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@Patbox
Last active March 24, 2024 05:11
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Why you shouldn't use cardboard, banner or any other "hybrid" server

By looking that you are here you most likely use Cardboard/Banner/some other weird bukkit + Fabric project (or just someone linked to it).

Don't do it, it will cause more harm/instabilities to your server than good. But let's start at the beginning.

Few definitions before we start:

  • Bukkit - It means bukkit, spigot, paper and any forks of these,
  • Cardboard - mod by IsaiahPatton that tries to port bukkit ecosystem to fabric.
  • Banner - another mod trying to make plugins work with Fabric, similar to Cardboard.
  • Fabric - a Minecraft modding platform, includes Fabric Loader and Fabric API, everything written in this gist also applies to Quilt.
  • Mods - Mods designed for fabric and compatible platforms
  • Plugins - Mods/plugins designed for bukkit/spigot/paper or their forks.

Why bukkit + Fabric will never work well

Mods being mods, they can modify game in substantial way. New blocks, items, mobs, etc. Possibilities are more or less endless as long as there is good enough programmer behind it. However, most mods still are kept compatible with each other, as they use tools designed for that (including Minecraft's internals, which allow for quite good compatibility) and having many gameplay mods is a norm.

Bukkit plugins on the other hand, while also normally compatible with each other, aren't really designed for custom blocks/items/etc. There are plugins that try to emulate mods with custom items/blocks/etc (for example Slimefun or ItemAdder), but they are mostly facade over vanilla items with some additional nbt. Because of that there are no issues most of the time (until other plugins don't try to use these items that is, as they see them as vanilla ones).

However, when you start mixing bukkit with fabric, bad things can easily happen. Fabric is close to Minecraft internal code (which has lots of nice and powerful stuff), while Bukkit is mostly an API which most of it's parts and design not being updated since 1.7. This means, you might need to make lots of conversions (with some not really possible without losing some functionality, for example messages in bukkit are just strings using legacy formatting, but mods use vanilla's more advanced json text for formatting). And if you start including things like non vanilla items, blocks and entities, it starts to break even more. Bukkit based server software is also known to break datapacks, which makes it even more likely to not work with mods (as a lot of them use and expend datapack funtionality).

Why Cardboard won't work

Cardboards approach is more or less taking bukkit code and hitting it with a hammer until it starts to barely works. It uses lots of hacks, code overriding entire methods in Minecraft (breaks lots of mods mixing into them!) and breaking vanilla behaviour. It's also questionable license wise, as GPL isn't really compatible with Minecraft code (and for this reason spigot and others use workarounds to bypass it). Additionally, it needs to modify some plugin on runtime to make them work, which only shows how bukkit wasn't designed for that usage. This mod will never be in a state stable enough to work with more advanced plugins while also not causing other mods to break or straight up crash. Most of the time developers of incompatible mods and plugins won't support it anyway as these mixed environments were always hacky and problematic, so it's safer and stabler to just use fabric alternatives.

Why Mohist/Banner won't work

In similar way of cardboard, to support bukkit api and plugins using it, it needs to make a lot of invalive changes to make things work. Which will also break a lot of mods (and plugins). It also is known to modify/swap plugins to make them work, so it's not even doing it's job properly (see https://essentialsx.net/do-not-use-mohist.html)

Why bukkit based software shouldn't really be around anymore

This is more of my own opinion (through it's shared by many), that bukkit based plugins and servers should be thing of the past. Bukkit (or Spigot and Paper) never fully adapted to modern Minecraft, as their goal of forever backwards compatibility limited how they could evolve. Bukkit was originally created for early Minecraft Betas and it's api was kept mostly the same. It was extended with new functionality, but it never fully adapted to modern versions. Lack of nbt api's, lack of support for datapacks as parts of plugins (which both non-bukkit platforms have supported for long time), it limits what could be done with server mods. Nearly all plugins that do something more advanced, require usage of non-bukkit Vanilla classes, either via another library or own code (and a lot of reflections and jvm hacks). For bigger servers that want to extend gameplay in their own ways, it's more common to just fork Bukkit/Spigot/Paper instead and add things in same ways as modders do.

OK, what should I do?

You should check out this list of server side fabric/quilt mods. There is lots of alternatives to pick, with even more being actively created!

If you are create mods or plugins you are also free to ask me about anything related, as I'm always happy to help people expand Fabirc/Quilt server side ecosystem :)

You should also checkout these server side communities:

Or modded ones in general:

@cosmicdan
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cosmicdan commented Jul 29, 2023

@Andre601

A fair point regarding bStats showing 1.20.1, I was ignorant - I didn't know their servers could be updated so easily, getting new features from vanilla in their servers. And that's good that they're adding easier ways to add custom content, but yeah I guess what I should have said re: living in the past is along the lines of what you're thinking - they're just not good. "Janky" is an appropriate term IMO. But I guess that's the price they pay for making the API super stable.

