Debate: "Should Palestinians own the whole land"

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MOHAMED: Hello there, Mr. Greg?

GREG: Hey, how's it going?

MOHAMED: The adventurer.


GREG: Exactly. Hey from Brooklyn.

MOHAMED: Hey from Algeria.

MOHAMED: So, Mr. Greg, you are against my stance which is that the Israeli conflict, Israel and Palestinian conflict, there is one just way to resolve it which is to give the land back to the Palestinian because it is their land. Historically it is their land. So, I think you are against this stance.

GREG: Well, I don't think it's the only way to resolve the conflict. I really believe there's a serious situation. It's been going on since 1947 at least and even earlier. You know, first, we have to say who is Palestinian, because before 1947 both Jews and Arabs were called Palestinian, right? Live there, it was the mandate of Palestine and also it says the Palestinian should govern their whole land and the big question is what is the whole land? Does that include Tel Aviv? Does that include essentially what is now Israel before 1967? Why not? So, it needs to be defined what you mean by the question also.


MOHAMED: So, I mean historically if we go back in history both as you said. It's a good point. Both Jews and Palestinian were living in the land of what is called now the State of Israel. It was the Palestinian land. So, even the Jews who were there they consider themselves more Palestinian than Israel. So for example, you, do you know the, of course you know the Neturei Karta. I don't know if it's the exact name in--

GREG: Yeah, the Neturei Karta is a small group of orthodox Jews. I don't know how they are in their private life because I never went to their you know Sabbaths or anything. But they seem to be sincere people who believe that, you know, in fact Israel itself the whole thing, I think they're varying degrees of belief that maybe even the whole thing is occupation. Also, I will give you even more ammunition, okay? I will say that the the Agudath Israel, the original Rabbis, okay? The orthodox rabbis of the 1940's were against the secular state — for different reasons. They were against it because it was secular. It was not religious, and they said that they didn't want the non-religious Zionists, the secular Zionists to be building a state, kind of like Hamas doesn't want PLO. So, it was there's a lot of factions and a lot of groups there — but of course.

MOHAMED: So, yeah but actually if I understand from what you are saying do we agree that the Jews who were present there are more Palestinian than Israeli. They are Jews from ethnicity and race and Jews by religion but the Neturei Karta sees that the land is more to the Palestinian than the Israelis. So, the Jews who were present there, they would like to be a Palestinian state governed by a mostly a democratic state but not governed by Israeli. They even said that in the religion the Jew people aren't allowed to go back to the to that country.

GREG: So, Neturei Karta is a pretty small group and also within Jews you've different ideas especially ultra-orthodox Jews, okay? They are waiting for the Moschiach — the Messiah — to come. They all believe that in the end, the Jews will have the land. They all believe it, but the question is whether they have to wait for the Messiah or whether they are able to go up and to take the land or to live in the land, okay? All the Jews believe that they should be able to live in the land, all of them. In fact this is dream of the Jewish people to go back to Israel because look you know they lived in Israel. They were brought there by God. They believe that it is God's will that they live in Israel. So, I even say sometimes to people who are Anti-Zionist that you know what I don't agree with you but even if I give you everything you say about the Zionists, everything. You know that they are not going to expand and go take Iran, take India, you know, like Islam. Islam, they will take, they will go, and they will take they take as much--

MOHAMED: Expansionist religion, okay. I understand what you saying.

GREG: Jews only want this one piece of the world because they believe that God gave them this piece and that's it.

MOHAMED: Okay, no, I understand. I understand that this is in their religion they want it either now or when the Messiah comes but they have to the the subject that I want to raise is did they took it oppressively or not? Were they allowed to do that? For example, let's say for example, you live in a country and we we-we are a religious group and we see that Brooklyn, for example, we should occupy Brooklyn because it's in our religion when we go there. Are we a colonialist people like this or do you consider us just because it's in our religion  so we are allowed to do that?

GREG: First of all, I think that the vast vast majority of the Jews did not come and take Israel by force or by colonialism, just the same way that I, an immigrant, okay, my family's immigrants came to the United States, I have nothing to do with the Europeans driving Native Americans out of the lands into reservations, right? I have nothing to do with events that have happenedd 300 years ago. Most Jews  came after — and by the way they were running from Christians, murdering them in the Holocaust and after 1947 many of them were running from Arabs like in Egypt, okay? Who are also almost about to kill them or killing them, attacking them because of the creation of the State of Israel. So, most of the Jews that live there today, half of them are from Christian countries and half of them are from Arab countries, and they're called Mizrahi and Sephardi, okay? Mizrahi is from the east like Iraq,okay? And--

MOHAMED: Sephardic Jews.

