Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Wayland.md

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Wayland is broken by design

• A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
• You cannot run applications as root
• You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
• There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
• It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

• MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
• https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
• vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
• obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
• There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
• phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

• jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
• jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

• raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback#149 (comment) ❌ broken since at least Nov 17, 2023 ("window sharing not being available in wlroots derived compositors (such as wayfire)")
• flathub/us.zoom.Zoom#22 Zoom ❌ broken since at least 4 Jan 2019. ("Can not start share, we only support wayland on GNOME with Ubuntu (17, 18), Fedora (25 to 29), Debian 9, openSUSE Leap 15, Arch Linux"). No word about non-GNOME!
• https://community.zoom.com/t5/Meetings/Screensharing-only-works-on-GNOME-wayland-when-it-should-work-on/m-p/64823 Zoom ❌ Still broken as of 24 Jun 2022. ("... we only support Wayland on Gnome with Ubuntu 17 and above, Fedora 25 and above, Debian 9 and above ...")
• probonopd/Zoom.AppImage#8 ❌ broken since 1 Oct 2022 Zoom: "You need PulseAudio 1.0 and above to support audio share" on a system that uses pipewire-pulseaudio

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

• https://gitlab.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu/-/issues/116 ❌ broken since 24 Aug 2018 ("because the lack of the Gtk+ Wayland support for the Global Menu")

• https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=424485 ❌ Still broken as of late 2023 ("I am also still not seeing GTK global menus on wayland. They appear on the applications themselves, wasting a lot of space.")

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

• https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ ("it uses global window IDs, which don’t exist in a Wayland world... no global menu on Wayland, I thought, not without significant re-engineering effort"). KDE had to do additional work to work around it. And it still did not work:

• https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385880 ("When using the Plasma-Wayland session, the global menu does not work.")

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

• https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ ❌ broke non-KDE platformplugins. As a result, global menus now need _KDE_NET_WM_APPMENU_OBJECT_PATH which only the KDE platformplugin sets, leaving everyone else in the dark

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

• https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

• https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/redshift ❌ broken ("Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature")

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

• albertlauncher/albert#309 ❌ broken since 7 Jan 2017 ("This is a security measure, but has the side effect of preventing applications from registering their own global hotkeys") YouTube video by René Rebe

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

• https://cfenollosa.com/blog/fed-up-with-the-mac-i-spent-six-months-with-a-linux-laptop-the-grass-is-not-greener-on-the-other-side.html ❌ broken since at least 02 Apr 2021 ("Screen tearing with the intel driver. Come on. This was solved on xorg and now with Wayland it's back.")

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

• https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

• https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

• https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

• https://phabricator.kde.org/D16648#470609 ("Wayland clients can't raise or activate themselves"), ❌ broken since May 27 2019

Wayland breaks RescueTime

• https://help.rescuetime.com/article/117-common-linux-issues ("One of the features of Wayland is that it prevents apps from doing precisely what RescueTime is trying to do—track activity in other windows.") ❌ broken since June 3, 2021

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

• https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

• Screen recording and casting
• Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
• Global shortcuts
• System tray
• Input Method support/editor (IME)
• Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
• Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
• Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
• HDR/deep color support
• VRR (variable refresh rate)
• Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

• https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

• https://kb.nomachine.com/TR03S10126?s=wayland ❌ broken since 2021-03-09 ("The session becomes unresponsive once logged-in to the Wayland desktop")

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

• AppImage/AppImageKit#1221 (comment) ❌ broken since 2022-20-15 ("Espanso built for X11 will not work on Wayland due to xclip. Wayland asks for wl-copy")

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

• https://github.com/linuxhw/hw-probe-pyqt5-gui/commit/eb2d6e5145fb8571414bda57676084b7f13b94e5#diff-23cb15995f1502beebb38433bfa83204a5f45b376eaf88e2e41a0d8a1cd44722R290 ❌ broken since 2022-04-09 ("SUDO_ASKPASS doesn't work on Wayland currently, so piping the password")

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

• PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

• "Unfortunately not all Wayland compositors support DRM leasing" https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/18A4-1E10-8A94-3DDA - "not all" highlights one of the fundamental problems with Wayland - there is fragmentation

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

• ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux#6148 ❌ broken since 2019-03-17

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

• Wayland breaks window icons when no .desktop files are used: Seemingly Wayland requires developers to use the xdg-shell protocol, which in turn requires developers to use reverse-DNS application IDs and set_app_id, which causes the icon to be loaded from the .desktop file. This is serious breakage, as not all desktop environments (for good reasons) use .desktop files. A display server should have no business in this, as this belongs into the domain of the desktop environment. https://community.kde.org/Guidelines_and_HOWTOs/Wayland_Porting_Notes#Application_Icon, https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/52 ❌ broken since 2021-06-21

• Qt setWindowIcon has no effect on KDE/Wayland https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-101427 ("Resolution: Out of scope", meaning it cannot be fixed in Qt, "Using QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb works, though", meaning that if you disable Wayland then it works) ❌ broken since 2022-03-03

• LibrePCB developer: "Btw it's just one of several problems we have with Wayland, therefore we still enforce LibrePCB to run with XWayland. It's a shame, but I feel totally helpless against such decisions made by Wayland and using XWayland is the only reasonable option (which even works perfectly fine)..." https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/52#note_2155885

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

• On Raspberry Pi OS (which is running a Wayland session by default), dragging a file out of a zip file onto the desktop fails with "XDirectSave failed."
• The same seems to be true in Gnome: https://discourse.gnome.org/t/xdnddirectsave-and-wayland/2954

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

• Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Workarounds

• Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
• Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

• Asahi Linux enforces Wayland for ARM-based Macs: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110354541574112092
• Fedora enforces Wayland for KDE Plasma: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6#Why_drop_the_X11_session_with_the_Plasma_6_upgrade?
• Red Hat enforces Wayland for RHEL:https://www.redhat.com/de/blog/rhel-10-plans-wayland-and-xorg-server

History

• 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
• End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
• Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

References

• Dudemanguy's Musings, Wayland Isn't Going to Save The Linux Desktop
• Chris Titus Tech: Wayland vs Xorg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_MBJcD3SFI
• tildearrow: did somebody say "anti-Wayland horseshit"?
• pcsx2: CI/Linux: Disable Wayland and spring cleaning
• Testing SCREEN RECORDERS on Linux Mint Wayland
• ProtonPenguin: Wayland Breaks Everything

@zarlo And you offered nothing of substance.

---

EDIT: Anyway as fun as this is I am out until I get some stuff done. Please don't highlight me unless I chime back in.. Least for a little while.

X11 > Wayland
Can assure you that X11 can still be optimized to be better than Wayland, will never lose hope on X11.

I saw someone post about this cesspool on reddit and lemme tell you I am glad I got the popcorn ready for the comments section because this is funny as hell.

@chaNcharge i've been replying in this gist for years now. It just rinse and repeat. Same arguments from wayland "side", and same laments of users complaining about it being worse than x. It gets boring quickly - i typically reply once a year, in form of status update.

