meco_reef.txt

[00:00.000 --> 00:15.760]  Hello and welcome to Managing Cut-Off. I'm Anthony Clangelo and I'm very excited about
[00:15.760 --> 00:19.460]  today's show. We will be sitting down and talking to Brent Sherwood at the Senior Vice
[00:19.460 --> 00:23.560]  President of Advanced Development Programs for Blue Origin. We're going to talk all about
[00:23.560 --> 00:27.960]  orbital reef, which is their space station project that they have underway. They are
[00:27.960 --> 00:32.560]  partnered with Sierra Space on the program and they have a bunch of other team members
[00:32.560 --> 00:37.760]  involved Boeing, Redwire, Genesis Engineering Solutions, Arizona State University, among
[00:37.760 --> 00:44.960]  others contributing to this. They previously won $130 million from NASA as part of the
[00:44.960 --> 00:51.560]  commercial Leo Destinations program to develop these free flying space station concepts.
[00:51.560 --> 00:56.480]  So they are in the mix alongside NanoRacks. We previously talked to Marshall Smith
[00:56.480 --> 01:01.960]  of NanoRacks about their space station called Starlab and Northrop Grumman is the other
[01:01.960 --> 01:05.840]  competitor in that program. This is for the free flying commercial space station programs
[01:05.840 --> 01:11.120]  that is in addition to axiom space who is working on modules that will initially be
[01:11.120 --> 01:16.680]  attached to ISS, eventually breaking away to be a free flying station of its own.
[01:16.680 --> 01:21.080]  So I am slowly working my way through all of those competitors. We've had I think three
[01:21.080 --> 01:25.680]  different shows with axiom on the podcast through their lifespan. We've had that one
[01:25.680 --> 01:31.040]  I mentioned with Marshall Smith about Starlab and today we'll be talking with Brent Sherwood
[01:31.040 --> 01:36.040]  once again. So we're going to dive into all sorts of stuff. The architecture and how
[01:36.040 --> 01:40.280]  they ended up at this architecture. It's been a long time in the making as you'll hear
[01:40.280 --> 01:44.360]  us talk about. We're also talking about the way that the partnership is structured among
[01:44.360 --> 01:47.920]  Sierra Space, Blue Origin and all the other team members. And then we're going to talk
[01:47.920 --> 01:52.080]  about the parts of the program that are specific to their contract with NASA and how that
[01:52.080 --> 01:58.280]  might differ from a purely commercial space station, not centered around an anchor customer
[01:58.280 --> 02:02.160]  this early on in the program. And then the most interesting parts I think is that we get
[02:02.160 --> 02:05.600]  to at the end is how their business strategy might play out in the near future where they're
[02:05.600 --> 02:10.920]  working on building modules for customers that might not have the space experience.
[02:10.920 --> 02:15.720]  But also talking about how they remain open to those that do have extensive space experience.
[02:15.720 --> 02:19.520]  So very cool conversation. I'm excited for you to hear it. So without further ado, let's
[02:19.520 --> 02:24.040]  talk to Brent. All right, we are here with Brent Sherwood, the Senior Vice President
[02:24.040 --> 02:30.480]  of the Advanced Development Programs at Blue Origin. We want to talk all about Oracle Reef
[02:30.480 --> 02:35.120]  today. But I think it might be cool to talk about the Advanced Development Programs part
[02:35.120 --> 02:39.040]  of your title exactly what that is, what that entails. And maybe if you can't tell us the
[02:39.040 --> 02:42.400]  projects are working on day to day, some of the projects in the past that that have been
[02:42.400 --> 02:45.680]  under that because I think it's a little bit mysterious of a title even though it's definitely
[02:45.680 --> 02:53.700]  a cool one. Sure. No, I can say a few things about our portfolio. So the way Blue
[02:53.700 --> 03:00.560]  Origins organize, we have four businesses. And essentially if it's not a rocket engine
[03:00.560 --> 03:07.120]  or a rocket, then it's an advanced development program. So the way to think about it is in
[03:07.120 --> 03:18.600]  space systems for our various product lines. And so we have flight programs in next gen
[03:18.600 --> 03:25.160]  space transportation, space mobility, space destinations, which is what we'll be talking
[03:25.160 --> 03:33.680]  about today and lunar permanence. And in addition, advanced technology projects and honeybee
[03:33.680 --> 03:39.600]  robotics reports into advanced development programs as well. Yeah, that's a recent change
[03:39.600 --> 03:43.600]  that I totally forgot about because it was so recent. And I haven't committed that to long-term
[03:43.600 --> 03:49.760]  memory yet. So I want to talk about the history of Oracle Reef and the architecture itself
[03:49.760 --> 03:54.160]  because I've got opened up here on my desktop. I've got a paper that I believe is from 1994
[03:54.160 --> 03:59.600]  called mixed use business park developments in space. And the fourth of five authors here is a man
[03:59.600 --> 04:03.920]  named Brent Sherwood. So I feel like you might have a little more longer history context of this
[04:03.920 --> 04:11.040]  than people might realize. Yeah, it's so this has been in the works for a very long time as you just
[04:11.040 --> 04:19.520]  noted. Fairly early in my career, I was a manufacturing engineer on the International Space Station.
