gistfile1.irclog

[Friday, October 04, 2013] [01:00:51 PM] <matnel> sb: should we go trough Licences in one lab?
[Friday, October 04, 2013] [01:05:10 PM] <matnel> Mendeley group?
[Friday, October 04, 2013] [01:06:34 PM] <matnel> sb: I can help with setting up a mendeley group to the website
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[Friday, October 04, 2013] [01:24:46 PM] <sbenthall> matnel: that's interesting. I'm not sure what that tool is, but lets discuss it in the lab meeting next week as an option.
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[13:13] * sbenthall runs in panting, regains composure
[13:13] <matnel> StefanTian: so you mean that as an outsider you have hard time to figure out what's going on?
[13:13] <matnel> hello sbenthall :)
[13:13] <sbenthall> hey what's up
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[13:13] <sbenthall> don't let me interrupt if you're having a good conversation
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[13:13] <StefanTian> matnel: yeah, i did
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[13:13] <sbenthall> first item on the agenda is: project updates
[13:14] <StefanTian> the community is very fragmented
[13:14] <seemahari> Eating lunch and chilling with IRC on
[13:14] <sbenthall> what's going on?
[13:14] <StefanTian> luckily, i got the most info from their skype meetings
[13:14] <seemahari> This is a good class already
[13:14] <StefanTian> sbenthall: talking about breaking into my community(MIFOS)
[13:14] <sbenthall> cool
[13:14] <StefanTian> and how fragmented it is along with the mailing list being pretty dead
[13:14] <matnel> StefanTian: had a sort of similar experience, then I understand that I just need to push in
[13:14] <sbenthall> interesting. who regularly shows up in skype?
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[13:14] <prabha> which mailing list are you talking about?
[13:14] <matnel> StefanTian: so I decided to make an ugly stuff to commit pipeline
[13:14] <sbenthall> is there a formal organization (like a non-profit) backing MIfos?
[13:15] <StefanTian> usually the respective team leaders. I've hopped on a couple different teams before and its just the team leader and a couple critical people plus one or two sit ins like me
[13:15] <sbenthall> neat. are the meetings recorded?
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[13:15] <StefanTian> unfortunately, no but thats a great idea
[13:15] <StefanTian> the meeting notes are usually not done at all 
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[13:15] <matnel> sbenthall: sounds like... too organized :)
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[13:16] <sbenthall> yeah that's unusual for an open source project. open communications are typically key to project health.  maybe the lack of open communications is a reason for the fragmentation
[13:16] <sbenthall> i guess it's hard to judge cause and effect there
[13:16] <StefanTian> yeah plus i think it's cause contributors are immediately split up into teams
[13:16] <sbenthall> but maybe it's a feedback loop
[13:16] <StefanTian> each project has a "team"
[13:16] <sbenthall> oh ok. so it's more "managed" than "governed"?
[13:16] <StefanTian> yeah
[13:17] <StefanTian> it doesnt help that the meeting times are all at 2AM PST
[13:17] <sbenthall> hey, can you provide links to things to help us see what's going on? Like, do the different teams have different websites?
[13:17] <sbenthall> oh wo
[13:17] <sbenthall> w
[13:17] <icantfindanick> test
[13:17] <sbenthall> where are they based?
[13:17] <StefanTian> INdia
[13:17] <sbenthall> wild
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[13:17] <ajrenold> While we're on the topic of Mifos, are there any people being paid to manage or develop for the project? (Curious because I worked in microfinance before ISchool)
[13:17] <sbenthall> that's the first major open source project I've heard of based in India.  Are there any others?
[13:18] <matnel> btw, I tried to read trough and do a tiny synthesis on the first assigments http://si.mante.li/post/63490723370/joining-an-open-source-community-synthesis-and
[13:18] <StefanTian> its Microfinance so we're trying to connect with as many third world nations as possible
[13:18] <sbenthall> well, Hyde comes out of Chennai
[13:18] <sbenthall> I should correct htat
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[13:18] <StefanTian> https://mifosforge.jira.com/wiki/display/RES/Community+Teams
[13:18] <sbenthall> thanks matnel!