GREG: Sephardic Jews and they are from Algeria also and Morocco and Egypt and Libya and Tunisia. And those Jews today, to be honest with you, all these countries have maybe like very few Jews. Syria has like maybe 100 Jews. Iraq has like 20 Jews.

MOHAMED: That we agree, we agree on that. Most of the Arab countries were very oppressive to the Jews. They, in my opinion, they-they shouldn't they it was not ethical to do that to expel the Jews from their territory because even in Algeria we do have this we have practically none not I've never met a Jew in Algeria and it's probably never going to happen, okay, we agree on that. But what you the parallel story that you mention it about your family coming to America as an immigrant and now you don't have anything to do with what your older generations have done. Okay, I'm with you on this. There is no problem between you and the the Native American but the problem is if you, for example, your generation continued to be oppressive to the Native American it will be also and still called a colonialism. So, for example, the Jew yes they came to - to Palestine, but then they became with larger and larger number they had a state and army, and they became oppressive. Do Do we agree that the Israeli government is kind of oppressive with the Palestinian. They take their land they it's an expansionist country, I mean. Do you agree with that?

GREG: When you say I mean it's “kind of” like it's very blurry. I think that there are all around the world all around the world there are disputes about land. Even in this country where I live, United States, Native Americans who live on reservations today, okay? I don't think it's so nice for many of them. Many of them were expelled like in the Trail of Tears, okay? This was I would say like the Nakba for you, okay? Maybe not for you. Are you Palestinian or not?

MOHAMED: About culturally I'm you can see I'm with the Palestinians. So, I understand. I understand.

GREG: You don't have like a grandfather who is from the Nakba, right?

MOHAMED: No.No.

GREG: Okay, today many people who are living in Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, other places. They don't have any citizenship, nothing. Let's say Lebanon, they are born in Lebanon, they grew their whole life up in Lebanon, their parents born in Lebanon, their parents grew up in Lebanon, why don't they have citizenship like they have in Canada, like they have you know refugees. My family also came like refugees, you know, status and were given citizenship. Why don't they have citizenship in Lebanon, in Syria. Because the Arab League, this is their official policy, never give them citizenship. If you have even one grandfather from the Nakba, you do not get citizenship in Lebanon. And this is a problem because like you said there are more and more and more people, okay? There are being born. I think this is a refugee problem. I think there should be a regional solution that includes Israel of course but Israel cannot take 10 million people and--

MOHAMED: Of course.

GREG: So, at this point, the other countries need to share responsibility. I'm gonna say one other thing ... in 1949 after the war, okay? After the war which I consider to be like a civil war.... And Arabs in Palestine, the UN recommended the partition, okay? Israel and land for Palestine. What happened was, then Jordan, it was called Transjordan, it came and it took the whole thing because its army was very powerful. It actually beat the Israeli army at that time and it took Jerusalem, okay? This is what Jews want the most, Jerusalem, right?  They were willing to give up, many religious Jews would be willing to give up Haifa, Tel Aviv everything just to have-- 

MOHAMED: Jerusalem. 

GREG: Okay, so they lost it. They had no access to Jerusalem, nothing and Jordan had all Jerusalem and what did Jordan do? Few things, first, it gave all the Palestinians citizenship, this is a good thing, okay? If anybody is watching this video you can look up the Jericho conference Jericho conference-- 

MOHAMED: Jericho conference, okay. 

GREG: Yes. It's very important to know in the history the Palestinian Hamullas, okay? The clans accepted that they will live under the king of Jordan, the Hashemite king, okay? Abdullah 

MOHAMED: Abdullah, yeah. 