[04:19.520 --> 04:25.040]  Actually before it was the ISS back when we called it space station freedom. And I was
[04:25.040 --> 04:31.600]  bowing at the time. So we were building the pressurized systems, the modules. And in that time,
[04:31.600 --> 04:37.280]  I led the team that figured out how to build the ship in the bottle, so to speak. So because you
[04:37.280 --> 04:44.480]  make a big pressur vessel and then you have to stuff it full of wiring and tubing and ducts and
[04:44.480 --> 04:50.400]  replaceable units and secondary structure and all that kind of stuff. And that's a hard challenge
[04:50.400 --> 04:56.240]  because it all goes in through the hatch opening and has to be installed to make a complete
[04:56.240 --> 05:03.920]  module system. So I've been thinking about space stations in general for many decades and then
[05:04.640 --> 05:14.640]  in manufacturing terms in a very intense way for a few years in the early 90s. That led me to be
[05:14.640 --> 05:22.720]  thinking about other uses for space stations than just research, which caused me to publish a
[05:22.720 --> 05:32.160]  paper in I think it was 1990 or 91 on commercial resort hotels in Earth orbit, which is the first
[05:32.160 --> 05:42.320]  modern paper about space hotel since Hilton's paper in the 70s. And in presenting that work,
[05:42.320 --> 05:47.760]  I got to meet some people who actually know things about developing commercial real estate.
[05:48.400 --> 05:54.560]  And that Chuck Lauer was the principal one among them. This is in the early 90s. And then that led
[05:54.560 --> 06:01.360]  to a small team of us developing the idea of a mixed-use space business park. And that's what
[06:01.360 --> 06:06.640]  you, that's the paper you said, one of one of them. We had a series of about three papers on the
[06:06.640 --> 06:13.600]  topic. And the idea is just very simply that the way we do mixed-use business parks on Earth
[06:14.720 --> 06:23.840]  has merit as a model for developing real estate in space. And that is that there's a separation
[06:24.480 --> 06:32.960]  of the business case of a user or a tenant, which could be a store or a factory or a researcher
[06:32.960 --> 06:39.600]  or some laboratory. That's the way it works on Earth today. A separation of their business cases
[06:39.600 --> 06:46.800]  from the business case of running the overall real estate enterprise. And that model works very
[06:46.800 --> 06:55.440]  well on Earth for a variety of reasons that have to do with regulatory issues and the spreading of
[06:55.440 --> 07:04.240]  risk across multiple companies that are in diverse industries. And so it occurred to us that that
[07:04.240 --> 07:11.040]  same business model might help us develop commercial real estate in space. That's where it all
[07:11.040 --> 07:16.560]  originated. And so the current iteration that we're looking at in orbital reef's term,
[07:18.000 --> 07:23.200]  I'm trying to get a sense for the positioning of it and NASA's commercial Leo destinations program
[07:23.200 --> 07:28.320]  that you're obviously a part of. The partnership that we're looking at, you know, the list is
[07:28.320 --> 07:33.040]  pretty long with the Blue Origin CR space, Boeing, Redwire, Genesis, Arizona State, I'm sure there's
[07:33.040 --> 07:38.800]  more that are not on that list yet that you're working with. But how did that partnership come about
[07:38.800 --> 07:42.560]  in relation to that program? Was it completely distinct from that? And then the NASA program came
[07:42.560 --> 07:47.040]  along at the right time? Or is this a partnership that's crafted around what NASA is looking at
[07:47.040 --> 07:55.040]  in the near future? Yeah, that's a great question. The answer is that we put this particular team
[07:55.040 --> 08:06.160]  together knowing last year that NASA was going to be embarking on what they called CLD or now CDFF,
[08:06.160 --> 08:12.800]  the commercial destination free flyer program. So we knew that was coming and our
[08:12.800 --> 08:20.720]  I'd call it sort of long term, but general thoughts about developing Leo kind of came to a
