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Out of the Crisis with Eric Ries, Brian Chesky interview (part 2)
0:00:00 this is out of the crisis I marry Chris
0:00:06 no better time than now to be an entrepreneur
0:00:11 so many of your kind of companies you know began in a crisis and in some of these conversations we've talked about why in the boom times everything gets more expensive except cost of capital in a recession it's reverse no better time than now because we are living in a collapse of society the old normal is never coming back
0:00:31 when there's a forest fire the ground becomes more fertile for the next trees to grow
0:00:37 that process of creative destruction it's not easy but it does mean that right now there is an unprecedented opportunity to shape the future we are about to see a tectonic change in the way the world operates new businesses new institutions new Norms will rule the pandemic is changed almost everything and we are living with the reality of exponential growth
0:01:03 this is an example of exponential growth gone bad like a cancer or Ponzi scheme but what if you could harness exponential growth for good
0:01:15 what if you could use it to build exponentially not just destroy
0:01:20 all of our major institutions are being tested like never before but as big as they are as established as they are as old as they are remember they were built once by people but I brought that Vision to reality we are the beneficiaries of fair for sign determination we owe our grandparents a debt of gratitude for the institutions that still govern our daily life
0:01:48 but what new institutions were our grandchildren thanked us for having created for having designed out of this pandemic
0:01:57 what if we could start a new set of exceptional company of Institutions that grow exponentially that have positive impact exponentially what are built on new principal in 21st century are the right mix of Art and Science and that make long-term bold commitments commitments to respect their employees their customers their Partners to build products that are healthy for human beings and the communities they inhabit focusing not just on the short-term but on generational lasting change we have that opportunity right now as we speak to build the future we want if we will it
0:02:39 this is the moment for entrepreneurs no time like the present
0:02:45 in this the latter half of my conversation with Brian chesky our Focus shifted we stop talking about the normal that was and morning it's lost and started to talk about what the new normal could be if we seized the opportunity we have in front of us
0:03:03 design your organization or it will be designed for you he told me
0:03:09 and this is true not just of startups but of so many of the institutions that govern Society we the broad public we need to design a society we want to inhabit or it will be designed for us we're going to need entrepreneurs to make that happen no better time than now
0:03:36 here is the second part of my conversation with Brian chesky
0:03:42 you know what are things I've really appreciated getting the chance to work with you is that you you view the decision that you're making through this lens not only of how it affects you your company Define airily but really the effect it has on on a broader community on on many people and in particular you've given a lot of thought to the example that you want others to follow so for other companies especially for this next generation of Founders who look up to you and what you have accomplished here what do you want them to take away from your example here what what do you want them to do differently as a result of the pandemic and what what's your vision for what like a new the new community of Founders and leaders might build when we get to The New Normal what's a good question I'll tell you what I wish someone told me in by the way it was a bison if it wouldn't want to hear this out I say no better time than now this great reset this is like a once-in-a-century reset moment right
0:04:42 the suddenly all Dogma it's kind of out the window all convention can be jettisoned and it's times like this that a new generation often emerges right and there is the new generation entrepreneurs and what I would tell those new lunch urination entrepreneurs is the day you start your company is the day you have the most Freedom you'll ever have to do whatever you think it's the right thing to do the bacon whatever you want baked in in every single day it's harder than day before there's never going to be a day you go to sleep where you going to say you know what it's going to be way easier to just really hard thing you know whether it's like you know like I don't know I'll just make a bunch of things maybe you want to set aside 1% of equity for charity or maybe you want to give to your profits away or maybe you want to create a nonprofit or maybe you want to hear another thing maybe be very careful about being addicted to growth that is not good for the world you know
0:05:42 we've had this challenge ourselves because we have to be very mindful of the the impact housing has in the communes Ren and you get in and so it it's easy to not do something until you become big in Reliant in a lot of people rely on it and so I would try to be as principal this possible I would tell every founder write down who you want to be who you want to be remembered for what are your values when you interview somebody you got to ask yourself like you're almost giving them authority to make a whole bunch of citians and also hire people just like them with their values and you're not going to be there to whatever decision he made so you may be really careful and clear about what you stand for in the more exhausted you are the better just write down every single thing that's important to you when the last time we just wrote down every single thing we could think of that's important to that is the most important map you will ever have in your life at least professionally for what you're going to do write it down now and by the way you don't even think of everything it can be a living list but I bet you there's a lot of things are
0:06:42 turn the founders they're not running it down there not doing it I never never they never do it and they never reflect those values and those ideas into their corporate structure and governance now don't I cook bake a cake put in the oven and think you can add an egg later give some examples what are the structural things that you have done now that we're hard at you wish you done earlier that you just anyone listening you want them to make sure they do I'll just give you a list number one Define your core values your core values will evolve do not hire anyone without knowing the values that you want them to share with you they may be just behaviors you're the way you think about your values it's not like Integrity or honesty your hard work everyone does that what do you believe to be true the other companies don't whatever those things are those values of behaviors like Airbnb like we care deeply about like being caring and compassionate because that's the business we're in so we have a value call be a host and we
0:07:42 make sure we take everything we do into that basic values written on every every employee badge you were just exactly be a host and I'm so so you got to write the all your values down and then you cannot believe they can be evolved but you really should write them down and make them non-obvious almost like things you could disagree with and knows your defining character then write down all of your stakeholders everyone if they be listening probably have employees or will you have shareholders you have customers forget our gas you may have suppliers vendors partners and then you have Society so you probably have five might have more we have fought write them down and then by the way you define them like what is an employee is a contingent worker an employee in like how are going to cheat on saying like there's there's shade that there's a producer precision's is excise then write down how you will serve them if you had to make them promise if you never wanted to break will be the most meaningful promises you can make these take what you never want to break those are your principles and is probably just two or three per and they're probably unique and make sure that they get baked in now start to ask her
0:08:42 when I'm designing products let's look at these principles let's measure them when I'm planning my roadmap look at every single one of these things and ask yourself to what extent you building them I'd also look your corporate structure a b c u l t s e a corporate structure the easiest time to create a corporate structure is before you raise any money and you have any members of any venture capitalist in your bored the next easiest time to change your corporate structures we only have one venture capitalist on your break and then they only have two and you have only reached a little bit of money and everyday it gets harder it's kind of like exercising I don't not sure it ever gets easier to get in shape the older you get for the first time it has like that Pablo Picasso had a saying the older you get the stronger the wind is and it's always in your face will that can be said of companies the bigger you get the stronger the wind gets and it's always in your face and if you think you're going to have more courage tomorrow then you do today going to have a lot more pressure tomorrow then you do today today is your most courageous moment today is the moment you can do more than you ever could ever do in your life
