Debate: Should the Palestinians govern the whole land?

gistfile1.txt

MOHAMED: Hello there, Mr. Greg?

GREG: Hey, how's it going?

MOHAMED: The adventurer.


GREG: Exactly. Hey from Brooklyn.

MOHAMED: Hey from Algeria.

MOHAMED: So, Mr. Greg, you are against my stance which is that the Israeli conflict, Israel and Palestinian conflict, there is one just way to resolve it which is to give the land back to the Palestinian because it is their land. Historically it is their land. So, I think you are against this stance.

GREG: Well, I don't think it's the only way to resolve the conflict. I really believe there's a serious situation. It's been going on since 1947 at least and even earlier. You know, first, we have to say who is Palestinian, because before 1947 both Jews and Arabs were called Palestinian, right? Live there, it was the mandate of Palestine and also it says the Palestinian should govern their whole land and the big question is what is the whole land? Does that include Tel Aviv? Does that include essentially what is now Israel before 1967? Why not? So, it needs to be defined what you mean by the question also.


MOHAMED: So, I mean historically if we go back in history both as you said. It's a good point. Both Jews and Palestinian were living in the land of what is called now the State of Israel. It was the Palestinian land. So, even the Jews who were there they consider themselves more Palestinian than Israel. So for example, you, do you know the, of course you know the Neturei Karta. I don't know if it's the exact name in--

GREG: Yeah, the Neturei Karta is a small group of orthodox Jews. I don't know how they are in their private life because I never went to their you know Sabbaths or anything. But they seem to be sincere people who believe that, you know, in fact Israel itself the whole thing, I think they're varying degrees of belief that maybe even the whole thing is occupation. Also, I will give you even more ammunition, okay? I will say that the the Agunah, the original Rabbis, okay? The orthodox rabbis of the 1940's were against the secular state — for different reasons. They were against it because it was secular. It was not religious, and they said that they didn't want the non-religious Zionists, the secular Zionists to be building a state, kind of like Hamas doesn't want PLO. So, it was there's a lot of factions and a lot of groups there — but of course.

MOHAMED: So, yeah but actually if I understand from what you are saying do we agree that the Jews who were present there are more Palestinian than Israeli. They are Jews from ethnicity and race and Jews by religion but the Neturei Karta sees that the land is more to the Palestinian than the Israelis. So, the Jews who were present there, they would like to be a Palestinian state governed by a mostly a democratic state but not governed by Israeli. They even said that in the religion the Jew people aren't allowed to go back to the to that country.

GREG: So, Neturei Karta is a pretty small group and also within Jews you've different ideas especially ultra-orthodox Jews, okay? They are waiting for the Moschiach — the Messiah — to come. They all believe that in the end, the Jews will have the land. They all believe it, but the question is whether they have to wait for the Messiah or whether they are able to go up and to take the land or to live in the land, okay? All the Jews believe that they should be able to live in the land, all of them. In fact this is dream of the Jewish people to go back to Israel because look you know they lived in Israel. They were brought there by God. They believe that it is God's will that they live in Israel. So, I even say sometimes to people who are Anti-Zionist that you know what I don't agree with you but even if I give you everything you say about the Zionists, everything. You know that they are not going to expand and go take Iran, take India, you know, like Islam. Islam, they will take, they will go, and they will take they take as much--

MOHAMED: Expansionist religion, okay. I understand what you saying.

GREG: Jews only want this one piece of the world because they believe that God gave them this piece and that's it.

MOHAMED: Okay, no, I understand. I understand that this is in their religion they want it either now or when the Messiah comes but they have to the the subject that I want to raise is did they took it oppressively or not? Were they allowed to do that? For example, let's say for example, you live in a country and we we-we are a religious group and we see that Brooklyn, for example, we should occupy Brooklyn because it's in our religion when we go there. Are we a colonialist people like this or do you consider us just because it's in our religion  so we are allowed to do that?

GREG: First of all, I think that the vast vast majority of the Jews did not come and take Israel by force or by colonialism, just the same way that I, an immigrant, okay, my family's immigrants came to the United States, I have nothing to do with the Europeans driving Native Americans out of the lands into reservations, right? I have nothing to do with events that have happenedd 300 years ago. Most Jews  came after — and by the way they were running from Christians, murdering them in the Holocaust and after 1947 many of them were running from Arabs like in Egypt, okay? Who are also almost about to kill them or killing them, attacking them because of the creation of the State of Israel. So, most of the Jews that live there today, half of them are from Christian countries and half of them are from Arab countries, and they're called Mizrahi and Sephardi, okay? Mizrahi is from the east like Iraq,okay? And--

MOHAMED: Sephardic Jews.