[08:20.720 --> 08:27.120]  head because of the timing of the NASA opportunity. So as usual, the government is a catalyst
[08:27.840 --> 08:34.720]  for business and represents kind of an anchor customer for a commercial station and that's the
[08:34.720 --> 08:44.320]  agency plan. So the timing was good to put the team together to really build out this vision of
[08:44.320 --> 08:52.960]  commercial real estate and to normalize and increase the amount of human activity in Leo,
[08:54.480 --> 09:02.080]  but also to propose that team and that architecture into the NASA opportunity. So it kind of
[09:02.080 --> 09:09.520]  all happened at the same time. And we were looking at a variety of what I'd call physical architecture
[09:09.520 --> 09:16.160]  concepts. I had an advanced concept team that had about eight of those approaches very,
[09:16.160 --> 09:21.920]  very different from each other. And the one that rose to the top is the one that we now call
[09:21.920 --> 09:29.600]  orbital reef, which is consistent with this mixed use business park vision because it implements
[09:29.600 --> 09:36.320]  an approach. It's sort of a, it's a business architecture as built in physical architecture,
[09:36.320 --> 09:45.600]  but it very thoughtfully divides the hardest parts from the easier parts. And it puts all the
[09:45.600 --> 09:52.800]  harder parts concentrated in infrastructure to make the easier parts, which are the applications
[09:52.800 --> 09:57.600]  modules for different users and different customer types to keep them as simple as possible.
[09:57.600 --> 10:05.840]  And part of our approach is that by doing that, we, we're good landlords, I'd say, in the sense
[10:05.840 --> 10:10.560]  that, you know, we're going to take care of all the infrastructure and the vehicle hosting and the
[10:10.560 --> 10:14.800]  power and thermal and, you know, telecom all the stuff out on the right day, that whole thing.
[10:14.800 --> 10:21.280]  Yeah, physical security, cyber security, you know, all those things. And then the customers are
[10:21.280 --> 10:29.120]  free to focus just on their business, again, in keeping with the terrestrial model. So we think
[10:29.120 --> 10:37.840]  that that will lower the bar to the maximum degree for a diverse set of customers to get into the
[10:37.840 --> 10:44.800]  game. And that's really what the objective is. It's, it's, as I said, to expand and normalize
[10:44.800 --> 10:47.200]  the types of human activity and low earth orbit.
[10:47.200 --> 10:52.560]  Now, in terms of the initial configuration, I understand you just made it through initial design
[10:52.560 --> 10:57.200]  review with NASA for, believe this is the initial component, which would be one of the core modules
[10:57.200 --> 11:02.480]  that Blue Origin's building, the life module from CR space and then the logistic module from Boeing.
[11:02.480 --> 11:07.120]  At least last I heard from y'all that was the initial configuration as envisioned. Is that still
[11:07.120 --> 11:14.800]  true? Um, so yeah, let me, let me, let me, uh, I won't say update. Let me, let me, let me correct you
[11:14.800 --> 11:20.480]  a little. Sorry, either one's good. So that's good. Yeah, the, um, so the baseline configuration,
[11:20.480 --> 11:28.320]  the one that people will see fly in the late 2020s has, um, a core module, um, and an energy and
[11:28.320 --> 11:33.280]  external energy system that's power in and thermal out and all the associated vehicle things,
[11:33.280 --> 11:38.800]  propulsion attitude control, all that, um, associated with the core module. And then the
[11:38.800 --> 11:45.120]  attack, the first two attached modules are the life module from Sierra, which is, you can think of it
[11:45.120 --> 11:53.120]  as the dormitory functions. Um, and then a research module, uh, which would be, uh, done by
[11:53.120 --> 11:59.760]  Boeing. And that's the microgravity laboratory, um, part of that NASA and its, its peer institutions
[11:59.760 --> 12:06.080]  require for, uh, conducting microgravity research. So that, that kind of gives you the essence of it.
