarn format, which is a superset of twtxt"
[2023-04-16 08:36:35] <jan6> (probably also mandating thread IDs for replies while at it, and such)
[2023-04-16 08:37:10] <prologic> What problem besides your purist viewpoint would forking and breaking the ecosystem solve? What happens to the rest of the Twtxt users?
[2023-04-16 08:37:19] <jan6> nothing
[2023-04-16 08:38:12] <prologic> Is that what happened with HTTP 1.0 -> HTTP/2 ?
[2023-04-16 08:38:17] <jan6> yes
[2023-04-16 08:38:23] <jan6> you can use HTTP 1.0 to this day
[2023-04-16 08:38:37] <jan6> or well, 1.1, not 1.0
[2023-04-16 08:38:54] <jan6> you do not need any sort of http/2 support whatsoever, if you don't want to
[2023-04-16 08:39:22] <buckket> I already told prologic that I’m not a fan of him using the name twtxt for a superset of incompatible ideas with the OG spec and client, but it is what it is…
[2023-04-16 08:40:32] <prologic> If I stop posting multi-line posts and stop using Markdown my feed will be pure Twtxt then: What changed?
[2023-04-16 08:40:33] <jan6> just rename to "twotxt" ? TWTXT Two, threaded boogaloo
[2023-04-16 08:41:18] <jan6> what changed is REQUIRING support for OPTIONAL extensions, that are wrangling a protocol into something it was never meant to be
[2023-04-16 08:42:35] <prologic> buckket: I've already done this when you asked for it (years ago) -- But then you stopped communicating with me so I assumed I had done all we could
[2023-04-16 08:43:08] <jan6> it's kinda like making a chat app on top of IRC, instead of making your own protocol, making custom workarounds for IRC's issues, instead of making a better protocol which addresses those issues properly
[2023-04-16 08:46:00] <jan6> yarn is cool, but I don't think that "twtxt" and "yarn" should really be confusable, when people think of "twtxt", they shouldn't think of "oh, I saw some cool posts on twtxt [read: some yarn pod], they posted nice photos about their vacation", because twtxt has no photos, twtxt has no markdown, no markup, no nothing
[2023-04-16 08:46:12] <jan6> yarn is a great twtxt client
[2023-04-16 08:46:17] <jan6> twtxt is an awful yarn client
[2023-04-16 08:48:17] <jan6> it's one-way compatibility
[2023-04-16 08:50:22] <jan6> ^ that is kind of the main problem, really
[2023-04-16 08:53:03] <jan6> it's cool that theoretically there's compatibility, but it'd probably be better off just making the "technically optional but you cannot view anything if you don't support them" extensions just mandatory, and perhaps indicating too, that it's a different dialect
[2023-04-16 08:54:41] <jan6> there's lots of different smalltalk and lisp variants, y'know, each of them adds features they deem important, but while they support certain language specs, generally, it doesn't mean their code works on any other implementation
[2023-04-16 08:55:04] <jan6> but they also don't advertise support as if it does
[2023-04-16 08:56:34] <jan6> it's perfectly fine to base your stuff on existing specs, but to then effectively require those extensions, while STILL claiming that it's an "optional" part, and that it's "backwards compatible" or something, isn't that nice
[2023-04-16 08:57:57] <jan6> XMPP has XEPs, which servers and clients negotiate, twtxt-extensions have zero way to really indicate their presence, or requirement, short of "just try if applying the rules does anything"
[2023-04-16 08:59:12] <jan6> if your XMPP client doesn't support required features, you will get an error, but if your twtxt client only implements twtxt, and not any extensions, you will have no idea wtf is going on, but no errors either, despite it being *ASSUMED* that your client supports some extensions
[2023-04-16 08:59:22] <jan6> and some non-specified conventions
[2023-04-16 09:01:03] <jan6> obviously twtxt is one-sided, static file, but you might still want a "twoxt", twtxt 2.0, which specifies in the file itself, what extensions the author deems required for the feed, and what ones are suggested
[2023-04-16 09:02:45] <jan6> having community specify their own extensions on top of a base standard, isn't bad in itself, but it's bad if you have zero ways to detect when any of them are used, and NOT supporting them gives you halfway unreadable results
[2023-04-16 09:04:22] <prologic> jan6: So what concrete solutions are you proposing here?
[2023-04-16 09:04:43] <jan6> 1) actual markdown spec, probably, lol
[2023-04-16 09:04:52] <jan6> we talked about it years ago
[2023-04-16 09:04:53] <prologic> Provide some actionable outcomes or contribute them yourself
[2023-04-16 09:05:17] <prologic> Can't do that one: no one can agree on how
[2023-04-16 09:05:19] <prologic> Next
[2023-04-16 09:05:28] <jan6> 2) a list of extensions the current file uses, and a list which are required (most of the time, only line breaks and MAYBE conversation ID should be required)
[2023-04-16 09:06:18] <prologic> Are you willing to spec that u?
[2023-04-16 09:06:56] <prologic> up^
[2023-04-16 09:06:56] <jan6> I mean, it can be as simple as a comment of #extensions: https://spec.two
[2023-04-16 09:07:10] <prologic> Aude !