@zarlo I already live in a good one. Don't need another one; Nor I need to replace my fine 1970 Ford Mustang for Tesla (This is ref. to x and wayland).

On a positive note, it seems like setting icons on windows will start to get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

I saw someone post about this cesspool on reddit and lemme tell you I am glad I got the popcorn ready for the comments section because this is funny as hell.

@chaNcharge
Asserting superiority through condescension undermines dialogue's integrity and credibility. Embracing a 'me superior, they inferior' dichotomy obstructs substantive discourse and hampers societal progress, often laden with palpable animosity.

I saw someone post about this cesspool on reddit and lemme tell you I am glad I got the popcorn ready for the comments section because this is funny as hell.

@chaNcharge Asserting superiority through condescension undermines dialogue's integrity and credibility. Embracing a 'me superior, they inferior' dichotomy obstructs substantive discourse and hampers societal progress, often laden with palpable animosity.

That is kind of the point here though, there simply is no discourse. This whole gist is pointless because none of the stakeholders are involved and the people that are seem not interested in creating their own distros or starting to maintain X11. So trolling + the "popcorn ready" scenario is pretty much the only thing this gist is good for. The only thing outside of that is the occasional legitimate question that deserves a proper answer.

@Consolatis

This whole gist is pointless because none of the stakeholders are involved

You (I don't mean you personally) will be promptly banned because people can't take criticism, like the Fedora KDE SIG.

Wayland breaks xclip

Really? This is a program created for X11 and should not run on Wayland. Almost all the points that I read here are false facts to supposedly lower the reputation of Wayland. This is a fanatic's list, nothing more.

Wayland breaks window managers

From Wikipedia: NetWM is an X Window System (!!!) standard for the communication between window managers and applications.

All I see here is "Wayland is crap because software that was written exclusively for X11 doesn't work on it"

Thing is, existing software is written for X11. Now this Wayland thing gets forced upon us, but we want to just keep using the software we have always been using. Thus, Wayland breaks what we have been using for decades. In some cases, without even offering a drop-in replacement! I am still looking for e.g., wkill, a 1:1 xkill replacement. Wayland seems to operate like they were starting "greenfield", whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as a X11 successor.

I saw someone post about this cesspool on reddit and lemme tell you I am glad I got the popcorn ready for the comments section because this is funny as hell.

@chaNcharge Asserting superiority through condescension undermines dialogue's integrity and credibility. Embracing a 'me superior, they inferior' dichotomy obstructs substantive discourse and hampers societal progress, often laden with palpable animosity.

That is kind of the point here though, there simply is no discourse. This whole gist is pointless because none of the stakeholders are involved and the people that are seem not interested in creating their own distros or starting to maintain X11. So trolling + the "popcorn ready" scenario is pretty much the only thing this gist is good for. The only thing outside of that is the occasional legitimate question that deserves a proper answer.

While the prevailing tone of this virtual assembly may indeed be characterized by frivolity or sardonic commentary, its intrinsic worth lies in its capacity to serve as a psychological and communal outlet. This platform, therefore, fulfills an essential role by facilitating a form of interaction that, although not directly instrumental in achieving technical advancements, is undeniably valuable in its psychosocial contributions to its participants.

[..] this virtual assembly [..] is undeniably valuable in its psychosocial contributions to its participants.

Steering hate and artificially creating two opposing sides fighting against each other is never a good psychosocial contribution to anyone (other than maybe scientists studying it). I guess the idea is "Let out your crap here so you don't let it out somewhere else" but that just leads to more crap everywhere.

they try to position Wayland as a X11 successor.

To position it as a successor to X11, Wayland would have to have at least some codebase from X11 (imo), which as far as I know it doesn't. And as for me, Wayland shouldn’t have anything in common with X11, since X is an ancient rotten thing that needs to be gotten rid of (and adapted, not whining) at the first opportunity.

Also, the problem of application X or Y not working on Wayland is not in Wayland itself, but in the interest of developers to implement Wayland support.

[..] this virtual assembly [..] is undeniably valuable in its psychosocial contributions to its participants.

Steering hate and artificially creating two opposing sides fighting against each other is never a good psychosocial contribution to anyone (other than maybe scientists studying it). I guess the idea is "Let out your crap here so you don't let it out somewhere else" but that just leads to more crap everywhere.

"Hate" is a strong word. Workflows broke because it being pushed as the new default.
Even now, everybody I know taking gaming seriously goes back to X11 because Wayland seems laggy.
The proper wording for the emotion people feel here would be "betrayal" and "disappointment".

It doesn't matter if it is called X11 or Wayland. People just want their stuff working and not randomly break.
That's all.

because it being pushed as the new default

I'm unaffected by any defaults. What do I even still do in this thread?

I'm lazy even to upgrade my system for many months already. Seems I became senile (or just severely depressed) and it's time to move from Debian Testing to Debian Stable on the next freeze.

Actually, I have always been like that. My Windows XP stays unupgraded since its installation in 2010, as Windows updates break binary patches of system files. My 16 years old feature phone still has the first R6AD001 firmware versions, even though a few updates very released during its 3 years of official support; I have never ever flashed it. I don't understand why GNU/Linux should be an exception.

Also, the problem of application X or Y not working on Wayland is not in Wayland itself, but in the interest of developers to implement Wayland support.

Exactly. Developers of most applications and desktop environments haven't asked for Wayland to appear and expect them to do stuff just so that things work under Wayland that have worked before. Just ask the author of just about any screen recording application.

@shvedes

"Wayland is crap because software that was written exclusively for X11 doesn't work on it"

Because it intentionally lacks analogs for X11 concepts.

It's just like iOS staying away from sharing files over Bluetooth. No matter how much do marketers assure that sharing files over Bluetooth is evil and not needed when you have magnificent AirDrop, iTunes or whatever, the reality stays intact: iOS is crap.

@mattatobin

I love gtk2 but be realistic.. If i was gonna go with an older toolkit I may as well just reuse Trinity's QT3 ..

Qt lacks Emacs keybindings and has an unusable Windoze-like file dialog (might be resolved by backporting portals into GTK+2/Qt3 though). Also, bound to C++ thus having problems with bindings to other languages. GTK+2 apps can be created in Perl, PHP, Ruby, whatever.

Also, the only thing really unacceptable about GTK3 is Gnome's specific UX design

No, GTK+3 has an awful rendering performance, especially without acceleration, if compared to GTK+2.

@lukefromdc

Actually not impossible, but you need to build gtk3 with the gtk3-classic patchset or at least those patches concerning CSD. The results will look a lot more like GTK2 and you even get back the ability to stripe treeviews if you include that part of the patches. I use them all. This takes out things like hardcoding CSD on dialog windows in wayland

CSD are not a problem per se, apps with a classic layout can still be easily made in GTK+3, which MATE apps demonstrate vividly. And if you really insist, CSD apps can be done in virtually any toolkit, for example, Winamp clones like BMP, Audacious, QMMP had CSD decades ago.