GREG: And he was the king and then Transjordan became Jordan and because it was now on the both sides of the Jordan River. So, it got recognized by both the-- The United States recognized Israel and Jordan on the same day, February 1st 1949, same day. And it was the time the US praised it as a logical resolution. The Palestinians live in Jordan, now they got the whole Jordan, right? And Jews live on the small piece of land called Israel which has Tel Aviv, Haifa etc. This  was the case until 1967. What happened was, that — there were many things that happened, but one of the main things that happened is the Arab League which is in Cairo was very unhappy with Jordan. They threatened to kick them out of the Arab League for this, okay? And number two, we are talking about oppression the other way also when Jordan was controlling the area they made it much more Islamicized, okay? They destroyed all the synagogues in the Old City of Jerusalem and there were many Jews who lived there, they sent them away just like in the Nakba. They just expelled them to go, okay? They desecrated the tombstones in the Mount of Olives so when the the Jordanian government was in charge — and it's a pretty nice government! — but they had to also undertake Islamicization program to make it more Islamic, okay? And then they destroyed most of the Jewish culture that was there. So, I would say actually now, under Israel, there is much less. They are much more tolerant. You can-- Even on Jerusalem, they gave the keys back to the Al-Aqsa mosque right away. They said, here, we're not even going to go up there it's yours.

MOHAMED: Okay, I beg your pardon to interrupt you.

GREG: Sure. 

MOHAMED: So, the problem is sometimes I think that the Israeli government is more for example how you say the words you say they are more tolerant.

GREG: Yeah. 

 (This is the part btw which I was surprised he brought up and honestly argued....)


MOHAMED: But the problem is they are far more tolerant than the Muslims will accept. So, for example, the Israelis have, those last decades they have, for example, allow a gay pride which is maybe you are for that, but from our perspective, just try to understand our perspective, the Muslim perspective, we don't have actually this kind of thing in our religion in our culture especially in sacred places like the Jerusalem. So, the fact that the Israeli government is tolerant, somehow tolerant, let's just pursue your argument, doesn't mean that it will be a great thing for the Palestinian because it will never end if it continued like this. So, for example, if they are that tolerant to allow gay pride alone, for example, gay marriage on Jerusalem which is a very sacred place, this will constantly lead to more violence, more Hamas and the people from our country wanting to take Jerusalem back. So, don't you think that, because my argument is this, I don't think that it's logical neither rational neither ethical to say to all 10 million Jews to leave the land. No, they shouldn't leave there but the Palestine, it should be more kind of not secular state, not religious state also but something that that the that I'd say that there is more approximate to the Muslim because they were first. So, what do you say about this? 

GREG: Okay, wow! So many things! Let's go backwards. I disagree they were first because obviously, you should read in the Bible, right? The Jews were there first.

MOHAMED: No, excuse me. 

GREG: Yeah.

MOHAMED: The Bible isn't a very strong argument because we don't we cannot say argument from from from a religious belief let's be factual and rational. Say, there wasn't any religion.

GREG: So So let me address the other things and then we'll talk about this because it's a big topic. You don't have to use the Bible as a religious text. You can use it as a historical text, okay? And it's the Bible but all the records show that obviously, Jews lived in the land before the Romans expelled them. There was a period where the Babylonians took the land, okay? And then we're in exile. This was like 2500 2500 years ago and they were in they were set up with Shivaís and schools in Babylon, okay? But there's a lot of documentation obviously that the Jews come from Israel and there are generic studies but let me go back to what you were saying. I thought you made a mistake in the beginning because I thought you just said a wrong thing you said Israel is too tolerance that the Muslims will not like it. So, I thought wow, how can you be too tolerant, right? And then you explained, that you're saying that they tolerate the gay pride parade, for example. 

MOHAMED: As an example, yeah. 

GREG: Two things on that point. First of all, the Jerusalem is actually much bigger than it was in history, okay? So when you say that it is holy, you have to understand, there is the old Jerusalem, okay? Then there is the Ottoman Jerusalem with the wall and then there is a huge city around it, okay? This is a modern city. So what is holy? Is it though just the original Temple Mount? Is it the ottoman?

MOHAMED: The ottoman

GREG: Now you're saying everything is holy like you know so that's number one. Number two, you have to understand that this is what people in the West are saying. They're saying that if you have a Muslim majority culture, okay? Like in Saudi Arabia, okay? or like in anywhere, okay? Like in Pakistan, okay? You will have antagonism against gays. You will have antagonism against atheists, okay? Itís because it's in the Quran, okay? it says that sometimes in the Hadith it says you can even throw the gay person off of a high of a high you know place--

MOHAMED: I understand. It's not in the Hadith actually. It's just a lie and they've lied about the Prophet on this. It's not true. I mean the the ones who are really concerned about religious texts and they all know that it's not true.

GREG: Okay.

MOHAMED: I understand. I understand.