GREG: Sephardic Jews and they are from Algeria also and Morocco and Egypt and Libya and Tunisia. And those Jews today, to be honest with you, all these countries have maybe like very few Jews. Syria has like maybe 100 Jews. Iraq has like 20 Jews.

MOHAMED: That we agree, we agree on that. Most of the Arab countries were very oppressive to the Jews. They, in my opinion, they-they shouldn't they it was not ethical to do that to expel the Jews from their territory because even in Algeria we do have this we have practically none not I've never met a Jew in Algeria and it's probably never going to happen, okay, we agree on that. But what you the parallel story that you mention it about your family coming to America as an immigrant and now you don't have anything to do with what your older generations have done. Okay, I'm with you on this. There is no problem between you and the the Native American but the problem is if you, for example, your generation continued to be oppressive to the Native American it will be also and still called a colonialism. So, for example, the Jew yes they came to - to Palestine, but then they became with larger and larger number they had a state and army, and they became oppressive. Do Do we agree that the Israeli government is kind of oppressive with the Palestinian. They take their land they it's an expansionist country, I mean. Do you agree with that?

GREG: When you say I mean it's “kind of” like it's very blurry. I think that there are all around the world all around the world there are disputes about land. Even in this country where I live, United States, Native Americans who live on reservations today, okay? I don't think it's so nice for many of them. Many of them were expelled like in the Trail of Tears, okay? This was I would say like the Nakba for you, okay? Maybe not for you. Are you Palestinian or not?

MOHAMED: About culturally I'm you can see I'm with the Palestinians. So, I understand. I understand.

GREG: You don't have like a grandfather who is from the Nakba, right?

MOHAMED: No.No.

GREG: Okay, today many people who are living in Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, other places. They don't have any citizenship, nothing. Let's say Lebanon, they are born in Lebanon, they grew their whole life up in Lebanon, their parents born in Lebanon, their parents grew up in Lebanon, why don't they have citizenship like they have in Canada, like they have you know refugees. My family also came like refugees, you know, status and were given citizenship. Why don't they have citizenship in Lebanon, in Syria. Because the Arab League, this is their official policy, never give them citizenship. If you have even one grandfather from the Nakba, you do not get citizenship in Lebanon. And this is a problem because like you said there are more and more and more people, okay? There are being born. I think this is a refugee problem. I think there should be a regional solution that includes Israel of course but Israel cannot take 10 million people and--

MOHAMED: Of course.

GREG: So, at this point, the other countries need to share responsibility. I'm gonna say one other thing ... in 1949 after the war, okay? After the war which I consider to be like a civil war.... And Arabs in Palestine, the UN recommended the partition, okay? Israel and land for Palestine. What happened was, then Jordan, it was called Transjordan, it came and it took the whole thing because its army was very powerful. It actually beat the Israeli army at that time and it took Jerusalem, okay? This is what Jews want the most, Jerusalem, right?  They were willing to give up, many religious Jews would be willing to give up Haifa, Tel Aviv everything just to have-- 

MOHAMED: Jerusalem. 

GREG: Okay, so they lost it. They had no access to Jerusalem, nothing and Jordan had all Jerusalem and what did Jordan do? Few things, first, it gave all the Palestinians citizenship, this is a good thing, okay? If anybody is watching this video you can look up the Jericho conference Jericho conference-- 

MOHAMED: Jericho conference, okay. 

GREG: Yes. It's very important to know in the history the Palestinian Hamullas, okay? The clans accepted that they will live under the king of Jordan, the Hashemite king, okay? Abdullah 

MOHAMED: Abdullah, yeah. 

GREG: And he was the king and then Transjordan became Jordan and because it was now on the both sides of the Jordan River. So, it got recognized by both the-- The United States recognized Israel and Jordan on the same day, February 1st 1949, same day. And it was the time the US praised it as a logical resolution. The Palestinians live in Jordan, now they got the whole Jordan, right? And Jews live on the small piece of land called Israel which has Tel Aviv, Haifa etc. This  was the case until 1967. What happened was, that — there were many things that happened, but one of the main things that happened is the Arab League which is in Cairo was very unhappy with Jordan. They threatened to kick them out of the Arab League for this, okay? And number two, we are talking about oppression the other way also when Jordan was controlling the area they made it much more Islamicized, okay? They destroyed all the synagogues in the Old City of Jerusalem and there were many Jews who lived there, they sent them away just like in the Nakba. They just expelled them to go, okay? They desecrated the tombstones in the Mount of Olives so when the the Jordanian government was in charge — and it's a pretty nice government! — but they had to also undertake Islamicization program to make it more Islamic, okay? And then they destroyed most of the Jewish culture that was there. So, I would say actually now, under Israel, there is much less. They are much more tolerant. You can-- Even on Jerusalem, they gave the keys back to the Al-Aqsa mosque right away. They said, here, we're not even going to go up there it's yours.

