[19:32] Mithaldu: and denying the validity of xenogender is doing a transphobic thing
[19:33] Mithaldu: and that is objectively so because, as we both know, there is a variety of named non-binary genders in existence already
[19:33] enny: I heavily disagree. you're basically saying we have to own the attack helicopter meme.
[19:33] Mithaldu: nope
[19:34] Mithaldu: because the question of sincerity comes in, and of course, the question of whether the identity in question is truly evolved in a temporal feedback loop from the historic distinction of sexes
[19:35] Mithaldu: if it is not sincere it doesn't need to be considered
[19:35] Mithaldu: but if it is, then the likelihood is extremely high that it does not actually stem from that distinction and is merely an identity, not a gender
[19:36] Mithaldu: of course this presupposes the recognition that identities are social feedback loops, and that genders are a special case of those
[19:38] enny: yea, I accepted that there are arguments in favor of xenogenders as a gender classification. none of them have convinced me that broadly it's not just kids on the internet going through a phase, and feeling the pressure to hyper focus on identity as a core aspect of themselves. this is good, but it doesn't make you call of duty gender just because you're prestige and have 2k hours
[19:38] enny: and btw
[19:38] enny: these are the very easy argument people will and have already started to make against the trans community
[19:38] enny: >look, they actually are doing the attack helicopter thing
[19:39] Mithaldu: yes, and i do not bow to that pressure internally. externally we can play the long con game and follow rgr's steps depending on what the audience is
[19:40] Mithaldu: keep in mind that communication of goals and understandings comes in a matrix of short term and long term and in-group and out-group
[19:40] enny: "my main issue is that the colloquial definitions for xenogender are bad and dumb"
[19:40] enny: this is the broader argument I'm making btw
[19:40] Mithaldu: THAT part i actually agree with
[19:41] Mithaldu: the primary thing i disagree is when you said xenogenders are not gender at all
[19:40] enny: not every aspect of identity is gender
[19:41] enny: xenogender is something but it's not gender
[19:41] Mithaldu: actually that is wrongly phrased
[19:41] Mithaldu: as in
[19:41] enny: I guess, to your point earlier
[19:41] enny: it can be but isn't always
[19:41] Mithaldu: the way it is phrased does not gel well with how the concepts interact mechanically
[19:41] Mithaldu: identity is intersectional
[19:41] Mithaldu: we hold multiple identities at the same time that intersect in various ways
[19:42] Mithaldu: gender is one of the identities we hold
[19:42] Mithaldu: what you probably mean is the same i said above
[19:42] Mithaldu: not every identity is a gender identity, which is perfectly sensible as genders are a subgroup of identities
[19:42] Mithaldu: fandoms, biological things, heritage, etc. are other types of identities
[19:43] Mithaldu: and people adopt them by learning of different things
[19:43] enny: yee, so when I was 13-15.. I worked for mugglenet. the biggest harry potter fansite. I was heavily involved in the community and fandom as a whole. it dominated my life, much like being in vaush's community dominates my life
[19:43] Mithaldu: i think the more important thing i'd need to convince you of is that when a furry says "my gender is lion" that is actually a valid gender identity
[19:43] enny: I was not harry potter gender
[19:43] enny: I am not vaush gender
[19:44] enny: they were parts of my identity, but they did not have any impact on my gender identity
[19:45] Mithaldu: 1. yes 2. yes 3. linguistically not quite, unless you want to propose a BIGGER IDENTITY that is a combination of all your identities
[19:45] Mithaldu: for sake of simplicity i consider it much more sensible to speak of having multiple identities
[19:45] Mithaldu: and yes, those other identities did not impact your gender identity
[19:45] enny: yea, so it's convoluted gender abolitionism is it not
