Trinity Desktop Meeting 01 Feb 2012

Meeting Log

17:00:34 <Xu_R|School> #startmeeting Trinity Developer Meeting, 01 February 2012, 12 PM EST
17:00:34 <[lindaemon]> Meeting started Wed Feb  1 17:00:34 2012 UTC.  The chair is Xu_R|School. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:34 <[lindaemon]> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:01:09 <Z_God> the first three point are pretty much for kb9vqf-offsite ;)
17:01:14 <Xu_R|School> we haven't had a meeting in a while :| time to get caught up! (especially me >_>")
17:01:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> ah, ok
17:01:45 <Xu_R|School> #chair MutantTurkey kb9vqf-offsite
17:01:45 <[lindaemon]> Current chairs: MutantTurkey Xu_R|School kb9vqf-offsite
17:01:46 <MutantTurkey> back
17:01:59 <kb9vqf-offsite> GIT migration is complete as of 1/1/2012
17:02:05 <kb9vqf-offsite> http://git.trinitydesktop.org/
17:02:14 <Xu_R|School> #topic GIT + changes
17:02:37 <Xu_R|School> #info GIT migration is complete, available at git.trinitydesktop.org.
17:02:43 <kb9vqf-offsite> documentation link at that site
17:03:03 <Xu_R|School> #info documentation also at git.trinitydesktop
17:03:04 <MutantTurkey> #link http://git.trinitydesktop.org/cgit/
17:03:20 <kb9vqf-offsite> GIT has a few shortcomings, so everyone should look at the docs page on the TDE GIT site
17:03:26 <kb9vqf-offsite> as we have custom workarounds
17:03:29 <Xu_R|School> Especially the submodules
17:03:33 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
17:03:38 <MutantTurkey> submodules are making me bang my head on the wall.
17:03:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> just use the scripts
17:03:58 <Xu_R|School> MutantTurkey: well, what else can we do. XD
17:04:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> :)
17:04:08 <Xu_R|School> I wish cgit would automatically generate tarballs with submodules, though.
17:04:15 <kb9vqf-offsite> yeah, I know
17:04:21 <Xu_R|School> *goes to look up a bugtracker for cgit*
17:04:28 <MutantTurkey> #idea use two git branches, a stable branch and a development branch to help keep development sane
17:04:43 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: what do you think of that idea
17:04:49 <MutantTurkey> I was discussing this with Z_God yesterday
17:04:54 <kb9vqf-offsite> I think development is complicated enough as it is...
17:05:00 <MutantTurkey> ok
17:05:00 <Xu_R|School> let's not >_>
17:05:09 <kb9vqf-offsite> I did tag 3.5.13 though
17:05:10 <Xu_R|School> we can just tag releases and go along as is.
17:05:14 <Z_God> I'd like to see that if someone will volunteer to do backports
17:05:19 <Z_God> for bugfixes
17:05:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> I did get Slavek Banko on Debian
17:05:30 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: he is maintaining it now?
17:05:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> but he hasn't done anything with Ubuntu
17:05:38 <kb9vqf-offsite> he is backporting patches
17:05:40 <kb9vqf-offsite> hang on
17:05:47 <kb9vqf-offsite> https://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/~slavek-banko/+archive/axis/+packages?start=0&batch=300
17:05:48 <Z_God> so maybe he could maintain a stable branch
17:05:49 <MutantTurkey> well everyone knows ubuntu is a crapshoot
17:06:20 <Xu_R|School> well, we still have to support it >_>
17:06:28 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, right now I am envisioning the main 3.5.13 PPAs and his updates PPA
17:06:40 <kb9vqf-offsite> I don't have time to recompile things for Ubuntu personally ;-)
17:06:55 <kb9vqf-offsite> too busy working on getting the bugs fixed
17:07:04 <MutantTurkey> we need to keep you focused on development heh
17:07:08 <kb9vqf-offsite> yep :)
17:07:12 <Xu_R|School> ;P
17:07:24 <Xu_R|School> I should load up my email - what other topics?
17:07:28 <kb9vqf-offsite> http://trinitydesktop.org/patches is a good place to look to see what has been happening recently to the codebase BTW
17:07:53 <MutantTurkey> is there anyway to see a sane list of changes though git?
17:07:56 <Xu_R|School> kb9vqf-offsite: that link is really a helpful tool :D
17:08:05 <kb9vqf-offsite> MutantTurkey: no
17:08:08 <kb9vqf-offsite> see link above :
17:08:11 <MutantTurkey> yep
17:08:37 <kb9vqf-offsite> just be aware it is delayed by 1-24 hours
17:08:56 <kb9vqf-offsite> it takes a lot of horsepower to generate a list like that from GIT
17:08:59 <Xu_R|School> delays don't matter too much :P
17:09:26 <kb9vqf-offsite> Any other GIT discussion?
17:09:41 <Xu_R|School> probably not.
17:09:47 <MutantTurkey> well one question
17:09:49 <Xu_R|School> if people want GIT credentials, they should ask you, right?
17:09:52 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
17:09:56 <MutantTurkey> yeah.
17:09:56 <Xu_R|School> kk. just making sure.
17:10:09 <Z_God> and patches should be sent to the devel list?
17:10:09 <MutantTurkey> another one, when will nightly builds be back in full swing?
17:10:13 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: bug tracker
17:10:17 <MutantTurkey> open a bug, submit a patch
17:10:23 <MutantTurkey> mark "PATCHAVAIL"
17:10:24 <kb9vqf-offsite> Bug tracker is the best place for patches
17:10:26 <Z_God> ok
17:10:28 <MutantTurkey> we should document that
17:10:31 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
17:10:37 <MutantTurkey> #action how to submit a bug and patch
17:10:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> MutantTurkey: Nightly builds will be in full swing when some more bugs are closed out ;-)
17:10:55 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: hey I think we closed a LOT of bugs already
17:11:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> Otherwise it's a waste of electrical power
17:11:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes we did
17:11:25 <Xu_R|School> very well, let's move on
17:11:33 <Xu_R|School> hmm
17:11:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> Let's close out some more blocker bugs in the next few weeks, then I'll fire up the nightly builds again
17:11:52 <Xu_R|School> #agreed more bugs should be closed before nightly builds start again
17:12:11 <Xu_R|School> I think there was discussion on tdebindings and some other modules? *checks email archive*
17:12:11 <MutantTurkey> #action focus on blocker and major bugs
17:12:19 <kb9vqf-offsite> tdebindings is a mess
17:12:25 <kb9vqf-offsite> be glad it compiles at all
17:12:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> :-P
17:12:34 <Z_God> kb9vqf-offsite: what's the problem with it?
17:12:42 <Xu_R|School> #topic Building Trinity
17:13:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> archaic build system, poorly written code, autogenerated code that hasn'nt been autogenerated in years, etc.
