Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Wayland.md

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Wayland proponents make it seem like Wayland is "the successor" of Xorg, when in fact it is not. It is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Wayland is broken by design

• A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
• You cannot run applications as root
• You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
• There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
• It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

• MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
• https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
• vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
• obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
• There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
• phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

• jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
• jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

• raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback#149 (comment) ❌ broken since at least Nov 17, 2023 ("window sharing not being available in wlroots derived compositors (such as wayfire)")
• flathub/us.zoom.Zoom#22 Zoom ❌ broken since at least 4 Jan 2019. ("Can not start share, we only support wayland on GNOME with Ubuntu (17, 18), Fedora (25 to 29), Debian 9, openSUSE Leap 15, Arch Linux"). No word about non-GNOME!
• https://community.zoom.com/t5/Meetings/Screensharing-only-works-on-GNOME-wayland-when-it-should-work-on/m-p/64823 Zoom ❌ Still broken as of 24 Jun 2022. ("... we only support Wayland on Gnome with Ubuntu 17 and above, Fedora 25 and above, Debian 9 and above ...")
• probonopd/Zoom.AppImage#8 ❌ broken since 1 Oct 2022 Zoom: "You need PulseAudio 1.0 and above to support audio share" on a system that uses pipewire-pulseaudio

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

• https://gitlab.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu/-/issues/116 ❌ broken since 24 Aug 2018 ("because the lack of the Gtk+ Wayland support for the Global Menu")

• https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=424485 ❌ Still broken as of late 2023 ("I am also still not seeing GTK global menus on wayland. They appear on the applications themselves, wasting a lot of space.")

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

• https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ ("it uses global window IDs, which don’t exist in a Wayland world... no global menu on Wayland, I thought, not without significant re-engineering effort"). KDE had to do additional work to work around it. And it still did not work:

• https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385880 ("When using the Plasma-Wayland session, the global menu does not work.")

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

• https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ ❌ broke non-KDE platformplugins. As a result, global menus now need _KDE_NET_WM_APPMENU_OBJECT_PATH which only the KDE platformplugin sets, leaving everyone else in the dark

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

• https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

• https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/redshift ❌ broken ("Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature")

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

• albertlauncher/albert#309 ❌ broken since 7 Jan 2017 ("This is a security measure, but has the side effect of preventing applications from registering their own global hotkeys") YouTube video by René Rebe

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

• https://cfenollosa.com/blog/fed-up-with-the-mac-i-spent-six-months-with-a-linux-laptop-the-grass-is-not-greener-on-the-other-side.html ❌ broken since at least 02 Apr 2021 ("Screen tearing with the intel driver. Come on. This was solved on xorg and now with Wayland it's back.")

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

• https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

• https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

• https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

• https://phabricator.kde.org/D16648#470609 ("Wayland clients can't raise or activate themselves"), ❌ broken since May 27 2019

Wayland breaks RescueTime

• https://help.rescuetime.com/article/117-common-linux-issues ("One of the features of Wayland is that it prevents apps from doing precisely what RescueTime is trying to do—track activity in other windows.") ❌ broken since June 3, 2021

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

• https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

• Screen recording and casting
• Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
• Global shortcuts
• System tray
• Input Method support/editor (IME)
• Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
• Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
• Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
• HDR/deep color support
• VRR (variable refresh rate)
• Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

• https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

• https://kb.nomachine.com/TR03S10126?s=wayland ❌ broken since 2021-03-09 ("The session becomes unresponsive once logged-in to the Wayland desktop")

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

• AppImage/AppImageKit#1221 (comment) ❌ broken since 2022-20-15 ("Espanso built for X11 will not work on Wayland due to xclip. Wayland asks for wl-copy")

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

• https://github.com/linuxhw/hw-probe-pyqt5-gui/commit/eb2d6e5145fb8571414bda57676084b7f13b94e5#diff-23cb15995f1502beebb38433bfa83204a5f45b376eaf88e2e41a0d8a1cd44722R290 ❌ broken since 2022-04-09 ("SUDO_ASKPASS doesn't work on Wayland currently, so piping the password")

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

• PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

• "Unfortunately not all Wayland compositors support DRM leasing" https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/18A4-1E10-8A94-3DDA - "not all" highlights one of the fundamental problems with Wayland - there is fragmentation

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

• ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux#6148 ❌ broken since 2019-03-17

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

• Wayland breaks window icons when no .desktop files are used: Seemingly Wayland requires developers to use the xdg-shell protocol, which in turn requires developers to use reverse-DNS application IDs and set_app_id, which causes the icon to be loaded from the .desktop file. This is serious breakage, as not all desktop environments (for good reasons) use .desktop files. A display server should have no business in this, as this belongs into the domain of the desktop environment. https://community.kde.org/Guidelines_and_HOWTOs/Wayland_Porting_Notes#Application_Icon, https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/52 ❌ broken since 2021-06-21

• Qt setWindowIcon has no effect on KDE/Wayland https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-101427 ("Resolution: Out of scope", meaning it cannot be fixed in Qt, "Using QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb works, though", meaning that if you disable Wayland then it works) ❌ broken since 2022-03-03

• LibrePCB developer: "Btw it's just one of several problems we have with Wayland, therefore we still enforce LibrePCB to run with XWayland. It's a shame, but I feel totally helpless against such decisions made by Wayland and using XWayland is the only reasonable option (which even works perfectly fine)..." https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/52#note_2155885