0:09:42 and you know you may have more resources tomorrow you'll have a lot more pressures and it's going to be really really hard and that's why companies become a corporate will corporate being corporate is basically just an exercise in compromise you just start making compromises in one day you wake up and you made so many compromises your shelf who used to be so I think that governance these are really important things you know anything that like is Define and get out I would just some of the things I'm sure there's like an article or blog post I should like I should be more organized at all the thing for those are just some things I've ever had is that with some folks on your team Euro me remember this I actually had printed up a deck of cards of deck of playing cards of long-term multi-stakeholder governance ideas that you know encapsulated big signs of principles that were talking about how we actually sat at a desk it and inside and lay them all out and color coded them against the five principles and like
0:10:42 I really would like okay if a company wants to say they're going to win The public's trust by being a 20% you're coming over to make that incredible and binding promise
0:10:51 what should be included and it was really it was really moving to actually like make it specific cuz imma what should the board structure look like should there be a stakeholder Committee of the board should should take orders have representation in the governance how are we going to take care of our stakeholders economically how do we make sure that they share in the wealth creation that these a non credible Financial engines that were able to build and you're not so I really appreciate the space that you have opened up in the conversation not just inside your company of course but in Silicon Valley in the Waterworld to really start to make it specific activities in some empty promise we're going to be serious at this next generation is going to build institutions that are fit for purpose in the 21st century and here's what it might look like here could be the blueprint and I think what I think's you've touched on use the word blueprint I think here's another way of saying it
0:11:44 you should design your company or your company will be designed for you and if your company is designed for you every time they listening underlie not like the product you have every single thing you do you design Orcutt designed for you and don't expect that the organic process is going to yield the result that you're happy with thousands of Founders and CEOs I have live with hundreds of thousands of Warcraft and needs were cats are called organic decisions that were designed for them it's funny that use the word design you know he famously a receipt train designer Inn and we usually think of design is something that is applied to physical objects you know we talked about toothbrushes and rocket ships but you were talking about the design of the organization itself so talk about that like in some ways the product that you make is not your website it's not the travel is not even the delightful experiences the product is the organization that brings stakeholders together to produce those outcome
0:12:45 and I just think what your perspective as a designer on the challenge of trying to design an organization that can institutionalize those intentions
0:12:53 it's a really challenging thing you know when I'm when I was younger I was kind of first came to talk about when I was at RISD one of the companies that I admired and it would that was one of many with apple you know I went to RISD from 2,000 2,000 for the iPod come out to at someone and you're really that was the moment that industrial design experience this golden age and I was a duck Diner until Steve Jobs was like a huge influence on me and also cuz he was not an engineer he's kind of more like a designer in fact Steve Jobs. Houston artist when he died he thought of his work as a body of work like an artist in fact that's why Apple Jony Ive made a special edition like white coffee table book was like a retrospective of his work thumbs up again but one of the things that I think was said about Steve and I think maybe Johnny may have said it was the greatest product that Apple ever designed with the company because the company was the foundation
0:13:53 for all future Innovation and so I think you need to almost think of your company as a product as the most important product you'll ever make and let's think of it this way the more successful you are the longer your company will exist and the longer company would exist the more your original product ideas will expire and you'll have to have an innovation engine to create many new products and so one of the hardest things is institutionalizing something Founders are used to doing everything themselves so true institutionalizing basically means something that you want happens happens when you're not in the room how do you make sure something happened that you want to happen when you're not in the room you how hard that is like when you leave a room does everything happen exactly as you wish it did not often well that's what it would feel like imagine having a thousands of people you leave a room for years in over the course of years many things happened that you wanted to have happened maybe better than you ever would have thought that's what it means institutionalized what it really means is that you have to write down
0:14:53 all these principles all these values they can semen nauseating make it seem exhausting this is another example being long-term when we ended up hiring people I spent months looking to hire first engineer with Joey and Joanne 8 and the reason we spent months and a lot of people are very lacks of days ago they're very casual about their first tired I always said what I want to hire a hundred people like this person because whether I like it or not if we're successful enough I may have on your people like them because you're also given them authority to hire and make decisions that veto rights and so I spent we spent months are in our very first people I interviewed personally the first 400 hires at the company I regret that by the way not intervene the first thousand people I would probably interview the first 500 employees I don't think there's a CEO alive that is too busy to interview the first time your employees somebody once said to me you should ask your mama to this
0:15:53 Sam Walton told me when I first read my Sequoia and he was funded by Sequoia before him he was kind of like The Golden Child Sequoia in the 2008/2009 he said you should spend 50% your time hiring 25%. 50% this is the most fun a metal thing you'll ever do is counter to somebody Andreessen Horowitz just stomp he said you should spend 8 hours doing a reference checks per employee 8 hours a reference check sperm play the I don't spend 8 hours to reference checks by pricing for 5 hours Rochester employee you know how many people do not spend four to five hours doing reference checks in 1 hour or even one hour doing any and then there's surprised that the person is not what they thought they were well their job was to tell you what you want to hear an interview that that's one of your best buddy is so these are like counter to two things that seem very very painful so in crisis it is kind of when you say Burkhalter right you are what you do
0:16:50 and if you are what you do you most are what you do with your in your most harrowing in defining of times so like right now so I'd say every single company in the world they're probably leaving indelible Mark for the next 10 years whether you realize it or not they're probably doing that right now and so if you always think of yourself it's in defining moment and you say how do you want to be remembered it rarely will lead you down the wrong road doesn't mean you should spend months making the decision you all set to be the decisive so I don't know I'm just thinking out loud here but these are just some things that come to mind me I'm also a student I studied companies that I admired and I was Shameless about learning every single thing about them try to reverse-engineer you know when we were when we were we launched we were a Marketplace Paul Graham we couldn't explain how we couldn't figure out explain a concept and Paul Graham was kind of one of the people he started by, nor his own people that kind of helped popularize beat X 4y
0:17:50 Airbnb for dogs right the mister that it before they were Airbnb 4X / 4X we were they are we were the we were the eBay of space he said you should say you're the eBay space cuz eBay's big and ever want to space it so we became the eBay for space that point I said to become a student eBay I ended up interviewing like a couple doesn't exactly from eBay former Executives learning every single thing about you pay what they did right what they did wrong and then you know I started learning about Amazon Fresh coupon Amazon started hurting eBay and look what did they get right to even got wrong and so I started interviewing all these people on Amazon to becoming a student I wanted to feel like I understood the company added level even deeper than Executives were there because they had never been introspective about why they were successful or fail they just happen to them and I said I want to I want to like being an author I want to like really understand that they did the same thing Apple I mean Apple the thing that is so defining of Airbnb another thing is not just head and heart
0:18:50 it's Art and Science you know I'm a designer Joseph designer my co-founder Nate is a computer scientist with Harbor so apple is the marriage of the Liberal Arts and Technology so I study them inside and out in you don't got to know a lot of them literally hours ago and now so we hired the VP of AppleCare and she manages you know all the customer service and AppleCare it's totally amazing or needs Terrebonne still be hired her in regulations I've worked in the past with Jony Ive is been a friend and other isn't so I'm just I'm pretty Shameless and I found that like those better often most successful are those that are most Shameless and I don't need to say much like your disrespectful just trying to look at you trying to learn ask for help the people that grow the fastest ask for help and you know the people I can always predict the people that aren't going to get promoted in are going to flame out the know-it-alls yeah because of you know everything and I can learn anything and I can be assured you're not going to know everything you need to know to go on this adventure whatever that Adventure is