[13:18] <StefanTian> this is the teams page, as you can see its not very helpful
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[13:19] <StefanTian> only 2 teams have their meeting date listed and one just says "Thursday"
[13:19] <matnel> sbenthall: well, I don't know if that text actually makes sense :D
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[13:19] <sbenthall> later in the semester we'll be looking at "Coding Places", a book/thesis by I School graduate Yuri Takhteyev
[13:19] <sbenthall> http://codingplaces.net/
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[13:20] <matnel> but what I noticed was that rather many seem a bit unsure about the things, and tried to link that to previous work in sw
[13:20] <sbenthall> it's about the dynamics of working in an internationally distributed community, and about how it's different launching a project from different locations
[13:20] <ajrenold> @StefanTian do you know if people are paid to manage/develop for Mifos?
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[13:20] <StefanTian> ajrenold : I believe so......... however i'm not sure all the team leaders are paid
[13:20] <sbenthall> (it's based on Yuri's ethnographic work with open source developers in Brazil)
[13:21] <fchasen> I have a bit of an off topic question - does anyone know of a good way to find the first commit in a git repo?
[13:21] <fchasen> I tried going through the github commits like
[13:21] <fchasen> https://github.com/mozilla/pdf.js/commits/master?page=160
[13:21] <matnel> are you on mac?
[13:21] <fchasen> changing the page number till I hit the last
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[13:21] <ajrenold> Personally I find Mifos really interesting. I know from past experience that Microfinance organizations (even small ones) can pay upwards of six figures for bank software
[13:21] <fchasen> yep
[13:21] <Mitar> everybody: PeerLibrary has an IRC channel #rawpotato
[13:22] <sbenthall> that's a great segway... next item on the agenda is technical questions.  Though this is more of a mandated general hangout time rather than a meeting
[13:22] <sbenthall> anybody still struggling to get Pelican working locally?
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[13:22] <sbenthall> fchasen: I'm looking at the git docs now: https://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-log.html
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[13:23] <fchasen> looks like "git log -1" might work
[13:23] <matnel> also git log --all | tail
[13:24] <matnel> so take all logs and start looking from the bottom
[13:24] <elaine_sedenberg> I'm going to need help getting my post going. Seb do you want to help or should I go up to 202
[13:24] <reperry> yes, still struggling with pelican
[13:24] <elaine_sedenberg> (sorry i'm always the slow one in the class)
[13:24] <wazaahhh> Mitar : I see nothing going on on the #rawpotato
[13:24] <elaine_sedenberg> @reperry you and me both
[13:24] <reperry> I heard I should reinstall the mac dev tools that I deleted to create space on my comp 
[13:24] <reperry> doh
[13:24] <matnel> elaine_sedenberg: there's no reason to say sorry :)
[13:24] <pnguyen> is anyone running Pelican on a virtual machine as well?
[13:25] <Mitar> wazaahhh: yes :-) we rather work than talk :-)
[13:25] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg reperry : no problem what sort of problems are you having? Let's work it out here and if you need it, office hours are there
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[13:25] <reperry> join us up here, elaine_sedenberg!
[13:25] <sbenthall> but this is good practice in technical discussion within an IRC context
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[13:25] <wazaahhh> Mitar : I thought we could have finally our meeting on IRC
[13:25] <matnel> fchasen: and if you seriously want it, there ought to be visualization tools for just git logs
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[13:26] <sbenthall> like, if you have a problem, one good way of sharing it and asking for help is it copy the error message into a pastebin (like github gist) and then share it in the channel
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[13:26] <tomnar> haha i have a technical question too, but i dont want to interfer with allt he discussions here :p
[13:26] <Mitar> elaine_sedenberg: some of us are in 202, if anybody needs some help, come :-)
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[13:26] <sbenthall> this channel is for technical discussion!!