[19:46] enny: "gender is so many things it's unimportant to be specific about what gender actually means"
[19:46] Mithaldu: that is not in anything i said
[19:46] enny: I know, I asked :PepoComfy:
[19:46] Mithaldu: i didn't see a ? :P
[19:46] enny: >is it not
[19:47] Mithaldu: °-°
[19:47] Mithaldu: that was too small for me to see :P
[19:47] Mithaldu: and it's not convoluted or gender abolitionism even
[19:47] enny: iz okey :PepoComfy:
[19:47] Mithaldu: it requires modifying your precepts to something that nobody ever explained to you, but which is nonetheless purely derivable by empiric observation
[19:48] Mithaldu: the first being that we hold multiple identities, the second that identities are social temporal feedback loops, the third that gender is merely one of those
[19:48] enny: yee, I think you can make plenty of 5head arguments for it :PepoComfy: I just don't care cause in general I don't see evidence that it matters
[19:48] enny: only time will prove this but
[19:48] enny: I'm almost certain xenogenders are a tiny internet fad that will fade in and out of relevance until eventually forgotten
[19:49] Mithaldu: you overlooked something
[19:49] Mithaldu: xenogenders existed long before, just under different names and under different understandings
[19:49] Mithaldu: because what the concept describes is a non-binary gender identity that was given a name
[19:49] enny: yee, we called them hobbies or special interests.
[19:49] enny: basically
[19:49] enny: people want "jock" to be a gender
[19:50] Mithaldu: you're falling for a fallacy
[19:50] Mithaldu: it's the same fallacy that leads people to say "fascism doesn't mean anything"
[19:50] Mithaldu: you're letting the existence of people misunderstanding and misusing the concept lead you to the conclusion that the concept is invalid on the whole
[19:51] enny: I mean.. have you scrolled the wiki
[19:51] enny: it comes off like a meme
[19:51] Mithaldu: yes, but i also lived xenogenders before any such wiki ever existed
[19:51] Mithaldu: what is the chance that the wiki describes them correctly?
19:51] enny: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760455653251743785/961684778535485460/unknown.png
[19:52] enny: mith it's astrology for zoomers
[19:52] enny: the thing here might be
[19:52] Mithaldu: you're not working with what i'm saying
[19:52] enny: there are legitimate expressions of this concept and illegitimated expressions
[19:52] enny: I believe this is a concept that has existed for awhile, and isn't brand new
[19:53] enny: I can believe that while also believing it's turned into a silly meme because of tumblr teens grasping for validation
[19:53] Mithaldu: and that's why i fight, because that's both cruel to the people who lived the concept before, like me, and unproductive
[19:54] enny: okay, so are kids online saying "I'm video game gender (or whatever they call it) so making fun of me for being a NEET is actually transphobic" hurting trans advocacy?
[19:54] Mithaldu: i didn't have a fancy name for it at the time, nor do the cultures across earth with third, fourth, fifth genders have that fancy name for it, but it's the same thing
[19:55] enny: you can call this a strawman, but it happens. kids are stupid and wokescolds
[19:55] Mithaldu: that's a weird sentence, yes it hurts, but the neet part in there is also what makes it very irrelevant because it makes the sentiment clear as insincere
[19:56] Mithaldu: and i already said that insincere gender identities are not genders
[19:56] enny: okay but how do you tell the difference
[19:56] Mithaldu: same way you tell whether destiny is nonbinary or not
[19:56] Mithaldu: you make an assessment
[19:56] enny: I think there's a heavier weight of insincerity (which isn't the word I'd use, I think they're confused kids trying to find themselves) than you're willing to admit
[19:56] Mithaldu: might get it wrong or not
[19:56] enny: given how goofy some of these genders are
[19:57] Mithaldu: but this is also moving further away from understanding the mechanics, or do you think you know what i mean when i say social temporal feedback loop?