0:19:50 entrepreneurship the problem entrepreneurship is what kind of like in the pioneering business we're in the business of doing is not be done before will therefore like kind of text books are not so useful there only useful for principals like to learn about eBay's principle but I can't do eBay dead cuz the technology in the World to Change. I got to do something new she got to kind of learn how to thank you got to be Shameless and to use another Pablo Picasso quote cuz I'm obviously a fan of him he said it took me four years to learn to paint like Raphael but it took me a lifetime to learn to paint like a child all child in a born artist the promise to remain Artist as we grow up a child is curious they're open-minded they learn they grow your iPod learn the most were any of the first five years of my life and doesn't it seem like every year were alive we tend to learn lesson here before the fortunately hey I got a six-year-old at home and I got a test to this first only you can learn your six-year-old but some of its biological obviously but also the mentality
0:20:50 it's oh so long as we can be curious and be shameful and I'll just be shameful ask people for help very few people will say no to you and by the way it doesn't cost anything to ask and you'll be surprised that generosity and that's what I think is really too funny about Silicon Valley is that people want to help you the only Alaska and I think that people sometimes are very like afraid of being vulnerable they don't want to seem stupid they want to show the world they know everything and it's like who gives a shit just be Shameless in taking knowledge as quickly as possible that's when an entrepreneur does what entrepreneur does as they use every single Advantage they have and they are Shameless about splitting the advantages that they have a busy with Hannaford to give any of them away but you should be seamless you know if you're if you're really good at something don't feel bad about leveraging the thing you're really good at you know maybe another way of saying it is
0:21:48 be willing to be vulnerable and ask for help and don't be afraid to ask for help and never ever be afraid to say you don't know something it is actually freeing to be able to do that yeah we're all in the business of learning the number one thing I ever had to learn how to deal with to learn and the way to learn is to go to the source if you had 10 hours to learn about a subject the Albert the average person would read everything they can about a subject in those 10 hours for what happens when you're not up in here and you have 10 hours need to learn 10 things started learned how to do is to learn quickly and the way to learn is to spend more time not learning about the subject but spend more time learning who the source is the defining Source the Oracle of that subject matter and then learn the first principles the defining kind of
0:22:41 principle that you can hold information on Tunes like a tree you don't learn the don't learn about the tree leaves learn about the fundamental branches but you often need to go to the store since who know the subject the most clearly as if you want to learn about management like I don't like weed help with management they will teach that book will teach you the fundamental first principles of management rather than reading a whole bunch of articles online are all these like self-help business books and you haven't really learned the first principles I found that first principles type thinking to be maybe one of the most impactful things I've ever ever discovered in my life I think first principle thinking gets you away from analogy thinking and it gets you away from dogma and Dogma is the death of being an entrepreneur like this probably a good reason it's that way while there's a reason it's that way it's because people before you had less information than you had yeah that's why I was talking to a bunch of Executives who wanted to know how they could help in the pandemic response and they were talking about the different effort that need to get bill here and ever
0:23:41 thing that I was saying they were kind of very skeptical about this relief effort or that relief effort as I got seems everything seemed really small and how big a deal could it be and I'm talking about the institutions that we take for granted that make up our Civic life today you know from the United Nations on down at the people who built those institutions from scratch didn't know that they were building the United Nations but they didn't know what it was going to be didn't know it was going to work and we can if we become bigger they become part of our Lives we kind of forget that there was a Pioneer behind every single one of them especially if those organizations going to lose their soul and become kind of corporate and stayed in bureaucratic they start to seem inevitable like while they were just always here and we forget that somebody had to take that initially but Faith had to have that initial inside and of course it's often not just one somebody but that that spirit is something that we don't want to lose and I feel like when I say I've watched you too in your own work is to insist that a 20% tree company is one that can never really rest
0:24:41 NASA always be Reinventing itself engaged in the process of continuous transformation always seeking out the next opportunity the next way to be of service and I think that philosophy has served you really well in this crisis I'm also Bob Dylan fan Bob Dylan send an artist have to be in a constant state of becoming in the moment you think you became something at the moment it's over and so you know company like it's Bella take a technology company what is the word technology means a synonym of the word Technologies change go for a technology company we're really things were change company and wear it change company in the world that is changing quicker every year and the year before acceleration North lot and so the most important thing a company can do is be really good at changing and evolving now there are some things that should never change probably your principles you think about the United States it's founded on
0:25:39 probably chew core values to basic principles the first principle is one of equality we hold these truths to be self-evident and the second quarter value which sometimes comes in, the first is this idea the pursuit of happiness to everyone says idea of the American dream the pursuit of happiness in these two principles have been around for hundreds of years and you hold true to those principles you don't let go of those but everything else can change and evolve and you have to do and sometimes we we like we think like the the like the color of the paint is the thing that's precious you know we think I like the likes to know none of that really all that can change there's a few things that are going to endure in the things you write down now when you're young those are things under everything else can change in years later you're going to hire people if you have a company and they're going to think like they can't change I can't change the color of this thing I can't change this somebody before
0:26:39 and they must have known what they were doing like we didn't we made a really quick decisions and we had to make the best decision we had the information we had in you we hired you to change it every time I hire someone I said I just need you to know one thing you're on your honeymoon you're happy you joined hear you if you weren't happy would have joined and this is like when it happened to you over base or first date welcome Airbnb 100 days from now couple under days from now some point in the honeymoon's going to wear off and then suddenly you realize this place isn't as perfect as you thought it would that happens I want you to look around and want you to know that everything is built around you was built by people before you and then less information than you have and you're here to change things and I think it's really important that we always remember that we are in the change business work on sale here to change things so long is a few enduring principles go on you should change everything as quickly as possible and I think that companies lose their nerve they lose their courage you get bigger the wind get stronger than your face and it's harder to to make changes
0:27:39 the real challenge of leadership is to I don't know that the keeper boldness to like not lose your nerve as you grow and you have more to lose you know you talked about the importance of having those fundamental principles and throughs be reflected in the decisions of people make when you're not there and of course the ultimate version of that is you know none of us are going to live forever except maybe the guys work on the immortality startups are an exception but the rest of us you know plan to build organizations that someone else will run sometime in the future in one of the big lessons that I've learned building LCSC if people ask me all the time hey but couldn't companies just do the things that you advocate for on their own and answer that's of course they could but the question is if you're going to make a binding promise if you're going to institutionalize your intentions eventually this company will be run by somebody else you'll have a different board a different CEO a different CFO and why on Earth would you have any reason to believe that they will share the commitments
0:28:39 you've made so you can make all the promises you want that you're going to take care of your community or have whatever your philosophy is but how do you make commitments that could be enduring through the fabric of the organization for a long time and that's one thing I really have appreciated and working together is used to have this perspective that it's not all about you even though yes you're the founder yes you know you are the head of community you're the one who has accomplished so much on behalf of your own the station yet you have this Vision that that more is possible if people carry that Vision into the future and can do more even than you you could come and see if it's just can you just share a little bit about why you think you have that view that's a different than other Tech Founders and energy Bradley why is perspective school first of all it's definitely not about me and most people don't give a crap about me and I'm okay with that and maybe I'll even take peace in that and it's right once you get really big in Silicon Valley