[12:06.080 --> 12:12.640]  There's the infrastructure core and then there's a dormitory module and a laboratory module.
[12:12.640 --> 12:22.960]  That's the essence. Um, the, um, um, uh, uh, so yeah, each of the teammates has a distinct role,
[12:22.960 --> 12:30.320]  um, Boeing and Sierra and, and Blue Origin are the three primary transportation system providers.
[12:30.320 --> 12:37.600]  And then, uh, the rest of the set are for associated, uh, destination system elements, uh,
[12:37.600 --> 12:44.720]  and services. Now, would the initial baseline configuration, is that how you think that you would
[12:44.720 --> 12:49.280]  plan that out if you weren't involved in the NASA program or, uh, is there something specific about
[12:49.280 --> 12:59.520]  that configuration to NASA's requirements? Oh, um, yeah. So the, I guess I would, I would answer that
[12:59.520 --> 13:08.400]  this way. Think of the market in three big segments. Um, uh, and I'm going to give them to you
[13:08.400 --> 13:13.920]  in reverse order. So, so that we can, uh, uh, answer your question specifically. The third one
[13:13.920 --> 13:20.480]  is flying people, which starts with adventure travel and then progresses to tourism and eventually
[13:20.480 --> 13:28.720]  orbital living. The middle one, the second one is, uh, built up out of multiple industries,
[13:28.720 --> 13:34.240]  commercial industries, and enterprises, most of which have not really had an opportunity to,
[13:34.240 --> 13:41.840]  to operate in space so far. So that includes things like, um, entertainment industries,
[13:41.840 --> 13:50.720]  like sports, gaming, and so forth, um, advertising, marketing, but also, um, scaling up the
[13:50.720 --> 13:56.960]  production of industrial products that can only be made in space for use in the terrestrial economy.
[13:56.960 --> 14:04.880]  And so that one is, that one requires applied research, industrial research, um, and so forth.
[14:04.880 --> 14:10.320]  And it's associated with the different from the first market segment, the very first one,
[14:10.320 --> 14:17.200]  which is basic research. So the good news about that market, basic research is that, um,
[14:18.720 --> 14:24.560]  we understand how to do it. That's what's been being done on space station for decades. Um,
[14:24.560 --> 14:31.200]  it's a, it's a very stable market. It's predictable, uh, NASA and its peer agencies, uh,
[14:31.200 --> 14:37.680]  the, the ISS national laboratory, which has half the capacity on the ISS and the international
[14:37.680 --> 14:44.320]  agencies as well, all do basic research. Um, the bad news about that market is that it's very stable.
[14:45.200 --> 14:50.560]  It's, it's an auto market that's going to grow by a factor of five or 10 or, you know,
[14:50.560 --> 14:55.920]  it's the other two segments that are the, that have the upside potential that has folks excited.
[14:56.560 --> 15:01.360]  Um, and a lot of those customers don't even exist yet as customers.
[15:01.360 --> 15:09.360]  And so we're working with a diverse set of folks to develop what can be done and then to meet
[15:09.360 --> 15:15.440]  their needs. But that first market, um, the, the basic research market is well understood.