MOHAMED: Okay, I beg your pardon to interrupt you.

GREG: Sure. 

MOHAMED: So, the problem is sometimes I think that the Israeli government is more for example how you say the words you say they are more tolerant.

GREG: Yeah. 

 (This is the part btw which I was surprised he brought up and honestly argued....)
MOHAMED: No, if we follow what you have said about the solution the this solution that they give they will become Jordanian. The Jerusalem will be a part of Jordan is that what you're saying?

GREG: No, to be honest with you I have a solution to every other issue. There are five issues typically. One is the return of refugees. For this one, I have an easy solution. Make every country give citizenship to those people who are born in that country and then we can have a right of return no problem, okay? 

MOHAMED: Okay, this is fair. This is fair. 

GREG: Yeah the second one is and by the way, there should be a right of return for Jews to Egypt. I don't think they're gonna come back but just to be fair you know it should be there, okay? 

MOHAMED: No no no, it's fair. Itís fair. They should be there, yeah. Everyone who was born in in a country and feels that he is part of that country should be a citizen, should be given a citizenship. 

GREG: Number two, people move on you know Jews lived in Poland millions of Jews lived in Poland, okay? And when they try to come back after World War II, many Polish people did not let them into their house. They just said go or we'll kill you. This is after world war, after. So I'm telling you Jews did not cry for 80 years. Letís go back to Poland! Letís go back to Poland! They went and they were given citizenship in another country and now they're lawyers, they're doctors you know where this is-- 

MOHAMED: they're productive in the community, okay. 

GREG: Yeah so I have a solution for the refugees. Number two, I have a solution for West Bank. The solution is to take the cities that are Arab, give them to Jordanian citizenship ,everybody. Take Jewish cities and give them Israeli citizenship. No more crying about Israeli expansion and settlements. Let Jordan and Israel build settlements in this region. No problem, okay? Itís number two. Number three, I have a solution for Gaza. You want to hear the solution for Gaza? Itís different. 

MOHAMED: Okay, Go ahead.

GREG: Solution for Gaza is you need the international community to deal with Hamas, okay? not Israel. International community should say to Hamas, here is our roadmap, okay? tan tan tan tan tan including Arab countries and Russia, EU, UN, US they all come the quartet comes and says listen, you guys have fucked things up for people of Gaza. There are 2 million people living under you, okay? Thereís sanctions, there's a blockade, it's terrible. Our roadmap removes the blockade. Our roadmap completely makes Gaza into the Monaco of the Mediterranean, okay over there? Like Monaco, nice, beautiful, okay? Area with beaches maybe gas resources everything. But two conditions, one, get rid of all the weapons, no more guns, no more rockets, anybody who's building a rocket goes to jail, gets arrested, okay? Thatís number one. Number two, and this is like as long as there are no weapons and there is UN observers and everything, there's no weapons, I think that's fine. Now two things can happen, either Hamas says oh this is great! Gaza people can live free finally. Okay, we give up all the weapons. No problem. We stop and also we need the proper liberation of Palestine. PLF, we also need the Islamic Jihad, all of them, all of them need to lose the weapons or the second thing is they can say, no international community, screw you, I don't care, I just want to fight because I am a rebel. I need to have all of Palestine. So, in this case, the international community will stand of coalition force and disarm everybody. And it won't be in Israel anymore. I don't want to see Israel come in there. I want the international community to lift the blockade and to get rid of all the weapons. So that's my solution for Gaza 

MOHAMED: Okay. So, okay, another question about the the the settlement policy that Israel has conducting those last year since since its beginning the settlement policy. I want to know, just let me make it personal, how would you feel if for example you were living, this is your room,let's say perhaps it was in Palestine and then the Israel government comes and destroy your building and force you to leave because they want to build better or a more elaborated city, more bigger city for their country? How do you feel--