[19:58] enny: well, can we trust this assessment? my assessment is that he's lying but I refer to him as non-binary anyway and respect his identity cause I cannot actually know if he's lying, so saying so would be transphobic. not sure how you don't end up in the same spot with xenogenders
[19:56] enny: okay but how do you tell the difference
[19:56] Mithaldu: same way you tell whether destiny is nonbinary or not
[19:56] Mithaldu: you make an assessment
[19:56] enny: I think there's a heavier weight of insincerity (which isn't the word I'd use, I think they're confused kids trying to find themselves) than you're willing to admit
[19:56] Mithaldu: might get it wrong or not
[19:56] enny: given how goofy some of these genders are
[19:57] Mithaldu: but this is also moving further away from understanding the mechanics, or do you think you know what i mean when i say social temporal feedback loop?
[19:58] enny: well, can we trust this? my assessment is that he's lying but I refer to him as non-binary anyway and respect his identity cause I cannot actually know if he's lying, so saying so would be transphobic. not sure how you don't end up in the same spot with xenogenders
[19:58] Mithaldu: again, i said this before: you're making two contradicting claims:
"1. some xenogenders are invalid. (i agree)"
"2. no xenogenders are valid. (i disagree)"
[19:58] Mithaldu: in a hypothetical, yes, because we made it. in practice, depends on how well you know the person
[19:59] Mithaldu: i know he's lying, and i would only treat him as non-binary performatively in the presence of people i would not expect to know he's lying
[19:59] enny: yee I think this is fair. I will concede that this issue is complicated and hasn't been studied at all.. so to say the entire thing is nonsense is a stretch. I think the majority of xenogender stuff as it exists today is a meme
[20:00] Mithaldu: the majority you are aware of, which is the issue
[20:00] enny: yee totally fair
[20:00] Mithaldu: not your fault, but bias is ubiquitous
[20:01] enny: I was actually just gonna say, it's implicit bias that will make me select for the extreme cases cause I've had more expose to them
[20:01] Mithaldu: and while i agree those wikis are cringe, i have spent decades with people who lived xenogenders without even knowing that they're doing it
[20:01] Mithaldu: like, hard tacks
[20:01] Mithaldu: i spent decades sitting on irc with furries and going to conferences
[20:02] Mithaldu: when i socialized with rabbits, foxes, dogs, lions, these people performed very specific roles. oftentimes when introducing one to each other the question of "are you a man or a woman" was never asked
[20:02] Mithaldu: only what animal are you
[20:02] Mithaldu: and those roles they performed ended up being modulated forms of man and woman
[20:03] Mithaldu: they didn't know they were doing it
[20:03] Mithaldu: but they had formed their own specific, socially shared gender identities, and named them
[20:03] Mithaldu: and they did and do perform fully functionally identically as man and woman do today, within their (admittedly smaller) society
[20:04] Mithaldu: you could tell someone about someone else and mention their animal and within certain bounds the other person know what kind of behavior to expect and what treatment would be expected from them
[20:04] Mithaldu: and this often, because furries are fucking horny, was behavior and treatment related to hooking up
[20:05] Mithaldu: i think this should make enough sense
[20:05] enny: yea I'm following
[20:05] Mithaldu: (also remember third genders from older cultures)
[20:06] enny: ehh.. I don't think those are examples of xenogenders in practice. I think they're just cultural examples of a rejection of the binary. tho could be both
[20:06] enny: like, are all non-binary people inherantly xenogender?
[20:06] Mithaldu: lemme try and turn your perspective around
[20:06] Mithaldu: those things aren't xenogender
[20:07] Mithaldu: kids nowadays observed what we were already doing for decades, decided to slap a name on it and went crazy with it
[20:07] Mithaldu: it's not that the older things are what the kids are doing
[20:07] Mithaldu: the kids are running with what the older things were and named it
[20:08] Mithaldu: i don't think a person can be xenogender (adjective)
[20:08] enny: to me xenogender feels like otherkin to the extreme. and I already have my qualms with otherkin because it's based in spiritual practices (i.e, a lot of this stuff basically feels like astrology with a different coat of paint)
[20:08] enny: *fit into a xenogender
[20:09] Mithaldu: a lot of the expressions of xenogender you are aware of feel like otherkin to you
[20:09] Mithaldu: aight, to be clear here
[20:09] Mithaldu: a xenogender is a non-binary gender identity that you named
[20:10] Mithaldu: (note, not prescriptive, descriptive)
[20:10] enny: okay. so here's my conclusion atm: xenogenders on their face are valid. the waters have been muddied by people, probably not even intending to, jumping onto the concept and hijacking it as a trend.