Wayland breaks drag and drop

• On Raspberry Pi OS (which is running a Wayland session by default), dragging a file out of a zip file onto the desktop fails with "XDirectSave failed."
• The same seems to be true in Gnome: https://discourse.gnome.org/t/xdnddirectsave-and-wayland/2954

Workarounds

• Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
• Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

• Asahi Linux enforces Wayland for ARM-based Macs: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092
• Fedora enforces Wayland for KDE Plasma: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6#Why_drop_the_X11_session_with_the_Plasma_6_upgrade?
• Red Hat enforces Wayland for RHEL:https://www.redhat.com/de/blog/rhel-10-plans-wayland-and-xorg-server

History

• 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
• End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
• Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

References

• Dudemanguy's Musings, Wayland Isn't Going to Save The Linux Desktop
• Chris Titus Tech: Wayland vs Xorg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_MBJcD3SFI
• tildearrow: did somebody say "anti-Wayland horseshit"?
• pcsx2: CI/Linux: Disable Wayland and spring cleaning
• Testing SCREEN RECORDERS on Linux Mint Wayland
• ProtonPenguin: Wayland Breaks Everything

I provided solid cold facts, and with no counter-arguments you decided to twist everything and turn it into something political. Sorry, try that with your grandma or your younger sibling. That won't work with me.

I especially appreciated the "dehumanization" reference because surely you applied it directly to me since you even know that I frequented LOR but I left it 9 years ago.

Considering I have helped resolve over three hundred bugs in various open source projects including GCC and the kernel without which Linux cannot exist, it just shows what kind of person you are. And it's not like I've ever stopped. Just last week I filed three new ones, one of which has already been fixed.

Do you know who raised the issue of the infamous OOM stall in Linux? Yours truly: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM

What did it ensue? First, most distros included early-oomd, then Lennart implemented systemd-oomd.

And since you've decided to make it personal continue your "Linux is underappreciated and shunned" circle jerk of believing that it's Microsoft that somehow prevents Linux from being a popular widely used OS.

Not the fact that:

• Linux [distros] has no backward/forward compatibility
• Linux [distros] is extremely bug-ridden
• Linux [distros] is extremely regression-prone
• Linux [distros] lacks a ton of software and has no native games per se (Indies and emulation don't count)

If Linux is perfect, honestly what the fuck are you doing here? Enjoy Xorg/Wayland, whatever works for you.

This is a topic about something as crucial and central as GUI in Linux being in a horrible pathetic state be it Xorg or Wayland, but somehow I'm guilty for that, right??

Remember this?

The controversy around systemd culminated in personal attacks and alleged death threats against Lennart Poettering.

Remember this?

Also in 2011, when asked why the Linux desktop hadn't been widely adopted by mainstream users, he answered that: "Linux is still too fragmented...[and] needs to be streamlined..."

Exactly what I've been talking about for over two decades now.

Fuck crazy Linux fanatics, the absolute worst thing about Linux, keep eating shit and pretending it's the world conspiracy against it. Somehow the OS attracts the most marginal belligerent and evil people.

@birdie-github I do have to say I appreciate your talent to get people stop visiting this gist just so they don't have to read your "comments" anymore.

Well if you think about it .. CDE was that standardization from the x-server to the user.. For a while both KDE (pre-plasma) and Gnome (pre-3) took that standardized mantle and Gnome won. KDE will always be a joke. It looks the part (or used to) but doesn't deliver. While Gnome UX design holds back the power GTK3 still has.

I believe this can be achieved barring driver issues with x11 and a more generic-ized gtk3.

Yes, fork GTK3 and modify it into a more generic toolkit.

@birdie-github

Linux [distros] lacks a ton of software and has no native games per se (Indies and emulation don't count)

On the game front that is a bit of an over exaggeration, like all of valves games have native ports (have for years) and if a game playable under WINE/Proton i would still class that as just about native as 99% of the time no game files need to change (not counting config files) and it better a game to be playable under WINE/Proton then to have a shit Linux port that does not get updated just like the borderlands games

And since you've decided to make it personal continue your "Linux is underappreciated and shunned" circle jerk of believing that it's Microsoft that somehow prevents Linux from being a popular widely used OS.

well having windows be the default install for most systems does not help as it hard to get people to use the none default software people either need a need/want to do so and for most people windows does what they need so they don't change (most people would be happy with a system running KDE). The only reason people install things like chrome as IE then firefox became to "shit" and now most people are in the habit of installing it when setting up a system

Linux [distros] is extremely bug-ridden

i feel this was put in the list in bad faith

Linux [distros] has no backward/forward compatibility

i don't see this as an issue as there are simple to use ways around that unless its kernel level then its not as simple

While Wine is nice to lean on it should be a goal to never need it. Or did no one learn anything from OS/2 being a better dos than dos and a better windows than windows?

@birdie-github I do have to say I appreciate your talent to get people stop visiting this gist just so they don't have to read your "comments" anymore.

Great way to kill the gist. Not sure why we have three Windows users invading here, lol.

While Wine is nice to lean on it should be a goal to never need it.

true

To me wayland causes eye strain. Used on old intel UHD graphics and used it on Radeon new laptop. The same. And it is hard to document what is a real cause of it. So X11 is a solution now. But I have to admit, video playback is much better on Wayland. So screen tearing, nothing out of a box. Of course you can set options on X11 too to make it a bit better.