0:29:39 it's alright everyone here is really religious they all think they're God you know if that's the kind of thought that happen to like yeah I know it's actually a really religious place here is like everyone there. There's a lot of like odd Messi on attendance season Silicon Valley and if you get to be cautious about that and I understand why people kind of lose their shit basically so let me get this first point is that you can really lose your shit because you have this power you've never had that you can see that you can impact people's lives would be wonderful they can really distort you and I've seen a lot of Founders I mean I'm not going to name names but I will I will just leave it blank and you can fill in whatever names you want but think about it been so good after 10 years I've seen a lot of Founders that seem to have their head together and then their head really wasn't screwed on quite right and yeah any instability they suddenly thought they were like you know and it really took him down I mean it's almost like the best thing you can do to be a successful possible in to preserve yourself is to not think you're you're you're so great
0:30:39 that I mean it. We won't name any names here but you know the last 18 months we have had a number of occasions to sit with founding teams and CEOs of other high-profile companies that are are thinking about what they want their long-term future to be and try to convince him to buy into this vision and I I don't know how much you want to talk about those conversations yeah there were many, so I couldn't believe the the arrogance of the denial and the stealing it like they have it covered they BB find the bad things are going to happen to them and the indifference to the impacts at their Works going to have on others and then you know now it's been enough time to see many of those companies run into exactly the problems we were trying to warn them about don't you feel like so many people that were so arrogant we're been humbled by this pandemic because anyone they thought they knew everything realize how little we really know about the world and like it's been a humbling experience for so many of us and so I thought the first thought
0:31:39 yeah you first of all can't think it's all about you and by the way like 700 like we had 700 million guest arrivals is very few of them know who I am and care and I'm okay with that like I understand that they have their needs their life may need to live their life the second thing I'll say is this though and this isn't even the more important point
0:31:58 first of all I don't have any children and so those who have children and have found it companies they reserve the right to let them disagree with this analogy and you have children in a Founders you can tell me if you disagree with his analogy I'm going to presume something so I don't have children I think starting a company especially company that you deeply love and care for that becomes your life and that's what it's been forever and be as a Founder I think myself a bit like the parent and I think of Airbnb as a child I did not know until recently when people say bad things about me in the press it doesn't actually bother me as much as I may say bad things about Air B&B I would have thought the inverse I would have thought it was more personal when you attack me and oddly and it's somehow feels more personal when people attack the company than me I don't know I can't quite put my finger on it if you insulted a parent I think they'd be less insulting and if you insulted their child right like a hundred thousand times you can't even get the same phenomenon
0:32:58 he is not a great analogy maybe maybe some would say all your freaking crazy what you have a child that you're nothing like that but I do feel like a parent and the thing as a parent if you want your child to outlive you and I do not want it on my watch while I'm alive watch something that is been so important to me not endure it doesn't mean all copies are meant to live forever and they're not going to live forever but at least these things you know there's this old story called the second half of the chessboard it was told to me by Tom Freeman he's accomplished New York Times and uses the story the parable and so I don't know if that ever happened but the parable goes like this The Peasant invented the game of chess and he goes to the king of the local tribe me show them look what I did in the king said wow how can I repay you and for your service and he said all I want is enough rice to feed my family for the rest of my life and a king said surely I'll grant you your wish how much rice is that and he says here's what you do I want you to take a grain of rice and put on the first Square
0:33:58 and then I want you to Double H Square so put two grains rice in the second then for than 816-3264 when you get the idea and the Kringle I kind of laughed and said surely I'll grant you all that Rice not realizing that he granted him the power of 64 so it's like doubling every times has a thousand such a thousand million a billion a trillion quintillion accept it you don't like so it's like a few septillion grains of rice or something like that and the point is all the games are on the second half of the chessboard so if you really want to make an impact on the world most the biggest impact the Cubs going to make our in its most later years if you study companies around for a hundred hundred fifty years the founders would be gone for decades sometimes they've been gone for 50 75 years most impact was made after them that doesn't mean that everyone wants to start a company in again I don't want to sound like I'm also some crazy person who thinks I'm going to like this enduring impact in the world but if you are going to pour your heart and soul into something you know
0:34:58 it's not significantly more work to also try to ensure its survivability and you know I think some of the most important things and institutions in the world are things that hinder and so you know you're going to have to endure but you know it can be very special we can make up at unique impact in the world that can touch so many more lives if it does and you need to descenso going back to you know when you CEO here's how to think about it you should design your company so that the wrong person running your company doesn't ruin your company because eventually that might happen will put a link in the show notes to the second half of the chessboard strategy guide to technology story but it's a really important one because you know it's become a cliche that tech companies trying to change the world but things that truly changed the world as we're all living through right now are things that have this exponential
0:35:58 impact to them and I think what people forget is that cancer is exponential you know Ponzi scheme is any potential exponential growth as dangerous as we're living through right now and the Art of hyper-growth Entrepreneurship is how do you harness those exponential forces to do good in the world yet maybe the only thing worse than your company not enduring is your company enduring for the wrong reasons and it like being bad for the world and having some 11 in fact that that weren't intended and that continues to grow and so it's really really important in the early part of your history and that you're really thoughtful and if you feel like you know there's Parts your company that you can't defend that you don't try to defend them that you try to fix them and myself everyday I can't convince myself that 100% of everything I'm doing is right it doesn't mean you're trying to ever do something wrong but there's no way you can build a product hundred million people use it and every single way it's used
0:36:58 was how was Brently's intended for and you really proud of that and I think that's the humility that we all need to have is to recognize that like we designed these tools that these tools were used for good and not-so-good that technology is like power Tech nuclear power can be used for good or bad and you got to be really thoughtful and I you know the ultimate idea of a designer it to put thought you're in love into your product can be very thoughtful about how your products are used and I think the one thing that is so frustrating is when you feel like it was a sense of carelessness designed into a product and I think the opposite of carelessness has a deep sense of care and that is one of the greatest ways to give a gift to somebody else's to show that you care even if it's in beauty products so you've talked a lot about learning about humility and I'll learn from others but also about your bored in the role that you're bored has played you know you're lucky to have a very strong board with lyrics like Ken Chenault
0:37:58 feel better American Express turn at 11 and and Angela and and and and others talk a little bit about how Ken and the other board members have helped you navigate this but we have incredible bored very very lucky by the way I never really quite understood the value of a board into a crisis like this you need your bored in a crisis what times are good probably doesn't matter a lot I mean a really bad boy remember to get in the way board members are AR-10 or a -1 a 0 as like they're there they had no value to take away no value that's a zero and then a one is I think pretty obvious they they help you and then you got to be careful for the -1 even in good time they just can slow down they can steer the wrong way and never underestimate the power of somebody Whispering something in your ear you just might listen to it it just made the fact you so there's an old saying you're the average of the people you surround yourself with what you often are the average of the collective wisdom of the board and even if you have all the voting power
