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@Patbox
Last active July 1, 2024 19:54
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Why you shouldn't use cardboard, banner or any other "hybrid" server

By looking that you are here you most likely use Cardboard/Banner/some other weird bukkit + Fabric project (or just someone linked to it).

Don't do it, it will cause more harm/instabilities to your server than good. But let's start at the beginning.

Few definitions before we start:

  • Bukkit - It means bukkit, spigot, paper and any forks of these,
  • Cardboard - mod by IsaiahPatton that tries to port bukkit ecosystem to fabric.
  • Banner - another mod trying to make plugins work with Fabric, similar to Cardboard.
  • Fabric - a Minecraft modding platform, includes Fabric Loader and Fabric API, everything written in this gist also applies to Quilt.
  • Mods - Mods designed for fabric and compatible platforms
  • Plugins - Mods/plugins designed for bukkit/spigot/paper or their forks.

Why bukkit + Fabric will never work well

Mods being mods, they can modify game in substantial way. New blocks, items, mobs, etc. Possibilities are more or less endless as long as there is good enough programmer behind it. However, most mods still are kept compatible with each other, as they use tools designed for that (including Minecraft's internals, which allow for quite good compatibility) and having many gameplay mods is a norm.

Bukkit plugins on the other hand, while also normally compatible with each other, aren't really designed for custom blocks/items/etc. There are plugins that try to emulate mods with custom items/blocks/etc (for example Slimefun or ItemAdder), but they are mostly facade over vanilla items with some additional nbt. Because of that there are no issues most of the time (until other plugins don't try to use these items that is, as they see them as vanilla ones).

However, when you start mixing bukkit with fabric, bad things can easily happen. Fabric is close to Minecraft internal code (which has lots of nice and powerful stuff), while Bukkit is mostly an API which most of it's parts and design not being updated since 1.7. This means, you might need to make lots of conversions (with some not really possible without losing some functionality, for example messages in bukkit are just strings using legacy formatting, but mods use vanilla's more advanced json text for formatting). And if you start including things like non vanilla items, blocks and entities, it starts to break even more. Bukkit based server software is also known to break datapacks, which makes it even more likely to not work with mods (as a lot of them use and expend datapack funtionality).

Why Cardboard won't work

Cardboards approach is more or less taking bukkit code and hitting it with a hammer until it starts to barely works. It uses lots of hacks, code overriding entire methods in Minecraft (breaks lots of mods mixing into them!) and breaking vanilla behaviour. It's also questionable license wise, as GPL isn't really compatible with Minecraft code (and for this reason spigot and others use workarounds to bypass it). Additionally, it needs to modify some plugin on runtime to make them work, which only shows how bukkit wasn't designed for that usage. This mod will never be in a state stable enough to work with more advanced plugins while also not causing other mods to break or straight up crash. Most of the time developers of incompatible mods and plugins won't support it anyway as these mixed environments were always hacky and problematic, so it's safer and stabler to just use fabric alternatives.

Why Mohist/Banner won't work

In similar way of cardboard, to support bukkit api and plugins using it, it needs to make a lot of invalive changes to make things work. Which will also break a lot of mods (and plugins). It also is known to modify/swap plugins to make them work, so it's not even doing it's job properly (see https://essentialsx.net/do-not-use-mohist.html)

Why bukkit based software shouldn't really be around anymore

This is more of my own opinion (through it's shared by many), that bukkit based plugins and servers should be thing of the past. Bukkit (or Spigot and Paper) never fully adapted to modern Minecraft, as their goal of forever backwards compatibility limited how they could evolve. Bukkit was originally created for early Minecraft Betas and it's api was kept mostly the same. It was extended with new functionality, but it never fully adapted to modern versions. Lack of nbt api's, lack of support for datapacks as parts of plugins (which both non-bukkit platforms have supported for long time), it limits what could be done with server mods. Nearly all plugins that do something more advanced, require usage of non-bukkit Vanilla classes, either via another library or own code (and a lot of reflections and jvm hacks). For bigger servers that want to extend gameplay in their own ways, it's more common to just fork Bukkit/Spigot/Paper instead and add things in same ways as modders do.

OK, what should I do?

You should check out this list of server side fabric/quilt mods. There is lots of alternatives to pick, with even more being actively created!

If you are create mods or plugins you are also free to ask me about anything related, as I'm always happy to help people expand Fabirc/Quilt server side ecosystem :)

You should also checkout these server side communities:

Or modded ones in general:

@Elias-Lindholm
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hello! Patbox i wish to use cardboard and your mod, is there any way of solving this? as forcing server owners to not use cardboard or your mods isent quite nice.

@Patbox
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Patbox commented Jun 11, 2024

My mods only have warnings for it, but they do crash due to how invasive/badly written cardboard is. If you want stable server you shouldn't use cardboard at all (if you need plugins, just use bukkit or alike, if you need mods, only use mods)

@funnycubeguy
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The lack of server side mods is hilarious. There are far more servers running spigot/paper for this reason, and the amount of performance + cross compatibility between bedrock or older version of minecraft make modded servers look outdated. Which they are - modded minecraft is the least stable and largest performance hog. This entire post is pointless.

@Patbox
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Patbox commented Jun 29, 2024

The lack of server side mods is hilarious. There are far more servers running spigot/paper for this reason, and the amount of performance + cross compatibility between bedrock or older version of minecraft make modded servers look outdated. Which they are - modded minecraft is the least stable and largest performance hog. This entire post is pointless.

There are more server running in bukkit ecosystem because it is larger and way older than fabric (bukkit launched in early beta). You can improve performance a lot by installing few optimalization mods, which can get it close if not better than what you get on paper (with generally less changes to gameplay compared to stock paper). Also geyser (the bedrock cross compat) and viaversion/backwards (protocol translator for old versions) exist and work on fabric as well (people run these all the time). Through argument of not supporting older versions and being outdated is weird, since older versions are outdated by definition. With stability it depends which mods you use, but that can be mirrored to bukkit ecosystem as well, as there are a lot of buggy, unstable plugins there (gui item duping anyone?). The main point of this post is also to tell about why not to use any hybrid/bukkit api ports on fabric, as they all have a lot of issues compared to native modding (invasiveness, legacification and general incompatibility of bukkit-styled apis with custom content).

@muriplz
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muriplz commented Jul 1, 2024

I'm the grumpy guy at the start of this thread, and I can agree 100% on this thread now. It is a needed post.

Value your time, choose wisely, and don't use unstable stuff if you don't want to fix those ecosystems yourself (or don't know how)

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