[13:26] <ajrenold> @elaine_sedenberg ill be around south hall until I finish my blog post (hopefully before 5) and can help you out
[13:26] <sbenthall> (also, shooting the breeze)
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[13:26] <icantfindanick> if anyone has successfully installed and used pelican on windows, please let me know.
[13:26] <matnel> tomnar: IRC chats usually have several discussions ongoing at the same time
[13:26] <prabha> I also can help if anyone has problem with installation on mac
[13:26] <StefanTian> yeah i'm having trouble with it on windows
[13:26] <StefanTian> i can't get the environment variable recognized
[13:27] <wazaahhh> fchasen, matnel : vizualization for Git is a great endeavour
[13:27] <elaine_sedenberg> haha, I'll try it first down here and then come say hi (or get help) if necessary  
[13:27] <elaine_sedenberg> OK, so, how do we convert to a markdown file?
[13:27] <wazaahhh> with some guys, we are trying to compose the "music of oss development"
[13:27] <sbenthall> fchasen: this is what I get with git log -1 https://gist.github.com/sbenthall/6891067
[13:27] <Mitar> ha ha
[13:27] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: convert from what?
[13:27] <elaine_sedenberg> I wrote in word
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[13:27] <fchasen> wazaah: in particular I was looking to visualize the time from the first commit to when the license file was added
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[13:28] <sbenthall> oh gosh
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[13:28] <Mitar> it is fun when i see people putting @ in front of names, this is not something people would normally do on IRC
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[13:28] <matnel> sbenthall: fchasen git log --all | tail
[13:28] <reperry> elaine_sedenberg: I've been using textwrangler to edit my markdown stuff. it's just an editor but lets you select from many languages to edit in (python, markdown, etc)
[13:28] <tomnar> well, i have installed pelican and it works (on windows boyaa!) and now i have pushed the changes to my fork, it seems like all the changes has been pushed (including all the output stuff) now i just want to make a pull request for the single file (the assignment file) but it seems like the pull requests always includes all the changes to my repo which is not what i want :(
[13:28] <matnel> Mitar: twitter-people most likely :)
[13:28] <Mitar> yes :-)
[13:28] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: how long is it? would it be a pain to convert by hand?
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[13:28] <ajrenold> @fchasen @wazaahhh @matnel I was thinking of making an IPython notebook with code to assess a git project. With the end goal of a notebook where some just needs to plug in their api key and a project they are interested in and it would generate the report
[13:28] <elaine_sedenberg> OK, i can copy into text wrangler or sublime
[13:28] <Mitar> i must say that it is an interesting addition and merging of cultures :-)
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[13:28] <sbenthall> ajrenold: that sounds awesome!
[13:28] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: perfect
[13:29] <elaine_sedenberg> @mitar this is why this class is awesome
[13:29] <matnel> Mitar: it is. twitter is sticky...
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[13:29] <sbenthall> :)
[13:29] <Mitar> should we use #hashtags as well?
[13:29] <matnel> Mitar: I've seen people to use @-notication in strange connections
[13:29] <Mitar> ah, those are recognized as channels here
[13:29] <sbenthall> hashtags are interpreted by IRC clients as links to channels
[13:29] <sbenthall> interesting history there
[13:29] <sbenthall> IRC predates Twitter
[13:29] <sbenthall> in IRC, #something is the channel to discuss something
[13:29] <Mitar> but it is interesting that @-name is reverse than what e-mails are, e-mails are name@ :-)
[13:30] <sbenthall> on twitter, #something is a kind of ad hoc discussion room for discussing something
[13:30] <matnel> ajrenold: have you checked #opensource if there's something related to #git already
[13:30] <ajrenold> @sbenthall ill see what i can do. No code written yet
[13:30] <sbenthall> a lot of people think that Twitter performs a function not unlike a global chatroom
[13:30] <matnel> ajrenold: or did you plan to pull stuff from githubs apis?