I am a former Windows user who struggled repeatedly to get free.. Now that I am free of it what do I find.. the same old shit I literally wanted away from overwriting the Linux i wanted to switch to.

But that's the thing.. This is open source.. and open source means bullshit is only as valid as your inability to do anything about it. If you have or gain the ability, then eliminating or doing a reliable bypass on massive amounts of corporate linux, or corporate web, or generalized software bullshit becomes not so far fetched. Just need the right tone and core motivation.

Take note of what my icon says, may have to go to my profile.. but it DISTINCTLY says "This will end your Windows session." ;)

Besides, IF you want to go the "wine/proton is effectively native gaming" then ndiswrapper or an expansion to cover the entire Windows driver model is effectively native drivers. And sure if someone was gonna do that great on them.. Do it already.. else stop calling things native when they aren't. Wine is not native, ndiswrapper is not native, and webapps in electron doesn't make them native desktop either.

Also for the record, Windows current "Subsystem for Linux" is just a hidden away hypervisor not like the posix, os2, and win32 api subsystems in the NT kernel so that ain't native either lol.

To me wayland causes eye strain. Used on old intel UHD graphics and used it on Radeon new laptop. The same. And it is hard to document what is a real cause of it. So X11 is a solution now. But I have to admit, video playback is much better on Wayland. So screen tearing, nothing out of a box. Of course you can set options on X11 too to make it a bit better.

That is very interesting. I went back because of features missing / instability.
But in general, I get eye-strain from displays that can be overly bright and have HDR support.
X11 does not support HDR, Wayland does!

I can generally not use IPS displays, or anything too bright/color-intense.
I use TN Displays such as the BenQ XL2546K and BenQXL2566K, LG 24GM79G at the moment.
I cannot use anything that is natively a Mac or I get eyestrain over time.

When I was testing on my own, I was succesfull recreating the effect enabling dithering / disabling dithering.
Theres something going on most people are not susceptible for - whose brains can be tricked.
But for some sensitive groups, this trickery for more color gamut induces headaches.

It's also possible that linux sets a too low pwm setting.
https://superuser.com/questions/707477/laptop-screen-causes-eye-strain-on-all-linux-distros-except-ubuntu-and-elementar

@SDonatas Try picom and if it doesn't eliminate tearing either learn to configure it properly (like I should) or try this cmdline in your autostart script. I recommend doing it after any other operations like xrandr or xset but before setting the wallpaper if your window manager doesn't handle it.

Hell here is my openbox autostart.. I am sure a few tidbits will be useful to passers-by.

#!/bin/bash
BINOC_ARTWIZ_COLOR='#3b4b5b'
BINOC_WIN2K_COLOR='#3b6ea5'

# Start Services
exec /usr/libexec/polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1 &
exec ibus-daemon -rxRd &

# Disables all blanking because it is bugged. XScreensaver will help after this.
xset s noblank && xset s off && xset -dpms && xset dpms 0 0 0 && xset dpms force off && xset dpms force on
xscreensaver-command -exit & xscreensaver -no-splash &

# Setup the screens and desktop
. /tobin/.screenlayout/main.sh
picom --vsync --backend glx &
hsetroot -solid ${BINOC_WIN2K_COLOR}

# Settings
gsettings set org.nemo.preferences treat-root-as-normal true &
gsettings set org.cinnamon.desktop.default-applications.terminal lxterminal &

# Shell
#(sleep 1 & /binoc/workstation/projects/winbar/newbuild/winbar) &
#(sleep 1 & nemo-desktop) &

# Launch a terminal
(lxterminal || xfce4-terminal || gnome-terminal || xterm) &

Besides, IF you want to go the "wine/proton is effectively native gaming"

by your logic if some one replaces a the implementation of a library a program uses but was not compiled with is no longer native

It is not native to the linux kernel like an any elf would be. Add some bits to the kernel like that one attempt did and it becomes .. MORE native .. more native than WSL2 is to NT.

I am gonna be distracted for a while doing an Add-ons Site for the SeaMonkey Project as only I can produce so feel free to get back to bickering amongst yourselves. I'll still be observing but I do need to get this to materialize before I finish my x11 unified tree, forking gtk3 components, and doing a rhel-ish based distro and an lfs distro. Not to mention my PWARunner based on Modern Mozilla code.

These are all things I care about and intend to do and as I said regardless of what anyone else may start.. But I have decided these are happening and so they shall.

Peace!

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mwcampbell/wayland-protocols/-/compare/main...accessibility?from_project_id=2891

@birdie-github

cold facts

Claims like "horrible mess of software" are in no way cold and are obviously subjective. If you want to keep the discussion cold, keep it cold yourself furthermost.

but I left it 9 years ago

LOR virus still remained in you forever.

Considering I have helped resolve over three hundred bugs in various open source projects

This just makes you biased for that matter. Do you know what professional deformation is?

You see too much bugs in FOSS, and with years it tuned your subjective coefficients to the point when you see nothing but bugs there. And treat software you barely run into as sacred by default somehow.

You're definitely upset with that, so I might suggest to take a break.

Microsoft that somehow prevents Linux from being a popular widely used OS

I wonder why do you attribute it to me at all.

I rather incline to a position that the Windows target audience should not be allowed to use computers at all, due to their incompetence, rather than they should migrate to GNU/Linux.