The GTK/CSD issue in wayland isn't CSD apps, rather it's the fact that GNOME hadcoded CSD as a default for such things as dialogs and filechoosers in wayland in GTK3. Easy enough to patch back out, but a problem for distros. Less so with GNOME moving on to GTK4 and MATE sticking with GTK3 though. Distros will be able to use the gtk3-classic patchset without worrying about what GNOME apps look like, since this will have no effect on GTK4 apps. Thus we can have MATE looking like MATE and GNOME looking like GNOME on the same machine, from the same root partition, even in wayland

@mattatobin

I love gtk2 but be realistic.. If i was gonna go with an older toolkit I may as well just reuse Trinity's QT3 ..

Qt lacks Emacs keybindings and has an unusable Windoze-like file dialog (might be resolved by backporting portals into GTK+2/Qt3 though). Also, bound to C++ thus having problems with bindings to other languages. GTK+2 apps can be created in Perl, PHP, Ruby, whatever.

Also, the only thing really unacceptable about GTK3 is Gnome's specific UX design

No, GTK+3 has an awful rendering performance, especially without acceleration, if compared to GTK+2.

@lukefromdc

Actually not impossible, but you need to build gtk3 with the gtk3-classic patchset or at least those patches concerning CSD. The results will look a lot more like GTK2 and you even get back the ability to stripe treeviews if you include that part of the patches. I use them all. This takes out things like hardcoding CSD on dialog windows in wayland

CSD are not a problem per se, apps with a classic layout can still be easily made in GTK+3, which MATE apps demonstrate vividly. And if you really insist, CSD apps can be done in virtually any toolkit, for example, Winamp clones like BMP, Audacious, QMMP had CSD decades ago.

Because it intentionally lacks analogs for X11 concepts.

And that is a big part of why it breaks stuff so badly. It assumes people want to change a working system. But most users don't want a working system to be broken.

CSD are not a problem per se

They are. Client-side decorations give designers more freedom than they can handle; an inconsistent system with reduced usability is the result. We can observe this with recent Mac, Windows, and Gnome.
With Client-side decorations you get abominations like the bottom window, where the window title bar is crippled to the point that you can't even know the name of the application from looking at it anymore. Way worse than Windows 3.1 (top window).

Thus we can have MATE looking like MATE and GNOME looking like GNOME on the same machine, from the same root partition, even in wayland

Welp, Canonical made big efforts to achieve uniform look regardless of the toolkit, but Shuttleworth's money dwindled. Enjoy GNOME turning into new Enlightenment, or GNUStep, or whatever. And just stay away. From KDE, ideally, too. Seems like it's all doomed, Gtk, Qt, whatever, who does still use it… everything nowadays is CLI, web or mobile. Making desktop software makes sense out of nostalgia and nothing more. Serious professional software like Blender or LMMS has its own toolkits anyway.

an inconsistent system

Who is supposed to enforce this consistency? CPC? Shoot those who stand out? How do you even imagine this implemented? Projects like Haiku achieve this only due to being pet projects out of contact with reality with a limited set of developers who all do software out of enthusiasm.

you can't even know the name of the application

macOS and GNOME users don't have this problem because they see the name of the focused application in the top panel anyway.

@bodqhrohro

What do I even still do in this thread?

Click on 'Unsubscribe' at the top of the gist.

Just ask the author of just about any screen recording application

Well, how about OBS, which is works perfectly in modern DEs and even WM? Through xdg-desktop-portal you can easily share your screen. Sometimes you can even do without this and use xwaylandvideobridge, so I don’t see a problem with this. You will probably say why is all this necessary when everything works on X11 without tweaks and you will be right, but we should not forget that Wayland is not the same age as X11, and this thing has been developing very actively lately.

Just ask the author of just about any screen recording application

Well, how about OBS, which is works perfectly in modern DEs and even WM? Through xdg-desktop-portal you can easily share your screen. Sometimes you can even do without this and use xwaylandvideobridge, so I don’t see a problem with this. You will probably say why is all this necessary when everything works on X11 without tweaks and you will be right, but we should not forget that Wayland is not the same age as X11, and this thing has been developing very actively lately.

OBS? Relies on uvcvideo, and the webcams (except Logitech) usually have no proper implementation of it.
Not to mention, for virtual camera, I had to use a hack... Like, without sudo modprobe v4l2loopback devices=1 video_nr=10 card_label="OBS Cam" exclusive_caps=1 it doesn't even show up.
It's pretty broken!

@aki-k I would do long ago if I didn't want to keep track of the thread and some persons didn't delete their messages so an instant e-mail copy is a way to fight their reluctance.

And I hope I get my hooves on wayland-bites again (as no expert is willing to help with completing the table anyway). But why?.. I don't care much about Wayland anyway. And I don't encounter the propagandist LOR trolls anymore who ignited the butthurt in the first place. Those trolls were targeting lamers primarily anyway.

I asked not to be highlighted for a while. Oh well.

@lukefromdc I dunno about you but I haven't had a graphics card with 2d acceleration hardware for a long time and it upsets me that I don't. The tradeoff for more modern toolkit that isn't completely worthless vs 20 year old toolkits is that you will have to accept an 3d accelerated reality no matter what or simply deal with tearing and slow paints. X11 should be accelerating video whenever possible.

Now this may upset people but understand and read carefully the following.. I don't have a practical need to care about X11's network transparency capabilities but I have a desire to find a reason to care cause it sounds cool as shit if one can get it working. Exactly the kind of thing I'd want.. BUT up till now I don't have a practical need for it. Maybe x11 users should do a better job of explaining how to do these cool things, come together document it, figure out the latest gotchas etc.. Would be a lot closer to putting your money where your mouth is when that chestnut is seeming the only thing people universally repeat vs wayland.

I have my own ignorance of just what X11 is fully capable of and the ways it has been bent to do even more except my ignorance is of specifics not the potential or direct capability existing over all. Most waylandists and converts either don't care or don't know they should care about these things.. Playing right in to Wayland acceptance. They are not informed of what they are loosing and the painful thing is even if they were most wouldn't care. New users which is the goal of this will also not know what they could have had instead or what they can still have..

There is your social construct as open source. Socially being vilified for X11 use is already a thing. Imagine how much hate will happen if resistance to Wayland grows. Imagine what people will say to a new linux user on the brink of going back to Windows because Wayland and Gnome 48778.3 sucks so badly.. How much hate will be spewed when some distro user decides to just run xorg because it just works for them in a few years.

How much hate was generated externally and over time internally at Pale Moon for the simple crime of forking Firefox and being independent and wanting to have something. Even before I showed up and started asking difficult questions and doing things deemed impossible by the very people taking capabilities away and generally making that shit way more legit than it should ever have been considered. It sure hasn't done me any favors. Yet, those little Daleks persist even if they nearly exterminated me. Well they ARE Daleks what do you expect?

At this point I am about ready to renounce my hard earned status as a Linux user and all linux constructs and just start considering linux as raw material for a custom os. Avoids the bs of the linux community.