[20:11] Mithaldu: yeah, it's like someone unintentionally reinventing soccer
[20:11] enny: this is a problem with the discourse that you will never win back then :PepoComfy:
[20:12] enny: xenogenders are silly astrology genders and this is what people know them as because the community around them is very silly
[20:12] Mithaldu: externally? not without further research, correct
[20:12] enny: that's at least where most people are and will stay
[20:12] Mithaldu: gonna need new names too
[20:12] Mithaldu: sorry, i shouldn't say research
[20:12] Mithaldu: scientific concensus is the key
[20:12] Mithaldu: what i am doing is science
[20:12] Mithaldu: building and testing models
[20:12] Mithaldu: what i am lacking is consensus
[20:13] enny: yee. it needs to be studied. I just don't think you want it studied by a sociologist
[20:13] enny: a psychologist would probably agree with you, a sociologist would agree with me
[20:14] enny: well, setting up that dichotomy is actually inaccurate because we don't disagree
[20:14] Mithaldu: why would a sociologist, assuming they're educated on furries and third genders, disagree?
[20:14] Mithaldu: or what about
[20:15] Mithaldu: (honestly i have no idea what discipline my introspection falls under. i am looking at it as a programmer)
[20:16] enny: because I would assume a sociologist would analyze this, and say "it's a valid historical concept that has transcended into a majority young community of internet users who spun it off into a phenomena that now no longer resembles relevant historical examples we can find."
[20:16] Mithaldu: possible, but furries also still exist
[20:16] enny: a sociologist would likely chalk up the modern existence of xenogenders as a niche internet phenomena
[20:16] enny: and would maybe even reclassify them
[20:16] Mithaldu: sounds like you're.. yeah ok
[20:16] Mithaldu: that's fine with me
[20:17] Mithaldu: heck, i'm happy to say that what most of the kids are doing is neo-astrology, while what doe did was actual named non-binary gender
[20:17] Mithaldu: (doe disagrees, but that is either a lapse in logic or dishonesty, because it fucking hardcore performs a deer, based on what i've seen in its interactions with demonmama)
[20:18] enny: yee, then again in that case I'd still fall back on my logic tree
[20:18] Mithaldu: i'm not even sure doe knows it's a furry
[20:18] enny: "doe is non-binary"
"doe named that classification"
"doe is not trans because it identifies as a deer"
"doe is trans because it is non-binary"
"the naming convention did not contribute to it being trans at all"
[20:18] enny: now
[20:19] enny: because deer gender is what doe named its identity
[20:19] enny: it actually would be transphobic to not validate it
[20:19] Mithaldu: "the naming convention did not contribute to it being trans at all" huh?
