20150721-23@pydiversity

20150721-23@pydiversity

2015-07-20:CEST:11:13:24 [Users #pydiversity]
2015-07-20:CEST:11:13:24 [ __love__] [ cwarner] [ svaksha] [ treyhunner] [ willingc_] 
2015-07-20:CEST:11:13:24 -!- Irssi: #pydiversity: Total of 5 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
2015-07-20:CEST:11:13:25 -!- mode/#pydiversity [+o svaksha] by ChanServ
2015-07-20:CEST:11:14:14 -!- Channel #pydiversity created Mon Aug  4 20:45:27 2014
2015-07-20:CEST:11:16:25 -!- Irssi: Join to #pydiversity was synced in 212 secs
Day changed to 21 juil. 2015
2015-07-21:CEST:21:55:02 < __love__> kushal: ping
2015-07-21:CEST:21:55:12 < kushal> __love__, hello
2015-07-21:CEST:21:56:03 < kushal> __love__, How are you?
2015-07-21:CEST:21:56:24 < __love__> kushal: i am great! still tired from django girls this weekend but getting back into things
2015-07-21:CEST:21:57:00 < kushal> __love__, nice :) Just now read the post.
2015-07-21:CEST:21:57:30 < __love__> kushal: re: the design. i'm more than happy to share it but since i created it just for django girls, i want to hear back from them first about allowing outside prints. but i'm pretty sure it'll be available soon
2015-07-21:CEST:22:00:21 < kushal> __love__, I understand, only issue is to get one from US :)
2015-07-21:CEST:22:00:39 < kushal> __love__, there are a few small negative things about staying in India :)
2015-07-21:CEST:22:00:47 < __love__> kushal: i mean i'm cool w/ giving you the design once they decide what they want to do with it ;)
2015-07-21:CEST:22:00:52 < __love__> as in, you'll get it!
2015-07-21:CEST:22:01:00 < kushal> __love__, no problem :)
2015-07-21:CEST:22:01:17 < kushal> __love__, so someone apparently approached RH Pune to host a djangogirls workshop.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:01:19 < __love__> you going to get it in your size or for your daughter?
2015-07-21:CEST:22:01:36 < kushal> __love__, If possible for both+my wife :P
2015-07-21:CEST:22:02:03 < kushal> __love__, I am yet to find the details about the workshop though.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:02:11 < __love__> that would be awesome!
2015-07-21:CEST:22:02:16 < kushal> __love__, Yes
2015-07-21:CEST:22:02:22 < __love__> more django girls everywher
2015-07-21:CEST:22:02:58 < kushal> __love__, but my biggest concern in India is about the people trying to exclusive.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:03:14 < __love__> like it being only women or something else?
2015-07-21:CEST:22:03:55 < kushal> __love__, Only women is still okay where people do not say that the rest of the community is bad.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:04:42 < __love__> kushal: i'm not sure i'm understanding. it's ok if the workshop is women only so long as the women don't say there are toxic men?
2015-07-21:CEST:22:05:05 < kushal> __love__, as long as they don't say that everyone in India is toxic.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:05:22 < __love__> i see
2015-07-21:CEST:22:05:50 < __love__> i'm not sure i agree with that stance
2015-07-21:CEST:22:06:31 < kushal> __love__, that is only reason linuxchix India group was broken off many years back, few alleged other group admins as slaves of their husbands (where as they were CEO(s) of successfully running companies).
2015-07-21:CEST:22:07:17 < kushal> __love__, and that made the good people to move away from any such future initiative.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:10:13 < kushal> __love__,  but anyway, there are always good people
2015-07-21:CEST:22:10:29 < kushal> __love__, So I keep looking into the positive points :)
2015-07-21:CEST:22:10:58 < __love__> so people abandoned linuxchix india, and resist other women groups...i'm not sure i follow the "slaves of their husbands" bit. like, they were controlled by their husbands, not their own actions?
2015-07-21:CEST:22:12:04 < kushal> __love__, yup.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:12:44 < __love__> so...probably my US perspective...but if linuxchix india did good work, regardless of internal strife, wouldn't good people stick with it?
2015-07-21:CEST:22:13:04 < __love__> i mean, even if they admins were leading the group because their husbands wanted them to, isn't it still a positive thing?
