gistfile1.txt

11:30 < txus> what does "cis" mean??
11:30 < jkleske> mortice: no, definitely not.
11:30 < medk> 10:37 piman_ ➤ if you are comfortable with your birth sex/gender assignment, you are cis.
11:30 < fwg_> now we need the bot
11:32 < piman_> Just, in general, I don't like comparisons of "well, X is more diverse than Y", because it always seems to ignore some axes.
11:32 < mortice> fair
11:33 < mortice> i also don't think it's relevant; saying "berlin is more diverse than X" doesn't mean we don't have to work to improve diversity
11:33 < fwg_> well it can only be said as a subjective perception
11:33 < gkarekinian> Most meetups in Berlin are just white males
11:34 < jkleske> full ack
11:34 < fwg_> well
11:34 < piman_> As a very specific example, I've seen women wearing headscarfs treated in ways that would be called out immediately as racism in the California tech culture.
11:34 < gkarekinian> The Ruby, JS, apps.js, up.front meetups are more diverse
11:34 < fwg_> "white" in europe also means 20 nationalities
11:34 -!- Irssi: Window number must be greater than 1
11:35 < medk> is txus white or latin-european?
11:35 < medk> piman_: is it something you've witnessed? where?
11:36 < piman_> medk: Even in Mitte, big "diverse" commercial areas like Potsdamer Platz or Alexanderplatz, I see people give them wide berth, nasty glances, constantly.
11:37 < medk> :(
11:37 < txus> how do you pronounce cis?
11:37 < piman_> medk: And I live in the east and it is terrible here. :(
11:37 < txus> also I'd like to read about the difference between sex and gender.
11:37 < medk> txus: siß
11:38 < txus> medk: thanks :)
11:38 < mortice> i'd agree that non-white immigrant communities are very othered in berlin
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11:38 < medk> in france, it's something we're about to teach at school. that's really greate i think
11:38 < medk> piman_: i don't know if east is worst when you see the CDU score in the west of the city
11:39 < fwg_> or in the whole of DE —_____—
11:39 < gkarekinian> Are they going to teach that everyone is welcome except for Roms?
11:39 < txus> medk: what's the difference between white and latin-european?
11:39 < txus> I feel very lost in this conversation.
11:39 < medk> txus: it was a joke :(
11:40 < piman_> txus: In most uses, "sex" is used to refer to whether you were assigned male or female at birth, usually by a doctor, and "gender" is used to describe how you view yourself and present
                yourself daily.
11:40 < txus> medk: lol ok I dunno anymore. in general I see that americans are much more aware/knowledgeable about race and ethnicity. they even know in which fraction they are each race, whatever that
              is.
11:40 < piman_> your gender may match your birth-assigned sex, or it may not, or it may vary.
11:41 < txus> piman_: I don't understand "how you view yourself and present yourself daily"
11:41 < piman_> similarly, you might disagree with the doctor about your birth-assigned sex, as doctors are often under pressure to assign sex prematurely, or incorrectly.
11:42 < txus> I never present myself as a man or a woman explicitly.
11:42 < txus> I mean no one really does
11:42 < mortice> txus: you mean you don't have to think about it
11:42 < txus> and I don't know what does it mean to view myself as a man or a woman
11:43 < mortice> txus: but if you identified as a woman while having been brought up as a man, I bet you'd understand
11:43 < jkleske> this might be a good starting point for reading more about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
11:43 < txus> jkleske: thanks
11:43 < txus> mortice: but then there's no way I could understand that is there?
11:44 < mortice> txus: sure there is
11:44 < piman_> well whether you can understand it or not is an open question, but you can learn about it, and respect it.
11:44 < mortice> txus: read stuff written by people who experience it, socialize with them, understand how their lives differ from yours
11:44 < mortice> i mean, depending on how you define 'understand'
11:45 < mortice> this is pretty good: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_and_sex
11:45 -!- Jessicatz [jessicatz@kai.vm.bytemark.co.uk] has joined #dercomputer
11:45 < txus> mortice: it's like being/not being daltonic I guess? as in one can only try to imagine how the other sees, but not really ever experience it?