[15:15.440 --> 15:22.080]  And that's the one that NASA needs to make sure doesn't experience what they call a Leo gap,
[15:22.080 --> 15:29.040]  right? Between the end of the useful life of station and the beginning of, uh, a commercial
[15:29.040 --> 15:36.240]  substitution for it. Uh, we definitely don't want to have a gap in, um, United States presence
[15:36.240 --> 15:41.360]  in low Earth orbit the way we did when we retired the shuttle before the commercial transportation
[15:41.360 --> 15:47.200]  systems were online. So that's that gap is what we're trying to avoid. That drives NASA's timing
[15:47.200 --> 15:53.920]  and NASA's timing and turn drives our timing. So to answer your question, do I need a research lab
[15:53.920 --> 16:00.240]  on my space station? Well, primarily it's for NASA and its peers who are the, the customers of
[16:00.240 --> 16:09.280]  that for applied research, that's most likely a different type of optimized facility. That's more,
[16:09.280 --> 16:15.360]  you could think of it as industrial space rather than fundamental, you know, laboratory bench top
[16:15.360 --> 16:21.200]  kind of stuff, the way we do with microgravity research today. So, so that the existence of that
[16:21.200 --> 16:28.560]  research lab in our baseline configuration is directly traced to supporting NASA's needs, uh,
[16:28.560 --> 16:33.360]  without a Leo gap. Yeah. And I assume that's kind of similar on the, on the habitation side that
[16:33.360 --> 16:38.880]  it's scaled for the amount of crew time that that initial customer base, you know, is in vision
[16:38.880 --> 16:43.600]  to be of, however many astronauts for however much like the time, it's sort of scaled around
[16:43.600 --> 16:49.840]  that. No, that's a, that one's a little different. And the reason is that NASA's written
[16:52.000 --> 17:00.800]  requirements for microgravity research are fairly modest. Two crew continuously doing only research,
[17:00.800 --> 17:11.120]  not operations. Um, and, uh, an average of 200 experiments per year. So that's, um, uh, somewhat
[17:11.120 --> 17:18.000]  modest compared to today's use of the ISS and the way the ISS was designed. So for, for a laboratory,
[17:18.000 --> 17:24.720]  um, you know, you, you size it for that capacity plus what you expect the rest of the market
[17:24.720 --> 17:33.600]  to be. Um, and then on the, for the, for the other functions like, um, the dormitory functions
[17:33.600 --> 17:41.040]  and so forth, um, that's where you start to get these other markets, right? So if NASA wants to
[17:41.040 --> 17:48.320]  crew continuously, and then we need some operations crew for the station, we're designing for
[17:48.320 --> 17:54.720]  capacity significantly above that because we expect adventure travelers and tourists, uh, and other
[17:54.720 --> 17:59.600]  business travelers to be there, um, right with them in this mixed use kind of setting.
[18:00.640 --> 18:06.960]  Now in terms of, um, the interconnection between these three core modules and the way that
[18:06.960 --> 18:11.840]  each company is working on them internally, um, what is the coordination like between the partners
[18:11.840 --> 18:16.080]  right now when you're making a decision about, you know, something internal to your module or
[18:16.080 --> 18:22.000]  CR space is making trades internally to their solution are all of those reviewed by the whole set
[18:22.000 --> 18:26.240]  of partners. Does somebody have a final say over that things and what happens if those change with
[18:26.240 --> 18:35.360]  any module? Yeah. So, um, this is like any other large scale aerospace development program. Um,
[18:35.360 --> 18:43.360]  it's, um, the requirements are, um, we develop lower tier requirements from the top
[18:43.360 --> 18:51.520]  level requirements and, um, they're, so they're tiered. So if there are changes that a partner,
[18:51.520 --> 18:57.920]  uh, or a teammate, um, wants to or needs to make for an individual system, as long as the
[18:58.800 --> 19:06.240]  impacts of that change are contained within that system, then that's easy. But if the, if the impacts
[19:06.240 --> 19:12.640]  uh, modify the interface between that system and the rest of the vehicle, then that becomes a
[19:12.640 --> 19:20.560]  vehicle consideration and, um, the, the team weighs that together in a change board, uh, just
[19:20.560 --> 19:27.120]  just like any other, um, uh, space development program. Now it's kind of interesting of the,
[19:27.120 --> 19:31.520]  the way that this is set up, um, in terms of, you know, who's module's position where,
[19:31.520 --> 19:35.280]  you know, if, if you decided tomorrow, this project's not for us anymore and, and,
[19:35.280 --> 19:40.000]  you know, bounced, that seems to bring the whole situation down, right? Like, I don't know if
[19:40.000 --> 19:44.160]  the other two are going to be ready to step up and build that core module on the same timeline
[19:44.160 --> 19:48.160]  with the same functionality. The other two, you know, are, are maybe in a different situation where
[19:48.160 --> 19:54.400]  they are these, uh, use cases that are attached to the core module. So they're not handling
[19:54.400 --> 19:59.680]  some of the things that is, you know, the responsibility of the core module. So is there anything
[19:59.680 --> 20:05.360]  about the partnership structure that, uh, kind of references, which pieces are exchangeable,
[20:05.360 --> 20:10.720]  which pieces are interchangeable, which pieces are potential, um, schedule risks? How does all,
[20:10.720 --> 20:15.840]  how does all of that get managed in terms of whose responsibility that is to look at that risk?