17:13:23 <Z_God> I have some more code ported from gtk-signals to gsignals
17:13:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> cool
17:13:31 <MutantTurkey> should we move onto the topic of cmake then? :p
17:13:41 <Z_God> but other than that not much functionality yet
17:13:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> well, tdebindings probably won't get TLC for a long time
17:13:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> I have dome what I can to prop it up
17:13:53 <MutantTurkey> what is the purpose of tdebindings... I still am at a loss
17:13:58 <MutantTurkey> not the purpose, the usefulness of it.
17:14:16 <kb9vqf-offsite> It primarily allows devs to write native TDE programs in python/java/perl
17:14:18 <Xu_R|School> MutantTurkey: programs that are written in other languages but use tde looks?
17:14:19 <Z_God> MutantTurkey: all non-C++ programs use it
17:14:22 <MutantTurkey> it's like having a extra car that noone drives...
17:14:35 <MutantTurkey> my question is, "who is actually using this?"
17:14:42 <kb9vqf-offsite> A handful of packages only
17:14:51 <Xu_R|School> doesn't amarok use it?
17:14:54 <kb9vqf-offsite> It can
17:14:57 <kb9vqf-offsite> for ruby
17:14:59 <Xu_R|School> oic
17:15:00 * Strangelv probably should learn how to use it
17:15:01 <MutantTurkey> ruby ruby ruby yeah
17:15:14 <kb9vqf-offsite> ruby did nasty things in 1.9 though
17:15:17 <MutantTurkey> I am wondering if it is worth the upkeep.
17:15:26 <kb9vqf-offsite> the c bindings are shot to pieces
17:15:41 <Z_God> they don't work anymore?
17:15:46 <kb9vqf-offsite> AFAIK no
17:15:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> critical methods were removed
17:15:56 <kb9vqf-offsite> and this  should sound familiar....
17:15:59 <Z_God> I thought I fixed the biggest issues with dcop at least...
17:16:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> "to make it easier to maintain"
17:16:10 <kb9vqf-offsite> Z_God: good!
17:16:16 <Z_God> you checked that in ;)
17:16:24 <kb9vqf-offsite> probably did
17:16:31 <MutantTurkey> c bindings for qt and kde were dropped a long time ago
17:16:32 <kb9vqf-offsite> there have been a lot of good patches on the tracker
17:16:40 <kb9vqf-offsite> MutantTurkey: No, I mean in Ruby
17:16:46 <MutantTurkey> yes
17:16:47 <kb9vqf-offsite> Ruby had C bindings
17:16:52 <MutantTurkey> oh ok
17:17:05 * kb9vqf-offsite emphasizes *had*
17:17:16 <MutantTurkey> kdebase and kdelibs also had C bindings
17:17:22 <MutantTurkey> and QtC bindings also exists
17:17:28 <MutantTurkey> this is all circa 2006~ era
17:17:30 <Xu_R|School> but how old are those now?
17:17:32 <Xu_R|School> yeaa...
17:17:34 <MutantTurkey> release of 3.5.2 was the last release of it.
17:17:38 <Z_God> ah, ok, I though it was about the trinity c bindings
17:17:39 <kb9vqf-offsite> pretty old
17:17:41 <kb9vqf-offsite> nope
17:17:45 <MutantTurkey> but I wonder how difficult it owuld be to ressurect
17:17:49 <MutantTurkey> they were all autogenerated anyhow
17:17:53 <kb9vqf-offsite> why though :-/
17:17:57 <MutantTurkey> i like C :p
17:17:59 <Xu_R|School> MutantTurkey: I'd avoid the breakage and not touch them :|
17:18:09 <Strangelv> easier to replace with a clean shet implementation?
17:18:28 <MutantTurkey> aren't almost all of our bindings generated with some perl magic?
17:18:29 <Xu_R|School> Strangelv: That's debatable.
17:18:42 <kb9vqf-offsite> So back on topic, all modules and apps should build at this point (or very soon) on either qt3 or tqt3, with the notable exception of tdebindings
17:18:44 <Xu_R|School> MutantTurkey: that reminds me of SWIG. XD
17:19:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> I am slowly running a rebuild test of everything
17:19:11 <Xu_R|School> #info all modules + apps should build with Qt3/TQt3, *except* tdebindings
17:19:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> tdebindings compiles on TQt3 ONLY
17:19:24 <MutantTurkey> #action create a simple explaination on the wiki of tqtinterface, tqt3, and what the difference is
17:19:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> hehe
17:19:36 <MutantTurkey> people are rather confused I think
17:19:38 <kb9vqf-offsite> tqtinterface is the compatibility layer
17:19:48 <MutantTurkey> i know that :-p we just need to document it
17:19:56 <kb9vqf-offsite> it is what allowed me to port all of the TDE code off of Qt3 and still make releases ;-)
17:20:13 <kb9vqf-offsite> TQt3 is another "backend" for tqtinterface, with native TQ* objects
17:20:26 <Xu_R|School> kb9vqf-offsite: it's autogenerated from Qt3, right?
17:20:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> Yes
17:20:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> The goal is to allow TQt3 and Qt4 to compile in the same program
17:20:45 <kb9vqf-offsite> and we're pretty close
17:20:48 <MutantTurkey> cool
17:20:51 <MutantTurkey> R15 era?
17:20:57 <kb9vqf-offsite> no, sooner than that
17:21:01 <Xu_R|School> :o
17:21:11 <kb9vqf-offsite> tqtinterface is fairly powerful
17:21:17 <MutantTurkey> yet, Qt3 will continue to exist for all qt3 based applications
17:21:19 <MutantTurkey> ?
17:21:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
17:21:26 <kb9vqf-offsite> all improvements are made to qt3
17:21:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> and tqt3 is generated from it
17:21:43 <MutantTurkey> ok
17:21:48 <MutantTurkey> doucmentation documentation....
17:21:53 <Xu_R|School> speaking of releases... what steps should we take heading to R14? We don't want a panic release like 3.5.13 was :x
17:21:58 <kb9vqf-offsite> think of tqt3 as a Qt4-friendly flavor of qt3
17:22:04 * Xu_R|School will change the topic in a moment if nobody objects
17:22:26 <kb9vqf-offsite> go ahead
17:22:33 <Xu_R|School> #topic R14 Preparation
17:22:33 <MutantTurkey> Xu_R|School: we have a roadmap.
17:22:48 <kb9vqf-offsite> bugs, bugs, bugs, bugs
17:22:58 <MutantTurkey> #info bugs bugs bugs
17:23:00 <MutantTurkey> :p
17:23:05 <kb9vqf-offsite> all the patches were very helpful, but we only made a dent in the tracker
17:23:09 <Xu_R|School> even with a roadmap, it's good to make sure that we all know what we're doing :|
17:23:15 <MutantTurkey> let me pull my stats out:
17:23:26 <kb9vqf-offsite> http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/report.cgi?z_axis_field=bug_severity&format=pie&x_axis_field=bug_status&query_format=report-graph&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=TDE+3.5&component=arts&component=debian&component=fedora&component=kdeaccessibility&component=kdeaddons&component=kdeadmin&component=kdeartwork&component=kdebase&component=kdeedu&component=kdegames&component=kdegraphics&component=kd
17:23:29 <MutantTurkey> that
17:23:31 <kb9vqf-offsite> drat, cut off
17:23:33 <kb9vqf-offsite> hang on
17:23:47 <Z_God> where are most of these bugs coming from?