[13:30] <reperry> the problem I'm still having whether I use this route (http://docs.getpelican.com/en/latest/getting_started.html#fabric) or the lab instructions is that the "make" and "pelican" commands are not found. Maybe going to try reinstalling mac dev tools to see if it will work. 
[13:30] <sbenthall> ajrenold: I would totally use it and give you feedback if you made it
[13:30] <ajrenold> @matnel haven't researched this much yet. And yes use the github api
[13:30] <sbenthall> ajrenold: tell me when you have a github repo. I'll be a user
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[13:31] <sbenthall> reperry: ok did you install Pelican to your virtualenv?
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[13:31] <matnel> ajrenold: I would (personally) try to use more of local git repositories for that
[13:31] <ajrenold> @sbenthall ok
[13:31] <sbenthall> reperry: i.e. run pip install pelican while the virtualenv was activated?
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[13:31] <reperry> yes
[13:31] <matnel> are you btw coming to the movie evening today?
[13:32] <sbenthall> hmm.  reperry, what happens if you type 'which pelican' into the command line?
[13:32] <reperry> trying now
[13:32] <ajrenold> @matnel if you are suggesting that I don't share my api key, I agree. I'd make a settings file or something like that and not commit that to the repo :)
[13:32] <sbenthall> I've never seen the @-notation used for direct communication in IRC. that's cultural backformation IMO
[13:34] <reperry> sbenthall: nothing happens. just get my command line prompt again
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[13:34] <sbenthall> hmm.
[13:34] <reperry> it's cool. I'll work on it. 
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[13:35] <ajrenold> @matnel @sbenthall there is a ghost project about github repo health https://github.com/gorillamania/repo-health
[13:35] <wazaahhh> any other issue on community joining and communication ?
[13:35] <sbenthall> reperry: so remember when the virtualenv command wasn't working and so you looked at the shortcuts in the /bin directory to see what was going on?
[13:35] <prabha> let me come over and help
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[13:35] <reperry> y
[13:35] <matnel> ajrenold: open a folder where you have stuff in git
[13:35] <ajrenold> literally he has a readme and a domain and no code... wow never seen that before
[13:35] <sbenthall> I'd do the same thing here.  Except maybe look in the /bin directory of the virtual env itself
[13:36] <matnel> ajrenold: then write git log --all | grep "bug"
[13:36] <sbenthall> So when my virtualenv is activated and I do "which python", I get this:
[13:36] [Error] home/sb/Envs/dissertron/bin/pelican: Unknown command.
[13:36] <sbenthall> reperry: /home/sb/Envs/dissertron/bin/pelican
[13:36] <matnel> ajrenold: i.e. the stuff that's in githubs apis is also there locally :)
[13:36] <sbenthall> b/c my virtualenv is called 'dissertron' and in that directory
[13:36] <sbenthall> and when I do 'which pelican' I get this
[13:36] <ajrenold> @matnel gotcha
[13:36] <sbenthall> reperry: /home/sb/Envs/dissertron/bin/pelican
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[13:37] <sbenthall> so if you can go into the venv/bin on your machine and look what's there
[13:37] <sbenthall> that might tell you if you've got something like pelican in there
[13:37] <matnel> ajrenold: the benefit of this is that you're not that integrated to github which is only one (well, most hyped) git service provider :)
[13:37] <prabha> yayy, we could install pelican on her machine
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[13:37] <reperry> ok. thanks 
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[13:38] <prabha> use this : git clone https://github.com/sbenthall/dissertron-theme.git
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[13:39] <prabha> now: pelican-themes -i dissertron-theme/
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[13:40] <pnguyen> nice tutorial!
[13:40] <elaine_sedenberg> @sbenthall in the metadata, what do you want under tags and category?
[13:40] <sbenthall> ok elaine_sedenberg relevant links  http://docs.getpelican.com/en/latest/getting_started.html#file-metadata  http://courses.ischool.berkeley.edu/i290m-ocpp/site/article/assign2.html
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[13:41] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: oh, i didn't put those in there
[13:41] <sbenthall> my bad
[13:41] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: how about category is for the assignment, tag is for the project
[13:41] <icantfindanick> @Tom Quast: U der??