0:38:58 oldest be persuaded in conversation so you to be very thoughtful about adding people you're bored that share your values II that's also why for raising money for an adventure capitalist I would take a 10 to 20% valuation discount if you have to be early on to get a much better board member because you know what the wrong board members going to a road more than 10 or 10 to 20% of your value over the course of 10 years I think if they're really bad and so on and it is unfortunate Lot stores of that so I'm so it's really important you to have a board that shares values I ended up bringing on a handful board members for Independence I'm in addition to blend of a 3in I had two great venture capitalist one from Sequoia Pearl in one from Jason works at Jordan and then we added tensional he was CEO of my Express by the way unbelievable because he looks U2 crisis here an Amex through 911 and 2008 911 very close to travel 2008 financial services so we went through two crises we added and matter
0:39:58 CFO of Pixar under Steve Jobs with an auditor for Google Netflix so I knew this was somebody who knew how to invest in Innovation and lastly we had an Angela rent in Angela or ends with Co Beverly and then she ran all Apple retail all the retail stores in and I said you can't bring it's like a it's like a potluck you need to bring multiple things to this party you can't just bring one thing so kendrot like God knows a whole bunch public company CEO understands truck Amex is trust Dam if we had a lot of money they handle MX started as a kind of like at the start as kind of a Express company of shipping but they also were a travel company so they have huge history and travel Amex is very much about brand and we are very much about Brands so there's a lot I can drop the table even matter that the intersection of Art and Science she was CFO of Pixar how do you evaluate
0:40:58 the financial cost of creativity how do you know like you can't test your way towards every Pixar film young but financial analysis likes kind of historical data so she what she brought a lot There and Everywhere number of other things she brought like long-term thinking big bold that's think about Netflix think about Google think about the you like a POC OBEX they made and then Angela rents you know she beyond all the other things you would know of her she understands Fashions fans are creativity in a profound kind of way but also retail service Airbnb is a serve it as a service element people are greeting you in their home providing service through post you on experiences so it was really important when we built our board that I really thought about numerous killed but I also looked at my core values in my principal and I wanted to make sure I said as long as my board and I agree on principles will never truly disagree you know I'm saying like this agreement or disagreement over values and principles because
0:41:58 values is like a disagreement of which mountain to climb if we're both agreeing the kindest now and you can want to go that path I can go that path we both are probably in the same Mountain you got to make sure you do that the other thing with boards is most people I promised the boards mode I say either 90% of problems aboard our problems of lack of communication the more you can make it with somebody the stronger your relationship going to be almost always the less you can make a somebody that has less strong will be never wait for your board number to communicate with you if you hear from your board member it's usually cuz you're not giving enough so I try to have a piece of communication to every single board member almost every single week 4 years think about how much communication that is you don't just give me hear your bored at board meeting you never want your bored to learn anything at a board meeting I try to make sure that I have a relation with them and it in the way to use your board is it's like a relationship if you want to waste of somebody with you only talk to him every three months that wouldn't be much of a relationship they would but I buy the way.
0:42:58 help for the meeting so they need to have contacts and have contacts that deliver the problem like you do so that's the key and then you ask us to do I really not talk this person every week or two times a week and don't add people to board the only want to talk about every few weeks and this goes for investors because if you're starting out you don't get that always pick your board members as much but no one ever forces you to take money unless you got a gun to your head I guess that's tuition and so that's why a lot of pain you were trying to take the biggest valuation and I almost I don't not sure if we ever in the first 7 rounds the company we have Race 3 billion dollars I don't think we ever picked the highest price in any round every single round we left money on the table cuz he went with somebody that we just felt like was a better fit for us and we wouldn't take a lowest price but you know you don't squeeze out that last price now I know other entrepreneurs and I don't think it worked as well the only tried to squeeze money and they said money is money I remember people think money is are for that money money is money that matter what comes from and
0:43:58 it's a tall man that's right in the short-term you weren't wrong you just had a different time Horizon and by the way somebody who told me that is a very famous CEO who is now fired from his by his own board so I think that was a really unfortunate way to learn that lesson shiraev reminds me of a great honor that story we were talking the other day who was on his deathbed regretting who he put on his board. Because they all stood him and and you know it had built a company over the course of decades and then saw his board dismantle it so I think these are all instances of ways in which Founders and leaders more generally don't really think through the long-term societal ramifications as you said like a Verizon it's unless that somebody did the right thing or wrong thing and it's more time Horizon right like there are there are such a thing as ethics but it's not so black-and-white that someone just did something horrible and evil or somebody just
0:44:58 incredibly virtuous its most decisions in business or way greater than that and it tends to be a short-term decision divorce has a long-term decision and if you think about things over a long Horizon just imagining I mean one way to think about it is imagine the second or third or the consequences and just use your imagination and if you just extend your time Horizon and get Beyond living through today you kind of have a way of probably making a more sustainable and better decision and in any more of a right decision to attend the right thing to do tents by the way we tend to evaluate the right thing to do years later right so it's it's age it's time and so what we call the right thing is off in the long-term thing and by the way that's because we evaluate it through the prism of History which occurs over time the root cause of so many of the problems that afflict our world today not Justa pentamic but you know any quality climate lacassine ability diversity
0:45:58 you name it they have that even though the epidemic of social isolation you know if you've read a book like bowling alone you know that it sucks so clearly to me policymakers and leaders and corporations taking the short-term easy way out in up time and time again and I just I I find what you're saying to be like bracing but also and I'm a necessary corrective was we build these new institutions that are going to guide us in this new normal both companies and nonprofits and new government agencies are orange is now a social rebuilding phase what do you want to see later than to the foundation from up from those first principles what are the principles were the values you want to see these new organizations in body and just to clarify what you say when you organization so you mean like your company's or any of any kind institution like their startup there's like four prophets start up companies that are
0:46:58 there's also like startup agencies and start-up nonprofits and all all kind of institution they all have to start somewhere that's a really good question so I would make in every company
0:47:10 Justice idea of acknowledging that your company does not exist in the bubble not like this kind of you exist in the world and so you have to consider the world when you're building your company so I think like institutionalizing kind of that you have multiple stakeholders I like to say everyone has multiple stakeholders whether they choose our knowledge or not at the choice they have but they had to have them and by the way you will learn eventually awesome have the hard way that you have multiple folders in the same way that history will judge you and why the other people people often learn about their stakeholders the hard way like oh yeah that stakeholder exist when they are subpoenaed so so you see you got to you got to kind of learn ahead of time I hope another value
0:47:57 is that you exist to have a purpose and a mission not just to be successful and I like to ask entrepreneurs why do you deserve to exist why does your coming deserve to exist it's kind of hard to answer in the best generic answer I've ever heard to why I deserve to exist is because if I don't do it no one will because the answer to that is nothing won't happen but if I do it will happen to be something modest is not saying you're like changing the course of history but the alternative is if I don't do it someone else will know make money and that's the less idealized answer so you have to have like a real kind of purpose your purpose I like this exercise 1 Somebody once said people should care enough about your company that if your company had a death