2015-07-21:CEST:22:14:21 < kushal> __love__, yup, but most of the times people just do not want to keep fighting all of these non-issues, so they move away into doing other things.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:14:35 < __love__> i can understand that
2015-07-21:CEST:22:15:07 < __love__> kushal: you have https://djangogirls.org/mumbai/ coming up
2015-07-21:CEST:22:16:09 < kushal> NIce, let me look
2015-07-21:CEST:22:17:05 < kushal> Okay
2015-07-21:CEST:22:17:09 < kushal> in October :)
2015-07-21:CEST:22:17:25 < __love__> but you need more! you have a big country and a huge population!
2015-07-21:CEST:22:18:33 < kushal> Yeah, we will do more.
2015-07-21:CEST:22:20:56 < kushal> hehe, news just in, a close friend (from rh here) just now received a job offer, almost 300% increment (still in lower side of the new job salary) :D
2015-07-21:CEST:22:21:08 < __love__> nice!
2015-07-21:CEST:22:21:59 < __love__> kushal: looks like RH said yes to the hosting, btw https://djangogirls.org/pune/
2015-07-21:CEST:22:22:26 < __love__> i want to chat more about this but i gotta get some lunch. back in a bit
2015-07-21:CEST:22:22:29 < kushal> __love__, Yes, we are trying to help every community
2015-07-21:CEST:22:22:34 < kushal> __love__, Okay, i will be here
2015-07-21:CEST:22:22:40 < kushal> though it is almost 2 am :D
2015-07-21:CEST:22:23:30 < __love__> get some sleep! we can talk another time
2015-07-21:CEST:22:38:04 < __love__> kushal: btw, you're not suggesting that women in india need to police their language if they want support, are you?
2015-07-21:CEST:23:17:26 < kushal> __love__, Nope, I am suggesting that the *people* ( this case few known names) who keep suggesting that Indian men do not let the girls code, are bad influence.
2015-07-21:CEST:23:17:47 < __love__> hmm ok
2015-07-21:CEST:23:18:27 < kushal> __love__, many times we wanted to provide support, without any money or anything, but these few selected names make it difficult.
2015-07-21:CEST:23:18:38 < __love__> that's unfortunate
2015-07-21:CEST:23:18:59 < kushal> and then they go and keep shouting in the international channels/lists, where everyone jumps in without looking into the local case.
2015-07-21:CEST:23:19:43 < __love__> :sigh:
2015-07-21:CEST:23:23:15 < kushal> __love__, But we are still trying :)
2015-07-21:CEST:23:23:19 < kushal> That is the good part :)
2015-07-21:CEST:23:23:35 < __love__> that is a good part!
2015-07-21:CEST:23:24:23 < kushal> __love__, Funny that still how many people keep looking into me when I go around with the pyladies tshirts :)
2015-07-21:CEST:23:24:38 < __love__> lol
2015-07-21:CEST:23:31:33 -!- Gina is now known as Guest5827
2015-07-21:CEST:23:33:14 < kushal> __love__, Btw, have you seen this year's PyCon photos?
2015-07-21:CEST:23:33:32 < __love__> kushal: i saw some. not sure i saw all of the ones you took
2015-07-21:CEST:23:35:10 < kushal> __love__, https://www.flickr.com/photos/kushaldas/17290159122/in/album-72157649899111903/
2015-07-21:CEST:23:35:17 < kushal> https://www.flickr.com/photos/kushaldas/17290042562/in/album-72157649899111903/
2015-07-21:CEST:23:35:33 < kushal> https://www.flickr.com/photos/kushaldas/17084536887/in/album-72157649899111903/
2015-07-21:CEST:23:36:09 < __love__> nice
2015-07-21:CEST:23:36:13 < __love__> love that photo of ola
2015-07-21:CEST:23:37:06 < kushal> __love__, I do not remember her full name, can you please paste it here so that I can put it in the pic?
2015-07-21:CEST:23:37:17 < __love__> ola sitarska
2015-07-21:CEST:23:37:47 < kushal> __love__, https://www.flickr.com/photos/kushaldas/17290042562/in/album-72157649899111903/ correct?