[20:19] enny: but I don't like this logic because it means you have to collectively apply this standard
[20:20] Mithaldu: again, external internal
[20:20] enny: and that falls into iffy places where, calling the video game kid a NEET is transphobic
[20:20] Mithaldu: by how you apply the standard is how you delineate your ingroup
[20:20] Mithaldu: and the delineation of your ingroup determines when and how you apply the standard
[20:21] enny: the problem with internet discourse is, there are no defined boundaries for that group
[20:21] Mithaldu: my parents probably do hundreds of transphobic things every day
[20:21] Mithaldu: but it's pointless to bring it up because they don't know
[20:21] Mithaldu: not necessary
[20:22] Mithaldu: everytime you talk to a person you make an assessment of whether they are in your ingroup or whether you want them in your ingroup
[20:22] Mithaldu: you made it clear you want to be in mine
[20:22] Mithaldu: tempest made it clear he doesn'T want to
[20:22] Mithaldu: you cannot describe the group, but for an individual you can do it very easily
[20:23] Mithaldu: there's probably an uncertainty principle meme in this
[20:23] enny: yee I think that's the toughest part
[20:23] enny: you're forced to make judgement calls with limited information
[20:23] Mithaldu: only when talking to groups
[20:23] Mithaldu: or unknown people
[20:23] enny: people aren't equipped to do this, so the default is blanket acceptance
[20:23] enny: or blanket denial
[20:24] enny: it's gonna be tough to find a middle ground I think :PepoComfy:
[20:24] Mithaldu: the reddit moderation question is one of whether we consider the subreddit part of the ingroup or not
[20:24] Mithaldu: and tempest said it's not
[20:24] Mithaldu: so we'll operate based on that
[20:24] enny: yee which makes sense, it's a public discussion forum
[20:24] Mithaldu: btw i don't remember if you said whether social temporal feedback loop makes sense to you
[20:24] enny: the ingroup exists inside the community, but the platforms we use aren't the community.. the people within them are
[20:25] enny: so, basically, the reddit serves as a door
[20:25] enny: not the room
[20:25] Mithaldu: yeah
[20:26] Mithaldu: (fun fact, the difficulty is that vaush has tentatively agreed on my definition of gender, but i'm not sure he really understood it)
[20:28] enny: I'm not sure how you mean :PepoThink:
[20:29] enny: I mean I understand the concept of what it is, just not sure how I'm being asked to apply it :Danki~1:
20:29] Mithaldu: ok, imma need to go downstairs for some minutes, this document explains the principle, tho i make a mistake in it, the mechanical description is actually for all identities, not just genders: https://gist.github.com/wchristian/ca7e34cb7b5b9188e7a5db291b12e119
[20:30] enny: oh yea sorry, I've read this
[20:31] enny: hmm, okay I didn't think to apply this concept to things outside the traditional understanding of gender
[20:32] enny: imma follow it real quick with the application of non-binary / non-traditional identity and see if it enlightens anything for me
[20:35] enny: aight
[20:43] enny: so yee this actually illustrates how one could form a central identity around a concept or thing. I agree that those things would fall inside the lines of identity, obviously. the main takeaway is that it's situational as to whether those things should be considered gender, and that is mostly based on the individuals personal perception of their identity and how those traits manifest.
this shouldn't be called gender. it's just.. not gender. it's a characteristic of identity and personality, which can be linked to gender, but in most situations isn't and we would be better served from if they were reclassified into a different expression of identity that didn't include the word gender in it
[20:43] enny: really it seems like there are two things at play here, and they're both being referenced under the same umbrella
[20:43] enny: they're loosely related but not the same thing
[20:45] enny: but I was actually thinking about my use of "jock" earlier as a throwaway, and I could actually see an argument where the archetype (which btw, john huges invented in the 80s.. this is just a fun side note fact) could take over your expression of identity to where it becomes more of an outward expression of how you want to been seen and treated by society then your gender is.. to the point where the line becomes blurred
[20:46] enny: and at that point I could see it carrying the weight that gender does in identity
