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@wchristian
Last active Apr 14, 2021
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What would you like to do?
sawyer posted this email ~40 minutes ago
https://perl.topicbox.com/groups/perl-core/T7a4f1bf9e069641f/i-am-stepping-down-from-psc-and-core-effective-immediately
in it he alleges "abusive behavior", "harassment", "publicly shaming",
"bullying"
from the text i know he means mst, and likely also me, and possibly others,
particularly as he deleted his twitter account within a few minutes after
message ⚫ #24 below
i'm sorry that i wasn't able to word myself in a way that did not feel to him
like i'm going after him
at the same time, i do not believe i deserve the accusations
as such, the record of this last conversation, as accurate as i can represent
it. on rereading, several people made typos and used words they didn't mean.
i preserve the text as original and encourage keeping this in mind
the ⚫ #number of messages here is chronological
links to the various thread chains:
start: https://twitter.com/shadowcat_mst/status/1381286479578681347
#15: https://twitter.com/mithaldu/status/1381327753455271943
#23: https://twitter.com/mithaldu/status/1381330901737562112
#24: https://twitter.com/nokusu/status/1381331554824228865
all other tweets are as of yet undeleted and i believe they will stay up.
screenshots of sawyer's tweets below
⚫ #0 mst
It looks like we're going forwards with 'use v7', which means future releases
will still be able to be /usr/bin/perl This was the right decision. Many thanks
to @PerlSawyer @neilb @rjbs for listening to people and taking time to think
things through.
https://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2021/04/msg259789.html
⚫ #1 cestith
So no choosing which Perl runs for /usr/bin/perl7 and which Perl /usr/bin/perl
or and which is /usr/bin/perl like with some other languages? Will I be able to
use 7's features without 'use v7' if I do name the executable 'perl7'? Does
using 'use v7'm mean keeping all the cruft?
⚫ #2 mithaldu
> use 7's features without 'use v7' if I do name the executable 'perl7'?
maybe
be aware that IDEs, PPI, Perl::Critic, syntax highlighters and other tools will
treat whatever code you write as perl 5 without `use x;`
> keeping all the cruft?
depends on what you mean by cruft
⚫ #3 mst
The people actually doing work on perl core don't seem to find the 'cruft'
problematic and if they do we can rip out stuff after a deprecation period like
normal, so unless/until somebody who knows the core code objects I consider that
an imaginary problem.
⚫ #4 nokusu
THINK OF THE MAINTENANCE COST is hilarious when the maintainers themselves don't
mind it.
⚫ #5 mithaldu
to make this somewhat more of a quip, several core devs have said that the value
of removing perl internals is dubious:
https://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2021/04/msg259724.html
⚫ #6 sawyer
This is not true. The Perl maintainers often have to deal with cruft. We don't
like it. There's a lot we wish we could remove and it would make our jobs much
easier.
⚫ #14 grinnz
This is not true, as the Perl maintainers have stated.
https://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2020/06/msg257566.html
https://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2020/08/msg258191.html
https://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2021/04/msg259724.html
⚫ #15 mithaldu
thanks for putting the whole list together
⚫ #16 sawyer
Emails are nice to have. We've had numerous discussions in person at
Perl Summits that said otherwise.
⚫ #7 mst
If you can find heavy C-level contributors like LeoNerd or DaveM or etc. saying
that I'd be interested to see.
Talking to the people who actually hack on that part of the code a lot tends to
result in more comments like this one than anything else:
https://nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2021/04/msg259724.html
⚫ #8 mithaldu
yeah, i tried to point this out below as well
and i think it should be mentioned that the email linked is from nicholas clark,
so there's 3 core maintainers who hold that the important of cruft in perl code
is in doubt
<link to ⚫ #5>
⚫ #9 sawyer
I have no interest in discussing anything with you, Matt.
⚫ #11 mithaldu
please read the email tho, i don't give a damn if you listen to matt or me or
anyone else
but least
listen to NWCLARK, PEVANS and Dave Mitchell
⚫ #13 sawyer
I have no interest in engaging with Matt at all on anything, and I'm not trying
to convince you of anything. You can consider me wrong if you wish. I'm fine
with that.
⚫ #17 mithaldu
wrong or not is my concern, i'm just trying to nudge you and the core devs
towards synchronicity between their most recent statements and yours
⚫ #18 sawyer
You will not get it. We flip flop. We say one thing, then consider the opposite
in other contexts. Numerous in-person meetings have reviewed things we would
love to review, things that are in our way. We know this. We talk about it.
Emails in context might reflect elsewhere.
⚫ #19 sawyer
And pushing me for saying a single thing is not going to make everything
suddenly synchronous. So please, just accept that people don't always say
everything 100% consistently and let me put a single word into the world without
criticizing it.
⚫ #22 mithaldu
please note that i only asked you to read the email, not to say a specific thing
if you read those words and hold by your opinion in opposition, that is fine to
me. i would in fact be curious why because it means i can learn
⚫ #23 mithaldu
also i would hope my last p5p email (plus many others) was a good example of not
criticizing every word you say
⚫ #10 mst
Then we'll leave it at you having made an unfounded assertion about the
maintainers' opinions and me having provided actual evidence, and I'll keep
discussing things with the people writing the code to ensure I have an accurate
understanding myself.
⚫ #12 sawyer
I'm not having any form of conversation with you, Matt.
⚫ #20 mst
That's your prerogative, but in that case I'm confused why you jumped into a
thread I started explicitly to contradict me - if you don't want to engage with
me, then joining the thread specifically to engage with what I said is a little
strange to me.
⚫ #21 sawyer
Matt, you need to leave me alone. Take "I don't want to talk to you" as an answer.
⚫ #24 nokusu
FYI you can untag people you don't want to interact with, instead of replying to
them and then complaining when they reply back.
@oodler577
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oodler577 commented Apr 14, 2021

Where's the merge button?

@oodler577
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oodler577 commented Apr 14, 2021

And I think mst mispelled FINGERMACROSftOOPs. Easy mistake to make in emacs when the caps lock is off. So, false alarm. needs work - still looking for that button.

@wchristian
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wchristian commented Apr 14, 2021

i have informed mst :D

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