17:23:51 <MutantTurkey> we have 294 bugs that are critical and open (aka not enhancement or otherwise)
17:23:53 * Xu_R|School would like to note that that link will show up on the meeting minutes XD
17:23:55 <Z_God> are they regressions or old bugs?
17:23:57 <kb9vqf-offsite> bitly isn't working
17:24:13 <kb9vqf-offsite> http://goo.gl/ERjuQ
17:24:20 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: i'll just speak it out, i have the stats up on deskzilla
17:24:48 <Xu_R|School> hm. :|
17:24:52 <MutantTurkey> there are 419 total open bugs, 294 of which are real bugs not enhancement requests.
17:24:59 <kb9vqf-offsite> some of those "Enhancement" bugs need to be bumped to higher priority
17:25:00 <MutantTurkey> there are 28 bugs marked as PATCHAVAIL
17:25:14 <kb9vqf-offsite> ...which I will merge as I can verify their full impact
17:25:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> 'as soon as'
17:26:06 <kb9vqf-offsite> I have fixes for some in the works here, but only for a handful at best
17:26:11 <kb9vqf-offsite> I need help :))
17:26:45 <kb9vqf-offsite> I am going after the nasty hard-to-solve bugs, but plenty of simpler bugs remain for others
17:26:55 <Z_God> but are these regressions due to newer libs or just really old bugs?
17:26:58 <kb9vqf-offsite> old bugs
17:27:03 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: mostly old
17:27:07 <MutantTurkey> ones present in 3.5.10
17:27:10 <Z_God> old bugs shouldn't have to block another release
17:27:11 <kb9vqf-offsite> KDE 3.5.10 was rushed out and the KDE devs washed their hands of it
17:27:22 <Xu_R|School> I hope there are no regressions due to newer libs. that would be... interesting, to say the least.
17:27:23 <Z_God> regressions should though
17:27:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> the whole point of this release is to fix bugs
17:27:50 <MutantTurkey> that kdesktop_lock bug is killing me
17:27:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> shipping yet another buggy release, regardless of the age of the bugs, is rather pointless
17:28:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> I am working on 810
17:28:04 <kb9vqf-offsite> Bug 810 that is
17:28:06 <Z_God> but a release is never buggy when it's better than the previous one
17:28:23 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: what do you think about a bug day?
17:28:23 <kb9vqf-offsite> OK, here's the problem
17:28:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, good idea
17:28:41 <kb9vqf-offsite> Say I ship R14 with known bugs, 400 of them
17:28:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> Then the main focus for R15 is going to be...bug fixing (again)
17:28:58 <kb9vqf-offsite> then we ship R15 with 300 bugs
17:29:03 <kb9vqf-offsite> R16 is going to be MORE bug fixing
17:29:13 <kb9vqf-offsite> new features will never get added and the desktop will stagnate
17:29:20 <MutantTurkey> right, we need a stable release to build up on
17:29:23 <Z_God> the main difference would be that we have more releases I think
17:29:32 <Z_God> and faster releases
17:29:37 <kb9vqf-offsite> right, and each release costs me time and money
17:29:47 <MutantTurkey> a lot of time and a lot of money
17:29:50 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
17:29:54 <MutantTurkey> exactly
17:29:55 <Z_God> ok, then it makes sense to wait with releases yep
17:29:57 * MutantTurkey gets out his wallet
17:29:59 <MutantTurkey> lol
17:30:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> hehe
17:30:12 <kb9vqf-offsite> this is normal software development BTW
17:30:12 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: are we still looking for more mirrors?
17:30:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> We are good for now, but if someone offers a new mirror I won't refuse :)
17:30:38 <MutantTurkey> ok
17:30:43 <MutantTurkey> did you contact ibiblio?
17:30:47 <kb9vqf-offsite> It costs Microsoft $$$ for each release
17:30:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> same with Ubuntu, etc.
17:31:08 <kb9vqf-offsite> MutantTurkey: yes, they are not accepting new files of any kind right now
17:31:19 <MutantTurkey> ok
17:31:19 <kb9vqf-offsite> they mentioned that they are paring back their offerings
17:31:21 <Xu_R|School> kb9vqf-offsite: try ftp.heanet.ie?
17:31:29 <MutantTurkey> berlios maybe too...
17:31:43 <Xu_R|School> berlios might not tbh - now that they don't have government backing...
17:31:57 <kb9vqf-offsite> I think most of the major mirrors are paring back right now
17:32:05 <kb9vqf-offsite> these are touch economic times
17:32:08 <kb9vqf-offsite> *tough
17:32:14 <MutantTurkey> right
17:32:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> and 130GB of data is hard for anyone to swallow
17:32:33 <Xu_R|School> argh. I have to head out now. MutantTurkey, can you take over for me?
17:32:41 <MutantTurkey> Xu_R|School: whut. sure
17:32:48 <MutantTurkey> am I op?
17:32:50 <Xu_R|School> yup
17:32:52 <Xu_R|School> #chair MutantTurkey
17:32:52 <[lindaemon]> Current chairs: MutantTurkey Xu_R|School kb9vqf-offsite
17:32:55 <Xu_R|School> yea, should be.
17:32:57 <Xu_R|School> yup.
17:32:58 <MutantTurkey> okay
17:33:03 <Xu_R|School> ty (sorry for having to leave early)
17:33:08 <MutantTurkey> yes sir
17:33:27 <MutantTurkey> okay well we sort of are straying a bit. lets get back on topic
17:34:17 <MutantTurkey> #topic CMake Conversion
17:34:42 <MutantTurkey> what are our visions for this? continued conversions of main stuff?
17:34:50 <MutantTurkey> #idea put together a guide on converting to cmake
17:35:03 <MutantTurkey> #idea create a strict specification on how we want this done
17:35:18 <MutantTurkey> #action convert a few before R15
17:35:25 <kb9vqf-offsite> other members of the team are going to have to handle this
17:35:38 <kb9vqf-offsite> I haven't seen much of Serghei recently
17:35:39 <MutantTurkey> on that note, has anyone seen samelian in a while?
17:35:41 <MutantTurkey> ...hehe
17:35:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> he's probably busy
17:36:06 <MutantTurkey> last I touched base with him he was very busy
17:36:24 <kb9vqf-offsite> I think we need to produce a stable release with good integration with other software
17:36:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> then we may attract more users/devs
17:36:48 <kb9vqf-offsite> At the moment we seem to be hovering around 3000 users of the binary packages alone
17:36:48 <MutantTurkey> good integration being gtk etc?
17:36:59 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: do we have any good statistics on that?
17:37:07 <MutantTurkey> or is it guess and check?