[20:47] enny: but it still really feels like these things are not gender :PepoComfy: it all comes down to the definition of gender you use, which is convoluted and subjective anyway
[20:49] enny: if this discourse had happened 15 years ago, we'd be talking about whether or not "goth" or "scene", which are aesthetic fashion choices, could constitute gender. which I guess would come down to the individual on how they chose to compartmentalize their identification with it
[20:49] enny: it brings up interesting questions like
[20:49] enny: can femboy be a gender
[20:51] enny: and I guess the importance there is on can because that's the right way to ask the question :PepoThink: is doesn't capture it cause it's not a collective thing, it's a question of the individual
[20:51] enny: (sorry I'm mostly thinking out loud lol)
[21:36] Mithaldu: honestly, i think i just realized that any identity that affects how you date is functionally a gender :v
[21:36] enny: wait woah
[21:36] enny: yea that.. makes sense
[21:36] Mithaldu: because dating itself is in the social-historical feedback loop a product of the sex differentiation
[21:37] Mithaldu: not all genders involve behaviors around dating specifically
[21:37] Mithaldu: but all identities that involve behaviors around dating are genders
[21:37] enny: nah but I think it's a valid framing anyway. like.. even if someone is aro/ace.. other people can still be attracted to them
[21:37] Mithaldu: haha, yeah, didn't even think of that
[21:38] Mithaldu: also, femboy is by necessity a temporally fluid gender
[21:38] Mithaldu: you can't really be a 70 year old femboy with current technology
[21:39] enny: yee, conure identifies as non-binary and a femboy as separate things. but I think you can make a solid argument that they inform eachother and aren't as separate as they seem
[21:39] enny: while I was rereading your thing the thought just occurred to me that femboy would actually fit the loops logic
[21:39] Mithaldu: oh that's why i mentioned earlier that one has multiple identities
[21:39] Mithaldu: one can have multiple genders
[21:39] Mithaldu: yeah?
[21:40] enny: yep, because the purpose of adopting a femboy aesthetic is to be seen as more fem (or even exclusively as fem)
[21:40] enny: this is, in our colloquial understanding, an expression of gender identity
[21:41] Mithaldu: honestly i consider jock a gender
[21:41] enny: not just fashion aesthetic
[21:41] Mithaldu: unironically
[21:41] Mithaldu: it's a type of man
[21:41] enny: true, but there are jock women
[21:41] Mithaldu: ha
[21:41] Mithaldu: true
[21:41] enny: far less common though
[21:42] Mithaldu: right, it's a partial participation in the gender woman that retains enough differences to forcibly create its own thing
[21:42] Mithaldu: actually fuck
[21:42] enny: and tbh, I grew up around female athletes and there are a lot of people I would now looking back probably clock as eggs in there that may never hatch because of conservative social pressure
[21:42] Mithaldu: femboy IS a xenogender
[21:42] Mithaldu: it just flies under the radar because the name is not surprising
[21:42] Mithaldu: and doesn't require explaining
[21:42] Mithaldu: i mean, yeah, i was in the military too
[21:42] Mithaldu: we had a whole bunch of different women soldiers
[21:42] enny: yeee true also in the military
[21:43] enny: which just made me think of a funny joke :PepeLa:
[21:43] enny: well but not really cause now I'm actually questioning a framework that might make this statement legitimate
[21:43] enny: >drill sgt is a gender
[21:44] enny: but literally, by design of the position and the training involved in filling it, drill sgts code switch. they have to. essentially in front of new boots, they're playing a character
[21:44] enny: but character is an iffy way of saying this
[21:44] enny: they're adopting the traits of a pre-determined archetype
[21:45] enny: :WAYTOODANK:
[21:46] enny: some from training, some because they're reenacting full metal jacket
[21:46] Mithaldu: i mean, it's definitely an identity
[21:47] Mithaldu: i wouldn't know if it's a gender, unless you wanna say that it is one because it's an intentionally hypermasculine identity
[21:47] enny: okay, question
[21:48] enny: would the key distinction here be "drill sgt is a gender if someone who identifies as a drill sgt considers it part of their expression of gender"
[21:48] enny: like, the decision is still on the individual to classify their identity right