And if you want to say that all that nonsense is just isolated to the Mozillasphere and the very edges of the linux community.. Weeeeeellll.. SystemD.

without sudo modprobe v4l2loopback devices=1 video_nr=10 card_label="OBS Cam" exclusive_caps=1 it doesn't even show up

First of all, you can apply this tweak permanently in /etc/modprobe.d/. Here's my example:

# /etc/modprobe.d/v4l2loopback.conf
options v4l2loopback video_nr=0 exclusive_caps=1 max_openers=1 devices=1 card_label="OBS Virtual Camera"

This option allows me to avoid having to manually load the kernel module and enter a password when enabling the virtual camera in OBS itself.

Yes, Wayland has problems, but. As I said above, this is a very rapidly developing project, and I hope all your problems will be fixed soon. For me (I repeat, for me personally) Wayland works great, it covers all my needs and I don’t experience any inconvenience at all.

and here I go again... People should be configuring and building their kernel with the code they need built in. Pre-built kernels are only good for install media and building custom kernels.

without sudo modprobe v4l2loopback devices=1 video_nr=10 card_label="OBS Cam" exclusive_caps=1 it doesn't even show up

First of all, you can apply this tweak permanently in /etc/modprobe.d/. Here's my example:

# /etc/modprobe.d/v4l2loopback.conf
options v4l2loopback video_nr=0 exclusive_caps=1 max_openers=1 devices=1 card_label="OBS Virtual Camera"

This option allows me to avoid having to manually load the kernel module and enter a password when enabling the virtual camera in OBS itself.

Yes, Wayland has problems, but. As I said above, this is a very rapidly developing project, and I hope all your problems will be fixed soon. For me (I repeat, for me personally) Wayland works great, it covers all my needs and I don’t experience any inconvenience at all.

Well. Over time, if I do not document every step, I end up with having a system with no reproducability. But fortunately, I can make this file possibly part of a git repo.

At what point is modifying someone elses linux distro more work than just building it yourself how you want?

At what point is modifying someone elses linux distro more work than just building it yourself how you want?

I mean if you are using arch, then of course you need to configure everything, but if it is a fedora, for example, then I guess, everything (including vcam) should work out of the box.

At what point do you just decide you have to make so many changes so many compromises to get a working system that by the time you do it all it is a very different beast from stock whatever do you just have to throw your hands up and say it would be so much easier if it was just built or configured this way from the start?

I mean if you are using arch, then of course you need to configure everything, but if it is a fedora, for example, then I guess, everything (including vcam) should work out of the box.

Fedora got that super annoying apparmor thingy that you need to do a Dr. Dr. Professor for.

I wish you had quoted my final edit cause that is the core of the two mashed up but related thoughts.

Fedora works out the box if you use a livecd and that livecd works out the box and you never update it unless it is broken out the box then an update might fix it but bust 10 other things. There is a fuckin reason I want off the Fedora Train.. It's gonna crash and when it does no one will care because it didn't crash for them, yet.

Fedora doesn't test everything they produce. They test only critical-paths. Yes, I am aware of what the comment says. It was written years ago.

  <!--
    Note: The critical-path-* groups are used to identify the packages
    that are critical to the health of the distro. For details see:
    https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Critical_path_package
    @core is also considered part of the Critical Path.
  -->
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-anaconda</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (anaconda)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for installing Fedora with anaconda</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">anaconda</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">anaconda-install-env-deps</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">anaconda-webui</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-apps</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Applications)</_name>
    <_description>A set of applications that are considered critical path</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="default">firefox</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-base</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Base)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the shared platform for Critical Path functionality on all Fedora spins</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <!--
        @core is already in the critical path, there is no need to duplicate things from @core here
      -->
      <packagereq type="mandatory">dbus-broker</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">dracut</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">initial-setup</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kernel</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">NetworkManager</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-build</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Build)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for building Fedora packages</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gcc-c++</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">mock</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">mock-core-configs</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">redhat-rpm-config</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">rpm-build</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-compose</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Compose)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for building Fedora deliverables</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gnome-kiosk</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kiwi-cli</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kiwi-systemdeps</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">livesys-scripts</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">lorax</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">mock</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">mock-core-configs</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">pungi</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">selinux-policy</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">setup</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-deepin-desktop</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Deepin desktop)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the Deepin desktop</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">deepin-desktop</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-gnome</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (GNOME)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the GNOME desktop</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">bash-color-prompt</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">dconf</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gdm</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gnome-classic-session</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gnome-control-center</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gnome-initial-setup</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gnome-shell</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gnome-terminal</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">gvfs-fuse</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="aarch64,ppc64le,x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-amdgpu</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="aarch64,ppc64le,x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-ati</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-evdev</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="aarch64,ppc64le,x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-fbdev</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-intel</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-libinput</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="aarch64,ppc64le,x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-nouveau</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="aarch64,ppc64le,x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-qxl</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="x86_64" type="mandatory">xorg-x11-drv-vesa</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xorg-x11-server-Xorg</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xorg-x11-xauth</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xorg-x11-xinit</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="default">avahi</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="default">gnome-bluetooth</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="default">gnome-session-xsession</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="default">gnome-software</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="default">nautilus</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="default">toolbox</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-kde</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (KDE)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the KDE desktop</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">bluedevil</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kactivitymanagerd</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kdecoration</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kinfocenter</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kscreen</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kscreenlocker</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kwayland-integration</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">kwin</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">layer-shell-qt</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-breeze</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-desktop</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-discover</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-integration</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-nm</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-systemsettings</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-thunderbolt</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">plasma-workspace</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">polkit-kde</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">qt6-qtwayland</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">sddm</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-lxde</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (LXDE)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the LXDE desktop</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">lxde-common</packagereq>
      <!-- specify this because otherwise xfce4-notifyd wins -->
      <packagereq type="default">notification-daemon</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-lxqt</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (LXQt)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the LXQt desktop</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">lxqt-session</packagereq>
      <!-- specify this because otherwise xfce4-notifyd wins -->
      <packagereq type="default">notification-daemon</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-server</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Server)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the Server edition</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq>bind-dyndb-ldap</packagereq>
      <packagereq>cockpit</packagereq>
      <packagereq>freeipa-server</packagereq>
      <packagereq>freeipa-server-dns</packagereq>
      <packagereq>freeipa-server-trust-ad</packagereq>
      <packagereq>opendnssec</packagereq>
      <packagereq>postgresql</packagereq>
      <packagereq>realmd</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-standard</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (standard)</_name>
    <!-- not all deliverables include @standard, critical-path-base only includes stuff from @base -->
    <_description>A set of packages that relate to Critical Path functionality and are in standard but not base</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">bash-color-prompt</packagereq>
      <packagereq arch="aarch64,ppc64le,x86_64" type="mandatory">fprintd-pam</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>
  <group>
    <id>critical-path-xfce</id>
    <_name>Critical Path (Xfce)</_name>
    <_description>A set of packages that provide the Critical Path functionality for the Xfce desktop</_description>
    <default>false</default>
    <uservisible>false</uservisible>
    <packagelist>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xfce4-session</packagereq>
      <packagereq type="mandatory">xfce4-settings</packagereq>
    </packagelist>
  </group>

@shvedes

Yes, Wayland has problems, but. As I said above, this is a very rapidly developing project, and I hope all your problems will be fixed soon.