17:37:23 <kb9vqf-offsite> those numbers are based on unique hits to the PPAs in January 2012
17:37:33 <MutantTurkey> ok
17:37:49 <kb9vqf-offsite> The site traffic is somewhat higher, but is possibly tainted by spiders
17:38:04 <MutantTurkey> was there a spike for R13?
17:38:14 <kb9vqf-offsite> I wasn't collecting stats then :)
17:38:20 <MutantTurkey> ok
17:38:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> I only started last month after I accidentally flooded our new mirror
17:38:35 <MutantTurkey> I think another priority is getting ebuilds done
17:38:39 <MutantTurkey> and OpenSuse packages
17:38:42 <kb9vqf-offsite> I realized the userbase was larger than I thought :)
17:38:59 <MutantTurkey> with Fedora we have a slew of users coming in
17:39:07 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, if we finish OpenSUSE support there will be another flood
17:39:15 <kb9vqf-offsite> as KDE3 was kept on ice all this time
17:39:16 <MutantTurkey> #action Xu_R get htem done.
17:39:23 <MutantTurkey> I might have to just do it
17:39:26 <MutantTurkey> :p
17:39:41 <eliddell> We're trying with the ebuilds, but there are problems.
17:39:47 <kb9vqf-offsite> Obviously we want them to have a good first experience
17:39:49 <kb9vqf-offsite> what problems?
17:39:53 <kb9vqf-offsite> maybe I can help :)
17:39:54 <MutantTurkey> eliddell: you are collaborating with another person right?
17:40:08 <eliddell> Linker bug in non-cmake packages, some other stuff.
17:40:18 <kb9vqf-offsite> Ah
17:40:32 <eliddell> My collaborator is Roman.
17:40:39 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: eliddell should we hook you up with space on our tde-packagers git space/
17:40:41 <kb9vqf-offsite> eliddell: If you come across bugs that prevent OpenSUSE compilation, please file bug reports as P1 BLOCKER
17:40:53 <MutantTurkey> or will you continue using github
17:40:55 <MutantTurkey> ?
17:40:55 <kb9vqf-offsite> OpenSUSE support is officially a prioroty for R14
17:41:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> *priority
17:41:03 <eliddell> Serghei is working on GIT/R14 ebuilds, but wants someone else to do TQT
17:41:23 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: should I create a bug?
17:41:34 <MutantTurkey> we need some sort of goal tracker
17:41:35 <eliddell> Roman just opened a new GitHub overlay--we'll stay there for now, I think.
17:41:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> well, I was thinking more along the lines of we should be fixing bugs that are preventing OpenSUSE compilation
17:41:58 <MutantTurkey> eliddell: okay, most other packagers are using our repository so you are free to as well
17:42:15 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: I think it's more of the sheer amount of work rather than the compilation issues
17:42:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> I did want to keep the files in one spot; maybe we can import from github every now and then?
17:42:29 <MutantTurkey> Xu_R has been bogged down with AP classes and SAT work. he is very studious
17:43:09 * kb9vqf-offsite notes that projects with files in many different places tend to lose some of them
17:43:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> unless redundant copies are made :)
17:43:45 <eliddell> Thing is, Serghei's old ebuilds are on GitHub.
17:44:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> sure, and you can keep working there, I don't mind
17:44:12 <kb9vqf-offsite> I just would like to see if I can pull a copy into our GIT for backup
17:44:16 <MutantTurkey> should be easy to import to our repository anyway
17:44:20 <MutantTurkey> git -> git
17:44:20 <eliddell> And Gentoo has overlays scattered all over the Web, anyway.
17:44:25 <kb9vqf-offsite> ok
17:44:30 * kb9vqf-offsite is not familiar with Gentoo
17:45:01 <MutantTurkey> l0ner is working hard on Arch Linux packages as wel
17:45:02 <eliddell> We don't have much done yet. If we get kdebase/tdebase .13 completely cleaned up, I'll drop you a line.
17:45:12 <kb9vqf-offsite> sure
17:45:16 <MutantTurkey> he has almost all of our main packages finished
17:45:26 * kb9vqf-offsite needs to get going soon
17:45:27 <eliddell> Gentoo is kind of a weird distro to begin with.
17:45:36 * MutantTurkey has to as well
17:45:44 <MutantTurkey> lets move on really quickly then.
17:45:49 <kb9vqf-offsite> any other topics I should comment on?
17:45:52 <MutantTurkey> yes
17:45:56 <MutantTurkey> #topic window managers
17:46:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> ugh :(
17:46:04 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: okay your up for questions.
17:46:20 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: ping ping ping ping
17:46:47 <Baho> MutantTurkey: Why not use some of my work on the arch builds
17:46:47 <MutantTurkey> okay then
17:46:49 <kb9vqf-offsite> My earlier comments on this stand...while TDE should allow other WMs out of the box, twin will never go away
17:47:02 <Z_God> I'm here
17:47:15 <MutantTurkey> Baho: talk to l0ner, i've sort of stopped working on packages. i'm tryng to focus on devel
17:47:16 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: ask away
17:47:33 <Baho> MutantTurkey: OK
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
17:47:43 <Z_God> kb9vqf-offsite: what I was wondering about, do you think it would be feasily to make tqt/trinity source compatible in such a way that maybe kwin4 could compile against it?
17:47:50 <kb9vqf-offsite> It won't work
17:47:53 <Z_God> feasible*
17:48:04 <kb9vqf-offsite> kwin4 is highly integrated into kde4's core libraries
17:48:13 <kb9vqf-offsite> unless I'm wrong :)
17:48:15 <Strangelv> I've always assumed we wourld need to backport it or similar to run on non-Qt4 environments
17:48:17 <Z_God> but are they really so different from trinity's?
17:48:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
17:48:48 <eliddell> I find it odd that that KDE dev never gave a concrete example of a twin bug fixed in kwin. Why is it superior?
17:48:48 <Z_God> I would expect the binaries to be different, but the source... I  think the API would be similar
17:49:01 <MutantTurkey> bug 742
17:49:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> As I said I don't have a problem with allowing kwin, but I will never *require* it
17:49:17 <kb9vqf-offsite> and the APIs did change unfortunately
17:49:19 <Strangelv> Didn't they fix most of the bugs by starting over with a mostly new slate of bugs?
17:49:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> yep
17:49:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> kwin has a different focus
17:49:43 <kb9vqf-offsite> it aims to be a fancy effects type manager
17:49:46 <Z_God> I guess it'll be a matter of investigation to see which APIs kwin4 uses
17:49:50 <kb9vqf-offsite> sure
17:49:57 <Z_God> and whether some of them could be supported in trinity
17:49:59 <MutantTurkey> should we bump up bug 742 thouhg?
17:50:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> but I can almost guarantee dependence on new Qt4 features
17:50:19 <Z_God> what about supporting such features in tqt?
17:50:23 <kb9vqf-offsite> (some of which make things "easier" to program but also slow down the application 100x)
17:50:36 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: related question: twin is started by starttde scripts, if i created a user option to allow other WM's... how would I acces that option via a script? can I probe for kde settings via dcop?