Anyway, they don't make choices really. Especially here in Ukraine where Microsoft products are deeply integrated into education for decades, which results in normies using them for any use cases, because they're unwilling to learn other software made for those use cases specifically. I have probably reported here numerous cases of using Word for storing screenshots, webpages, and even for drawing electrical circuits.

This is multiplied by still-omnipresent piracy, so FOSS does not provide some benefit even economically. I've heard numerous cases of admins installing GNU/Linux before a visit of controlling organs, and then installing pirated Windows which employees are used to back when they go. Only Privatbank is a major exception, because it was driven by an ambitious team who refused to pay for standard de-facto products in banking industry and made innovative products based on FOSS themselves. Including a GNU/Linux distribution for their workstations based on Ubuntu. Though that team has left the bank after its nationalization, and workstations got gradually replaced with iPads even before that already.

Many laptops come with some obscure GNU/Linux distributions or FreeDOS preinstalled. Guess what are they actually used for, lol.

Linux [distros] has no backward/forward compatibility

Really, then how the same XS++ binary works for me for 16 years already lol?

no native games

For overprotective and religious parents that's rather a benefit. So the computer would actually be used for what it's bought for: education. Chromebooks are even better for that matter though.

lacks a ton of software

If GNU/Linux users were willing to pay for software, this software would be ported for GNU/Linux too. But if they are, why do they use GNU/Linux in the first place? For those who want a well-polished UNIX-like operating system, macOS exists already. Complaints for commercial GNU/Linux distributions like RHEL or SUSE Linux are not really relevant in this thread, as the audiences barely overlap: question their management if they are successful with providing their target audience with what it wants and achieving stable sales. If they're have no significant problems, than STFU with your made-up ones. Or get hired by them if you believe you can multiply their sales with your ideas and experience.

GUI
crucial and central

No.

Did your finger stick to the mouse, hehe?

Remember this?

The controversy around systemd culminated in personal attacks and alleged death threats against Lennart Poettering.

Yeah, and I see no problems with that. Yet Poettering is not really that valuable figure nowadays, so that's pointless already. And Stephen Elop has made much more destruction for the software world anyway, yet that's long in the past too and the revenge won't fix anything already.

the most marginal belligerent and evil people

Is that a problem in any way? Such people drive the progress due to being unsatisfied by the world, while the rest just sits on a branch and eats bananas. Or helps collecting bananas for others, like you, due to believing it's more important to listen to what other monkes want rather than forcing them to fall from the branches and develop agriculture.

It was always like that, one of the main arguments against wayland when it came out, i think first there was MIR and then came Wayland, and back then a lot of people pointed out that this was going to kill lots of desktop functionality, interoperability etc.
There was only strawman arguments as replies but mostly it was simply "yeah so? shutup nerds", and this is how it went.

In a nutshell, I can't help to those pointlessly believing that GNU/Linux is somehow supposed to be a free Windows alternative. It's different, it has its own market niche, and it's not supposed to bend over to please some alien audience who has different needs. Let it to be a toy for anime NEETs and get the hell out.

If GNU/Linux users were willing to pay for software, this software would be ported for GNU/Linux too.

some of us are, some of it is. most of the time its not the lack of willingness to pay its just the cost of porting is seen as to high (like there is to little demand)

@zarlo

The only reason people install things like chrome

… because Google did aggressively promote it by exploiting their dominant position on the search engine market.

cost of porting is seen as to high (like there is to little demand)

Sells would make it justified.

It's not like software needs to be written from scratch for that, after all. Making sure it works under Wine, like AkelPad did, is well enough already. TeamViewer did ship Wine with it, up to the 13th version, AFAIR, until they rewrote the client in Qt finally and released a native version. Electron uses Wine to compile builds for Windows, lol, while macOS builds require a macOS system.

@SDonatas

And it is hard to document what is a real cause of it

Screen refresh rate probably?

It also breaks QubesOS (cannot display VM consoles, obviously). Can someone edit this in? It's late and i don't want to break the file.

@mattatobin

I believe this can be achieved barring driver issues with x11 and a more generic-ized gtk3.

Yes, fork GTK3 and modify it into a more generic toolkit.

In reality of FOSS development it only works if:

1. The toolkit is used by multiple parties.
2. Those parties are involved into its development.
3. The parties have different views for the toolkit, and can agree on introducing flexibility, instead of forking and shitting each other.

Prematurily designing something generic usually ends up out of touch with reality and not actually demanded by anyone, thus being a dead project.

GTK4 is unacceptable and GTK5 is likely if not certain to drop X11. My chosen basic system tools are gtk3, the gtk4 versions if not rewritten for crippled functionality are inferior stylistically and user experience wise to the GTK3 versions.

I am on an overarching quest to assemble and create a complete system. X11, Gnome Components, later gtk3, modern mozilla, serverside and later clientside webapps.. From the kernel to the web page and back up there is no reason that cannot be within the grasp of every person who wants it.

For the record, I want it.

lol what are you talking about, I can share screen just fine on Zoom and Slack, I can record my screen just fine on OBS. I can have a better remote desktop experience than ever before with login screen remote sessions on wayland enabled sessions. Wine and proton are finishing working on wayland native support instead of going through XWayland which makes game performance better than X11.

Stop whining because you are using a system that is not ready. No one is forcing you but also stop spreading misinformation that it "breaks everything" yes it breaks legacy apps that are not willing to update just like MS Office breaks if you are switching from Windows to Linux, they are different systems.