[13:41] <elaine_sedenberg> @sbenthall last sentence
[13:42] <elaine_sedenberg> @sbenthall that was my bad
[13:42] <matnel> btw. I've added a new folder content/images, seems to be the best way to include images to your posts
[13:42] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: ah, nice and buried. useful for everybody!
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[13:43] <ajrenold> @matnel good idea, I was trying to decide the best way to include images
[13:43] <matnel> (it's in a pull request for now.... hopefully merged soon)
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[13:43] <sbenthall> looks like people have been using the category 'assignments' for their assignments
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[13:43] <sbenthall> i guess we'll need to standardize this eventually
[13:43] <matnel> ajrenold: I tried first putting it under the content/assigment(n) but that didn't work out
[13:43] <sbenthall> which actually is another good segway
[13:43] <sbenthall> last item on the agenda is a heads up:
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[13:44] <elaine_sedenberg> @sbenthall if I f this up, just tell me to do it again
[13:44] <sbenthall> elaine_sedenberg: will do
[13:44] <sbenthall> this Friday, you'll be asked to pick out a governance model for the class research project
[13:44] <sbenthall> this will be the procedure that you'll be using to do things like standardize site organization and pull request procedures
[13:45] <sbenthall> for contributing to the collaborative publication we're doing as a class
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[13:45] <sbenthall> we'll have time to discuss this on Friday, but for those of you in lab, this is a chance to ask some preliminary questions, get some early thoughts out
[13:45] <pnguyen> is there any way that it could be a wiki?
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[13:46] <sbenthall> pnguyen: totally
[13:46] <pnguyen> nice!
[13:46] <sbenthall> that might be easier than editing the pelican site
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[13:46] <pnguyen> just because it's gotta build and stuff
[13:46] <sbenthall> i'd be disappointed but there's a logic to it
[13:46] <sbenthall> :)
[13:46] <pnguyen> haha
[13:46] <matnel> sbenthall: if we choose a linus kind of approach, will you swear on us over the mailing list?
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[13:46] <sbenthall> matnel: obviously, John, Thomas, and I have some dictatorial power.  Think of us as ISOC.
[13:47] <sbenthall> you are the IETF at this point.  If you like, you may appoint an IAB
[13:47] <sbenthall> matnel: I think there may be UC Berkeley guidelines against my swearing at my students.
[13:47] <sbenthall> otherwise, I would oblige
[13:47] <ajrenold> IETF = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Engineering_Task_Force
[13:48] <matnel> sbenthall: damn guidelines. this is not an authentic experience then :'< ;)
[13:48] <sbenthall> matnel: Look, once the class _ends_ anything goes
[13:48] <sbenthall> We are incubating at the moment
[13:48] <fchasen> Wait so if we are the IETF, are our draft assignments allowed to be 3 years late?
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[13:48] <matnel> more seriously, have you been using latex?
[13:48] <icantfindanick> does anyone knwo how to use fabric for "make" on windows??
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[13:49] <sbenthall> icantfindanick: i think tomnarhas had some success with it
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[13:49] <matnel> there's several things helpful there for writing more scientific things (like reference management, layout management)
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[13:49] <matnel> problem is that there's an initial investment of skills required
[13:50] <sbenthall> matnel: picking language is an important part of governance
[13:50] <sbenthall> I'm going to steer things towards the infrastructure we've been developing as a class but can be overruled
[13:50] <ajrenold> @icantfindanick you should go ask on their IRC channel #pelican
[13:50] <fchasen> One of the nice things about markdown  / pelican is that it lets you enter in whatever HTML you want
[13:50] <sbenthall> yeah that's a brilliant point ajrenold
[13:51] <sbenthall> here we are in IRC
[13:51] <sbenthall> we can go pester the experts now
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[13:51] <sbenthall> there are also scientific markdown extensions, and the fact that it is more natively published to the web means that for some it is more accessible
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[13:51] <Mitar> i hate markdown
[13:52] <Mitar> i hope it will never be used for science
[13:52] <sbenthall> for the purpose of conventional publication, there's going to be ways to convert markdown to latex to PDF...