17:51:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> well, to resolve the other WMs issue twin would be started via a different method
17:51:11 <MutantTurkey> I see
17:51:17 <MutantTurkey> okay then
17:51:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> part of me wants to see that stupid startkde script replaced with a C executable
17:51:30 <Z_God> kb9vqf-offsite: why?
17:51:31 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: I can do it
17:51:33 <MutantTurkey> if you want
17:51:46 <kb9vqf-offsite> Primarily for maintinance purposes
17:51:55 <MutantTurkey> faster as well.
17:51:58 <Z_God> is that easier to maintain than a shell script?
17:52:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> It is easier to add more detailed checks
17:52:21 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: it's 610 lines of crazy checks
17:52:22 <Z_God> I think having a shell script has quite a few advantages
17:52:24 <kb9vqf-offsite> e.g. I could probe more directories and gather more information about the system TDE is launching on
17:52:39 <kb9vqf-offsite> Z_God: Try accessing settings from the bash script
17:52:51 <kb9vqf-offsite> it always requires a wrapper executable
17:52:56 <Z_God> maybe settings should be stored differently then
17:53:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> Is there a good reason to have the script as opposed to a binary?
17:53:39 <kb9vqf-offsite> If there is then I will have to figure out another way to do this
17:53:39 <Z_God> it seems easier to debug issues with launching trinity to me
17:53:49 <MutantTurkey> #idea replace starttde with a C executable
17:53:50 <Strangelv> Are there components that a user might concievably want to customize?
17:53:56 <kb9vqf-offsite> but would those issues be there in the first place if the binary was "smarter"?
17:54:01 <eliddell> Easier to hack in distro-specific stuff with a script.
17:54:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> ok, so what I am seeing is a two-phase init system then
17:54:28 <MutantTurkey> #idea make sure all applications are consistent with the trinity HCI guidelines AND with other applications (eg shortcuts, menu items should all be the same)
17:54:32 <kb9vqf-offsite> at some point we will need to load settings
17:54:53 <kb9vqf-offsite> so the script will need to hand off control before the WM is launched
17:54:56 <Strangelv> Twto phase could be good -- it sounds like there might be stuff that's just clutter in the script for someone trying to make sense of it
17:55:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> although I really don't like some of that bash code
17:55:31 <kb9vqf-offsite> especially to detect directories and such
17:55:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> it just seems like it would be slow
17:56:00 <MutantTurkey> a c binary would be faster and suck less resources
17:56:11 <kb9vqf-offsite> but we do need to balance distro configurability
17:56:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> eliddell: Which areas of the startkde script are normally customized by the distro?
17:56:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> *a distro
17:56:45 <kb9vqf-offsite> this would be useful on an Etherpad
17:57:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> those areas which are universal (i.e. never altered) could be gathered up into a single executable
17:57:08 <eliddell> Gentoo has a chunk at the beginning--mostly filtering path to avoid conflicts with KDE4
17:57:09 <MutantTurkey> documented well also.
17:57:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> ok, so the ability to alter env. variables at the beginning is needed
17:57:55 * Strangelv isn't awake enough to read the comments in startkde but sees that it does have at least a sincere attempt at explaining what it's doing
17:58:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> I know there is some distro-specific stuff near the middle as well on Debian/Ubuntu, but there is a large chunk of directory checking that could/should be bound up in a single binar
17:58:23 <kb9vqf-offsite> *binary
17:58:56 <kb9vqf-offsite> C allows you to search more paths plain and simple
17:59:07 <kb9vqf-offsite> which would make the startup sequence more robust
17:59:12 <eliddell> Looking at it again, there's also some stuff pertaining to KDE3 updates and symlinking--dunno if it's still valid
17:59:31 <kb9vqf-offsite> you can also probe binary files information and contents of configuration files much more easily with C
17:59:40 <kb9vqf-offsite> trying to do that with bash would slow the init down to a crawl
17:59:57 <Strangelv> ...or did we add all of that commtenting?
18:00:02 <kb9vqf-offsite> We did
18:00:08 <eliddell> Other oddments--starting arts needs to be configured based on whether arts is installed, also gtk-qt stuff.
18:00:10 * kb9vqf-offsite is trying to make TDE launch correctly/uniformly on all systems
18:00:20 <MutantTurkey> arts...
18:00:37 <kb9vqf-offsite> #idea pass services to init to a master phaseii binary
18:00:40 <MutantTurkey> etherpad is the best place to figure this all
18:00:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> as command line arguments
18:00:53 <MutantTurkey> why not just pass arguments to the binary
18:00:56 <MutantTurkey> yeah
18:00:58 <kb9vqf-offsite> that's what I am saying :)
18:01:03 <MutantTurkey> starttde --environment blah blah balh
18:01:04 <MutantTurkey> or whatever
18:01:10 <MutantTurkey> using environment variables could work as well
18:01:19 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, and would be closer to the original behaviour
18:01:26 <MutantTurkey> okay I'm really running low on time
18:01:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> OK, anything else?
18:01:38 <MutantTurkey> Strangelv: go
18:01:57 <Strangelv> How about we table artwork until the next meeting unless others wanting to discuss it are here too?
18:02:08 <MutantTurkey> #idea force kb9vqf-offsite to hangout with MutantTurkey in the IRC at least one night a week
18:02:15 <MutantTurkey> Strangelv: I want to discuss it.
18:02:17 <kb9vqf-offsite> hehe
18:02:27 <MutantTurkey> I think artwork for R14 we need /some/ artwork improvments
18:02:32 <kb9vqf-offsite> agreed
18:02:34 <MutantTurkey> especially to certain crystal icons
18:02:39 <kb9vqf-offsite> hmmm
18:02:46 <MutantTurkey> #idea create etherpad page outlineing problems with current artwork
18:02:48 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes
18:02:50 <Strangelv> You can remember what we discussed before the meeting.  That's good
18:02:55 * Strangelv has been awake since yesterday
18:03:07 <kb9vqf-offsite> Create the Etherpad and I'll look over it
18:03:08 <MutantTurkey> Strangelv: well lets put this off to the Mailing list and etherpad then
18:03:15 <kb9vqf-offsite> BTW I would like the TDE logo to remain the way it is
18:03:33 <Strangelv> I'm wanting it to change, but want a lot more preparation before we change it
18:03:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> We already have recognition, and KDE4 has changed their logo anyway
18:03:41 <MutantTurkey> do you want it to stay the same or exactly the same?
18:03:47 <kb9vqf-offsite> generally the same
18:03:49 <MutantTurkey> ok
18:04:01 <Strangelv> KDE 4 changing theri logo does help us in this regard
18:04:07 <MutantTurkey> I have a graphic artist friend who could create a very nice svg version of it
18:04:10 <kb9vqf-offsite> cool
18:04:11 <MutantTurkey> which would help use use it wherever
18:04:18 <MutantTurkey> what about mascot?