Very rapidly developing project?
How many years has it been? 16? Wayland is almost legal in that sense of age.
(if we compare since public release, x only has only 8 years ~> sure it has more non-public releases, but all the work public actually uses has been made in some 10-12 years)

I wish you had quoted my final edit cause that is the core of the two mashed up but related thoughts.

Fedora works out the box if you use a livecd and that livecd works out the box and you never update it unless it is broken out the box then an update might fix it but bust 10 other things. There is a fuckin reason I want off the Fedora Train.. It's gonna crash and when it does no one will care because it didn't crash for them, yet.

To be honest, I don't know what are you talking about. In my case fedora working flawlessly, no matter what machine I run it on.

@shvedes

Yes, Wayland has problems, but. As I said above, this is a very rapidly developing project, and I hope all your problems will be fixed soon.

Very rapidly developing project? How many years has it been? 16? Wayland is almost legal in that sense of age. (if we compare since public release, x only has only 8 years ~> sure it has more non-public releases, but all the work public actually uses has been made in some 10-12 years)

I said that this project has been developing very fast lately. When I say lately, I mean the last few years. For example, two years ago I definitely wouldn't have been able to use it. I tried, but there were too many issues that weren't compatible with my use case, but now it's a daily driver for me. I draw conclusions from my experience

I build mid-tier AMD machines with AMD Graphics. This is pre-pandemic mid-tier with a post-pandemic video card the previous one was RX560. Tell me why Wayland doesn't work properly. WHy am I getting 3d graphical glitches that look like a flat surface with a "camera" pointing at its surface. Why do I get blocky glitchy artifacts on Gnome and KDE on secondary monitors. Why does it run like shit, freeze, stutter, wholey and globally hard lock up to the point where I can't switch VTs. X11 used to do this 20 years ago and typically doesn't anymore without a direct reason behind it.. With wayland it could be anything everything and nothing because the other person doesn't have those issues or is simply lying their ass off because if they don't they will be shat on and blackballed if not outright cancelled.

So let me say what other people refuse to outright and matter of fact.

Wayland.. is not good enough.

I build mid-tier AMD machines with AMD Graphics. This is pre-pandemic mid-tier with a post-pandemic video card the previous one was RX560. Tell me why Wayland doesn't work properly. WHy am I getting 3d graphical glitches that look like a flat surface with a "camera" pointing at its surface. Why do I get blocky glitchy artifacts on Gnome and KDE on secondary monitors. Why does it run like shit, freeze, stutter, wholey and globally hard lock up to the point where I can't switch VTs. X11 used to do this 20 years ago and typically doesn't anymore without a direct reason behind it.. With wayland it could be anything everything and nothing because the other person doesn't have those issues or is simply lying their ass off because if they don't they will be shat on and blackballed if not outright cancelled.

So let me say what other people refuse to outright and matter of fact.

Wayland.. is not good enough.

Honestly, I don't know why you have so many problems. The only thing I would probably like to see soon is a fully functioning driver for Wine, global shortcuts and native apps (krita, gimp, etc). Also, the problem of scaling XWayland applications lies with XWayland, not with Wayland itself. Everything else has been working fine for me since switching to Wayland, no matter what systems and DE I test.

And it seems to me that our dialogue is developing into a quarrel, which I do not want. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fanatic, I use XOrg on my laptop because it uses less RAM, which is important to me.

And I am using 6700XT, which can make sense for some reason, idk, since for different generations of GPU the driver can be used differently.

I have an 6650XT.

I have an 6650XT.

Well, then as I said I don't know why you facing so many graphical problems, and, unfortunately, I can't help you.

I have an 6650XT.

Well, then as I said I don't know why you facing so many graphical problems, and, unfortunately, I can't help you.

And this is why I have to take matters into my own hands and be a real linux user and do shit my self. That includes my decisions as well and one is to favor if not exclusively use x11 and specific reliable-enough tech.

not sure what's funnier, watching wayland-protocols fighting because of GNOME being petards, boomers fighting over why we should keep 40 yo software around or watching both display servers have their own specific issues, death by a thousand paper-cuts am I right?

not sure what's funnier, watching wayland-protocols fighting because of GNOME being petards, boomers fighting over why we should keep 40 yo software around or watching both display servers have their own specific issues, death by a thousand paper-cuts am I right?

Definitely

@severtheskyline

boomers fighting over why we should keep 40 yo software around

Click 'Unsubscribe' at the top of this gist, young grasshopper.

not sure what's funnier, watching wayland-protocols fighting because of GNOME being petards, boomers fighting over why we should keep 40 yo software around or watching both display servers have their own specific issues, death by a thousand paper-cuts am I right?

Yo! I am too young to be a boomer.

The only conflict for me is when people think they can convince me to give up a goal I have set forth. In this I must proceed regardless else I will just sit around and do nothing for another 2 years. No opposition shall stand against me or be the sole reason any of my endeavors would fail.

Why am I still getting messages for this? I thought I unsubscribed. Anyways, please stop. For your health.

I can't even unsubscribe. I guess I'll get annoyed forever.

@fgclue That is your destiny for being so toxic

? ? ?
How do I unsubscribe twice?? It says I'm not subscribed. Yet me still recieve this.
Stay suffer. too. Since you responded you have too suffer too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkTUxHUc7PE

? ? ? How do I unsubscribe twice?? It says I'm not subscribed. Yet me still recieve this. Stay suffer. too. Since you responded you have too suffer too

Likely because you got tagged.

I can't even unsubscribe. I guess I'll get annoyed forever.

@fgclue Mail filter = good boiiii 🐶📬✨🔥

@fgclue Did you try turning it off and turning it back on?

For those who think screen sharing works on Wayland - can you explain why it doesn't here?
raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback#149 (comment)

For those who think screen sharing works on Wayland - can you explain why it doesn't here? raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback#149 (comment)

can you explain why it works for me?

There is currently no official wayland protocol for screen sharing. Mostly because gnome insists of that not being a wayland protocol in the first place but a dbus interface using pipewire. wlroots based compositors do have an implementation for that via xdg-desktop-portal-wlr which uses a private wayland protocol to talk to the compositor but that one does only support capturing outputs.

There is a pending official protocol at https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/124. It has to be merged + implemented in wlroots (including the toplevel image source) + implemented in the xdg-desktop-portal-wlr bridge + implemented in the compositor.

If you want to capture single windows you might be better off using X11.

The deeper one digs into this, the more question marks come up.

A Raspberry Pi developer responded:

We don't officially support gnome so I can't spend much time digging into this, but it looks like what's going wrong is the dmabuf buffers being shared by GNOME are in a GPU tiled format (which is more efficient for the GPU to read and write). But webrtc doesn't know how to read these formats, so it gets all garbled. [...] it might help to uninstall xdg-desktop-portal-wlr (which implements screen sharing on wlroots-based compositors like labwc and wayfire) and install xdg-desktop-portal-gnome (which implements screen sharing for gnome). Otherwise, if you can convince gnome to use software rendering instead of hw-accelerated (i have no idea how) then that might fix it since that will use vanilla linear buffer formats.