@brunofin

lol what are you talking about, I can share screen just fine on Zoom and Slack, I can record my screen just fine on OBS.

Me, too. It works in any DE without Pipewire/DBus or portals in Xorg.

I can have a better remote desktop experience than ever before with login screen remote sessions on wayland enabled sessions.

The best remote desktop experience is ssh -X, everything else is just worse. It's a shame that GUI toolkits are so slow these days (besides, hardware rendering can't be properly transmitted over the network except by taking a pixmap of the whole application).

Wine and proton are finishing working on wayland native support instead of going through XWayland

What's the situation with multi-window applications?

which makes game performance better than X11.

Performance in the best-case scenario would be the same.

Stop whining because you are using a system that is not ready.

Exactly the system we're using is finished, then the Wayland-cultists came along and started reinventing the square wheel.

No one is forcing you but also stop spreading misinformation that it "breaks everything"

It literally breaks everything, the very idea of Wayland is flawed because of fragmentation.

yes it breaks legacy apps that are not willing to update just like MS Office breaks if you are switching from Windows to Linux

They are different OS.

It also breaks QubesOS (cannot display VM consoles, obviously). Can someone edit this in? It's late and i don't want to break the file.

I don't understand this one. Care to elaborate what you mean by that?. "VM consoles" are just usual X11 or wayland backed windows so they are no different to, lets say xcalc.

The rofi app launcher, cannot be assigned focus on Wayland

One again, Wayland may be wonderful one day.. but after 10 years of waiting that day is not any time soon and what angers me is imposed forcing of it and being shat upon in proportional degrees to just how much I can do without whatever is in question or assume control over that part of my system and use what I want or like or actually works.

I don't doubt there are specific combos of hardware and components that produce a largely solid wayland experience but until that is the case for most personal computers or around the same basic experience as x11 in solid functioning.. Leaving the subject of missing and broken re-imagined features aside for the moment. Like all the fuckin cool shit you can do with an X server.

What we eventually need is basically the reverse of xwayland.. we need an xclient that can host wayland apps that can abstract wayland bs back to x11.

@mattatobin sounds like you want cage https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage

The one thing I've been trying to use it for doesn't work so can't say much, but doesn't seem it's because of cage.

@mattatobin This is kind of what you talk about (on Fedora 40 Xorg session):

# dnf install -y weston foot
$ weston &
$ export WAYLAND_DISPLAY=wayland-1
$ foot

@mattatobin

My chosen basic system tools are gtk3

GTK+3 is unacceptable too.

Why not GTK+2?

@Monsterovich

hardware rendering can't be properly transmitted over the network

Then what GLX is for?

@lietu

sounds like you want cage

It's uncapable of displaying multi-window applications.

@bodqhrohro I love gtk2 but be realistic.. If i was gonna go with an older toolkit I may as well just reuse Trinity's QT3 .. Also, the only thing really unacceptable about GTK3 is Gnome's specific UX design and the fact every time a good skin library builds up they break themes on point releases. Obviously that isn't gonna keep happening at this point.. And if you JUST do no-csd most of the basic utilities even with a hamburger button look MUCH BETTER with a damned window frame on it. You know that thing that is impossible in wayland.

@bodqhrohro

Then what GLX is for?

The GLX is not designed for networking.

Try using VirtualGL via ssh, the result will still be slower than passing in rendering commands via network.

Actually not impossible, but you need to build gtk3 with the gtk3-classic patchset or at least those patches concerning CSD. The results will look a lot more like GTK2 and you even get back the ability to stripe treeviews if you include that part of the patches. I use them all. This takes out things like hardcoding CSD on dialog windows in wayland

@bodqhrohro I love gtk2 but be realistic.. If i was gonna go with an older toolkit I may as well just reuse Trinity's QT3 .. Also, the only thing really unacceptable about GTK3 is Gnome's specific UX design and the fact every time a good skin library builds up they break themes on point releases. Obviously that isn't gonna keep happening at this point.. And if you JUST do no-csd most of the basic utilities even with a hamburger button look MUCH BETTER with a damned window frame on it. You know that thing that is impossible in wayland.

The rofi app launcher, cannot be assigned focus on Wayland

It can.

Me, too. It works in any DE without Pipewire/DBus or portals

Same here on sway.

Exactly my point, just with no-csd injection it improves the experience in say OpenBox marketedly.. Issue is gtk4 apps loose their caption buttons but don't gain a window frame.. but they look stylistically even more horrific than gnome apps had in gtk3.

The patches you speak of would be far better it sounds tho.

The problem for me is that X11, from what I've read doesn't support Variable Refresh Rate (e.g. G-Sync) on X11 sessions when using multiple monitors. As someone who enjoys gaming quite a lot, this is a complete dealbreaker for me, because G-Sync does eliminate screen-tearing entirely.

It doesn't even matter if the monitors are completely identical, or use "G-Sync Ultimate" (although that 'Ultimate' tag for me is little more than marketing BS lol), but because the way X server treats all monitors as a single "screen" means that VRR like G-Sync doesn't work and I don't think will for a long time. Even the new NVIDIA 555+ drivers with Explicit Sync support don't seem to help with this. Wayland seems to be the answer to fix this...