18:04:23 <kb9vqf-offsite> Actually there is an svg version in SVN ;-)
18:04:29 <MutantTurkey> ok great
18:04:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> svgz IIRC
18:04:33 <Strangelv> Tim, you wanted an animal mascot.  I believe i have one to propose, but I'm not awake enough to argue in its fawor
18:04:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> mascot I am open to ideas
18:04:45 <kb9vqf-offsite> Etherpad works for me :)
18:04:58 <MutantTurkey> okay iterpad it is for all related artwork then.
18:05:03 <Strangelv> A bird.  Intelligent, and able to do all the cute things I wanted ot do with the robot
18:05:09 <Strangelv> Specifically, a crow
18:05:10 <kb9vqf-offsite> bird might be good
18:05:20 <Strangelv> no one else is usinga  crow that i can find
18:05:22 <MutantTurkey> aren't crows superstitiously bad?
18:05:31 <kb9vqf-offsite> that was my thought as well
18:05:33 <MutantTurkey> negative effect on us without people realizing it.
18:05:33 <Strangelv> Their reputation is improving
18:05:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> there are other members from the same species
18:05:52 <MutantTurkey> #action remove all references to the old mascots
18:06:04 <Strangelv> Say it's a jackdow instead of an American Crow, even if that's what we use for a reference?
18:06:10 <kb9vqf-offsite> basically
18:06:19 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: can we rename drkonqi? it's possibly the worst name of all time.
18:06:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> a member of Corvidae might work is the point
18:06:34 <eliddell> Raven? Has connotations of wisdom.
18:06:34 <MutantTurkey> tcrashhandler would be better... (sorry offtopic)
18:06:41 <MutantTurkey> Raven is wise
18:06:46 <kb9vqf-offsite> MutantTurkey: Yes!  Put it on the renaming wiki
18:06:52 <kb9vqf-offsite> s/wiki/Etherpad/g
18:06:58 <MutantTurkey> okay
18:06:59 <MutantTurkey> :)
18:07:09 <Strangelv> I wouldn't go with a Raven.  Lots of things use RAven,s, and it's frequently used with certian contexts in mind that are more specialized that we are by definition
18:07:09 <kb9vqf-offsite> raven sounds good
18:07:14 <MutantTurkey> ok
18:07:15 <kb9vqf-offsite> ok
18:07:21 <kb9vqf-offsite> All members of Corvidae are smart
18:07:26 <Strangelv> Yes
18:07:30 <Z_God> MutantTurkey: DrTatson maybe ;)
18:07:35 <Strangelv> That's the group I'm specificalyl suggesting
18:07:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> so just poke around for one without any negative connotations
18:07:42 <Strangelv> They maybe smarter than parrots
18:07:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> in principle I agree :)
18:08:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> I would like to see some specifics before committing, that's all
18:08:06 <MutantTurkey> I want to discuss conforming to the TDE HCI model and congruency between applications
18:08:07 <kb9vqf-offsite> good thinking though
18:08:10 <Strangelv> There's a TED video of them nearning to use a vending machine
18:08:11 <kb9vqf-offsite> ah, yes
18:08:44 <Strangelv> There's a bad illustration in the ad mockup I had for last meeting.  The bill is the wrong color
18:08:52 <eliddell> Wikipedia says: corvidae = crows, ravens, rooks, jackdaws, jays, magpies, treepies, choughs and nutcrackers
18:08:54 <MutantTurkey> I love that add
18:08:57 <MutantTurkey> magpies?
18:09:01 <MutantTurkey> they are nice
18:09:08 <kb9vqf-offsite> There are some perfectly dreadful applications in the TDE repository from an HCI perspective
18:09:18 <Strangelv> HCI?
18:09:24 <kb9vqf-offsite> Human Computer Interaction
18:09:46 <kb9vqf-offsite> The global category that includes interface design, workflow, etc.
18:09:54 <MutantTurkey> look at amarok it doesn't follow any normal menu convention
18:09:56 * Strangelv proposes replacing DrKonqui with Session Autopsy
18:10:16 <kb9vqf-offsite> Yes, what is "Engage" anyway?
18:10:17 <MutantTurkey> funny names aren't good. they're funny for a second, then 5 years later it's like... .wtf why did we use that.
18:10:18 <kb9vqf-offsite> :)
18:10:19 <Strangelv> ...or am I confusing its function?
18:10:26 <MutantTurkey> let stick with clear names
18:10:26 <MutantTurkey> that make sense
18:10:41 <kb9vqf-offsite> Well, drkonqui comes up as "The TDE Crash Handler"
18:10:47 <MutantTurkey> kmail vs kotope
18:11:07 <kb9vqf-offsite> drkonqui is an internal name IIRC
18:11:08 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: yeah... its a joke
18:11:14 <Strangelv> the kotope tame is more legitimately trademarkable and is less likely to be confused for some other applicatio
18:11:15 <MutantTurkey> shortcuts as well
18:11:22 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: i know, i still want to rename it
18:11:28 <MutantTurkey> also global shortcuts
18:11:44 <MutantTurkey> well indivudual shortcuts
18:11:44 <MutantTurkey> should be congruent across all applications
18:12:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> remember that codenames are cool to the devs, but the users won't remember what application does what
18:12:10 <kb9vqf-offsite> Look at Microsoft's naming scheme for instance
18:12:25 <MutantTurkey> my special left and right buttons on my thinkpad should switch documents in kate AND by default switch tabs in konqueror and tabs in konversation
18:12:28 <kb9vqf-offsite> The names are unique, but users can infer the function of each application in most instances
18:12:41 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: we should also publish the HCI model publicly.
18:12:55 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: also window sizes on many kcm modules are killing me
18:12:57 <MutantTurkey> on my laptop
18:13:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> Yes, I wanted to clean it up and formalize it, but I haven't been able to touch it unfortunately :(
18:13:04 <MutantTurkey> those sizes need to be brought down.
18:13:09 <Z_God> MutantTurkey: what about going back & forward?
18:13:22 <MutantTurkey> Z_God: I was just saying all the shortcuts should be the same on all applications by default
18:13:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> reasonably the same at any rate
18:13:36 <MutantTurkey> CTRL+O on amarok should open a regular file dialog, just like kate
18:13:38 <Z_God> yeah, but it needs to make sense
18:13:39 <MutantTurkey> reasonably.
18:13:51 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: the montor and display needs work
18:13:56 <kb9vqf-offsite> crashing?
18:13:58 <MutantTurkey> unfortately
18:14:02 <MutantTurkey> yes
18:14:03 <kb9vqf-offsite> bug report please
18:14:08 <kb9vqf-offsite> with backtrace
18:14:11 <MutantTurkey> and the window is huge...