GREG: first--

MOHAMED: because--

GREG: You know I I can't really imagine because I'm not you know I don't really live there but I can tell you that similar things happen around the world. In my country in the United States, okay? There are many black communities which are told, listen we gotta tear down your building and build a highway or to help you know gentrify your or you can't afford to live there anymore. So that's one and we have a more integrated society than Arabs and Jews, okay? Thatís number one. Even in Israel. Number two, look at the pipelines. We have the Keystone pipeline that we run through the Native American lands, okay? A lot of people are protesting against that if you if you research the Keystone pipeline. Doesnít matter, United States government goes and builds it anyway. So, this happens all around the world, look at Bolsonaro, like you know it's pretty terrible, I'm not condoning this, I'm just saying it happens all over the world, it's not something unique to Israel, okay? Like Bolsonaro. This is the worst thing ever. He got elected president. Heís a very right-wing president in Brazil. He wants to destroy the rainforest. Heís openly said that he's going to take the indigenous tribes of the rainforest and he doesn't care, theyíre uncontacted tribes or whatever. Heís just going to steamroll them. Doesnít matter, there's no more safe haven but not an inch of the rainforest, he says will be safe for them. But these groups are the ones protecting the rainforest from logging and everything else and the rainforest produces 20% of the world's oxygen. So, 20% of the world's oxygen. Weíre talking about this is a very dangerous situation much more dangerous than what is happening ecologically much more dangerous what happening-- 

MOHAMED: Much more dangerous, yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. 

GREG: So, like to me that's more important to focus on. The reason we focus on Israel, in my opinion, is because Jews are very famous you know. Islam and Christianity is based on the Jewish religion and every time talking about all three books talking about this one land one land, okay?

MOHAMED:  Yeah. One land and yeah .

GREG: So, this is why. So, how do I feel? So, I feel honestly I'll tell you how I feel if I'm I think if I was smart and following history I would say the PLO had been the worst thing that has happened to my people. I could have been a citizen of Jordan. I could have had right now rights and I had a state in my in my back defending me. I could be a citizen of Israel, okay? I could have been a citizen of something else and now I'm stateless. I have no one to protect me. So, here comes Israel bills and settlement. How do I feel? I feel like I should get rid of the PLO as soon as I can and try--

MOHAMED: No, no, no, okay? Let me let me back up on this.

GREG: Yeah.

MOHAMED: You said about the Native American or for example, it happens in your country. The Bolsonaro example is similar to Israeli. I think if I was from the indigenous people I will see myself as subjugated and oppressed because Bolsonaro government is is very horrible. But you in the USA if they, for example, oblige you to move away from your house and they build a railroad or something, you will still be a citizen, an American citizen and you will have your rights and you your you are not going to be treated like a second-class citizen. In Palestine, the settlement, they just move away and just I'd say go on with your life, start a new life. So I don't think they are parallel or same thing 

GREG: First of all, most of the settlements are built in areas where it's just pretty empty, okay? Most settlements start by building houses in an empty area. If you look at the area of the West Bank, most of it is still open for development it's like not much there. So, it's not like they're taking the land, to be honest with you but but there are some exceptions. But I'm telling you that the same people the Palestinians, the same people in Lebanon, Syria and others are being kicked around. They live in refugee camps. Like my people, the Jewish people lived in ghettos in Europe. I actually think it's a bit obscene for the other countries to say listen, just because you are one grandfather as Palestinians, so you are a second-class citizen. You have no rights, you have no citizenship, you can't own property in Lebanon. You cannot hold many different positions. That changing now I think some of that. But for decades no rights no protections. This is what happens when you're stateless stateless. Whether you're Palestinian or whether-- look at what happened to Jews after the the Holocaust. Many of them were stateless also. It took a long time for countries to accept them. Thatís why they went to Israel. They had nothing else, they had no one else. Well it's a common thing it's a common thing and we need to take in refugees. I agree. But it's not just Israel. Everyone needs to do it not just the Israeli state in my opinion.

MOHAMED: Okay, it's I think we are running out of time. It was a pleasure to speak with you, Mr Greg.

GREG: You as well. You as well. I hope you know I just want to say Salaam and I hope there's peace everywhere.

MOHAMED: In Sha Allah. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr Greg, I've enjoyed it actually. Thank you very much 

GREG: I've enjoyed it as well.

MOHAMED: Let's-- thank you. Letís do it again and bye bye. 

GREG: Okay, bye-bye. Thank you.

MOHAMED: thank you.