Apparently different desktop environments using Wayland now implement "how the rendering works internally" differently, using different pixel formats, some using GPU rendering and others software rendering. As a result, it seems that some desktop environments need to have their own incompatible versions of some "xdg" (didn't this stand for cross desktop?) portals, which apparently can't even be installed alongside each other.

In practice, does this mean that we are now at a point where due to every desktop environment doing their own thing you can't have multiple desktop environments installed alongside each other and everything just works?

Possibly ext-screencopy-v1 and ext-image-source-v1 could unbreak this as Consolatis suggests, but as so often there is an endless discussion going on since years in the merge request, someone even asked

So we have 2 ACKs and 2 implementations. Now what?

...and nothing happened.

can you explain why it works for me?

Probably because you either a) used some preconfigured default combination of Wayland compositor, desktop environment, portals, Pipewire etc. and/or b) because you were lucky. Usually as soon as you try to mix and match (as we like to do in Unix land), things are a broken mess, as evidenced above.

As a result, it seems that some desktop environments need to have their own incompatible versions of some "xdg" (didn't this stand for cross desktop?) portals, which apparently can't even be installed alongside each other.

The xdg-desktop-portal interfaces are designed such that the interface itself is the same for all clients but there are different implementations for the service providing part. The implementations can be installed alongside each other, AFAIR the XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP env var is used to select the relevant implementation per interface which can be overwritten by the user.

can you explain why it works for me?

Probably because you either a) used some preconfigured default combination of Wayland compositor, desktop environment, portals, Pipewire etc. and/or b) because you were lucky. Usually as soon as you try to mix and match (as we like to do in Unix land), things are a broken mess, as evidenced above.

Its a.
Hyprland re-implemented various parts usually provided by wlroots and implements some own hyprland private wayland protocols + its own xdg-desktop-portal. That has benefits for users in case of screensharing and global shortcuts as its using the dbus interface abstraction. On the flip side hyprland is not working with other compositors on common wayland protocols to solve this mess.

get real

Yesterday I tried sway again. Sway keeps crashing when I play Dolphin-Emu. Of course, I did report it. But so far, not a solid experience.

I stuck a second GPU in my rig to offload GPU encoding to and free up my main GPU for display, now Wayland won't even start up. 🤷 I'm on mint anyway, so i can just keep using X11 which doesn't seem to care that I have a second GPU, and even lets me use it as a pass-through display device.
It's generally faster anyway, i saw 3D applications run 50% slower under wayland due to the overhead of xwayland because the vast majority of applications don't yet support it anyway.

I'm happy at least the mint developers are adding it as a optional login item instead of a 'you must use this now because reasons', I hope it stays that way until wayland actually reaches feature parity in another 15+ years

Apparently different desktop environments using Wayland now implement "how the rendering works internally" differently, using different pixel formats, some using GPU rendering and others software rendering. As a result, it seems that some desktop environments need to have their own incompatible versions of some "xdg" (didn't this stand for cross desktop?) portals, which apparently can't even be installed alongside each other.

I've been running into an issue with Davinci Resolve where the video previews get shown in the wrong buffer format. Resolve doesn't run as a native Wayland application and the issue occurs when using it through XWayland and X11. It's not related to the compositor or display server at all, it's actually has to do with Intel's Mesa driver and Intel's Compute Runtime not negotiating which buffer format they're sending to each other.

Different things support different texture formats and that can always become an issue when sharing buffers between things regardless of the method of sharing they're using. In this case, Debian Bookworm was providing a version of Mutter that was 3 (almost 4) version out of date and when the user upgraded to it, the issue was fixed.

I get that you want to mix and match things but that, as a rule, can't always work. That's not a Wayland problem, it's just a reality of how software development works.

Why is it working better in the X11 ecosystem then? Maybe it has to do with the fact that everyone basically uses the same implementation rather than reinventing the wheel (and bugs) time and again.

@probonopd

Why is it working better in the X11 ecosystem then? Maybe it has to do with the fact that everyone basically uses the same implementation rather than reinventing the wheel (and bugs) time and again.

Exactly! This is why we should all settle on a single Linux distro and implement world peace!

Why is it working better in the X11 ecosystem then? Maybe it has to do with the fact that everyone basically uses the same implementation rather than reinventing the wheel (and bugs) time and again.

I actually tested Davinci Resolve and its god awful because it does not communicate to the user !

By default, you require a license to have video previews of mp4 footage. But it doesnt tell you!
It doesnt tell you to convert it so that you can work with it. Then, when you want the previews, and the permission to edit it, you need the studio license for 329 EUR. Thats something you find out on the forums in the abyss...

Then, when you bought it, you edit your file, you see that AAC is not a supported codec.
You'd need to convert that... too. And thats something it doesnt tell you either.

Thats when I did the refund, and I didn't get it until I opened a PayPal case cause the support line didn't answer me.

Kdenlive works just fine in Wayland, at least on my system it does. No license or purchase required, no paid "optional" extras. No online currency in my case anyway so I would not have a choice anyway to use payware.

Kdenlive works just fine in Wayland, at least on my system it does. No license or purchase required, no paid "optional" extras. No online currency in my case anyway so I would not have a choice anyway to use payware.

Yep! And thats exactly what I changed to!

@AndreiSva

Exactly! This is why we should all settle on a single Linux distro and implement world peace!

No we should all be compiling our own systems, helping each other, not looking to a specific distro-leader to save us. They won't. Neither will I but I will try to cover as many as I can.

@mattatobin

@AndreiSva

Exactly! This is why we should all settle on a single Linux distro and implement world peace!

No we should all be compiling our own systems, helping each other, not looking to a specific distro-leader to save us. They won't. Neither will I but I will try to cover as many as I can.

You can't reasonably expect any non-developer to do that.

Linux wasn't designed for non-developers. That is why all these crap changes are happening. Also software development should be a pre-req for using a computer. So as a user you aren't trapped by whatever others give you.

root@localhost:~# apt-file search /usr/bin/Xorg
xserver-xorg-core: /usr/bin/Xorg          
root@localhost:~# apt-file search /usr/bin/Wayland
root@localhost:~# 

Wayland does not exist. What am I even supposed to boycott? Or install? Or migrate to?

@mattatobin

Also software development should be a pre-req for using a computer. So as a user you aren't trapped by whatever others give you.

Yeah, and you're not eligible to drive a car if you can't fix your Lada from 90s which breaks every 500 meters.

Or your Soviet DYRCHIK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpTzV_WkXhY

Look, I did not even come here from notifications, just recalled about the thread, like many times before as well, who suggested me to unsubscribe? :P Only a ban from GitHub might help perhaps.

@bodqhrohro While I don't expect everyone to be an expert in everything, I certainly am not. I would agree with a less extreme interpretation. Because you are correct. The extreme modernization of cars have made them extremely difficult if not impossible to service your self past the basics. It isn't like we needed to replace nearly every physical linkage with a 5volt signal and every button with a capacitive touch interface and every gauge with an lcd until those LITERAL android tablets glued to the dashboard take over for the older style engine computer.