11:46 < mortice> txus: i don't know, i feel like we're straying into philosophical territory where it's not relevant
11:46 < mortice> txus: it's not relevant to daltonism(?) whether or not you understand it
11:47 < piman_> mortice: daltonism is colorblindness.
11:47 < mortice> piman_: i know, '(?)' was for whether it was the right noun form
11:47 < txus> mortice: ok. I just wanted to stress that it's not an obvious reality, and that a special effort must be made to tell about it/understand it.
11:47 < piman_> ah, sorry.
11:47 < mortice> txus: yea, sure, but whether or not you have to make that effort is not the relevant matter
11:47 < mortice> txus: what's important is that people suffer with this
11:48 < txus> mortice: it is to tell trolls from non-trolls, just to say that I'm not trolling but I really want to understand this
11:48 < piman_> (people suffer with reactions to it, not from the thing itself)
11:48 < mortice> piman_: true, thanks for the correction
11:49 < piman_> txus: both sex and gender, while taken for granted by most people, are both actually very artificial and constructed.
11:49 < piman_> sex is constructed out of medical facts, while gender is constructed out of social facts.
11:50 < txus> piman_: I see. it makes sense.
11:50 < piman_> if what you say is you don't have to think about it, what that means is that your sex and gender presentation, which still exists, is not regularly questioned by others.
11:50 < txus> and is it still binary, albeit two-dimensional?
11:50 < txus> so male or female sex and male or female gender?
11:50 < piman_> no, it's not binary, and many people don't even see it as two dimensional.
11:50 < mortice> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_binary
11:51  * jkleske is really enjoying this channel
11:51 < piman_> it's better to think of it as two locuses, two places where the distribution has a high density.
11:51 < piman_> but you can fit in anywhere.
11:51 < txus> piman_: I see, that makes it especially difficult to understand for me.
11:51 < txus> the non-binary part
11:52 < mortice> txus:
11:52 < mortice> oops :)
11:54 < gkarekinian> You can see it as a spectrum I guess
11:54 < mortice> txus: do you accept that, given any two definitions of 'manly' and 'feminine', people can be more or less 'manly' or 'feminine' (whether that's physically, emotionally, or whatever)?
11:55 < txus> mortice: I usually see that someone "more feminine" is more feminine according to some cultural standards, same with more manly
11:58 < txus> I don't see what is more feminine or more masculine emotionally. I'd rather think that's a different dimension of things
11:58 < txus> as if someone is better with orientation or worse. I think that's regardless of anything else, just an independent trait.
11:59 < mortice> I don't know either, I don't buy into those labels. I'm trying to get you to say that however you define it, it's not a binary
11:59 < txus> mortice: okay, but I still can't think of a category where gender would be a spectrum. not physically, not emotionally, etc.
12:00 < mortice> txus: if people can be more or less of a thing, isn't that a spectrum?
12:00 < txus> so I can't tell more feminine from more masculine in a "pure" way, not involving any cultural references
12:00 < txus> so isnt't that gender spectrum also artificially constructed?
12:01 < mortice> so you're saying what's 'essential' is the binary, and the ability to describe people as more or less male/female is purely constructed?
12:02 < piman_> your apartment is also artificially constructed, but it's also still real.
12:02 < txus> piman_: and so are male/female binary conceptions
12:02 < txus> from your argument?
12:02 < mortice> i don't really understand what you're trying to say, txus :(
12:03 < txus> so, let me recap
12:03 < txus> sex == gender is not necessarily true, I buy that very easily. as in one is a physical trait and the other one is an identity trait
12:03 < piman_> sex is like your apartment. it a construct, it's artificial, our expectations and definitions shift, but it's made out of physical facts.
12:03 < piman_> gender is like... the grundgesetz. it's real, but it's made out of social facts.
12:04 < txus> but then, you told me: sex and gender are not binary. The fact that they're binary is artificially constructed, and the reality is more blurry, as in a spectrum.
12:04 < piman_> it changes, our expectations and definitions shift, but the fact it's not physical doesn't make it any less *real*.