GREG: Okay, it's not true but you've said yourself that if we turn the government over to religious Muslims, okay? Who may be a majority. They may say, listen we are intolerant of gay pride parade and we're intolerant of gays and we want to make sure that gays don't have any sex because it's in it's also in the Jewish books to be, to be honest. So in that point, that the people in the West are saying look, so here is more people who will be oppressed now you're talking about gays, atheists and frankly also Christians if you see what happened in Bethlehem, okay? You say that the Palestinians are able to govern you know other Palestine. Some of the Palestinians are Christian why are they leaving Bethlehem. In 96 I was in Bethlehem. I was playing a concert, okay? I saw there's a lot of Christians and I hear that today there's like 90% of them have left. So, to be honest with you, there's also problem between the Muslims and the Christians even though they're Palestinians. So, this is also a problem. So, I would much rather trust the Israelis to be running this because they are more tolerant than than the Muslims yeah.

MOHAMED: Okay, actually, frankly, you made a good point but let me back to what you said that because historically they were there first because it was on the I don't know which era but don't you think that saying-- So, let's say, for example, you your ancestors are from Africa if you go back, trace back in history you your parent--

GREG: Yes. If biology is correct that's--  

MOHAMED: Okay, how many years or centuries will it be okay to not saying anymore that I am from that country. So, they traced all the way back to Congo or in Nigeria or somewhere in the Africa. So, can you say now that I am original from that land historically I was there first before, so, for example, I was there before the the Nigerian. No, I don't think so. So, Jewish people, maybe they were first at the beginning but now we are talking in the modern world when states became countries. There weren't any countries back in the time. So, countries which country were first? It's obviously the Palestinian. So, it's very recent. The The argument of the Jewish people we were there first because in 500 before Christ or 1000 year before Christ, we did this and that, I don't think it's-- 

GREG: Well, what I want to say you brought up who is first though. I'm you know I didn't bring it up but I think it's actually very important topic. Look, countries are a modern creation, okay? These kinds of states and many times they did it wrong. It used to be empires, okay? Like the Ottoman Empire and then with the you know the Sykes-Picot Agreement, right? And--

MOHAMED: Sykes-Picot, yes.

GREG: They were talking about this, okay? Because they did, okay? They did it wrong. French people France there was the Paris Peace Conference and France decided hey let's put Iraq and Syria one thing you know Iraq, Syria. Fryzel in charge of that, okay? He was a big Zionist by the way. He supported the Jewish Zionist movement to come back to Israel by the way and then you have the English who were given essentially a mandate, okay? Create one state in the land of Palestine. Now here's the back-story to that, okay? First of all, there was a you know there was a big guy who helped in World War I a Jewish guy I forgot his name I think it was a bomb maker or something. Anyway, so the English government said how can we help you? How can we reward you? he said something about you know can you give us you know the Land of Israel to settle and so, Lord Balfour of Balfour Declaration he wrote to I think the Rothschild or something and he said that this will be a land for the whole of the Jewish people without infringing on the rights of the people who are living there, okay? That was the the goal and the British people this go one thing I just want to say about that--

MOHAMED: Continue--

GREG: Lawrence of Arabia, if you watch the movie, okay? He fought with the the Hashemite. He had the Arabs like the Hashemite King and everything on his side and he promised them that hey if you guys help us defeat the Ottoman Turks, England will give you a land too, okay? So, back to England they said nope actually we're not gonna do that, okay? The English, they often would do these kinds of things in India and other things. So, what I see is this is geopolitics and in the end of the day Hashemite king you know he Abdullah he got the big land Jordan, okay? And he was also an ally of the Zionists of Golda Meir. They had secret meetings and everything. I can get into that. The point is these countries are created by European powers, okay? Syria is created. Iraq was created and it has Syria has Kurds, Syria has Alawites, Syria has has Sunnis, Syria has refugees from the Nakba the Palestinians from Yara Muk , okay? They had all these groups and of course now you-you send in the ISIS you send in a loser and suddenly there's a civil war. This is what happens these countries are varied they set up with these factions there are all kind of against each other, okay? In Lebanon, this is an older country out there are Maronite Christians, okay? You have the different the Sunnis and Shiites mostly Shiite this is Hezbollah started to defend against the Sunnis actually the Palestinians originally. My point is these countries so you say now-now this is actually creation that was very unstable and that's why you see a lot under fighting and the same thing in Israel the same thing it was because the Arabs just didn't want to live with the Jews. They didn't want to build one government with the Jews, Samuel Herbert, trying to build it, he failed. The mandate failed and that's why we have what we have today. So yeah we tried. An attempt was made and it failed. Thatís why we are what we have today 

MOHAMED: So, for so basically if you want to sum up your vision about the future because now we are going to the future of technology future of tolerance the future but it seems that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict it never ends. So what is your thought on how if you had some magical power or either not, how do you see the the resolution of the conflict?