[21:48] Mithaldu: aight, consider this
[21:49] enny: there are definably identifiable traits of a drill sgt, and some may identify more strongly with that expression than their AGAB :PepoThink:
[21:49] Mithaldu: a person can be a luna fan
[21:49] Mithaldu: a fan of the black sailor moon cat
[21:49] Mithaldu: and a person can be a luna fan
[21:49] Mithaldu: a fan of the kpop singer
[21:50] Mithaldu: just because the use identities in the same category and with the same name doesn't mean their identities are the same
[21:50] Mithaldu: they must have the same understanding of it
[21:50] enny: cause I think what holds me back is, are people who identify with xenogenders saying they are inherently not on the traditional gender spectrum. or is it more accurate to say "some people who identify with a xenogender are non-binary, and some are gender fluid"
[21:50] Mithaldu: that's not a meaningful distinction
[21:51] Mithaldu: we're all gender fluid to some degree
[21:51] Mithaldu: we're all non-binary to some degree
[21:51] enny: yee, I guess that's a good point. all gender is fluid
[21:51] Mithaldu: it's a matter of naming
[21:51] Mithaldu: drill sgt is lenny's gender if lenny decides to name hys gender identity drill sgt
[21:52] enny: this makes sense. I think it's too individual for me to associate it easily with the trans experience
[21:52] enny: but
[21:52] enny: this may be because the majority of trans people are binary-trans so therefor the roles they identify in are clearly defined and easier to understand
[21:52] Mithaldu: the problem is that gender also means multiple things
[21:52] Mithaldu: people use it as short for gender identity
[21:52] Mithaldu: and people use it as short for a shared social identity
[21:53] Mithaldu: and you must remain aware of which of these (or others) you are talking when you say gender in a sentence
[21:53] Mithaldu: otherwise you just confuse yourself and the other :D
[21:53] Mithaldu: the key is that it's actually not special at all
[21:54] enny: :PepoG:
[21:54] Mithaldu: sec
[21:54] Mithaldu: lemme pull an example
[21:54] Mithaldu: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760455653251743785/961715600667852850/unknown.png
[21:54] Mithaldu: these are both woman, right?
[21:56] enny: I have to assume they are
[21:57] Mithaldu: but their gender behaviors are wildly different, right?
[21:57] enny: well I guess I don't have to lol. yes without other information I would assume they are on presentation
[21:58] enny: umm, kinda. in this example I see sexual traits. the dominate and submissive. you can argue the dominate position is more readily associated with masculinity though yee :NODDERS~2:
[21:58] Mithaldu: so the individual shapes of their gender identity are different
[21:58] enny: ahhh I see what you're illustrating. variation inside a categorical description
[21:58] Mithaldu: but they coincidentally use identical names for their gender identity even if they are not identical shapes
[21:59] Mithaldu: yeah
[21:59] Mithaldu: so
[21:59] Mithaldu: we all have individual genders
[21:59] Mithaldu: and we each individually name them
[21:59] enny: https://cfhsprowler.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/baseball-vs-softball-1494674054-1658.jpg
[21:59] Mithaldu: it just so happens that most people's genders' shapes are so similar that they think they're identical and choose the same name
[21:59] Mithaldu: lmao yes
[22:00] enny: okay so I don't even need to type out the explanation :PepeLa:
[22:00] Mithaldu: so the whole "naming" is ubiquitous
[22:00] Mithaldu: everyone does it, even if just by accepting the name they were given for their shape
[22:03] Mithaldu: oh
[22:03] Mithaldu: and now that you understand feedback loop
[22:04] Mithaldu: you understand how gender is a spiral that was started in the stone age and was continued until today?
[22:04] Mithaldu: or rather, a collection of spirals
[22:05] enny: yee that makes sense. the internet just expanded the rate at which the spiral extends out
[22:06] enny: because, as it's a construct, it's developed by our interactions with other people
[22:07] Mithaldu: rather
[22:07] Mithaldu: it makes the individual spiral's positions diverge from each other so the existence of more than two spirals becomes more clear
[22:14] Mithaldu: yeah
[22:14] Mithaldu: if 1000 spirals overlap you think it's just a blurry spiral
[22:14] Mithaldu: if 100 of them move a quarter to the left it looks like it#s a thick blurry and a thin blurry spiral