But of course, Wayland as mentioned in this note comes will a whole host of issues. Again, as a gamer myself, the one that almost immediately springs to mind is that screensharing/screen recording like OBS and Discord are almost entirely useless in Wayland without using ToS-breaking 3rd party clients. I shouldn't have to break ToS on a service like Discord to be able to make screen-sharing work on Wayland... and as people like Jake from Discord have said, Linux is a very low %age of their users, so is not exactly their highest priority...

This sorta leaves people like me in a hard place. Granted "gamers who have multiple monitors that support VRR and also want to game on Linux" are already a niche within a niche, but it highlights the issue where they can't really win and have to give up features if they want to use Linux.

This means I often end up just giving up with Linux and (very begrudgingly) going back to Windows, because at least there everything works (most of the time...)

@AnnieTheEagle

The problem for me is that X11, from what I've read doesn't support Variable Refresh Rate (e.g. G-Sync) on X11 sessions when using multiple monitors. As someone who enjoys gaming quite a lot, this is a complete dealbreaker for me, because G-Sync does eliminate screen-tearing entirely.

The thing is, VRR was not designed to work on multiple monitors at all. Its main purpose is to match the FPS of the game (in other words, of the fullscreen window). I don't even know theoretically how to make VRR work on multiple monitors or in a multi-window system. So it's not a Xorg problem at all.

I guess if you disable compositing on the entire desktop, VRR will work on both monitors, or it won't work due to driver limitation.

@Monsterovich

I don't even know theoretically how to make VRR work on multiple monitors or in a multi-window system. So it's not a Xorg problem at all.

It works on Windows. I've never had any issues with it, even with two monitors at different refresh rates. I usually have a game on my primary monitor (full screen) and on my secondary monitor I have Discord or web browser etc.

The issue stems from the fact X11 treats all monitors as a single "screen"

Windows is.. different. But with picom i don't get tearing in vidja games. Of course I don't span games over multiple monitors. That sounds awefully specialized and kinda out of scope.. But the hero would be the person who makes it work on x11 like all the heros who made everything not from the 90s work.

@mattatobin

Of course I don't span games over multiple monitors.

I'm not spanning games across multiple monitors. The game is on a single monitor, with other applications on second monitor (YouTube, etc). But because X11 considers both monitors as a single "screen"/"display" (whatever the term is). It still doesn't work. There are work arounds, but they come with their own drawbacks (you can create two different X displays, one for each monitor, but then you can't even move the mouse between the two displays, which is awful.

See https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate#Known_issues

Maybe people should stop "playing on the computer" and start playing with the computer code. You don't need much more than standard v-sync and basic compositing for that.

And you don't even need that but it sure is nice to have.

@mattatobin

Maybe people should stop "playing on the computer" and start playing with the computer code. You don't need much more than standard v-sync and basic compositing for that.

And you don't even need that but it sure is nice to have.

I'd argue that just telling people to "stop doing something" because X11 doesn't support it is somewhat pointless. These features have uses, screen tearing can be quite annoying and standard V-sync doesn't solve the problem if whatever you're doing doesn't reach the FPS needed to reach V-sync.

Saying "Wayland is bad, X11 is better, and if you use features that Wayland introduces you should just stop doing those things that need those features" is precisely why Linux has never caught on for desktop use. It's because you have many different groups of people that can never agree on things, it's also probably why Wayland's development has been moving at a glacial pace.

HEY, I have an idea: Because WAYLAND exists and will overwrite the environments of anyone using the so-called major distros no matter what any of us do.. MAYBE just MAYBE you can use wayland if it actually works well enough for you while people who prefer X11 can just keep having X11 that they get or build from source them selves or even eventually hard fork it can just have it and gamers can stop bitching about game issues which are not always realistic or compatible with general computer user priorities.

I do not consider a computer to be a mere-multifunction device. Swappable with a tablet or a phone or a television or a game console.. The concept of the Personal Computer is beyond that and it is simply proven by every device and appliance getting reduced feature versions of computer hardware not just digital electronics or electro-mechanical but computer hardware. These replacement devices and appliances are extrapolated from the originals with computer control but they cannot, normally or without specialist modification, be turned back in to your personal computer from what is provided.

We must ALL resist the urge to compromise the superset because the superset includes the subset.

However, a subset of gamers with patches with solutions would greatly improve the superset AND my opinion of them ;)

@mattatobin

can just keep having X11 that they get or build from source them selves

RHEL 9/Rocky Linux 9 will have Xorg until 2032. Enjoy!

To summarize: Does X11 HAVE to do everything Wayland intends to support if Wayland exists no matter what as the imposed future regardless?

Cause you change X11 too much and its a new standard and apps break.. You don't and Waylandists will come wave after wave to set you on the "correct path" or just be dicks about it.

The person who would choose X11 is that the same person who needs multi-monitor refresh rates and ultra high def gaming capability in perfect Windows-eq capacity? Or is this an opportunity to actually follow and test some open source coreisms of us at large not a small group of corporate-minded-them should be working on this thing and guiding it and they should be contributing to us at large not the other way around.

EDIT: @aki-k Yeah well I will have an EL-based distro with my own x11 window server built from a unified tree from xorg sources likely by the end of the year or start of next year.. And the repo far sooner. I won't NEED to rely on stock as-is rhel9 until redhat decides to prematurely cancel that too.. Cause they established that precedent already and mostly got away with it.

@mattatobin

while people who prefer X11 can just keep having X11 that they get or build from source them selves

Quite sure the people you are describing here are probably the type that aren't using the major distros anyway. :-)

gamers can stop bitching about game issues which are not always realistic or compatible with general computer user priorities.