I realize you were trying to get me on an extreme point but the issue with the really good extreme points is inside there is a kernel of a point that remains legit regardless of the absurdities piled on.

My last remark about this car analogy is .. Yeah, I know I can just put it in H but it doesn't make it any less bullshit.

made them extremely difficult if not impossible to service

The point is that it's not just difficult, but not needed as well.

A mature culture of modding and overcoming grows around deficient things. The rest just works™.

Now look how both X11 and Wayland attract tinkerers of different kind.

Modern cars (etc) CAN indeed be worked on.. I do all my own work, nothing of mine ever goes someplace requiring appointments and personal information to have it worked on. Rebuilding an engine or transmission hasn't changed that much. Been there, done that. Worst case is anything containing "VIN-locked" parts requiring the dealer to log into it and approve a new part. John Deere tractors are the worst offender here. Solution to this sort of thing (before they get cracked anyway) is to junk the OEM computer entirely and get an unlocked one sold for auto racing and whatever parts are needed to use it. Also some VIN-locked parts that fail other than in the chipset or board can be hacked by taking the offending chip or board from the old part and putting it in the new part that fixes a failure in some other part of itself. The computers do make a lot of things easier, like finding out which electrical sensor is bad is easy, a $35 scan tool does it. Finding which of a half dozen vacuum diaphragms was bad in the 1970's could require testing them all individually. Anyway, I don't think we will see Xorg on any small embedded computer systems using any sort of UNIX/linux based system in the future. Wayland might displace some proprietary systems though, and that will simplify running new interface pages on hacked/cracked systems if the authors don't have to figure out a one-off display server on whatever computer is used to control the setup. This sort of thing is already being done: hackers in Ukraine cracked John Deere's locked computers open like a melon, and their hacked firmware is now sold and used globally. I would recommend disconnecting any hacked device not intended as a communications system from the Internet not only for privacy but to prevent the vendor from "updating" it to lock out your cracks or install new antifeatures and DRM. It also should never, ever go back to the dealer for the same reason.

@lukefromdc I did say exactly:

The extreme modernization of cars have made them extremely difficult if not impossible to service your self past the basics.

The fact is, an android tablet replacing a stereo head unit is debatable as android auto stands. If it starts taking over for the dedicated firmware-based engine computer then I sure as hell will replace it with Linux and x11 if my car is so crippled. If it is JUST being a stereo.. Then I'd opt to just remove it completely from the car and wire in an actual car stereo or just replace it with a cellular dock. Android tablets especially the ones in cars now are utter junk. Hardware and software.

Of course my preference is for it to be operationally sound, has air conditioning, has an automatic transmission, and the driver seat is relatively comfortable. I require not much else.. It could be the junkest piece of junk that was ever called junk.. As long as it works and provides those basics. Tho a cup holder is always a plus.

If you are WAY past the basics, doing things like rebuilding engines and transmissions really hasn't changed much, so long as you don't encounter a VIN locked chip in a failed part. It's in the middle (e.g a computer replacement) that you get the most complexity it seems. Yes, I have rebuilt many engines and transmissions...

Why is it working better in the X11 ecosystem then?

Why does what work better in the X11 ecosystem? The example I just mentioned with Resolve happens in X11 and Wayland. It's a matter of texture compatibility and negotiation between a Mesa driver and compute runtime that are both developed by the same company.

Are you talking about what you mentioned with Portals? This has been mentioned to you before but Portals aren't part of Wayland. Like I said, Portals work with X11, too. DMAbuf isn't a Wayland thing either, it's a Linux kernel thing.

The quote you cited literally says that the issue has to do with the dmabufs being sent in a GPU tiled format that's more efficient for the GPU. That's exactly what I mentioned in my example with Resolve. The Intel Mesa driver uses an internal GPU texture formats called things like Tile4 and Tile64 and when it passes a buffer to their OpenCL driver, it interprets one as if it's the other. The issue happens in X11, too.

The only person who said Wayland was at fault in that issue was you...

I suspect these issues are caused by Wayland, which is the default session on Raspberry Pi OS, and is known for breaking screen sharing.

...and despite nobody else saying it was a Wayland issue, you still interpreted it that way. You really need to stop assuming that every bug is a Wayland limitation or issue, and accept that bugs and incompatibility between things has always happened, even under X11. X11 is a not a magic bullet that makes things work and neither is Wayland. They're each just parts of a working system.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that everyone basically uses the same implementation rather than reinventing the wheel (and bugs) time and again.

Without knowing what thing you're claiming works better in X11, I can't really answer this properly but... using this logic, wouldn't it be better if FreeBSD users just came to Linux? Wouldn't it be better if KDE, Gnome, Mate, etc all became one DE? Neither Wayland nor X11 would be needed because apps would just use whatever API is uniquely used in this super DE. Also nobody is re-inventing the wheel.

Do you want a bunch of options so people can pick and choose parts to work together or do you want no options? Or maybe you want a bunch of options that work together but none of them have the room to be all that different from each other so it's basically the same as having no options.

Why is it working better in the X11 ecosystem then? Maybe it has to do with the fact that everyone basically uses the same implementation rather than reinventing the wheel (and bugs) time and again.

I actually tested Davinci Resolve and its god awful because it does not communicate to the user !

By default, you require a license to have video previews of mp4 footage. But it doesnt tell you! It doesnt tell you to convert it so that you can work with it. Then, when you want the previews, and the permission to edit it, you need the studio license for 329 EUR. Thats something you find out on the forums in the abyss...

Then, when you bought it, you edit your file, you see that AAC is not a supported codec. You'd need to convert that... too. And thats something it doesnt tell you either.

Thats when I did the refund, and I didn't get it until I opened a PayPal case cause the support line didn't answer me.

I have my issue with Resolve, too, but it's not "god awful" just because it doesn't read mp4s without paying for the Studio version. I mainly edit Redcode RAW, Blackmagic RAW, or Prores and occasionally h.264 or h.265. I also do a lot of color grading and occasionally compositing. There really aren't open source tools that do any of that or work with those file formats.

Kdenlive works well for simpler videos and if I really needed to I could probably edit a film in it if it supports the formats the film is shot in, but I wouldn't choose it over Davinci Resolve. I'd love there to be an open source alternative to Resolve and I've thought of attempting to work on one myself but that would still take years to be usable and without a lot of help, it will still lag behind Resolve's feature set for a long time.

Kdenlive can use any video format your ffmpeg install supports. Distro versions that have patent-busting formats stripped out do need to be replaced with full-featured builds, which are available for most distros but kept an arm's length from the distro itself so any patent nastiness doesn't have the potential to take down the whole distro. This also separates the repo in question from the deeper pockets of someone like Ubuntu or Red Hat, discouraging patent lawsuits. For a proprietary video editor that makes money for its authors to use an unpaid version of a patented codec might cross a software paten red line that is currently being ignored when money is not part of the transaction. If the editor's team has to pay for the codec they cannot afford to then distribute it free having paid for it themselves. If for some reason you MUST use a paid editor and not pay for codecs, you could use ffmpeg to transcode everything to a supported codec first, thus taking the video editor and its authors out of the loop patent-wise. Render out to some low loss supported codec such as an uncompressed one, then compress in something like Avidemux or in ffmpeg directly

Please stay on the subject of Wayland deficiencies.