Still, I'm being harsh here - obviously, they have a very successful platform, as evident by the various paid plugins out there.


With all that said, I am 100% in support of Patbox's work in regard to Polymer and other server-side modding. He has proven to be an absolute wizard that has made my choice of Fabric over Paper/Folia a no-brainer.....

...but THAT is definitely my opinion, and I'm coming to this party super late. As someone who is just starting out only now with making a public server, I can't see any reason why I'd use Paper/Folia over Fabric. I imagine there are a LOT of successful server networks out there that simply cannot afford to recreate their entire product on something other than Paper.

EDIT: Also, FWIW, I have practically never played vanilla Minecraft. Haven't even killed the Ender Dragon lol. So I'm probably very biased.

@vico93
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vico93 commented Jul 29, 2023

Also, now that Forge is "dead" and essentially replaced with NeoForged, "coremodding" and Mixins are no longer naughty - so this problem is only going to get much worse for Mohist.

W--WHAT!? What happened with Forge that i'm not aware (i switched for Fabric when i migrated my modpack to 1.19)? i didnt know about this until now.

@cosmicdan
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cosmicdan commented Jul 29, 2023 via email

@Andre601
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@vico93

W--WHAT!? What happened with Forge that i'm not aware (i switched for Fabric when i migrated my modpack to 1.19)? i didnt know about this until now.

https://neoforged.net/news/theproject/

@vico93
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vico93 commented Jul 29, 2023

Yeah I only found out about it myself about a week ago.... Bit off topic but here's all you need to know https://neoforged.net/news/theproject/

Seems like the guys are a little bit late in rebelling against that Napoleon wannabe... Anyway, the only positive contribution that that scum left for Minecraft modding was causing an impulse for the creation of Fabric (and subsequentially Quilt)...

@muriplz
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muriplz commented Jul 30, 2023

https://github.com/Patbox/StyledPlayerList/blob/1.20/src/main/java/eu/pb4/styledplayerlist/CardboardWarning.java
"Banner doesn't work with it!", that's a little a lie in most cases. Being honest is key, that's clearly not a good explanation and probably most mods work with banner. Don't wanna bring hate @Patbox , it just seems that you will do whatever you need to win this "war" that doesn't exist.

Some of the explanations in this whole conversation make sense, and yea, they can be a concern for serious server owners, obviously, as with any hybrid. But claiming directly (3 messages in case they don't see it) that it doesn't work in all your mods, I think is a little too much. Would it be too much to ask for a rewrite on the sentence so it's not lying to your user base in most cases?

Note: I'm not a Mohist/Banner protector, I'd do the same for any software or mod, there has to be fair play, and not lies. At least that's how I see it, sorry for the ping Pat

@Patbox
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Patbox commented Jul 30, 2023

Well, I've checked the code and Banner will actually just crash (or just not work) once server loaded ServerPlayNetworkHandler so it is correct. And there is no war, I just don't want people to come to my discord/github and complain that things aren't working because of banner. So it's not wrong, my mods won't work propertly there (if not straight crash)

@cosmicdan
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cosmicdan commented Jul 30, 2023

Was gonna say something to that effect but Patbox doesn't need me defending him :) though I will say in response to...

it just seems that you will do whatever you need to win this "war" that doesn't exist

This is a bit dramatic and ironic. I found this gist literally because I opened up Patbox's GitHub profile, it's not like he's going around sharing this on reddit or Discord servers lol. There is no "war", just as you said - this is just self-defence against people complaining that Pat's mods are broken or low-quality; something that all mod devs seen to have to do once they start to become a little popular.

@muriplz
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muriplz commented Jul 30, 2023

I just don't want people to come to my discord/github and complain that things aren't working because of banner.

Yeah, the LOGGER.error("You won't get any support as long as it's present!"); achieves that

As with mohist, banner improves over time and solves issues, I dont think adding this to all your mods is fair play here, but that was it, sorry for bothering

@Patbox
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Patbox commented Jul 30, 2023

I just don't want people to come to my discord/github and complain that things aren't working because of banner.

Yeah, the LOGGER.error("You won't get any support as long as it's present!"); achieves that

As with mohist, banner improves over time and solves issues, I dont think adding this to all your mods is fair play here, but that was it, sorry for bothering

You didn't read the first part? It won't work properly, so the first part is also true, there is no reason to change it. I'm not going to soften it because someone from likes hybrids doesn't like the message. I'm more tired by this entire cardboard-banner lineage breaking stuff than anything

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