0:48:42 that people choke to the eulogy the company and they have something meaningful to say and you can say about everyone in a can of the dramatization but if they get these are like as a lot of companies that fix that have been discontinued that you have that kind of feeling that cash I wish it did find a way to make it I really like when Virgin America was discontinued a lot of people really mourn did they really liked it and you can kind of go down the list of companies and their other companies that give a crap at all like whatever and so you really want to stand for something that means something I also would say I would build diversity in you know there's an old when I was Steve Jobs used to use the quote but I learned that one of the kids that played ice hockey Wayne Gretzky said My secret is I skate to where the puck is going not to where it's been and it's cuz it's because I talk every move so fast you can't get through the pockets at the skate to where you think will be what we should build our company's anticipating where it will be and where will be you should bacon things like diversity how diverse do you think the world would be in 10 years
0:49:42 build battle now get there earlier and I wish I'm not saying that like where they're like not a real struggle and every way in our community and our company and I wish we were further I wish I did more diversity Center again it gets harder as you get older age company should like over rotate on diversity it will make you more successful oh and by the way like a more diverse environment is going to be an environment as more tolerant of crazy ideas until you'll probably be more Innovative and it's going to be a safer place to have crazy ideas than a place that has maybe more homogeneous right it's not to blow more of a boiler room it's going to be a less creative environment it is going to be these are these are things that I feel fairly confident saying the best piece of advice I ever got was from Paul Graham he said it's better to have a hundred people love you than a million people that sort of like you build something people want build something people love if they love it they'll tell everyone else about it so
0:50:42 really important to only focus on the first hundred people and make sure that people love I mean maybe life maybe business is so simple maybe all business is if you build a product that people love built by built by employees that love the company maybe that's all it really is at the end of the day these two really basic ideas build something people truly love and that's what you should measure not like just retention adoption of heuristics that you think are indicators they really love it just be honest do they truly love it and I think that you know you need to have you know I think that is incredibly important how you do anything is how you do everything you know you know there's like he's like one of the famous business supposed to buy on a football coach and it's called the score takes care of itself basically do everything perfectly and you'll win don't worry about winning in fact the most winningest coaches John Wooden in basketball UCLA Bill Walsh process-oriented they were
0:51:42 John Wooden most most winningest college basketball coach in college history I I believe he said his secret was not to focus on winning but the focus on his players doing their best but he said here's the secret most parents when they tell their kids to do their best it's BS and it means they don't really believe in him its participation Trophies the secret is all you ever have to do is expect the best in you and expect the best of those who work for you that's it but here's the secret the secret is that you can't let yourself off the hook you have to know that you have untapped potential potential that no one has ever had the secret of leadership if I don't take the secret sound like a self-help book but here's what I say about leadership it's not secret but I'll say this leadership is believing in people who work for you more than they believe in themselves and home the standard they would hold himself because you believe and you see potential them they don't even see in themselves and by the way you can push people way outside our comfort zone and if you don't believe in them and you just grind them though he
0:52:42 but if you push them cuz you because they know you believe in them and they will give you permission to push them away outside their comfort zone I have watched you do that man it is maybe maybe sometimes I can be more grateful but we know about the hero's journey to go back to the thing I said before transformation is basically it's equation you have to step out of your comfort zone you have to adapt your comfort zone in adapting outside your comfort zone is growth that's what it is you don't learn and grow without stepping out of comfort zone II leader must push them outside their comfort zone and so I think you have to build potential into how you're hiring people and I think you need to think about the early employees as founding employees think I'm most most founding Floyd's cuz they're found in your culture with you and every time you hire someone asked do I want 10 people like them do I want hundred people like them because I might end up with people like them in the company there's no such thing as a high-class problem I caused problems are basically problem that happen when you're successful will widen problem
0:53:42 what year why would you not like plan for Success because otherwise you're like guaranteeing some mediocre midpoint so these are these are just some you know I think these are just some some of the the basic things in early days is never optimized for any one thing don't worry about winning argument or co-founder don't worry about winning a deal about people loving you and having a great reputation if you have a great reputation people trust you you'll win every deal in the future because people will give you the benefit of the doubt and if you try to like your take every last time off the table going to be one of those Founders where every year the job gets harder and you're suddenly it's like why is it everything getting harder will because people on trusting you as much but I'll tell you that it just seems harder every year I want to go back and take you back to the pendemic itself
0:54:32 covid-19 was declared a pandemic 9 weeks ago if you can believe it said how long does that feel I mean to me it feels like 9 years I have I envy the people who were bored I I can never been so busy in my life and end time has been at a time dilation effect has just been intense and I admit I must be even more intense for you if somebody wants told me I travel to make my life seem longer because I remember like I went on the school bus for 10 years I don't remember every school bus experience cuz I basically took an approximation of thousands experiences and I extract into a singular experience so isn't it odd that are physical environment doesn't change we don't really do that Newton any new things and yet it still seems like an eternity it's a very odd experience and I think I think what's happening is I think the world is going through like trauma I think if we're not careful we're going to collectively have like PTSD if we're not able to process it and I think we have to obviously be very careful about that I've been really bothering me that
0:55:32 having a hard time breathing for those we've lost collect ya Ali ya Zoom yeah. Is that's going to not going to leave a mark yeah you were the CEO of a travel company has a very moment while travel was brought to a complete standstill you know. That must have been forced you to make these hard decisions had you think through your decisions in the immediate wake of the pendant I guess I went back to those core principles and by the way sometimes you kind of form them like you don't mess it doesn't mean you can sit in a room and come up with them but just write down whatever you think is important that time if you can't think of other stuff that's fine but use that as a guideline and so the first thing I thought is like like we're going to be decisive this is going to be a defining moment I'm going to be completely present decisive clear thinking and just like almost own that as a Persona and again
0:56:32 then you kind of work on your list of like what am I actually prioritizing and the other thing in a crisis you have to have a lot to communication you have decisions are made very very quickly you can misunderstand things to step up your decision making the other thing I left out is optimism there's a lot of quotes about optimism I can't I won't be able to paraphrase them adequately but basically if you think you're screwed you kind of are screwed and if you think you're going to be okay you probably are at 8 to get it in this is less obvious and times a piece but in times of war and this is a very well understood thing in like generals right in battle the psychology of the leader becomes the psychology the organization it becomes contagious and so if the leader is hopeful and believe they can do it the organization assume that mentality and they believe they can do it they believe they can do it if you think you're smart you actually
0:57:32 inform higher if you think you're kind of person you will come up with more credit solutions because you're going to be resilient going to be pushing through the discomfort and you're going to keep going until one of the most important things I had to have wasn't unyielding unrelenting optimism through the darkest hours in the worse things get the more optimistic you have to be I'm not talking about blind optimism that is not anchored in any reality I'm talking about anchoring optimism in some cold hard facts to say I know it seems like a really bad but things are never quite as good as they seem as bad as they seem and I'm here to show you like the way out of this and I think that unrelenting optimism every step of the way it's really really hard as one of the hardest things to do to manage your own psychology have to be like her own psychologist or maybe you need people to support you and you need to surround yourself with people that give you energy during a crisis to the first one the first things I did was write down my principal and then I surround myself with people that I trust that gives me energy and keep my spirits up but also people that tell me the truth you can't