[20:15.840 --> 20:24.720]  Yeah. Well, so the, um, the, the partners, uh, in orbital reef are blue origin and Sierra space,
[20:24.720 --> 20:32.880]  um, and the other teammates are teammates. Um, so the, the vehicle level program level decision
[20:32.880 --> 20:39.600]  making is by blue and Sierra. Um, and we, uh, like any good aerospace program, you know, we,
[20:39.600 --> 20:45.760]  we listen to all of our teammates and, and all the, uh, particularly, you know, they all,
[20:45.760 --> 20:50.640]  they each bring unique experience. And so nobody knows more about operating and maintaining a
[20:50.640 --> 20:58.320]  space station than Boeing. So if, you know, when I won't say if when the, um, our Boeing experts,
[20:58.320 --> 21:05.040]  uh, give us advice, um, in the design phase where we pay very close attention to that. That's,
[21:05.040 --> 21:10.000]  that's one of the reasons that they're on the team. You don't go, oh, what do you know? How long have
[21:10.000 --> 21:15.280]  you been flying a thing of things? Exactly. Um, with respect to, um, schedule, I would say the entire
[21:15.280 --> 21:20.720]  schedule is very aggressive. Um, you know, it took a long time to develop space station.
[21:21.600 --> 21:28.160]  Uh, a few reasons for that. One, you know, government program, second, uh, multiple governments,
[21:28.720 --> 21:34.560]  um, together. Third, it was the first time it had really been done, um, very different from Skylab
[21:34.560 --> 21:39.840]  or Mir or Salu, you know, it was a very different kind of space station. Now that all that's been
[21:39.840 --> 21:46.640]  done. And since this is a commercial development, we have the opportunity to go faster. And that's
[21:46.640 --> 21:54.400]  certainly our goal. Um, but the schedule is still very aggressive. Um, with respect to, uh, kind of,
[21:55.120 --> 22:01.840]  the risk of somebody changing their mind, um, I, I guess I would just say, um, we are in this
[22:01.840 --> 22:08.240]  for the long haul, you know, both Sierra space and Blue Origin have very long-term visions that
[22:08.240 --> 22:15.440]  involve sustained and expanded human space flight and operations. So, uh, there's, um, I just
[22:15.440 --> 22:21.440]  say that's not a consideration where we're committed to this and it's very nice to be partnered,
[22:23.120 --> 22:30.880]  uh, to have two companies partnered who are, um, more independent in their ability to
[22:30.880 --> 22:37.120]  maneuver than traditional government contractors. So, uh, we have a kind of flexibility,
[22:37.120 --> 22:43.200]  um, that a lot of other companies don't. And so that's, that makes us good partners because we
[22:43.200 --> 22:48.560]  can make decisions fast and move. One thing I'm really interested in, um, that I saw mentioned
[22:48.560 --> 22:52.800]  some of the original rollout of orbital reef was the idea that, um, and I think this was specific
[22:52.800 --> 22:58.240]  to Blue Origin that, that you would work with non-traditional space companies to build out modules for
[22:58.240 --> 23:03.360]  them and, and add them on to, you know, the business park and the future. Um, I didn't see a lot
[23:03.360 --> 23:06.800]  of info on that. So I'm interested to dive into that. What would it be like at number one, is that
[23:06.800 --> 23:10.960]  even the case is that the current plan that you would work with companies that don't have a
[23:10.960 --> 23:15.200]  space experience to build out modules for them? Um, if that is true, what would that experience
[23:15.200 --> 23:19.360]  be like if Ritz-Carlton came to you and said, we want to build, you know, really high on hotel,
[23:19.360 --> 23:26.800]  what would their interaction with Blue Bee? Um, yeah, it's a great question. Uh, and, uh, the,
[23:26.800 --> 23:35.360]  the types of enterprises that might ask that question, um, would certainly include hospitality,
[23:35.360 --> 23:41.520]  as you mentioned, but also industrial consortia, um, that have not done a lot of large-scale
[23:41.520 --> 23:52.480]  experimentation in space. Um, and also, uh, other nations. So, um, if you imagine a country that has
[23:52.480 --> 24:02.960]  a, uh, nascent space program, um, we would like orbital reef to provide, um, countries like that.