2015-07-21:CEST:23:37:52 < kushal> Just want to confirm :)
2015-07-21:CEST:23:38:26 < __love__> yes
2015-07-21:CEST:23:38:51 < kushal> __love__, Okay, put up the link to https://djangogirls.org/ too
2015-07-21:CEST:23:39:25 < kushal> __love__, btw, we have http://jobs.redhat.com/jobs/descriptions/software-engineer-westford-massachusetts-job-1-5598288 this opening, in case you know someone :)
Day changed to 22 juil. 2015
Day changed to 23 juil. 2015
2015-07-23:CEST:16:49:49 [Users #pydiversity]
2015-07-23:CEST:16:49:49 [@svaksha] [ __love__] [ cwarner] [ treyhunner] [ willingc_] 
2015-07-23:CEST:16:49:49 -!- Irssi: #pydiversity: Total of 5 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
2015-07-23:CEST:17:06:57 <@svaksha> __love__, just read the scrollback reference to linuxchix by kushal - i really dont get what kushal was trying to imply here, and why the llnuxchix/indichix name was even being dragged into the mud. To clarify, he is not correct and is misrepresenting the truth as he sees fit - spreading false statements is dangerously unhelpful and causes more damage and hurts diversity. I've been involved in
2015-07-23:CEST:17:06:57 <@svaksha> that community since the beginning and the domain name was being proxy controlled by Atul Chitnis and his cronies (women were a part of that) and they were claiming credit for the work being done by others. THAT was what people objected to, not what Kushal claims. Fwiw, the list still exists, but is silent like a lot of other women-oriented lists in India. Most women will not speak publicly so
2015-07-23:CEST:17:06:57 <@svaksha> that does not mean one goes around spreading lies and defaming other women. I will repost this when Kushal returns, so please feel free to pass this message to him.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:08:28 <@svaksha> BTW, the list archives are public, so feel free to read them if you are curious. For the most part, _some_ Indian men want to control the outspoken women and silence them.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:10:46 <@svaksha> These few men (less now) in the local Foss community do this in various ways, but its harder to change oldset patriarchy overnight.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:15:46 [Users #pydiversity]
2015-07-23:CEST:17:15:46 [@svaksha] [ __love__] [ cwarner] [ kushal] [ treyhunner] [ willingc_] 
2015-07-23:CEST:17:15:46 -!- Irssi: #pydiversity: Total of 6 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
2015-07-23:CEST:17:33:43 <@svaksha> kushal: additionally, when you come into a channel meant to increase diversity but end-up badmouthing and spreading rumors and defaming other women (out of curiosity, am i one of them?) you are behaving in a sexist and misogynistic manner. This is 
terrible because you know very well how regressively sexist and misogynistic the Indian mindset is, so please see that you dont indulge in this
2015-07-23:CEST:17:33:43 <@svaksha> negative behaviour in a channel space whose goal is to improve diversity.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:39:08 < kushal> svaksha, I spoke what I think. I am working on to build a upstream developer community in India for more than a decade now. I just said what ever I saw. There are negative things everywhere, just trying to stay positive and working towards the goal: which is simply bring in many more upstream contributors from all parts of the society.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:39:53 < kushal> There can be people who will disagree, I am okay with that. It will not stop me working for the community.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:40:16 <@svaksha> kushal: so what was your goal in implying and dragging indichixwomen/men?
2015-07-23:CEST:17:40:50 < kushal> svaksha, as I said, I spoke what I think.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:41:08 < kushal> svaksha, and you said what you think.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:41:27 <@svaksha> kushal: dont make this about yourself - you made certain false accusations and when called out, you are being evasive.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:41:58 <@svaksha> this falls in the category of trolling and microagressive behaviour. 
2015-07-23:CEST:17:42:22 <@svaksha> not helping .
2015-07-23:CEST:17:43:21 < kushal> svaksha, seriously speaking, I never even heard about that word " microagressive behaviour".
2015-07-23:CEST:17:44:06 <@svaksha> FWIW, When someone wants credit for their work, they DONT need to defame others or spread false rumors about others. Relevant paper: [Insights into Sexism: Male Status and Performance Moderates Female-Directed Hostile and Amicable Behaviour](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0131613), Michael M. Kasumovic, Jeffrey H. Kuznekoff, PLOS, 2015/Jul/15. DOI:
2015-07-23:CEST:17:44:06 <@svaksha> 10.1371/journal.pone.0131613.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:44:32 <@svaksha> kushal: GF has an explanation iirc. 