12:04 < piman_> No, sex and gender themselves are artificially constructed.
12:04 < piman_> The binary is also constructed, but so are the ideas as a whole.
12:04 < txus> but I'm saying, that spectrum is no less artificially constructed. and if you can't possibly measure points in the spectrum, why don't we treat is as just binary?
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13:50 < ***> Buffer Playback...
13:50 < fwg_> [10:37:09] MOAR DIMENSIONS
13:50 < fwg_> [10:37:15] it's like string theory
13:50 < medk> [11:45:04] Selon l’Office statistique, pour 60 417 étrangers enregistrés dans l’arrondissement Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg en 2008, il n’y en aurait plus que 49 218 en 2012
13:52 < gkarekinian> :O
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14:18 < txus> I'm backk
14:19 < gkarekinian> Welcome back
14:21 < txus> so seems that the conversation faded but it was interesting
14:27 < mortice> sorry, i went away without saying why
14:27 < mortice> (adonis)
14:27 < mortice> i don't know why 'why don't we treat it as just binary' is more obvious than 'why don't we just not have a binary'
14:27 < mortice> because binary means you have to say where the dividing line is
14:27 < mortice> and my mate from ockham might have something to say about that
14:29 < txus> mortice: I'm just stress-testing this perspective.
14:30 < txus> I think the best thing would be talking to non-cisgendered individuals, who would probably find the right analogies easily as they are probably required to explain themselves all the time.
14:31 < piman_> I think this sounds awful.
14:31 < piman_> "Stress-testing this perspective" is the same as "devil's advocate trolling".
14:31 < piman_> And asking people to constantly explain themselves for your thought experiments is completely inconsiderate.
14:31 < txus> piman_: no, it's trying to hold the perspective in all the angles I can to figure it out. because I still don't
14:32 < txus> piman_: I'm interested in learning more about this, and I don't see why people who are aware of the complexity of the issue wouldn't want to make others aware of it.
14:32 < txus> if they wouldn't then I can't do anything about it
14:33 < txus> are you cis piman_?
14:33 < piman_> Yes.
14:33 < txus> and you never talked to any non-cis about this?
14:33 < mortice> txus: have you read the geek feminism entries on sex and gender and gender binary?
14:33 < piman_> I don't have to be trans to be upset at the way you're turning trans people into tools for your thought experiments.
14:34 < txus> mortice: not yet.
14:34 < txus> piman_: if learning is a thought experiment to you then you don't understand the value of discussion and bringing knowledge and new points of view to other people
14:34 < mortice> txus: seems like it'd be more efficient
14:34 < piman_> I am not interested in "stress-testing" people's lived experiences.
14:34 < txus> piman_: maybe my choice of words was rather poor.
14:35 < piman_> No, I don't understand the value of bringing in the point of view that maybe people are wrong about their own gender. There's no value in it.
14:35 < txus> I'm going to play the non-native speaker card to excuse me for that.
14:35 < piman_> If you tell me there's value in it, I tell you you're a bigot.
14:36 < txus> piman_: you misunderstood me. I was talking about transgendered people bringing *me* their point of view about sex and gender, as they have thought about the issue more than I have and
              probably know a great deal more about it than I do.
14:36 < txus> piman_: and thanks for insulting me.
14:36 < mortice> txus: i put it to you that they have, it's called "things on the internet that you've been linked to", and that you should read them (at a minimum)
14:37 < Jessicatz> hello I am trans AMA
14:37 < piman_> I'm not insulting you, I'm stress-testing your perspective on bigotry.
14:37 < txus> mortice: I will, I already bookmarked them really.
14:37 < txus> piman_: it's sad that trolls like you are tolerated in these discussions.
14:37 < mortice> txus: why is it better to upset people by questioning them about this than to spend the *same time* reading the articles so you don't have to?
14:38 < mortice> txus: that was entirely unfair. piman_ has been very patiently educating you about this for a number of hours
14:38 < txus> mortice: it's not better, it's another way to learn and I'm sorry if it sounds awful to you or other peopple.
14:39 < mortice> txus: did you miss the part where people indicated that they were upset with your choice of way to learn?