They were clearly a big enough problem for Wayland to decide to implement them!

I do not consider a computer to be a mere-multifunction device. Swappable with a tablet or a phone or a television or a game console.

Not gonna lie, I stopped reading after this. No one thinks a PC can be swapped with a television and have feature parity. You're listing off devices that are and have always been marketed as specialised devices. A games console is made primarily for gaming, no one is trying to run OpenOffice on their PS5. And I don't even need to go into how restrictive TV operating systems are, but again, no one expects to be able to have a TV without a computer and be able to run any program on it.

We must ALL resist the urge

lol.

Please don't get me wrong by the way, I'm not saying Wayland is perfect. Far from it. There is a LOT in this Gist that I fully agree with.

Part of the blame for Wayland's instability, is also on the fault of app developers being lazy and not supporting the new thing (Discord -- looking at you! There are third party clients out there that support Wayland screen-sharing perfectly, but Discord hasn't bothered to support it!). But one could also argue that it's a lot of the blame lies on Wayland for not being backwards compatible.

My argument is only that Wayland's existence comes from the fact that there are limitations in X11 that are not easy to workaround.

@mattatobin

I won't NEED to rely on stock as-is rhel9 until redhat decides to prematurely cancel that too..

I know really well what you mean. Fedora KDE SIG went full-on jihad on Xorg, but were then shown their place.

Part of the blame for Wayland's instability, is also on the fault of app developers being lazy

The fault of app developers being tired of the war of compositers, of the incompatibilities between them, among other things.

@aki-k Yeah and I know the man largely responsible, my former friend.

I don't see why Wayland MUST exist in exclusion of X11 as a standalone display server.

@AnnieTheEagle Are you completely disconnected and have not seen how the average computer user is just a pda/smartphone or game console user or television subscriber who wants to scale up and those are the users who the companies think are the only ones important and when it comes to their newer smartphones and game consoles and televisions they stop caring about computers. Why when this does all they need and they don't have to THINK or BOTHER with a regular computer.

And you know what? That was fine.. up until NOT doing that was considered a crime worthy of being attacked for. I have been personally attacked with equivalent outrage for my choices and opinions on technology for years now as if I spat out a constant string of racial slurs. The word "legacy" spat with such venom and a repeated meme of "old and insecure" without any actual basis are common responses normalized to the point where I use them as well.. Until someone attaches a political motivation then its all fucked.

@mattatobin Neal Gompa, right?

@mattatobin

@AnnieTheEagle Are you completely disconnected and have not seen how the average computer user is just a pda/smartphone or game console user or television subscriber

My point wasn't about the average computer user. My point is that they don't expect those devices to be as customisable or usecase-covering as a desktop PC. In fact, that's why they prefer these "simpler" devices, because "it just works"

That's why Apple is worth over a trillion dollars! It just "works" (mostly... as long as you do it our way and only our approved way... and pay an absurd premium for devices we'll no longer support in 3-4 years and force you to buy another one! And don't even think about repairing it yourself!)

@aki-k Don't attack people in the KDE-SIG, render them irrelevant as they grow naturally old.. and insecure. Better fate for em ;)

@AnnieTheEagle I am sorry for coming off more hostile than I intended. It just irks me, alot, that the majority of people who use a computer either don't actually need one or want to overwrite everything with their god damned cell phone. I had hoped as more people used computer technology that it would elevate their interest in it and the world as a whole.

But the world isn't elevated it is just automated more with computer control and the vast majority just want the surface service and appliance stuff they are supplementing or replacing their older service and appliance stuff with and THEN it becomes wrong to want more than that or something older or something completely different. If not the service and feature offered last month removed in the new version or update.

@mattatobin What do you mean attack? He is the one who wanted Xorg gone from Fedora 40 Plasma Spin.

https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347

Are you saying people shouldn't talk about Lennart Poettering?

@AnnieTheEagle

These features have uses, screen tearing can be quite annoying and standard V-sync doesn't solve the problem if whatever you're doing doesn't reach the FPS needed to reach V-sync.

Whaaaat? V-Sync completely eliminates the screen-tearing. VRR has no effect on screen-tearing, this technology was invented for smoother frame rates and it has its own limitations. You want some weird stuff, but you don't understand how technology works.

@aki-k No, I am covering my ass because people have gone out of their way to attack people in my name .. either because they agree or because it will damage me in return I could never figure out because people were acting in my name but without my orders and knowledge. Been done before and in todays world it could happen again.

But yes, He is one responsible, with the reasoning that its even more of a dick move to pull xorg from KDE users mid-stream.. as if Fedora had a stable release or feature set. Its antithetical to how they build the system. But as a member of KDE project he is just pathfinding seeing just if users will broadly accept KDE without X11. With Wayland being forced down every corporate-relevant distro and the rest following cause they see little other option but Kudo is worse because he just wants what Gnome has and for KDE to be the selected winner..

It's another flavor swap.. Gnome and GTK4+ with KDE and QT6+ everything else remains the same.. the freedesktop nonsense his seat on the xorg board and xorg killing x11 save for xwayland until they decide all X11 software is too old and insecure and not worth supporting and xwayland dies too.. and everything will suck except with KDE deficiencies in functioning tech instead of Gnome deficiency in functioning style and experience.

tl;dr You wanna see how bad Wayland can get for everyone.. Put it in the hands of Kudo and KDE. Which is effectively Google and Apple anyway. That is who he actually serves.