GREG: I've been saying--

MOHAMED: What should do what?

GREG: I've been saying for years that I believe the most logical thing is for Jordan to give back the citizenship to the people since it revolted in 1988. Letís say the West Bank, okay? First of all, this idea that we can make one state that encompasses the West Bank and Gaza with a high-speed rail between them. I think it's a crazy idea and even BDS doesn't believe in this idea, okay? This two-state solution is, in my opinion, a fantasy of the international community and the international community has not had a good track record, okay? It has not has been a good at even preventing genocides of the Houthis or anything. Look at Libya. Libya has been completely decimated. Itís a failed state, right? Itís it's not too far from you.Libya?

MOHAMED:  They're our neighbours, yeah. Itís a tragic story to them, yeah. 

GREG: Would you go live in Libya today?

MOHAMED: No, impossible, yeah.

GREG: So, the international community, I don't trust them to create paradise on earth, okay? Or even is [Unrecognisible], okay? So, we need to trust the people on the ground. So, to me, it's simple, what do the people want the actual people, the hamula, the Palestinians, the Israeli public, okay? And Jordan. Okay, what we need to do in my opinion is Jordan needs to annex all the Arab cities I'm talking about Ramallah Nablus, okay?

MOHAMED: So

GREG: Yeah, go ahead.

MOHAMED: You're kind of saying you're kind of saying erasing the name of Palestinian. It would become Jordan. There will be no

GREG: Right, to me the the idea that there has to be a state of which the PLO the Palestinian Liberation Organization. It basically the sole representative of the Palestinian people. This is their claim that we are the sole representative no one else can represent the Palestinian people. This has been the problem not the solution. If they didn't exist, if the PLO didn't exist, the Palestinian people have would have long found, first of all, the refugees would have been accepted as citizens of Lebanon. This is in my opinion. Crazy that people who are born in Lebanon, their parents are born in Lebanon, they lived their whole lives in Lebanon, they're not considered Lebanese. They are considered Palestinian refugees because one grandfather happened to come from the Nakba, okay? So, my solution is number one, make sure this is a regional solution. It is the responsibility of Lebanon, Syria, they have their own problems right now but Egypt, Jordan, all of these countries to take refugees, okay? This is like we're doing with Syrian refugees. We're taking them in. We're giving them citizenship. That's number one. Then --

MOHAMED: Okay--

GREG: They could return but we cannot talk about a return if these other countries will not give them citizenship because they will all go back to Israel. Theyíll have no choice and that's not you know that that's never that's not a politically viable solution. Thatís number one. Number two, West Bank should be divided. The cities that our Arabs should be under Jordan like they were. They already were. They have passports and the settlements, okay? The the Israeli cities the Jewish cities should be under Israel. And Jordan and Israel have a peace agreement and so they can decide the water rights, the labor rights or anything else that would be don't you think a symmetric and very fair way to give people an actual passport, an actual state and resolving the problem once and for all?

MOHAMED: Okay? What about the Jerusalem which is the centerpiece of the whole conflict? Jerusalem. If If we follow your argument here, two-state not two-state solution the Jordan and Israel the Israel country, is that correct? No, what about the Jerusalem and it will be Jordanian state or--

GREG: Well, everybody Jerusalem-- In 1972 King Hussein, okay? I think it was King Hussein at the time. He proposed that we will make West Bank and Jordan into like a federation, okay? And but part of his proposal was Jordan will take all of Jerusalem, okay? So, of course, it was rejected by Israel and it was also rejected by the PLO for different reasons. Israel wouldn't give up Jerusalem and PLO did not want to give up the idea that they are the sole representative of the Palestinian people. I talked to some people in 96 they want both the Jordan and Israel, okay? They want both.

MOHAMED: Under which leadership? Under which government? 

GREG: Under Palestinian of course. 

MOHAMED: And that the Palestinian government the Jerusalem under the Jordan government you mean 

GREG: No, the Jordan government they want to remove the king and they want because Jordan is 80 per cent Palestinian already, right?

MOHAMED: No, if we follow what you have said about the solution the this solution that they give they will become Jordanian. The Jerusalem will be a part of Jordan is that what you're saying?