2015-07-23:CEST:17:45:08 < kushal> svaksha, Also, when you said what you think, I just said that I am agreeing to disagreeing with you in this point. But that does not mean that I will be going to keep discussing that point.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:45:47 < kushal> svaksha, Thank for that link, I will read it.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:52:02 <@svaksha> kushal: No, you are just continuing to insist that I should ignore your false accusations and sexist misogyny towards un-named people in your convo. This is the exact behaviour that is harmful to the community, is politics and does not help increase diversity. Given your position within the community a newbie woman would feel intimidated to disagree with you and that is why I find you attitude
2015-07-23:CEST:17:52:02 <@svaksha> and behaviour very disturbing.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:53:16 <@svaksha> Given that you are a part of the PSF, you are in a position to silence opposing voices and that is something that happens a lot in India. This is why its more annoying to see a PSF member behaving thusly.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:53:44 < kushal> svaksha, PSF is an open organization, everyone is welcomed to join PSF.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:54:09 < kushal> svaksha, and being part of PSF does not give me any special power.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:56:18 <@svaksha> kushal: There you go again - unwilling to see the point (which I have repeated multiple times), being evasive and digressing. 
2015-07-23:CEST:17:56:54 < kushal> svaksha, Yes, I said that I am disagreeing.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:58:15 <@svaksha> But you have still not named these so-called "names" that you were defaming earlier. So what was your goal - care to explain that?
2015-07-23:CEST:17:58:54 < kushal> svaksha, my goal in that discussion with __love__ was about telling him what I think about few points, I spoke that.
2015-07-23:CEST:17:59:25 < kushal> svaksha, and you can see there I talked about staying positive and keep doing the good work.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:00:27 <@svaksha> If you are badmouthing women in a channel meant for diversity, i dread to think how things will be in other spaces. THIS is exactly why women stay away, or leave because of toxic attitudes in the local community
2015-07-23:CEST:18:02:00 <@svaksha> the __few__ men who do this are enough to set a bad example for others to follow. I hope you can see why what you did is not helping diversity, especially not Indian women.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:04:46 < kushal> svaksha, No I don't see that, I feel that we should keep learning from the past, and making sure that we help everyone in the same way. If just saying out what I think is bad, and not helping diversity, then everyone should stop talking right now.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:05:28 < kushal> Because that will be true for everyone else also.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:07:20 < kushal> will be back later at night, going for dinner.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:07:25 <@svaksha> kushal: the "free speech" flag is not a free pass for sexist misogyny, nor does not hold true for excusing it. You contradict yourself in your claim to "learn from the past". Clearly arent.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:15:22 < __love__> thanks for speaking up and adding more context to that discussion, svaksha
2015-07-23:CEST:18:18:02 [Users #pydiversity]
2015-07-23:CEST:18:18:02 [@svaksha ] [ cwarner] [ laceywill ] [ willingc_] 
2015-07-23:CEST:18:18:02 [ __love__] [ kushal ] [ treyhunner] 
2015-07-23:CEST:18:18:02 -!- Irssi: #pydiversity: Total of 7 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
2015-07-23:CEST:18:23:24 <@svaksha> __love__: anytime, I just found the whole thing disturbing - given that many of the women/men are not here to defend the false rumors, and the fact that Kushal insists on making accusations but wont come clean or be open about who he is refering to. That is not helping the convo, and indulging in backroom politics is definitely not nice.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:23:56 < __love__> yes, i agree, the conversation was a bit weird
2015-07-23:CEST:18:24:27 < __love__> i know, though, that india has a lot of interpersonal politics, along many lines, that i, as an american, just don't get
2015-07-23:CEST:18:24:33 < __love__> so i didn't want to assume too much or anything
2015-07-23:CEST:18:24:59 <@svaksha> nah, your reaction /reply to him was on track :)
2015-07-23:CEST:18:25:45 < __love__> thanks!
2015-07-23:CEST:18:27:14 <@svaksha> __love__: if you had believed his rumor-mongering or agreed with him, it would have been problematic
2015-07-23:CEST:18:27:17 -!- Irssi: #pydiversity: Total of 7 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
2015-07-23:CEST:18:28:32 <@svaksha> fwiw, you will meet many Indian men who do this, so I'm not surprised, just annoyed that the channel is being used for personal agendas and politics (silencing outspoken indian women in foss).