@Monsterovich Do I understand how this works? Likely yes but with huge gaps. I do know X11 tears by default I run picom, a compositor, fixes it right up no more tearing. I can play vidja games and it plays fine and shake windows around all i want no tearing I see.

picom --vsync --backend glx

@Monsterovich

Whaaaat? V-Sync completely eliminates the screen-tearing. VRR has no effect on screen-tearing, this technology was invented for smoother frame rates and it has its own limitations. You want some weird stuff, but you don't understand how technology works.

I never said V-Sync doesn't solve tearing? In fact, I said it does...

But Variable Refresh Rate has benefits over V-Sync which some gamers prefer. My personal setup I don't particularly care, I personally just used V-Sync on X11 and never saw any noticeable tearing, as if a game can even reach frame rates above 240 (the refresh rate of my monitor), then I'd probably prefer that V-Sync keeps it down at a stable 240 FPS, rather than rendering far more than that and wasting resources.

I don't use Wayland for reasons totally outside of VRR and V-Sync (I use applications that just simply refuse to work on Wayland, and that is a dealbreaker for me -- and given these are legacy apps with little support, I doubt they will be ported to Wayland any time soon), but these are complaints I have seen from other people who are (after the success of Proton and the Steam Deck) keen on getting into gaming on Linux.

There is NO gaming on Linux outside a few titles and temporary efforts.. This is Windows Gaming on Linux which is not the same thing and I could do without in its entirety.

Because that is ALL the Windows or Mac user or service consumer is supposed to care about.. Does it run Windows Games and the Web and has digital rights management and telemetry.. THAT IS ALL anyone gives a shit about. No one cares about any specific user's experience so long as the majority of people without a choice don't ever speak up about it and keep paying in money, data, or loyalty with defensive and offensive support if not all of the above.

I am just tired of it all. It isn't getting me a working display server or good software or a pre-2010s windows experience or acceptable replacement better suited to me.. I am gonna have to assemble that with what is available then learn how to make it better.. I literally give zero fucks about computer video games or how well someone can run a game not made for the OS it is being run on and won't until someone gives a shit about my needs and wants.

@mattatobin

There is NO gaming on Linux outside a few titles and temporary efforts.. This is Windows Gaming on Linux which is not the same thing and I could do without in its entirety.

This is just arguing semantics at this point... if people want to play games on Linux, whether they're Linux games, or Windows games through Wine (a lot of games have native Linux builds now!), it doesn't matter.

As a Linux user, you should be glad more people want to try out the OS, you should be welcoming...

I am just tired of it all.

This reads as "My thing is getting ruined by all these gamer peasants! >:(, how dare they enjoy MY operating system!". And at this point we're way off topic here, so I'm not going to continue this discussion anymore.

looks like SSR is abandoned at this point ☹️

do people actively need xkill? I've honestly never needed it, just killed things from the terminal

looks like SSR is abandoned at this point ☹️

do people actively need xkill? I've honestly never needed it, just killed things from the terminal

xkill is a use full tool, but yes its not needed but its still faster for when you dont know the name of the programme or have the pid, or dont know who owns the window

There is NO gaming on Linux outside a few titles and temporary efforts.. This is Windows Gaming on Linux which is not the same thing and I could do without in its entirety.

that is just false

Then where did I get 0ad?

@zarlo save for Steam and Windows Games on Linux and of course the classic linux and unix games.. Just how extensive IS the triple-A title selection outside things based on Valve Source Engine? Cause I doubt it is very many..

Besides, why should anyone make a game for linux when the windows version will work through steam.. maybe..

The derailing kicks hard in this gist.

Games derail technical discussion like all consumption-media issues do. I wish people would be half as demanding for basic functionality not 3d games at a thousand fps at 32k definition.

I don't know what to even say, it's such a copium... Today - if you use openSuse Tumbleweed, Arch or probably even latest release of Fedora in order to have latest packages - using wayland is quite comfortable. I'm not sure about KDE (only know it works) but latest Gnome, Sway or Hyprland works amazingly and we have Cosmic Desktop somewhere on horizon too. About apps - majority of those well known apps either just works or have replacement for wayland side, it's mostly up to whether OG dev(s) want & have time to make a switch. There's actually quite a lot of developers who decided they either don't want to or no longer have that much time to care about their tools/apps so then others pick up original idea and create wayland counterpart.

If you're average user, you can most likely use pure wayland, not even bother installing xwayland (which is added by default just in case*). I myself use pure wayland sway desktop, only games require xwayland because of wine/proton still being transported to wayland. Oh and yeah, linux supports nowadays quite a few games thanks to proton and realistically you can launch I would say every single game that doesn't has strong anti cheat (like Valorant's rootkit).

I know people still officially writes that things like lock screens or session managers have some trouble and are not officially supported but then you go to places like reddit unixporn and you can see a lot of people just have them working with wayland session so it's more like they're in beta than just not supported.

@amatsagu You act like I am not capable of deciding precisely what I want to run on the systems I select or built.

Even if Wayland worked 100% as advertised either today or originally.. It still wouldn't be acceptable to me. Because its fundamental design and behavior is exactly the shit in Windows I got fed up with and killed any desire to pursue hackintoshs. I specifically want the X Window System. More than that I want it to survive Wayland and even evolve into an X12 or XII* whatever.

*=Mine, minemineminemine--MINE!