14:39 < txus> mortice: only piman_ pointed out so. and I lost the benefit-of-doubt respect I had for him/her anyway.
14:39 < fwg> txus: be careful to avoid being a 'help vampire', constantly asking for explanation and never trying to understand/think yourself through it
14:39 < mortice> so it's ok to upset people because you don't respect for them?
14:40 < mortice> *don't respect them
14:40 < txus> mortice: no, I lost respect after he insulted me, which happened after I upset him/her.
14:40 < txus> fwg: I think if we can't talk openly about things, we're pretty much fucked.
14:40 < mortice> txus: your line of argument/questioning/learning/whatever you want to call it is also upsetting me
14:41 < fwg> txus: realizing some of your world views/opinions are bigoted can be crass, but is necessary for progress
14:41 < txus> mortice: I've observed this topic is highly, *highly* sensitive.
14:41 < mortice> you are possessed of above-average reasoning abilities, near-limitless available learning resources, and some pointers on where to start
14:42 < mortice> therefore please, please take our advice and learn in a way that's less upsetting
14:42 < fwg> txus: I agree that people should be able to speak their mind, just don't assume other's opinions and perceptions about you are entirely unappropriate
14:43 < txus> mortice: if trying to learn about new perspectives on sex and gender with nothing but good faith earns me no less than two people calling me a bigot
14:43 < txus> that's a sad thing
14:43 < txus> and I don't feel welcomed
14:44 < mortice> txus: you're not allowing for the possibility that your behaviour is making other people feel unwelcome. People don't tend to get upset for no reason.
14:44 < fwg> e.g. if piman_ thinks you're a bigot, there is really no value in saying "but I'm not". there is value in trying to understand /why/ he/she thinks that
14:44 < piman_> (he)
14:44 < fwg> (thx :)
14:44 < mortice> txus: if you had good faith, you would have noticed more than one indication that you were upsetting (minimally) piman_, and perhaps tried to learn in a less upsetting way
14:44 < piman_> Jessicatz has also said she's trans, and that you can ask her anything...
14:44 < piman_> And you haven't asked her anything.
14:45 < piman_> Which further clouds my feelings on how good faith you are.
14:45 < mortice> txus: even if you think it's irrational or uncool that people get upset by you, the onus is on you not to upset them
14:45 < Jessicatz> (if you read carefully, calling txus bigoted hinged on a condition)
14:45 < fwg> post-modernism is a bitch
14:45 < txus> mortice: you've used the word upsetting a number of times and yet you don't mention that it's weird to call me a bigot when you know me and you know that I'm not.
14:46 < piman_> I find it very unlikely you don't harbor bigoted opinions. Almost everyone does.
14:46 < piman_> So, just repeating "I don't", doesn't do anything to help you.
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14:46 < txus> piman_: I'm just defending myself from a gratuitous insult.
14:46 < mortice> txus: i'm a racist and a sexist and transphobic, and those things upset me too
14:46 < piman_> No, you're just privilege-blind.
14:46 < piman_> (txus)
14:46 < txus> piman_: oh, the privilege card.
14:47 < txus> I was expecting that
14:47 < piman_> Who is moderating this channel? :(
14:47 < mortice> txus: ok, at this point, i need to ask you to stop participating
14:47 < piman_> At least, I want zero tolerance for someone who says "oh, the privilege card".
14:47 < piman_> If that's not the case I will leave.
14:47 < mortice> txus: whatever your intentions, you don't share the values of the channel
14:47 < txus> piman_: I want zero tolerance for a person who insults gratuituously.
14:47 < mortice> piman_: gimme a sec, applying said 0-tolerance
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14:48 < txus> mortice: and insulting people is a value of the channel?
14:48 < Jessicatz> :(
14:48 < piman_> mortice: thank you, it is very much appreciated.
14:49 < mortice> txus: i'm going to kb you for a day, i suggest using the time to research why i would do that, given what you've said
14:49 < txus> I think this is really unfair.
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14:50 <@mortice> sorry for the delay, i wasn't identified with nickserv -.-
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