18:14:38 <kb9vqf-offsite> part of that is the stupid widget sizes from certain widget themes that shall remain nameless
18:14:57 <kb9vqf-offsite> Qt4 has that cancer as well BTW
18:15:04 <kb9vqf-offsite> inefficient usage of screen real estate
18:15:11 <Strangelv> something that's been suggested is to make these things user-schangeable
18:15:19 <Strangelv> although that's obviously not something for 14
18:15:31 <kb9vqf-offsite> default widget sizes you mean?
18:15:51 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: ?
18:15:58 <MutantTurkey> i mean the window is just so big it won't fit onto any screen i use
18:15:58 <Strangelv> components that don't change size.  Someone was wanting them to be resizable.  I can't remember who
18:16:01 <MutantTurkey> my laptop of desktop
18:16:25 <MutantTurkey> gnome guidelines require windows be resizable to any size, i like that guidleine
18:16:32 <kb9vqf-offsite> MutantTurkey: And what I am saying is that the window is that large because all of the widgets ON that window are too large
18:16:34 <Strangelv> THAT problem is one I've run into repeatedly starting with at least Windows 95 and it would be very good to have a solution
18:16:35 <MutantTurkey> i swear its a iccm one as well
18:16:38 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: yes definitely
18:16:49 <MutantTurkey> okay well is tha tall?
18:17:05 <kb9vqf-offsite> There is no good solution unfortunately
18:17:10 <MutantTurkey> we need another effort for that
18:17:11 <MutantTurkey> I know
18:17:23 <MutantTurkey> another etherpad or something
18:17:27 <kb9vqf-offsite> The best I can do is set a minimum screen size
18:17:31 * Strangelv has large fonts on a monitor that's only 768 lines tall.  larger fonts or a shorter screen would only make things worse --  and there are users with that
18:17:50 <MutantTurkey> I have large fonts because I don't have great eyes
18:17:57 <MutantTurkey> makes it easier to do 12 hours a day
18:17:59 <MutantTurkey> :P
18:18:06 <Strangelv> I'm also often pretty far away from my monitor -- although not as much as I used tno be
18:18:21 <Strangelv> yea,h endurance is kind of important
18:18:30 <Strangelv> maybe that's another reson i make fonts really big
18:19:11 <eliddell> Alternative app layouts for small screens? Be a PITA to set up, though.
18:19:11 <MutantTurkey> :-)
18:19:18 <MutantTurkey> eliddell: they should just be scalable
18:19:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> well, I would have to set a minimum screen size and DPI
18:19:31 <MutantTurkey> 800x600?
18:19:36 <eliddell> I know, but that's not always practical.
18:19:36 <MutantTurkey> that seems reasonable?
18:19:38 <kb9vqf-offsite> Use KDE4 for that
18:19:44 <kb9vqf-offsite> I'm serious unfortunately
18:19:54 <kb9vqf-offsite> if you have that small of a screen use one of the iPad desktops
18:20:05 <Z_God> kb9vqf-offsite: I like using trinity on my TV
18:20:05 <Strangelv> I have 768 and theer's at least one window running around that's too tall anyway -- but I gcan't remember which one
18:20:05 <MutantTurkey> 1024x768
18:20:15 <MutantTurkey> that is on my 2011 X220 Thinkpad, not unusaly by all means
18:20:24 <kb9vqf-offsite> TDE is really designed for large workstations
18:20:30 <MutantTurkey> I know :/
18:20:33 <kb9vqf-offsite> I can understand laptops
18:20:33 <MutantTurkey> but it works great on small ones too
18:20:42 <Strangelv> my display is not up to the standards of the rest of my workstation
18:20:42 <kb9vqf-offsite> With some limitations of course ;-)
18:20:58 <kb9vqf-offsite> I can understand a maximum height to some extent
18:21:04 <MutantTurkey> again, laptops fit in the traditional desktop model
18:21:08 <MutantTurkey> ipads do not
18:21:08 <Strangelv> I procrastinated until I bought a house and suddenly no longer had the money, but I digress
18:21:11 <kb9vqf-offsite> but really I think what we want are scrollbars on the frame
18:21:27 <eliddell> Yeah, scrollbars are the accessory of last resort.
18:21:40 <kb9vqf-offsite> Design for a workstation, but still allow usage on a laptop
18:21:59 <Z_God> most things run fine with 640x480
18:21:59 <kb9vqf-offsite> the best solution of course would be to detect the screen size and adjust dynamically
18:22:09 <Strangelv> Scrollbars are a lot better than trying to lifht up the window so I can reach the buttons and fail, then press tab and hope to get it by trial and error
18:22:16 <Z_God> on trinity, scrollbars in some apps is no big problem
18:22:26 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: what about the embedding with kcmshell
18:22:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> that is what needs scrollbasrs
18:22:38 <MutantTurkey> couldn't we juts have it embed all modules withing a scrolled container
18:22:38 <kb9vqf-offsite> *scrollbares
18:22:40 <kb9vqf-offsite> *scrollbars
18:22:40 <Z_God> OT: I need to leave for dinner soon, anybody in here who is planning to go to Fosdem in Brussels?
18:22:43 <MutantTurkey> making the change just to one application?
18:22:53 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, that is what I am saying
18:22:57 <MutantTurkey> we need a Fosdem for USA
18:23:05 <MutantTurkey> anway I gott ago as well. lets close this meeting up
18:23:08 <Strangelv> Brussels is a little outside of the range of my power chair, alas
18:23:10 <MutantTurkey> #topic closing remarks
18:23:15 <MutantTurkey> #info happy trails
18:23:16 <kb9vqf-offsite> bugs, bugs, bugs, bugs
18:23:20 <kb9vqf-offsite> :D
18:23:21 <MutantTurkey> #info bugs bugs bugs
18:23:23 <MutantTurkey> #info bug day soon
18:23:28 <kb9vqf-offsite> patches welcome
18:23:28 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: seriously, a bug day would be good
18:23:32 <Z_God> ok, maybe I'll meet some KDE people there ;)
18:23:34 <Strangelv> :I hasve closing marks from a user to copy and paste, but maybe I could do that in the main room
18:23:34 <MutantTurkey> to review and close off unwarranted bugs and hack on real ones
18:23:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes.  schedule one and I will be there
18:23:41 <MutantTurkey> ok
18:23:45 <MutantTurkey> probably a saturday
18:23:46 <Strangelv> We need to handle the release of 14 better than we did 13
18:23:49 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, works for me
18:23:52 <MutantTurkey> okay great
18:23:52 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes we d
18:23:55 <MutantTurkey> Strangelv: we have it planned out
18:23:58 <MutantTurkey> 8 weeks to do a release
18:24:01 <MutantTurkey> i gotta go sorrt
18:24:25 * Strangelv : MikeD says, "I didn't have difficulties, I couldn't get the update from the site, they didn't have CDs available and I didn't feel like uninstalling Kubuntu, installing Ubuntu and installing TDE just for the sake of upgrading the version of KDE"
18:24:39 <Strangelv> HE's been running Windows ever since
18:24:50 <kb9vqf-offsite> not surporised
18:24:53 <kb9vqf-offsite> not surprised
18:25:06 <kb9vqf-offsite> KDE4 caused Linux to lose a LOT of users IMHO
18:25:16 <kb9vqf-offsite> I even considered Windows
18:25:16 <Strangelv> "This wasn't KDE 4
18:25:20 <Strangelv> THis was TDE 13
18:25:28 <Z_God> Strangelv: then it doesn't make sense
18:25:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> But the fact is he was not able to run a "mainstream" dsktop
18:25:36 <kb9vqf-offsite> like KDE4
18:25:46 <eliddell> He must have tried during the mirror debacle
18:26:12 <MutantTurkey> during the mirror problem over winter break it really hurt us i think
18:26:12 <Strangelv> very possible, but also before there was a CD image up
18:26:23 <MutantTurkey> a lot of users in the irc asking
18:26:23 <kb9vqf-offsite> All I can say is that our dev team is limited
18:26:33 <MutantTurkey> sort of made me realize people actually care :-)
18:26:50 <kb9vqf-offsite> And I do put the blame for lost Linux users squarely on KDE4 and Gnome 3
18:27:00 <kb9vqf-offsite> Without TDE they would have been gone already
18:27:12 <Z_God> I think distros shoud've waited with KDE4
18:27:13 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: tde is still up and coming
18:27:26 <Z_God> can't really blame upstream for that
18:27:30 <MutantTurkey> kb9vqf-offsite: would you say development help has picked up since last year?