0:58:32 tell people to only tell you the truth and get your spirits down you can only have people get your spirits up without having the truth you need both of you have one of the other you're totally that you need both and you can't just have conflict cuz then your psychology beating down your in a loose hope then it's going to have a negative spiral on the organization so these are things you do and then you have momentum you communicate three times as much of the usual very frequent your visible I made a decision when this Crisis happen that I would do a Q&A the employees every single week and I would answer any question they had and this was controversial you know why because I knew that I would be getting questions every week like will we have layoffs and I would be really hard for me to answer and I would there's all these really hard questions you can answer I said I'd rather every single week look them in the eye or look them in the camera which is kind of the eye and it's a like I'm human I'm going to do my very best and if you trust me then it will be a lot better and no matter how hard I mean
0:59:32 examples of humanity like trust Love Like These are root words right this like it's hard to come up with words describe words like those these are the things businesses don't usually work like businesses are built on love and trust that kind of what it is we don't talk about it but actually like that's kind of the end of the day and I don't know why it sometimes it takes a crisis for us to learn the hard way
0:59:55 be forward looking for a moment you know travel obviously is not going to come back in the way that it was before there was going to be a new normal for travel and that's going to be very impactful for Airbnb in a scuba Trooper so many things in our society and we can't predict exactly what the future will be we don't know exactly what the new normal look like but what are some of the things that that are on your mind into what you think the long-term impact of this crisis will be
1:00:22 you know in that idea that there are decades nothing happened there weeks decades happen that's happened to travel I think what happened is travel with going through a transformation over the course of 30-40 years in 30 to 40 years just happened in 9 weeks and so now everything we know about travels going to be changed tourism come from the weird tour the work to war comes from this thing called the grand grand tour The Grand Tour is the is the is the the the the root of what we now know as modern Taurus and by the way just it just a little bit of lesson from here no more than welcome back to the future and I can go to more brought stuff we don't really invest in the markets not big enough actually turns out that the travel industry is larger than the oil industry it is 1 and 4 new jobs created every year before covid-19 dollars and gold
1:01:22 I would like a d trillion dollars so it depends on how you size it it's a massive industry and the and the tourism industry is mass tourism as we know it is weird in The Grand Tour The Grand Tour was basically created in this 16th 17th century 1600 it went to the late 1800s it was basically aristocratic mostly men in England that would go on a one or two-year Grant or throughout Europe and actually have a whole map they would go from Dan England down through northern Europe all the way down to France and they usually end up through Italy and in the branch where you would basically learn to become culture so you would study painting so you will go to Paris and you eat the food of Paris you might have friends even a romantic relationship and you would take painting classes in The Grand Tour this is why I think people go to ARC hours and they travel The Grand Tour which was painting lessons to become culture it became looking at paintings behind glass with a bunch of selfie sticks
1:02:22 around subject matter that most of us know nothing about we don't need a cultural significance of it so I don't know why so many Travelers would go to museums by the way I'm an artist and I said do not go to Art Museums you don't give a shit about are we don't do when your own City why do you do when you travel and like why are you you but I think the reason people into museums and landmarks is they care they wanted to get connected to the culture and I think I want to get connected to the culture don't look at the creations of dead people museums culture is alive through the people still there don't go to a monument understand the culture of those before you learn about the people that are around you right now and so I think that what's going to happen in travel is the era of mass tourism at least as we know it is now ending and they are of mass tourism is basically people going to Hotel districts 80% of the hotels are in one District hotels are on the way to the hotel District Times Square to Fisherman's Wharf on an ivory City's got them you know and then you eat at a multinational corporation like in a name or multinational corporation
1:03:22 then you go shopping by the way people spend when people spend money on travel in order they spend money on flights then accommodation then restaurants than shopping this is a big 4 and isn't it crazy that restaurants I mean they'll go eat local a lot of people eat a chain places when they travel and then they go shop at multinational corporation stores that at the same store in the cities they go to I think all that sending I think suddenly it's going to be more local more communal here's what's going to happen travel to become a more affordable we were born in the prices were back in a crisis of the recession travel got to be more affordable you're going to see a generational shift towards Jen's and Jen why so people under 35 and people under 25 and so new tectonic shifts in the economy often lead to the adoption of new audiences so think about like the 1920s the Jazz Age was very much adopted by young people these were modern movements in the Jazz Age was obviously you know enabled by prohibition
1:04:22 and prohibition meant that there was his creation this thing called the Speakeasy at Speakeasy with a place you kid Patron and get alcohol illegally you would underground what is speakeasies do to get people to come to their establishments that have live performances what kind of Life performance hop in the 20s jazz jazz game for New Orleans with the Chicago Inn in New York they were a hundred thousand Speakeasy supposedly according to one person that was at the time running about speakeasies in Manhattan at the time so just an example of like these pandemics these once in a drainage of things tend to lead to new Mass adoption and they tend to be from younger people the next thing is going to happen if people aren't going to Patron at Mega Metropolis is in the same rate that used to I think that we've lived in the era of of the city for the first time in human history last year a few years ago or more people live in a city in and out of the city and I think the mega Metropolis was emerging right Mega Metropolis is more than 10 million people and all over the world I think now we're going to have this thing called travel redistribution
1:05:22 people going to now travel to small towns the most small cities I think this is ultimately a good thing not overly concentrate one city are you still kind of joke Pittsburgh's the New Paris when you no longer travel to see a landmark you're traveling to see people all the people are interesting everywhere and so Pittsburg New Paris in like it's just like it sounds silly but like it's really every little town around use a new Paris cuz not everyone's going to Paris are going to the small towns around them so that's another thing so in a way in near is a new far and by the way the more your home doesn't down the street feel like further than I used to in the other side of City feel suddenly you're traveling again so that's a huge tectonic shift and I think that's going to change I think there's another fundamental shift that's going to happen and this is maybe the most profound shifter off I can just give you a really big prediction that transcends travel I'll give you one and I feel like because of the business I'm in I'm in Authority good authority to say this
1:06:14 I think suddenly people are realizing especially people than white collar jobs and more and more jobs can be done in an automated Way by a laptop that they can I think more more people are realizing that they can work from home that they can work and do meetings from Zoom right and so if that's true if you can work remotely then do you need to be in the same city that you are companies headquartered especially if your city happens to be one of the very expensive rent like San Francisco or New York or can you live somewhere else and so I think what's going to happen is the Mega Metropolis created really you know High housing price the prices and it was very very packed and then suddenly people realize they can earn the same amount of income in a lower-cost environment have more property and more space and people are going to realize they don't have to be tethered Twin City working from home can suddenly be working from any home in a location and then suddenly for always-connected digitally that means we can kind of live anywhere and so I think going to see a lot of people I think the one-year leases
1:07:14 it's going to go away the first month's rent last month's rent over and you're going to have a whole generation of people that can move and live around the world and we're going to be left Heather two cities the idea of community is going to be more like it's going to be it's going to change I'm not saying it's good or bad to just hang this seems obvious so these are some of the things are going to happen and I also think if suddenly everyone can work remotely then suddenly