[2023-04-16 09:07:17] <prologic> PleSe submit a PE for review
[2023-04-16 09:07:23] <prologic> PR^
[2023-04-16 09:07:31] <prologic> Sure^
[2023-04-16 09:07:37] <jan6> a PR to twtxt? >;P
[2023-04-16 09:07:54] <jan6> and WHY can no one agree on markdown
[2023-04-16 09:07:58] <prologic> Oh c'mon 🤦‍♂️
[2023-04-16 09:08:04] <jan6> yarn uses fancy formatting
[2023-04-16 09:08:10] <jan6> none of the extensions include that formatting
[2023-04-16 09:08:27] <jan6> therefore, it's not actually compatible even with the EXTENDED twtxt, as of now
[2023-04-16 09:08:50] <prologic> buckket: has made it quite clear that the original spec is "done"
[2023-04-16 09:09:39] <jan6> yes, so make a DIFFERENT spec, instead of "de-facto required, but formally optional addon extensions"
[2023-04-16 09:09:41] <prologic> Yarn actually imposes no such thing: You could write HTML for all I care
[2023-04-16 09:09:55] <prologic> No one can agree on how declaring content typed can or should work
[2023-04-16 09:10:03] <prologic> We've been over this a flees times
[2023-04-16 09:10:04] <jan6> will it render? no? then every human will care
[2023-04-16 09:10:13] <prologic> few^
[2023-04-16 09:11:26] <prologic> I think it would be frankly easier if we shut down the priest or switched to using JSON Feed
[2023-04-16 09:11:45] <prologic> At least Manton isn't this hostile 😉
[2023-04-16 09:12:34] <jan6> I'm just your friendly neighbourhood Devilus Advocatus Annoyingus
[2023-04-16 09:12:48] <prologic> At least the JSON Feed spec actually allows and even encourages extensions
[2023-04-16 09:13:24] <jan6> yeah, half the problem is that because twtxt was never meant to have extensions, there's NO WAY to check if ANY extensions are implemented
[2023-04-16 09:13:56] <jan6> you literally have to implement ALL of them, and just check "does this have any effect? no, does this one? yes, does this one?"
[2023-04-16 09:14:36] <jan6> well, implement all of the ones that you deem necessary, so more like half of them, not all, I suppose
[2023-04-16 09:15:38] <prologic>
[2023-04-16 09:15:58] <prologic> We documented which exams are required
[2023-04-16 09:16:12] <prologic> But I guess no/one reads docs anyway
[2023-04-16 09:16:12] <jan6> Q: Are any of these extensions required or mandatory?
[2023-04-16 09:16:13] <jan6> A: Absolutely not!
[2023-04-16 09:16:16] <jan6> that is kind of a lie, though
[2023-04-16 09:16:29] <jan6> multiline, for example, is pretty much mandatory
[2023-04-16 09:17:00] <jan6> if you do not support multiline AND don't support markdown, then posts with images and markdown lists will just be flat out unreadable
[2023-04-16 09:18:09] <prologic> Will you actually contribute improvements and fixes or just continue to play devil's advocate and argue for the sake of arguing?
[2023-04-16 09:18:29] <prologic> I'd not then I have to go and get ready for far more important tunings
[2023-04-16 09:18:46] <jan6> I have to sleep about now anyway
[2023-04-16 09:19:03] <prologic> Great okay
[2023-04-16 09:19:23] <jan6> I can attempt to try making the "currently used extensions" extension tomorrow, maybe, no promises
[2023-04-16 09:19:30] <jan6> if I rememer
[2023-04-16 09:19:55] <prologic> Well maybe you can think about how you can actually contribute I future instead of rallying against Yarn and our usage of Twtxt
[2023-04-16 09:20:08] <jan6> as I've been saying
[2023-04-16 09:20:10] <prologic> G'Night 🤗
[2023-04-16 09:20:14] <jan6> I'm not against yarn as a thing
[2023-04-16 09:20:14] <jan6> lol
[2023-04-16 09:20:42] <prologic> Prove it
[2023-04-16 09:20:50] <prologic> Put up some PRs
[2023-04-16 09:21:14] <prologic> Stop whinging and whining and do someyhing to help
[2023-04-16 09:22:20] <jan6> PRs: "forked twtxt spec into twoxt", "removed twtxt mention from main page", "made some extensions mandatory", "pushed a backdoor"
[2023-04-16 09:22:45] <jan6> lol, mostly joking about most of them
[2023-04-16 09:22:53] — jan6 zzz
[2023-04-16 09:24:19] <prologic> buckket: And you have no excuses either. I tried to address your concerns and requests years ago. Then you stopped communicating with me. If you still have issues how am I suppose to deal with them if you do not communicate what the problems are or make actionable suggestions for improvement?
[2023-04-16 09:25:27] <prologic> Every other person here that has had one issue or another has provided actionable feedback which has been actioned and acknowledged 🙇‍♂️
[2023-04-16 09:25:50] <prologic> Including Cameron yhay runs the gopher proxy
[2023-04-16 09:39:25] ⇐ epoch quit (~epoch@ Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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