18:27:45 <kb9vqf-offsite> yes, but it also seems to be levelling out now
18:27:59 <MutantTurkey> R14 should see an uptick
18:28:02 <Z_God> I'm off now btw, have a nice day all!!
18:28:06 <MutantTurkey> cya Z
18:28:20 <kb9vqf-offsite> Z_God: I am only saying that while we have lost users due to problems, those users would have left Linux back in 2009 anyway
18:28:29 <kb9vqf-offsite> And yes we need to do everything possible to prevent this :)
18:29:27 <MutantTurkey> also.... gtk integration needs serious work
18:29:30 <kb9vqf-offsite> I wish we had a dev team of dozens, then we could crank out a very high quality release often
18:29:41 <MutantTurkey> #endmeeting

notes

================================================================================
#trinity-desktop-meeting: Trinity Developer Meeting, 01 February 2012, 12 PM EST
================================================================================


Meeting started by Xu_R|School at 17:00:34 UTC. The full logs are
available at
http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/lincomlinux/MeetBot/trinity-desktop-meeting/2012/trinity-desktop-meeting.2012-02-01-17.00.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---------------
* LINK: http://git.trinitydesktop.org/   (kb9vqf-offsite, 17:02:05)
* GIT + changes  (Xu_R|School, 17:02:14)
  * GIT migration is complete, available at git.trinitydesktop.org.
    (Xu_R|School, 17:02:37)
  * documentation also at git.trinitydesktop  (Xu_R|School, 17:03:03)
  * LINK: http://git.trinitydesktop.org/cgit/   (MutantTurkey, 17:03:04)
  * IDEA: use two git branches, a stable branch and a development branch
    to help keep development sane  (MutantTurkey, 17:04:28)
  * LINK:
    https://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/~slavek-banko/+archive/axis/+packages?start=0&batch=300
    (kb9vqf-offsite, 17:05:47)
  * LINK: http://trinitydesktop.org/patches is a good place to look to
    see what has been happening recently to the codebase BTW
    (kb9vqf-offsite, 17:07:28)
  * ACTION: how to submit a bug and patch  (MutantTurkey, 17:10:37)
  * AGREED: more bugs should be closed before nightly builds start again
    (Xu_R|School, 17:11:52)
  * ACTION: focus on blocker and major bugs  (MutantTurkey, 17:12:11)

* Building Trinity  (Xu_R|School, 17:12:42)
  * all modules + apps should build with Qt3/TQt3, *except* tdebindings
    (Xu_R|School, 17:19:11)
  * ACTION: create a simple explaination on the wiki of tqtinterface,
    tqt3, and what the difference is  (MutantTurkey, 17:19:24)

* R14 Preparation  (Xu_R|School, 17:22:33)
  * bugs bugs bugs  (MutantTurkey, 17:22:58)
  * LINK:
    http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/report.cgi?z_axis_field=bug_severity&format=pie&x_axis_field=bug_status&query_format=report-graph&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=TDE+3.5&component=arts&component=debian&component=fedora&component=kdeaccessibility&component=kdeaddons&component=kdeadmin&component=kdeartwork&component=kdebase&component=kdeedu&component=kdegames&component=kdegraphics&component=kd
    (kb9vqf-offsite, 17:23:26)
  * LINK: http://goo.gl/ERjuQ   (kb9vqf-offsite, 17:24:13)

* CMake Conversion  (MutantTurkey, 17:34:17)
  * IDEA: put together a guide on converting to cmake  (MutantTurkey,
    17:34:50)
  * IDEA: create a strict specification on how we want this done
    (MutantTurkey, 17:35:03)
  * ACTION: convert a few before R15  (MutantTurkey, 17:35:18)
  * ACTION: Xu_R get htem done.  (MutantTurkey, 17:39:16)

* window managers  (MutantTurkey, 17:45:56)
  * IDEA: replace starttde with a C executable  (MutantTurkey, 17:53:49)
  * IDEA: make sure all applications are consistent with the trinity HCI
    guidelines AND with other applications (eg shortcuts, menu items
    should all be the same)  (MutantTurkey, 17:54:28)
  * IDEA: pass services to init to a master phaseii binary
    (kb9vqf-offsite, 18:00:37)
  * IDEA: force kb9vqf-offsite to hangout with MutantTurkey in the IRC
    at least one night a week  (MutantTurkey, 18:02:08)
  * IDEA: create etherpad page outlineing problems with current artwork
    (MutantTurkey, 18:02:46)
  * ACTION: remove all references to the old mascots  (MutantTurkey,
    18:05:52)

* closing remarks  (MutantTurkey, 18:23:10)
  * happy trails  (MutantTurkey, 18:23:15)
  * bugs bugs bugs  (MutantTurkey, 18:23:21)
  * bug day soon  (MutantTurkey, 18:23:23)

Meeting ended at 18:29:41 UTC.




Action Items
------------
* how to submit a bug and patch
* focus on blocker and major bugs
* create a simple explaination on the wiki of tqtinterface, tqt3, and
  what the difference is
* convert a few before R15
* Xu_R get htem done.
* remove all references to the old mascots




Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * how to submit a bug and patch
  * focus on blocker and major bugs
  * create a simple explaination on the wiki of tqtinterface, tqt3, and
    what the difference is
  * convert a few before R15
  * Xu_R get htem done.
  * remove all references to the old mascots




People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* kb9vqf-offsite (281)
* MutantTurkey (240)
* Xu_R|School (51)
* Strangelv (49)
* Z_God (48)
* eliddell (20)
* [lindaemon] (4)
* Baho (2)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot