Why you shouldn't use cardboard, banner or any other "hybrid" server

cardboard-not-so-great.md

By looking that you are here you most likely use Cardboard/Banner/some other weird bukkit + Fabric project (or just someone linked to it).

Don't do it, it will cause more harm/instabilities to your server than good. But let's start at the beginning.

Few definitions before we start:

• Bukkit - It means bukkit, spigot, paper and any forks of these,
• Cardboard - mod by IsaiahPatton that tries to port bukkit ecosystem to fabric.
• Banner - another mod trying to make plugins work with Fabric, similar to Cardboard.
• Fabric - a Minecraft modding platform, includes Fabric Loader and Fabric API, everything written in this gist also applies to Quilt.
• Mods - Mods designed for fabric and compatible platforms
• Plugins - Mods/plugins designed for bukkit/spigot/paper or their forks.

Why bukkit + Fabric will never work well

Mods being mods, they can modify game in substantial way. New blocks, items, mobs, etc. Possibilities are more or less endless as long as there is good enough programmer behind it. However, most mods still are kept compatible with each other, as they use tools designed for that (including Minecraft's internals, which allow for quite good compatibility) and having many gameplay mods is a norm.

Bukkit plugins on the other hand, while also normally compatible with each other, aren't really designed for custom blocks/items/etc. There are plugins that try to emulate mods with custom items/blocks/etc (for example Slimefun or ItemAdder), but they are mostly facade over vanilla items with some additional nbt. Because of that there are no issues most of the time (until other plugins don't try to use these items that is, as they see them as vanilla ones).

However, when you start mixing bukkit with fabric, bad things can easily happen. Fabric is close to Minecraft internal code (which has lots of nice and powerful stuff), while Bukkit is mostly an API which most of it's parts and design not being updated since 1.7. This means, you might need to make lots of conversions (with some not really possible without losing some functionality, for example messages in bukkit are just strings using legacy formatting, but mods use vanilla's more advanced json text for formatting). And if you start including things like non vanilla items, blocks and entities, it starts to break even more. Bukkit based server software is also known to break datapacks, which makes it even more likely to not work with mods (as a lot of them use and expend datapack funtionality).

Why Cardboard won't work

Cardboards approach is more or less taking bukkit code and hitting it with a hammer until it starts to barely works. It uses lots of hacks, code overriding entire methods in Minecraft (breaks lots of mods mixing into them!) and breaking vanilla behaviour. It's also questionable license wise, as GPL isn't really compatible with Minecraft code (and for this reason spigot and others use workarounds to bypass it). Additionally, it needs to modify some plugin on runtime to make them work, which only shows how bukkit wasn't designed for that usage. This mod will never be in a state stable enough to work with more advanced plugins while also not causing other mods to break or straight up crash. Most of the time developers of incompatible mods and plugins won't support it anyway as these mixed environments were always hacky and problematic, so it's safer and stabler to just use fabric alternatives.

Why Mohist/Banner won't work

In similar way of cardboard, to support bukkit api and plugins using it, it needs to make a lot of invalive changes to make things work. Which will also break a lot of mods (and plugins). It also is known to modify/swap plugins to make them work, so it's not even doing it's job properly (see https://essentialsx.net/do-not-use-mohist.html)

Why bukkit based software shouldn't really be around anymore

This is more of my own opinion (through it's shared by many), that bukkit based plugins and servers should be thing of the past. Bukkit (or Spigot and Paper) never fully adapted to modern Minecraft, as their goal of forever backwards compatibility limited how they could evolve. Bukkit was originally created for early Minecraft Betas and it's api was kept mostly the same. It was extended with new functionality, but it never fully adapted to modern versions. Lack of nbt api's, lack of support for datapacks as parts of plugins (which both non-bukkit platforms have supported for long time), it limits what could be done with server mods. Nearly all plugins that do something more advanced, require usage of non-bukkit Vanilla classes, either via another library or own code (and a lot of reflections and jvm hacks). For bigger servers that want to extend gameplay in their own ways, it's more common to just fork Bukkit/Spigot/Paper instead and add things in same ways as modders do.

OK, what should I do?

You should check out this list of server side fabric/quilt mods. There is lots of alternatives to pick, with even more being actively created!

If you are create mods or plugins you are also free to ask me about anything related, as I'm always happy to help people expand Fabirc/Quilt server side ecosystem :)

You should also checkout these server side communities:

• Fabric Server Side Development: https://discord.gg/atSzZ6zMHz
• Patbox's Discord: https://discord.gg/AbqPPppgrd
• Fabric/Quilt Server Tools: https://discord.gg/p56NJ6kp4u

Or modded ones in general:

• The Fabric Project: https://discord.gg/v6v4pMv
• The Quilt Community: https://discord.quiltmc.org/

begginging is typo'd. It's 'beginning'

I think cardboard has uses as a bridge between the two until alternatives are found. The issue is when people suggest cardboard before suggesting fabric alternatives.

It doesn't since it breaks lots of mods (including vanilla itself). It causes more issues than anything

I agree with this post, but most itemshop plugins don't support fabric, only bukkit. Quilt won't solve this problem as these plugins are linked to the itemshop pages. The only solution is to write an itemshop plugin for fabric by yourself, but I will not be able to do it at the moment or use unfortunately bridges like Cardboard. I was thinking only about using proxy to connect itemshop without bridge.

@Kamiszewskyy No idea if you care anymore, but patbox now has a server side item shop mod for fabric: https://modrinth.com/mod/universal-shops

While I agree to an extend do I also disagree with the statement that Bukkit and friends should be a thing of the past.

Sure, it may not be as extendable as Forge, Fabric and Quilt, but it is still easy to use.
Also, forks like Paper try their hardest to get away from this outdated mess of an API. Just see the Paper-API for an example where they try to get a better, more up-to-date API working.

At least with forks has the Bukkit side changed a bit. Paper brings these major changes to its devs:

• Usage of Kyori Adventure components for proper usage of Mojang JSON components
• Usage of Configurate for a better file management
• Improved Chunk Loading behaviour
• Implementation of the Starlight Engine for better light handling

Also, a main point from a dev perspective of why Bukkit is still around is the fact you pointed out as a negative: The barely changing API.
Sure, it's bad in some aspects, but it also allows a dev to have their plugin be compatible with multiple versions without fearing it breaks anything.
On Fabric (And forgive me if I'm wrong, but I haven't looked too deep into it yet) you access internals with Mixins which is an ever-changing thing for each new versions, which unless you rely on the Fabric API mod (which imo isn't a solution for every case), requires you to update a mod for every new version there is.
On Bukkit, plugins like Vault, which are a cornerstone of the plugin ecosystem, don't need frequent updates as their code is stable and relies on stuff Bukkit provides which barely will change.

Either way, that's my rather long reply. I agree with a lot, but not everything as you can see.

While I agree to an extend do I also disagree with the statement that Bukkit and friends should be a thing of the past.

Sure, it may not be as extendable as Forge, Fabric and Quilt, but it is still easy to use. Also, forks like Paper try their hardest to get away from this outdated mess of an API. Just see the Paper-API for an example where they try to get a better, more up-to-date API working.

At least with forks has the Bukkit side changed a bit. Paper brings these major changes to its devs:

• Usage of Kyori Adventure components for proper usage of Mojang JSON components
• Usage of Configurate for a better file management
• Improved Chunk Loading behaviour
• Implementation of the Starlight Engine for better light handling

Also, a main point from a dev perspective of why Bukkit is still around is the fact you pointed out as a negative: The barely changing API. Sure, it's bad in some aspects, but it also allows a dev to have their plugin be compatible with multiple versions without fearing it breaks anything. On Fabric (And forgive me if I'm wrong, but I haven't looked too deep into it yet) you access internals with Mixins which is an ever-changing thing for each new versions, which unless you rely on the Fabric API mod (which imo isn't a solution for every case), requires you to update a mod for every new version there is. On Bukkit, plugins like Vault, which are a cornerstone of the plugin ecosystem, don't need frequent updates as their code is stable and relies on stuff Bukkit provides which barely will change.

Either way, that's my rather long reply. I agree with a lot, but not everything as you can see.

Yeah, that's why I said it's my own opinion. With fabric mods requiring an update, it's not always the case. It only depends on what mojang changed and stability of "intermediary" (runtime class names, which are mapped from vanilla obfuscation), so there is chance things will work, still depends on Mojang changes (which are generally beneficial to modders most of the time tbf). That is also somewhat of a case with bukkit/paper plugins using vanilla classes. And in case of modded, generally people tend to go with more or less latest releases (or just few version, people on fabric aren't that interested in 1.16/1.18 anymore, as now "main" modding version is 1.19.2, and possible soon 1.20.1/2). I'm also not entirely against idea of Paper (as I can see the benefits), but being bound by bukkit api's does limit them and paper api will always be more limiting than mixins or alternatives. Also Starlight (which is standalone fabric and forge mod) and other mods can improve performance without requiring seperate server jar.

In similar way of cardboard, to support bukkit api and plugins using it, it needs to make a lot of invalive changes to make thigs work. Which will also break a lot of mods (and plugins). It also is known to modify/swap plugins to make them work, so it's not even doing it's job properly (see https://essentialsx.net/do-not-use-mohist.html)

They were for temporary fixes, and also you were asked if you wanted the jar to be replaced. Everything was open sourced. And it was like 3/4 years ago. I dont really see why people keep supporting this hate culture from EssentialsX devs, they just got mad and wrote the article fuming, since they avoid telling the actual thruth and just want the average user to nod without knowing what happened.

Read https://github.com/Shawiizz/MohistEssentialsX/blob/main/README.md

Ah, I see that mohist devs found this, trying to protect their broken mess of a project.

no, im not a mohist dev, im an user that doesnt know how to code almost, so not that (you can see my static abuses in my repositories). But you can keep convincing yourself while you keep spreading hate culture!

I know it's an opinion, and the opinion part I respect it, but the Essentials claims are objetively a lie, due to hiding information. If you can't take that statement it's your issue.

@muriplz

actual thruth

Ah yes... the "truth".
You know, the EssentialsX Devs did a superb job providing actual sources in their PSA. They didn't tell lies here to make themself better. They don't need that at all.

• It's a fact that Bukkit and Forge/Fabric APIs should never be merged... ever. They are different worlds of APIs and will never work with each other without one breaking their own stuff in various ways, yet Mohist still desperately tries to merge them together.
• It's a fact that Mohist asked people to replace the official EssentialsX jar with a modified one they made to "temporarely fix" an issue they themself create by mashing together two incompatible APIs.
• It's a fact that much better alternatives for Plugin + Mod compat exist, namely SpongeForge. Mashing together APIs that aren't meant to co-exist with each other only destroys things, which is why SpongeForge is recommended to use as it was build from the start with Mod support in mind.

Also, the Readme you linked is an absolute joke in various ways, especially these gems I want to cover myself.
Note that I'm not part of the EssentialsX team. I'm just someone who was around when the PSA happened.

Everything that is said in this README is proven and can be verified by yourself if you wish.

If it is "proven", then why aren't there links to posts, commits, screenshots, etc that show this proof? If you truly want to debunk something you should provide undeniable proof of it being wrong.

Yes, Mohist can replace with your permission the EssentialsX plugin with a modified one made by us to temporarily fix an incompatibility between EssentialsX and Mohist until we find a proper way to fix it on our side.

They completely ignore the fact that the "plugin checker" doesn't give any clue that the downloaded jar is NOT the official one from EssentialsX themself. It just say you should update the jar.
Also, the mention of a "plugin blacklist" in said update message is bad too, as it gives the impression that EssentialsX is bad since it's on a blacklist...

They're often saying that we did things wrong and did not make any effort, but on their side, they did not make any effort either. Instead of coming to discuss with the Mohist team as any other team would have done as civilized people, they decided to try to destroy the reputation of our software, which is totally shameful and shows a deep lack of communication on their part.

This one is really stupid... It's not the dev's job to first discuss it with the Mohist devs. This was a security risk, because a jar would be downloaded from a different source while the message made it look like it was an official thing.
The EssentialsX Devs saw the potential risk here and decided to take action in the form of a PSA to spread awareness.

Also, the readme constantly mentions that they would never spread malware... No shit sherlock. Next you tell me they never will share the modified MC server directly...
This is an obvious thing to say and honestly... I don't believe them. The main issue here is, that OS != safety. I can share code that looks absolutely fine while the actual files I distribute have malware in them. Unless someone takes the time to decompile it and look for malware, they will never know about the potential risk.
Saying "I will never share malware" is nice, but it has the same effect as saying "I will never cut myself with this knife" while running around with it in your hand.

Not only does their PSA spread false ideas and information, but it is also a lie to their community, which poses a trust issue with their team.

"If it looks like a monkey and speaks like a monkey..."
The download message was misleading and I explained many times why. So there is no surprise that the EssentialsX team saw it as a risk and made the PSA. From their side was this not lies, but what they saw and could find out at that time. It wasn't wrong at all.

@Andre601

If it is "proven", then why aren't there links to posts, commits, screenshots, etc that show this proof? If you truly want to debunk something you should provide undeniable proof of it being wrong.

There is commits in that github page I linked

They completely ignore the fact that the "plugin checker" doesn't give any clue that the downloaded jar is NOT the official one from EssentialsX themself. It just say you should update the jar.
Also, the mention of a "plugin blacklist" in said update message is bad too, as it gives the impression that EssentialsX is bad since it's on a blacklist...

They don't, they clearly said that they are sorry for not specifying correctly. I never said that wasn't true.

• It's a fact that EssentialsX page doesn't tell the whole info, and just focushes in what they want, instead of the "actual truth" (that meaning that they avoid certain key information, not that they are lying in what they say)
• It's a fact that EssentialsX wrote that page out of pure rage, since they didn't even contact Mohist team, which they would have gladly took it out.
• It's a fact that there is a lot of rage in your comment, which I haven't shared in my comments, and the devs that hate hybrids do share (sometimes).

Also, the readme constantly mentions that they would never spread malware... No shit sherlock. Next you tell me they never will share the modified MC server directly...
This is an obvious thing to say and honestly... I don't believe them. The main issue here is, that OS != safety. I can share code that looks absolutely fine while the actual files I distribute have malware in them. Unless someone takes the time to decompile it and look for malware, they will never know about the potential risk.

Like every jar download from an external site that isn't Actions you mean? I think 4 years is enough to call it down, to be honest, since there isnt any

If you truly want to debunk something you should provide undeniable proof of it being wrong.

suspicion of it being malware at all. It's just a claim of "it could be" which it hasn't been proven in all this years.

I actually agree with you, there should be a safer way of downloading the software jars, and the "plugin fix" should have never been done. But hating on an open source - non profit MC software just because of "hybrid" hate is a really frown upon thing to do in my opinion.

The "plugin fix" was done due to a lot of people in the discord asking for a fix, which made developers stress since it's a really used and huge essential plugin for many people, and the item ID parsing wasn't working with the plugin.

“道不同不相为谋": If men have different courses, they should not stay together in developing their career.

“道不同不相为谋": If men have different courses, they should not stay together in developing their career.

That's not what is being discussed, but I agree. The issue here is that these guys are just full-on hating. We are just there, we don't hate on Essentials or any of their devs and/or friends of their devs.

The issue here is that these guys are just full-on hating

You say this, but then previously you said:

no, im not a mohist dev, im an user that doesnt know how to code almost

...let me explain this to you so that a non-dev user will understand.

Forge MODIFIES the original Minecraft server. It injects a lot of new code for Events, particularly. Bukkit/Paper/etc. also do the same.

Forge and Bukkit can go "outside the API" via Mixins for example - this is where the REAL modding happens these days. But the problem here is that a dev for Forge and Bukkit is working against Forge and Bukkit proper, not Mohist. Mohist has additional changes to the Minecraft code that an individual Forge or Bukkit dev will likely not be aware of, because the dev themselves aren't working against Mohist (why would they bother).

Also, now that Forge is "dead" and essentially replaced with NeoForged, "coremodding" and Mixins are no longer naughty - so this problem is only going to get much worse for Mohist.

The latest server from the Paper team, Folia, touts itself as a fully-multithreaded version of Paper fork, but it can't even support datapacks IIRC, let alone have support for literally any custom content... the Bukkit-side has dug itself into the ground, giving the outward appearance of Minecraft "purists" as far as I'm concerned; and I think this is a self-destructive attitude to take considering that their community doesn't actively adopt newer Minecraft versions. It's like they're literally living in the past, refusing to adapt to the changing times.

As a dev myself, Fabric/Quilt honestly seems to be the way of the future.

As only a user, I am puzzled as to why you support Mohist when it literally gives you zero advantage. The official Minecraft server might not be open source, but it is free as in cost - so why does it matter to users?

Your claim that we are "full-on hating" can just as easily be countered with the claim that you are "full-on shilling" for Mohist, tbh, but I am not making that claim - don't get me wrong.

It's just that this article is geared for mod/plugin developers in a effort to get more to join the future in Fabric or Quilt, rather than wasting their talent on dead-end "we can do better than Mojang" type attitudes.

Sooooo many of these custom servers have come and gone in the past, and Mohist is like the 3rd OSS implementation I've seen over the years. Granted it's been more successful than the others have, but history has proven that these projects just cannot last because of how much technical debt they incur by trying to bridge two completely different philosophies of Minecraft content creation.

Mohist seems to have a very limited use case - people who want to make their own server but have zero development ability. I mean what is the actual point of it from a dev's PoV, considering how easy it is to port Bukkit plugins to Fabric or Forge?

...let me explain this to you so that a non-dev user will understand.

I'm a dev, im just not a mohist dev lmao, thanks for explaining me what mixin is

What you are claiming is just opinions, and I mostly share them, I dont even use mohist. Now, can you explain how this

has been up for more than 3 years, being proven that it is false, and it's not hate? It's literally claiming it's malware so people choose what you want rather than explaining them why they might prefer Fabric / Quilt.

A rewrite on the article (and mostly the title) would leave me with nothing to talk against witth, that's what's being discussed, I think you clearly missed the point

@cosmicdan

The latest server from the Paper team, Folia, touts itself as a fully-multithreaded version of Paper fork, but it can't even support datapacks IIRC, let alone have support for literally any custom content...

Given that Folia is still a fork of Paper, it makes sense since no Datapack support has been an issue in Spigot itself.
Also, define "custom content" here. You mean like modded blocks and items? Because that's due to the rigit Material enum not allowing custom values. But with that said is Spigot currently working on a change that would get rid of this for a more dynamic system. This would then theoretically allow custom blocks and items within the server without it breaking too much.

the Bukkit-side has dug itself into the ground, giving the outward appearance of Minecraft "purists" as far as I'm concerned; and I think this is a self-destructive attitude to take considering that their community doesn't actively adopt newer Minecraft versions. It's like they're literally living in the past, refusing to adapt to the changing times.

Bukkit has been dead for years now. It's now Spigot, Paper and whatever forks there are of these two.
Also, looking at bStats, which is by far the most reliable source for Server statistics, 1.20.1 is the most used version out of all with 1.8.8 only being at 5.1% which is barely anything.
So... No. People aren't "living in the past" in my opinion.

Are plugin-based servers good? No. Absolutely not. They break vanilla behaviour and are often awful to work with depending on what you want to do here...
But in terms of ease of use are they by far the better option because with mods you have to make sure to use the right versions AND that they do not require client-side mods to even join the server. Plugins are simple, have a very stable API which stays fairly consistent across versions and it's guaranteed that Players don't need any mods to join...

Anyways, Rant over. Enjoy your day.

@muriplz

has been up for more than 3 years, being proven that it is false, and it's not hate? It's literally claiming it's malware so people choose what you want rather than explaining them why they might prefer Fabric / Quilt.

It's not claiming that. Stop putting things in that aren't there.
The only claim they made is, that Mohist detects certain plugins and then "recommends" to download modified versions which is shady af here.
They never claimed that Mohist would distribute malware. Stop making this crap up.

And why should it give explanation for why to use Fabric/Quilt when it's an article made by Spigot Plugin devs?

That's like the Optifine devs making a post explaining why Fabric and Sodium should be used over their own mod... It doesn't make sense.

A rewrite on the article (and mostly the title) would leave me with nothing to talk against witth, that's what's being discussed, I think you clearly missed the point

The title and article are fine. And if anything have the Mohist dev proven that they are morally bancrupt, because they in fact tried to turn the article into a stupid PR-stunt by making a Pull request to modify it... a lot.

---

Do me a favour and properly read and research stuff next time before making blatantly wrong claims. Thanks.

(Also, do note that I'm not part of EssentialsX's team. Just one person active in the plugin community that also uses the plugin and was around when all this happened.)

Whoops, yes I misunderstood. You're saying that EssentialsX guys are the haters. That's fair enough, it is a bit harsh what they're saying.

What you are claiming is just opinion

Not really. Allow me to re-iterate - Forge makes changes to Minecraft code, even without any mods. So does Bukkit/Spigot/Paper/etc. When you make mods for one platform, especially coremods/mixins, that mod will be more fragile on Mohist vs the original environment. It's hard enough writing a mod against Forge + Fabric; throwing the Bukkit API into the mix at runtime (because nobody seems to care about specifically targeting a niche project like Mohist) introduces more fragility - that's objective. Whether or not it affects YOUR mods though is unknown. And that unknown is a HUGE red flag for any serious server admin.

I'm a dev, im just not a mohist dev lmao, thanks for explaining me what mixin is

You literally said "im an user that doesnt know how to code almost", though...? Eh doesn't matter, I didn't mean to be condescending is all - I was literally going on the info that you're not a dev.

EDIT: Sorry, posted too early. Final edits done.

Do me a favour and properly read and research stuff next time before making blatantly wrong claims. Thanks.

The article title clearly says "It includes dangerous behaviours", and it doesn't. But yes, I see now that yall are Fabric devs, and I apologize for bringing hate discussion here. The issue is that the link is posted in the article, whether you guys are Fabric or Spigot devs doesn't matter, you are still pointing to a link that was made with hatred in mind.

I made a whole lot of research, not only i lived that when happened, but if you read above there is also more information

@Andre601

A fair point regarding bStats showing 1.20.1, I was ignorant - I didn't know their servers could be updated so easily, getting new features from vanilla in their servers. And that's good that they're adding easier ways to add custom content, but yeah I guess what I should have said re: living in the past is along the lines of what you're thinking - they're just not good. "Janky" is an appropriate term IMO. But I guess that's the price they pay for making the API super stable.

Still, I'm being harsh here - obviously, they have a very successful platform, as evident by the various paid plugins out there.

---

With all that said, I am 100% in support of Patbox's work in regard to Polymer and other server-side modding. He has proven to be an absolute wizard that has made my choice of Fabric over Paper/Folia a no-brainer.....

...but THAT is definitely my opinion, and I'm coming to this party super late. As someone who is just starting out only now with making a public server, I can't see any reason why I'd use Paper/Folia over Fabric. I imagine there are a LOT of successful server networks out there that simply cannot afford to recreate their entire product on something other than Paper.

EDIT: Also, FWIW, I have practically never played vanilla Minecraft. Haven't even killed the Ender Dragon lol. So I'm probably very biased.

Also, now that Forge is "dead" and essentially replaced with NeoForged, "coremodding" and Mixins are no longer naughty - so this problem is only going to get much worse for Mohist.

W--WHAT!? What happened with Forge that i'm not aware (i switched for Fabric when i migrated my modpack to 1.19)? i didnt know about this until now.

Yeah I only found out about it myself about a week ago.... Bit off topic but here's all you need to know https://neoforged.net/news/theproject/ ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

…

On 30 July 2023, 06:57, at 06:57, Vico ***@***.***> wrote: @vico93 commented on this gist: > Also, now that Forge is "dead" and essentially replaced with NeoForged, "coremodding" and Mixins are no longer naughty - so this problem is only going to get much worse for Mohist. W--WHAT!? What happened with Forge that i'm not aware (i switched for Fabric when i migrated my modpack to 1.19)? i didnt know about this until now. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://gist.github.com/Patbox/e44844294c358b614d347d369b0fc3bf#gistcomment-4645244 Unsubscribe from this thread: https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAP65BG5BNHLU5LATFDZLTLXSV2LPBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCMJZGQZTCNRUU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF You are receiving this because you commented on the thread Message ID: ***@***.***>

@vico93

W--WHAT!? What happened with Forge that i'm not aware (i switched for Fabric when i migrated my modpack to 1.19)? i didnt know about this until now.

https://neoforged.net/news/theproject/

Yeah I only found out about it myself about a week ago.... Bit off topic but here's all you need to know https://neoforged.net/news/theproject/

Seems like the guys are a little bit late in rebelling against that Napoleon wannabe... Anyway, the only positive contribution that that scum left for Minecraft modding was causing an impulse for the creation of Fabric (and subsequentially Quilt)...

https://github.com/Patbox/StyledPlayerList/blob/1.20/src/main/java/eu/pb4/styledplayerlist/CardboardWarning.java
"Banner doesn't work with it!", that's a little a lie in most cases. Being honest is key, that's clearly not a good explanation and probably most mods work with banner. Don't wanna bring hate @Patbox , it just seems that you will do whatever you need to win this "war" that doesn't exist.

Some of the explanations in this whole conversation make sense, and yea, they can be a concern for serious server owners, obviously, as with any hybrid. But claiming directly (3 messages in case they don't see it) that it doesn't work in all your mods, I think is a little too much. Would it be too much to ask for a rewrite on the sentence so it's not lying to your user base in most cases?

Note: I'm not a Mohist/Banner protector, I'd do the same for any software or mod, there has to be fair play, and not lies. At least that's how I see it, sorry for the ping Pat

Well, I've checked the code and Banner will actually just crash (or just not work) once server loaded ServerPlayNetworkHandler so it is correct. And there is no war, I just don't want people to come to my discord/github and complain that things aren't working because of banner. So it's not wrong, my mods won't work propertly there (if not straight crash)

Was gonna say something to that effect but Patbox doesn't need me defending him :) though I will say in response to...

it just seems that you will do whatever you need to win this "war" that doesn't exist

This is a bit dramatic and ironic. I found this gist literally because I opened up Patbox's GitHub profile, it's not like he's going around sharing this on reddit or Discord servers lol. There is no "war", just as you said - this is just self-defence against people complaining that Pat's mods are broken or low-quality; something that all mod devs seen to have to do once they start to become a little popular.

I just don't want people to come to my discord/github and complain that things aren't working because of banner.

Yeah, the LOGGER.error("You won't get any support as long as it's present!"); achieves that

As with mohist, banner improves over time and solves issues, I dont think adding this to all your mods is fair play here, but that was it, sorry for bothering

I just don't want people to come to my discord/github and complain that things aren't working because of banner.

Yeah, the LOGGER.error("You won't get any support as long as it's present!"); achieves that

As with mohist, banner improves over time and solves issues, I dont think adding this to all your mods is fair play here, but that was it, sorry for bothering

You didn't read the first part? It won't work properly, so the first part is also true, there is no reason to change it. I'm not going to soften it because someone from likes hybrids doesn't like the message. I'm more tired by this entire cardboard-banner lineage breaking stuff than anything