[24:02.960 --> 24:10.800]  And earlier, um, lower friction opportunity to have a footprint in space than they would otherwise
[24:10.800 --> 24:16.320]  possibly be able to have. And so that gets to your question of, of the kind of assistance.
[24:16.320 --> 24:24.000]  If someone comes in to be a, I'll call it a tenant of, of orbital reef, a participant in orbital
[24:24.000 --> 24:33.360]  reef, um, and has all of the requisite, um, capability to build a module and certify it, um,
[24:33.360 --> 24:38.320]  to our standards, you know, and attach it to our station, um, then that's fantastic, right?
[24:38.320 --> 24:43.840]  The, the business model there is, will lead support for some length of time.
[24:43.840 --> 24:49.680]  But if somebody, um, wants to be there and doesn't have all the requisite capacity,
[24:50.240 --> 24:56.400]  within our team, we have all of that. So we can, it's like you can dial in how much help you need
[24:56.880 --> 25:02.880]  in order to get your address on orbit. If you know a lot, great. If you don't know anything,
[25:02.880 --> 25:09.360]  that's okay too. Um, and, and again, so you can, this theme is consistent with what I mentioned
[25:09.360 --> 25:16.640]  earlier about kind of opening the aperture for the most diverse possible set of Leo customers.
[25:16.640 --> 25:24.240]  That's really, um, how we intend to change the economics of, uh, uh, uh, flying and using
[25:24.240 --> 25:28.880]  low Earth orbit. So that would be a boutique engagement where, you know, they might say we want to
[25:28.880 --> 25:33.760]  help designing everything from their pressure vessel to the interfaces inside or, uh, you know,
[25:33.760 --> 25:38.160]  just as much as, as they need integration help to figure out exactly how this system works,
[25:38.160 --> 25:42.720]  what they can rely on. It's, it's boutique and anything in that range is, is up for grabs.
[25:42.720 --> 25:48.160]  Yeah, it's, uh, you can dial it in. Um, so, so our, our approach, our business approach
[25:48.160 --> 25:54.160]  is what we call open vertical integration, which means, um, it's vertically integrated in the
[25:54.160 --> 26:04.880]  sense that across our team, we have the capabilities to develop and, uh, test and operate
[26:04.880 --> 26:12.480]  any aspect of this end to end service. So we, we have it all within the context of the team,
[26:12.480 --> 26:17.040]  but if somebody comes in and has their own, that's okay too. So just because it's vertically
[26:17.040 --> 26:21.600]  integrated doesn't mean it's a closed garden. It's, it's, it's open. And so yeah, we just
[26:21.600 --> 26:27.120]  have those discussions figure out where the right, uh, water line is really for the kind of help
[26:27.120 --> 26:31.680]  needed. Um, and then that would be the basis of the contractual arrangement.
[26:31.680 --> 26:36.880]  We have just a couple minutes left, but you mentioned end to end services. And I want to dive
[26:36.880 --> 26:41.520]  into that because, um, end to end services also includes the word transportation on, on the website,
[26:41.520 --> 26:47.680]  and some of the market material. Does that mean that, uh, orbital reef will be planning cargo and
[26:47.680 --> 26:52.400]  crew flights on particular schedules and, uh, those will be based around what kind of customer
[26:52.400 --> 26:56.960]  load you have. Some of the internal needs, like you mentioned, uh, the crew being, uh, a main part
[26:56.960 --> 27:03.360]  of that. How does that end end transportation idea actually manifest in, in like the flight program
[27:03.360 --> 27:08.240]  that you have around orbital reef? Um, so again, that's part of the open vertical integration,
[27:08.240 --> 27:15.840]  uh, nature of the structure of the team. Um, so, uh, New Glen, uh, is a very heavy lift, um,
[27:15.840 --> 27:23.840]  low Earth orbit, uh, vehicle, uh, optimize for low Earth orbit. And, um, with, uh, Boeing starliner
[27:23.840 --> 27:31.440]  and Sierra Space's Dream Chaser, now we have the, the, all the fundamental elements of transportation
[27:31.440 --> 27:38.320]  up and down, um, and, uh, within the context of the team. So we can optimize the service for
[27:38.320 --> 27:46.080]  our, our customers needs. Um, the NASA program, CLD or CDFF, um, mandates the provision of
[27:46.080 --> 27:52.720]  end to end services. So it's important to understand NASA is not trying to buy a space station.