Guys I'm sorry but this "discussion" looks like:

Please stay on the subject of Wayland deficiencies.

You constantly bring up things that don't have to do with Wayland and then say it's Wayland. Just pretend we're complaining about Wayland and hush.

Kdenlive can use any video format your ffmpeg install supports...

Just looked it up and it looks like there's some work that was done to add braw support to ffmpeg so I'll have to check that out.

Render out to some low loss supported codec such as an uncompressed one, then compress in something like Avidemux or in ffmpeg directly

No way in hell. I'm not going to transcode everything. Blackmagic RAW and Redcode RAW are very high bitrate recording codecs which are only used by cameras and external recorders for cameras. Blackmagic RAW is 12-bit with PCM audio and metadata for ISO, white balance, lens, take, project, and per-frame gyrodata. The settings I typically record at are between 60-149MB/s (yes megaBYTES) on lower quality and 222-444MB/s at the highest quality. Transcoding everything before editing would strip out of all that metadata, disable highlight recovery options, and take up over twice the amount of space. I saw over twice as much because I'd need to use a 16-bit codec to make sure the baked in ISO curve doesn't crush away my data.

Even if I did go through all that effort (for no reason... I have two perpetual licenses for Resolve that I got with my cameras), Kdenlive's color grading is no where close to Resolve's.

@myownfriend This gist is about Wayland, not about the video editor you use.

@myownfriend This gist is about Wayland, not about the video editor you use.

That's nice. The guy who created the gist bitches about Pipewire and Portals and they're not Wayland either.

Hush.

@myownfriend Go back home to learn manners.

@myownfriend Go back home to learn manners.

I am home. If you want a productive conversation then you're in the wrong place.

This gist isn't even "about Wayland". Probo literally said it's about complaining about Wayland and it's perceived faults. He's not interested in what it does better than X11, he's not interested in determining whether or not Wayland is even at fault, and he's not interested in whether or not the issues he perceives about Wayland have been addressed.

It's all about complaining with no realistic end goal in mind. If you haven't figured that out by now then you need to pay better attention.

@myownfriend

If you want a productive conversation then you're in the wrong place.

I'm quoting you now: "Hush."

@aki-k go back home and learn how to stop being a hypocrite.

@myownfriend
I'm quoting you now: "Hush."

No :-)

No :-)

Based

Can't we all just dislike Wayland and everything else that came from the mentality if not the same people behind Wayland like systemd pipewire and Google (because Google is always responsible) together?

WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

This gist isn't even "about Wayland". Probo literally said it's about complaining about Wayland and it's perceived faults. He's not interested in what it does better than X11, he's not interested in determining whether or not Wayland is even at fault, and he's not interested in whether or not the issues he perceives about Wayland have been addressed.

It's all about complaining with no realistic end goal in mind. If you haven't figured that out by now then you need to pay better attention.

To add to the point of @myownfriend, most of the issues on this Gist is already outdated and resolved because the programs has long switched to the relevant portal implementations. Wayland does not and should not handle stuff that is outside the scope of a compositor. A compositor renders things to the screen, full stop.

Compare that to the bloated X11, where you have to disable the security module otherwise more than half of the apps you use will break. And it also has a built-in printing API, a printing API has no place in a compositor.

@IverCoder Hypocrite? You don't even know what the word means. myownfriend was asked twice to stop talking about video editors but his brain failed him.

@mattatobin you can't criticize systemd anymore because the systemd-democracyd installed in your computer will make it blow up 😨

@aki-k and yet here these people are complaining about xdg-portals which are completely seperate from Wayland itself.

@IverCoder Hypocrite? You don't even know what the word means. myownfriend was asked twice to stop talking about video editors but his brain failed him.

Wait you think I didn't what you two were saying? How dumb are you? Can you read the following exchange?

Please stay on the subject of Wayland deficiencies.
You constantly bring up things that don't have to do with Wayland and then say it's Wayland. Just pretend we're complaining about Wayland and hush.

I outright ignored Probo and you because why the fuck should I listen to either of you? lol If you can't remember what was said a few posts ago even though it's right there to review, I don't know what to tell you.

Based

This person knows what's up.

@myownfriend I guess I should point out to you (as you're unable to understand), this is probonopd's gist.

@myownfriend I guess I should point out to you (as you're unable to understand), this is probonopd's gist.

Yea, I said that this is Probo's gist already a few posts ago. Did you forget that I said that already? What's your point? Am I supposed to care that this is Probo's gist? lol

@myownfriend

Did you forget that I said that already? What's your point?

You forgot what I wrote to you before?

"This gist is about Wayland, not about the video editor you use."

You forgot what I wrote to you before?

"This gist is about Wayland, not about the video editor you use."

Why would you think I forgot that? I already said

1. It's not about Wayland, it's about complaining about Wayland
2. Probo frequently uses this gist to complain about things that aren't Wayland
3. I don't care.

I know you aren't bright so I'll explain this to you. When I ask if you forgot what I said a few posts ago, it's because you keep telling me things that I just told you or because you're repeating things that I already responded to lol

You're saying it response to me disobeying you and Probo...which I already said I'm doing. See how your response doesn't make sense now? lol

@myownfriend

I know you aren't bright

It's so cool to meet a Gen Z with a still developing brain.

It's so cool to meet a Gen Z with a still developing brain.

Why would you think I'm Gen Z and what part of you forgetting stuff mean that my brain is still developing?

You think waaay too much of yourself and it shows. You constantly attempt to be witty and keep fucking it up lol

You realize you don't need to be Probo's little protector, right? He's an adult.

@myownfriend Oh shit it's so embarrassing that older messages are kept in the gist:

@myownfriend

Did you forget that I said that already? What's your point?

You forgot what I wrote to you before?

"This gist is about Wayland, not about the video editor you use."

How do I know you're a Gen Z? You end sentences with 'lol'.

@myownfriend Oh shit it's so embarrassing that older messages are kept in the gist:

@myownfriend

Did you forget that I said that already? What's your point?

You forgot what I wrote to you before?

"This gist is about Wayland, not about the video editor you use."

You're getting worse lol I'll just respond with a quote from my own post where explained that disobedience is not forgetfulness.

I know you aren't bright so I'll explain this to you. When I ask if you forgot what I said a few posts ago, it's because you keep telling me things that I just told you or because you're repeating things that I already responded to lol

You're saying it response to me disobeying you and Probo...which I already said I'm doing. See how your response doesn't make sense now? lol

The fact that you don't understand disobedience makes you come off like a tool.

Also...

How do I know you're a Gen Z? You end sentences with 'lol'.

"lol" is an initialism that dates back to the 80s. It was used before anyone in Gen Z was even born lol I think Winston Churchill or someone of that era technically used it in a written letter but it didn't catch on. It's usage on the internet is so old that even offshoots like "kek" have existed for like 20 years already.

@aki-k Tell me what I am?

@aki-k Tell me what I am?

That's easy! You're a guy named Matt!