travisbrown/johncarlosbaez-responses.md

## johncarlosbaez-responses.md

      
    Raw
  

              johncarlosbaez-responses.md
            
          
    See this now-deleted thread (where Baez starts a long analogy with "Not just people, but also mathematical objects, can be oppressed!") and this tweet for context.
The responses quoted here have been described as "Thought Stasi" bullying (etc.), but in my reading most are respectful, very few are even confrontational, and only a couple are impolite.
This list is the result of a quick search and I may have missed relevant replies to the original thread, but if there are omissions they aren't intentional (please comment below and I'll update the list as needed).
With replies by Baez

In response to @SC_Griffith:

@SC_Griffith: "Making a disclaimer about your good intentions, mathematical objects are to some degree imaginary and people aren't, and I think this comes off not looking super great: it frames actual oppression of actual people as comparable to imaginary oppression of imaginary nonpeople"
Baez: "Yeah, I know some people won't enjoy that.   It's kind of a joke, obviously.   But it's also an interesting general pattern.  Some people and things gain power and then use that power to continue to reinforce their power."
Baez: "Of course it's not really that mathematical objects gain power on their own; it's about people in academia.   People decide certain concepts are unimportant, and then don't give jobs to people who study those concepts."

In response to @littmath:

@littmath: "FWIW I had the same reaction as Sarah -- I know this isn't your intention, but the idea that the "oppression of rigs" is comparable to the oppression of people trivializes something very serious. That said I agree with you that the vagaries of mathematical taste are unfair."
Baez: "What do you mean by 'comparable', Daniel?  They're definitely comparable in the sense that you can compare them: they have some structural similarities.  They're definitely not comparable in the sense of being 'equally bad'.  They're not equally bad."

In response to @likethebuilder:

@likethebuilder: "I’m sure your intentions were probably fine here, but tbh this comes off as a bit tone deaf"
Baez: "Yeah, I try to do good things like running my math department's annual conference on diversity - not stifle my bizarre sense of humor.  If people hate that, I hope they block me."

In response to @d_m_d_m_d_d:

@d_m_d_m_d_d: "doing one good thing doesn’t mean you can’t inadvertently do other harmful things"
Baez: "That's true!    If this joke seemed truly harmful, please block me and convince others to do so as well."

In response to @kay314159:

@kay314159: "Yeah, if you have to explain that something is a joke...."
Baez: "If you have to explain that something is a joke... you're probably on Twitter."

In response to @somekindapotato:

@somekindapotato: "how can a math object be oppressed … it's an abstraction not a person … that's like saying that the categorical imperative is oppressed"
Baez: "It's a metaphor, like 'the gloomy sky'.  It clearly endeared me to many."
@somekindapotato: "couldn't you have said 'some math concepts are like bookshelves in scooby-doo; pushed to the background, silenced, [etc.]' … like, that'd still get your point across and doesn't require comparing oppression (something that often murders people in the street) w/ bad pedagogy"

In response to @agolian:

@agolian: "You probably mean 'suppressed' vs. 'oppressed'. I realize you're trying to anthropomorphize mathematical objects, but some are finding this an insensitive analogy."
Baez: "I noticed."

Other replies


@Category_Fury: "oppression isn't a silly thing to use a launch point for a discussion of math."
@whynotwes: "There has to be a way to teach underused math concepts without framing their disuse as somehow comparable to the systematic oppression of human beings. This is an extremely disrespectful framing and I hope you'll reconsider this thread"
@klezmerwitch: "given john's history on twitter, and his usual response to any pushback from marginalized mathematicians, i'm honestly astonished by how charitable so many people are to him. but i suppose that's life!"
@ZariskiBusiness: "if oppression is just a thought experiment to you it is easy to make this comparison"
@Category_Fury: "I'm done being charitable.  This one hurt.  This one sucked.  I love constantly being reminded that my struggles are a thought experiment to people who hold power over me."
@feonixrift: "Of all the analogies you could have used to launch a subject that did not require an analogy to be understood, this was absolutely not an appropriate selection."
@linguanumerate: "This is a very 'I've forgotten that oppression is a real thing that happens to real people, and that those people would really quite like others to stop trivialising their oppression and take it seriously' tweet."
@VeteranShill: "'How can I make this about me and my interests...?'"
@fMRI_guy: "Maybe the guy saying “if my humor is hurtful towards minorities, just block me” shouldn’t necessarily be the one running the diversity conference. Just a thought."
@jacobkesinger: "Can't say I'm not disappointed to see this framing from someone whom I thought had good opinions on the matter"
@MarissaKawehi: "With all due respect, please do not invoke my name in support of your very gross false equivalence."
@GillesPavan: "Perhaps this joke was 'risky' because oppression and violence are really big problems in our real life world. Let's make them disappear and then see if the joke is ok for everyone ;)."
@theoreticalwzrd: "Is it really necessary to compare the struggles of real people who have had to fight to survive to concepts with no feelings or thoughts? I know you say it's a joke, but that doesn't mean it's not offensive and that doesn't excuse what is being said here and the result which is … minimizing the struggles of real life people with real life feelings and real life pain. … Let me also be specific since my previous tweet failed to do so: this is harmful to people especially BIPOC and you have been told so repeatedly and seem to not be listening and instead blocking them."
@thorimur: "oppression entails being systematically made to actually experience harm, so, math can’t be oppressed. if you’re wondering why ppl are reacting strongly, it’s bc clearly mathematical objects can’t experience that very real suffering—so implicitly, you’re saying it doesn’t exist."
@GosperIsland: "if you still follow @johncarlosbaez, I recommend not doing that"
@the_good_matty: "reconsider this"
@evanburchard: "Damn dude this sucks."
@CosmicGardening: "This ain't it."
@muthoftheyear: "The original thread I could view as a miscalculated attempt at humor, but the fact that you’ve apparently been reacting by blocking anyone who points out that your framing sucks is embarrassing. I’ll go ahead and unfollow to save you the trouble."
@LoboWithACause: "This somehow is worse than Romney's 'corporations are people' take."
@BraunMath: "My students have experienced awful treatment by teachers and peers due to their race, gender identity, socio economic background, and more. Jokes like this trivialize these experiences. People matter more than math. Please delete and rewrite this thread."
@mathyadriana: "No. Stop."
@Artemis_201: "This seems like a poor choice of comparison. … Kind of like how you don't compare a broken air conditioner to horrors done during the Holocaust. … Don't use other people's suffering to sell your stuff or make a joke, man."
@the_good_matty: "this doesn't seem like an apology, john"
@davidvizgan: "Yikes"
@dtkung: "In person, I'd try to explain what you were trying to do with this thread, and then I'd ask you to explain why so many of us find it offensive. When I've done this with folks who have said similar things, they've haven't been successful. … Please stop protesting, start listening."
@brewstronomy: "an idea being underappreciated/oft-forgotten is nothing like humans being denied their rights, persecuted, and killed. not even for a 'joke'. i might've called the original tweet tone deaf but this makes clear you knew what you were doing and chose to an asshole regardless."
@akivaw: "I would recommend not using sensitive topics in a jokey way. For people who have experienced oppression, seeing the word used in a silly context is unwelcome."
@s_yusim: "John, find something else to go be a freak about right now"
@howe: "Dude. This is not how you should talk about something that hurts actual people... and that is a problem in our profession."
@kamatsu8: "I agree that rigs are great but wow this is a tone-deaf analogy.."
@virtualcourtney: "Jumping on the bandwagon here -- let's not bandy about the word oppression lightly."