[27:52.720 --> 27:58.720]  They're, they're what they want is, uh, Leo hosting services and that includes logistics,
[27:58.720 --> 28:05.760]  resupply crew transportation, all the ops and maintenance, all of that activity in a turnkey
[28:05.760 --> 28:12.240]  sort of a way, uh, which again is how it happens on Earth. Um, and so we're very excited to be able
[28:12.240 --> 28:20.320]  to, um, integrate those services, uh, our products and services in a way that, uh, maximizes
[28:20.320 --> 28:25.760]  cost effectiveness for the customers. Um, but that, but that's all done within the context of the
[28:25.760 --> 28:31.200]  orbital reef offering, you could say, right? So if, you know, axiom wanted to fly another private
[28:31.200 --> 28:35.040]  astronaut mission, but they're going to orbital reef this time, that, that architecture would
[28:35.040 --> 28:40.160]  be open to visitors that are outside of the end to end arrangement as well, designed to be open.
[28:40.160 --> 28:48.160]  Um, you know, there, there's, if we're going to get to a place where hundreds or thousands
[28:48.160 --> 28:55.600]  or millions, eventually, of people are living and working in space, we've got to go through a phase
[28:55.600 --> 29:02.880]  which, uh, kind of mushrooms, the activity in Earth orbit, a lot more of it, a lot more diverse
[29:02.880 --> 29:09.760]  types of activities. Um, and that's what NASA means when they use the phrase a robust ecosystem.
[29:09.760 --> 29:14.960]  So we're trying to build that ecosystem or at least build the infrastructure that allows that
[29:14.960 --> 29:22.080]  ecosystem to grow. Um, and I would say the more the merrier, that's, that's the way this business
[29:22.080 --> 29:27.200]  has to grow. Perfect place to end it. You stuck the landing with the tagline in there and all,
[29:27.200 --> 29:31.360]  uh, you're true professional. Brent, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a real
[29:31.360 --> 29:37.760]  pleasure chatting with you. Anthony, you're quite welcome. Thanks. Thanks again so much to Brent for
[29:37.760 --> 29:42.000]  coming on the show, talking with us at length about orbital reef. It's very cool projects,
[29:42.000 --> 29:46.960]  and, uh, the commercial Leo destination side of things is one I'm particularly excited about.
[29:46.960 --> 29:50.560]  So anytime we get a chance to talk to people actually working on these programs, especially
[29:50.560 --> 29:54.240]  someone that's been working on these concepts for almost as long as I've been alive,
[29:54.240 --> 30:00.480]  if not longer, uh, the way that Brent has is a very cool, uh, aspect as well. Now I could not do
[30:00.480 --> 30:05.600]  this kind of stuff without all of your support. This is a 100% listener supported show and, uh,
[30:05.600 --> 30:11.600]  it is my full time job. I quit my job last year to do this full time. And so it is all
[30:11.600 --> 30:16.240]  thanks to you. There are 828 of you supporting this show every single month at mainengine
[30:16.240 --> 30:21.600]  cutoff.com slash support. That includes 40 executive producers who made this episode possible.
[30:21.600 --> 30:26.400]  Thanks to Simon Lauren, Chris Pat, Matt George, Ryan Donald Lee, Chris Warren, Bob Russell,
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[30:40.560 --> 30:45.120]  Thank you all so much. If you want to help join that crew, if you want to get meeko headlines,
[30:45.120 --> 30:49.120]  which is an entire podcast I do every single week, separate from this one for the people that
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[30:57.120 --> 31:00.880]  possible. Once again, thank you all so much for your support. And with that, that's it.
[31:00.880 --> 31:04.240]  Well, all I've got for you this week, if you got any questions or thoughts, hit me up on Twitter at
[31:04.240 --> 31:17.200]  wehavemeeko or on email anthonyatmanagecutoff.com and until next time, I'll talk to you soon.