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[13:52] <sbenthall> oh snap Mitar
[13:52] <matnel> sbenthall: do we have some publication forum already in mind for the report, or is the goal just to produce something and post-process it so that we get publication out of that?
[13:52] <matnel> sbenthall: there's an automatic convertor called pandoc
[13:52] <Mitar> we are 21st century, why we are still needing markup languages?
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[13:52] <sbenthall> Mitar: what do you propose instead?
[13:52] <Mitar> WYSWYG is way to go, much more accessible than any other
[13:52] <matnel> sbenthall: used a few times, works rather ok
[13:52] <ajrenold> @matnel also http://www.mathjax.org/
[13:53] <Mitar> direct visual input
[13:53] <Mitar> why would we need to help computers understanding our input?
[13:53] <fchasen> But that forces me to write in the browser or copy and paste into it
[13:53] <ajrenold> IPython is using mathjax
[13:53] <fchasen> right now i can use any text edit I choose
[13:53] <sbenthall> matnel: there are some conferences on CS education that are in this space, but more the post-process thinking. Or, we can talk about venues in the process of writing it
[13:53] <fchasen> or I can export from word as html and put that in if I wanted to
[13:54] <matnel> Mitar: I think they're trying to get wikipedia to use their wyswyg thing more to get peole editing there
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[13:54] <sbenthall> a lot of the time allocated to Labs for the class will be about discussing these things
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[13:54] <sbenthall> One thing, before I forget: The logs of this discussion are going to be posted on-line
[13:54] <Mitar> let computers figure out the input
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[13:55] <matnel> ajrenold: I'm not that worried about maths, more on refs
[13:55] <Mitar> check this video: http://vimeo.com/71278954
[13:55] <Mitar> it is really amazing!
[13:55] <Mitar> and see what all interactions we already had in past
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[13:55] <Mitar> and we are still stuck in this mindset of us helping computer
[13:55] <Mitar> instead of computers helping us
[13:55] <wazaahhh> ajrenold : could explain a little further your Python Notebook + Git thing ? Looks interesting
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[13:56] <fchasen> I guess i would argue that using markdown or html is about picking a suitable interchange format that lets us all use the tools we are most comfortable with
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[13:58] <ajrenold> @wazaahhh the idea would be to have an ipython notebook that connects to the github api using a specified key, runs a few queries and parses the result to create a 'repo health' metric or graphs. I can probably write a basic example today. It would also be interesting to answer the question 'What are good measures of repo/project health'
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[13:59] <matnel> the second question I'm also keen on.
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[13:59] <wazaahhh>  ajrenold : why is the Ipython notebook necessary there exactly ?
[13:59] <matnel> I noticed that in my project the top 10 coders have done 99% of the work
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[13:59] <wazaahhh> ajrenold, matnel : obvisouly the question 'What are good measures of repo/project health' is central
[13:59] <ajrenold> @wazaahhh easy to share and reproduce results by re-running the code
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[14:00] <wazaahhh> ajrenold : got it
[14:00] <sbenthall> OK, thanks for attending lab everyone.
[14:00] <sbenthall> I'm going upstairs to do office hours
[14:00] <fchasen> @ajrenold and @wazaahhh: For instance it makes it easy to embed and share a quick graph of the percentage of work done by the top 10% or show how many people have only 1 or 2 commits 
[14:00] <wazaahhh> sbenthall : cu in a minute
[14:00] <ajrenold> @wazaahhh check this out: https://amplab.cs.berkeley.edu/benchmark/
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[14:00] <ajrenold> that is a notebook
[14:01] <wazaahhh> ajrenold : this makes totally sense to me :)
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[14:01] <matnel> fchasen: I read a paper on online deliberation that focused on participation metrics