1:07:37 the global work Outsourcing it's going to be profoundly greater actually if you think things were outsourced before and you were competing with global Tampa for even more so now that some of that you can theoretically hire anyone I mean they may be a different time zone they can be working from anywhere so I think almost every industry will be reshaped I think every I think these things will have a way of accelerating old technology so almost everything could be digitized all the offline business will become more online I think a lot of small businesses are going to get turned over there will be restaurants in the future will be a new generation restaurants will probably look different I think a lot of shopping is going to go away shopping It's Entertainment it doesn't mean all that will but I think people have to dump new forms of entertainment I think mega mega crowds and mega Metropolis is will be replaced by small intimate gatherings in a more distributed way these things happening but I also think the basics of human nature are going to endure I think that people are going to realize that like
1:08:37 belonging in love and Humanity in connection with my mother is going to matter more than ever because you start to realize how crazy you go without it and so I think that maybe we're going to see a dystopian Glimpse the Future Path we're on and realized that we don't want to be glued to our phones and we actually do want to get out of the real world and we do whenever a relationship so these are some things I mean my predictions are a little bit biased towards the world I'm in but you know if ya smell things I can give you those opinions as well and I don't know if there any better than anyone else is listening but that's there's some things I think what happened what do you hope other CEOs and leaders will do to help with the adamic and the relief efforts and to help us build a more fair and just world coming out of this be useful be compassionate I mean first be useful this crisis is not the responsibility of a government is not a responsibility of just healthcare workers and not the responsibility of some companies and some governments and some copies of some Industries I think it's a collective responsibility never even his
1:09:37 all 7 billion people and shared a common predicament, cause I think every single company can help in their own way I'm I'm sure they can and that's the first thing find a way to be useful in the evening your own modest way and the second thing is be compassionate you know it doesn't cost a lot to be compassionate and it matters that can be felt so much and it just kind of means like have a heart like over, say a little bit because these were really trying times and people are suffering and I think now more than ever don't you feel like we want people that are compassionate because there's just so much suffering and maybe we could have power it at 10 weeks ago we could have tolerated you know autocrats and that are just like demagogues and nativists in people spewing hate in people not caring and people being cold and calculating
1:10:37 that may have seemed like a logical 10 weeks ago and then suddenly I don't think that's what people want and Leadership anymore because people need leaders that care about others because they're suffering and they need someone to help them until suddenly I think the finishing of leadership is evolving you know and I think compassion and caring for others and having a heart it suddenly goes from this hippie-dippie thing to like an essential doesn't just feel suddenly essential when 35 million Americans don't have a job hunting too many people around the world people are dying and you know like anyone's any kind of responsibility whatsoever when they see someone suffer they have a choice and I think the choice of compassion will be the it will be the right one and it's not it's not that hard actually not that much harder back sometimes it's even easier it's almost more natural
1:11:32 so Brian where do you think we go from here how do we get out of the crisis well I don't know mean in a quote attributed to Winston Churchill he may never have said it but the quote I really love it if you're going through hell just keep going don't stop we have no choice we have to keep going we have to manage this way through this crisis and I I think that every single person should ask themselves how they can be useful and how can they can be helpful and I'm sure that everyone can in their own way too modest as it is so I think that's kind of number one if you have to keep going number 2 we have to be useful in over 3 I'd say
1:12:15 you know I think that we're going to have to
1:12:18 be really coordinated you know pandemics unfortunately a pandemic itself as a virus is very coordinated so that the responses uncoordinated it can be can be a substantial right and so it doesn't help if half the people do something other half don't so we're going to have to be really coordinated right doesn't it feel like more than any time in human history we're truly in this together we are at like at a very root level we are now more in this together are survivability requires us to be in this together and it is unfortunate that maybe that that this is a reminder that we had to have we needed a pandemic to realize that the other is not so other that person that other country who looks different sounds different or not so different that actually there's as basic common truth that people are 99% the same and you know a pandemic is revealing that doesn't it just become the great equalizer and so I think we need to remember that we're all in this together and
1:13:18 I think we need to stay off that Temptation you know a lot of Fascism and Nazism rose on the wake of the Spanish flu I think there's a real risk of division and anger and hostility you know our how are we respond to this are going to become divisive angry are we going to become a protest culture or we can actually be one that tries to heal people bringing them together I think that we collectively have a choice of how we're going to continue to respond to this and I hope that were a society that listens expertise that thinks we're all in this together that is not let you know that these are these are I think things that we need to do but greater minds than mine about matters such as this are going to have much better advice on how to navigate through this I will say that we're probably going to end up in dip in a if we're not already in a depression and economic Global depression that will be the worst when we seen since the 1930s and it's going to have Mark there going to be
1:14:18 for a decade you know we're going to feel this for such a long time think about how many jobs were lost in 9 weeks United States or 30 million some weeks 4 5 6 my jobs lost and that's just the economic damage so I so I think that's really important but I think the the opportunity on the other side is that we're living through a moment of great reset it took a great reset and if somebody is creative if they're not tripping or it's like I don't know if it has 0-0 game again for so many people and you can you can suddenly change things in a way that maybe you couldn't before and all I can think of is 30 million unemployed people as starting line potential entrepreneur if we give them the support and the resources that they need exactly and again not everyone is meant to be an entrepreneur in the classical sense and not everyone we don't provide our own opportunities completely so much as we think we do like you know we exist
1:15:18 and society that enables Us in so I mean maybe one other place we goes to just try to help one another if everyone tried to help one person and you know will be very very different and so I think that should be an era of not self-preservation but of
1:15:33 maybe maybe maybe the opposite right maybe an era where you care for others that that that that would be a really good thing this is like an Arab service right I always was like wondering like why doesn't our nation have like service anymore it doesn't mean we should all go to war when we all be better if like everyone to spend a year and service will suddenly the world is demanding service and we may not I'll take a year off to give back but we all can give our own way I think and I think the world actually needs it now more than ever
1:16:03 I want to thank you enough for taking time to have this conversation and course you know for the work that you've been doing and I know it's been a brutal a couple of months now this is unfolded but not during the boom times during the crisis you have been a consistent voice for a company is taking responsibility for their broader consequences. Taking care of their stakeholders their employees at bar community be an advocate for the notion that we all belong somewhere and you know I just all all clothes with the quote that you that you gave that I am writing to down underlining and I'm going to hear music again which is that businesses are built on love and Trust And if you take that seriously I think it's actually very radical radical statement for a CEO to make so I just want to thank you for referring that perspective and be really honest and vulnerable then I appreciate that I really think that's true
1:16:59 businesses in the end are built on love and trust and it could sound like a real kind of new agey thing in times of Peace but in times of War times of crisis when you're facing the best in your most harrowing of moment it suddenly feels like like a deeper truth and unfortunate that sometimes it takes a crisis to remind us at the most fundamental
1:17:25 needs must Panama things human nature businesses are built on love and Trust that's probably what I'll end
1:17:35 this has been out of the crisis on earth quake out of the crisis is produced by edited by Jacob tender and Sean Maguire music composed and performed by Cody Martin
1:17:52 for more information on the covid-19 crisis and ways you can help does it help with covid-19 com if you were working on a project related to the pandemic please reach out to me I'm b r i c r i e s on Twitter
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