2015-07-23:CEST:18:29:32 <@svaksha> Its a shame that the Python community does not have a CoC or community standards to stop this sort of negativity which is harmful to diversity.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:30:02 < __love__> so, in the django world, our CoC extends to IRC channels and the like. does Python's not do that too?
2015-07-23:CEST:18:30:47 < kushal> back
2015-07-23:CEST:18:31:20 <@svaksha> Getting women to speak up and ask technical questions is hard enough ( I gave a talk today and the women would not speak up) so in such conversations they would be further silenced. Misrepresenting that to say they moved out is wrong.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:31:39 <@svaksha> __love__: nope, the PSF does not have one for non-conf spaces
2015-07-23:CEST:18:32:04 <@svaksha> Django and Julia are the only 2 that enforce it across all the online spaces
2015-07-23:CEST:18:32:06 < __love__> well that's something to fix
2015-07-23:CEST:18:32:37 <@svaksha> __love__: would be great if that can be fixed - happy to help if you need a voice of support :)
2015-07-23:CEST:18:33:05 [Users #pydiversity]
2015-07-23:CEST:18:33:05 [@svaksha ] [ cwarner] [ laceywill ] [ willingc_] 
2015-07-23:CEST:18:33:05 [ __love__] [ kushal ] [ treyhunner] 
2015-07-23:CEST:18:33:05 -!- Irssi: #pydiversity: Total of 7 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
2015-07-23:CEST:18:33:33 < kushal> __love__, asking generally, if I think something is/was bad, can I say that publicly in a Django channel?
2015-07-23:CEST:18:34:23 < __love__> kushal: well, i mean, free speech is free speech. you can, of course, express your opinion so long as it's expressed in a non-offensive manner
2015-07-23:CEST:18:34:40 < __love__> kushal: but, once that opinion is out there, if it causes problems, i'm sure that would be dealt with according to the CoC
2015-07-23:CEST:18:35:00 < kushal> __love__, understood.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:35:42 < __love__> all that said, i'm not involved in CoC-related matters so take my statements with a grain of salt
2015-07-23:CEST:18:35:49 < kushal> __love__, understood.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:36:42 <@svaksha> kushal: making accusations one is not willing to back up with data/proof falls in the category of defamation, worse in a community meant to increase a minority it hurts more than it helps. Free speech comes with responsibilities and limitations.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:38:06 < kushal> svaksha, there was a reason why people moved out in doing things, than keeping fighting over (in lists, or in personal threads).
2015-07-23:CEST:18:38:52 < kushal> svaksha, I just don't beginners in community and development, and see the brighter side of things.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:39:03 < kushal> * don't want
2015-07-23:CEST:18:39:31 < kushal> svaksha, I just don't want that the beginners in community and development see those negative effects, but see the brighter side of things.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:39:38 < kushal> Sorry for the typo.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:43:47 <@svaksha> kushal: if you mean your friend Atul Chitnis and his cronies taking credit for our work was acceptable and that all those men and women who spoke up publicly were wrong, then that is your personal opinion and btw, you were (still are) on that list so I am wondering why you didnt speak up in 2007/2008 in the list but choose to revive this so many years later, especially creepy because Chitnis is
2015-07-23:CEST:18:43:47 <@svaksha> no more. I am struggling hard and failing to see your good motive here. The whole thing smells really bad.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:44:48 <@svaksha> You were not even active on the list iirc, so using that as a metaphor to show you are doing good work now is quite meaningless.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:45:56 <@svaksha> As I said earlier, you dont need to degrade others to get credit and fame for your work. Work tends to speak for itself
2015-07-23:CEST:18:46:26 <@svaksha> And you dont need to degrade a minority in STEM to showcase your work.,
2015-07-23:CEST:18:47:22 <@svaksha> Women in Foss/STEM would be better off if men didnt try to step on our toes ALL the time and told us to STFU because we yell in pain.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:48:14 < kushal> svaksha, I agree in your last point, and also that work tends to speak for itself.
2015-07-23:CEST:18:54:59 <@svaksha> Fwiw, I (dis)agree with many people (women too), but its creepy and annoyingly sexist to badmouth them in a space meant to encourage them. NOT saying that its ok to do it in other spaces, rather that THIS is the sort of sexist misogyny that Indian women deal with daily, so if they speak up it does not mean they are "toxic women destroying Indian culture".