gistfile1.txt

(capnleela) diakopter toddr_ apeiron perigrin dipsy If this Bikini Sports Bar is attached in any way to the venue we want to use, we need to find a new venue. I am so very serious about this.
(capnleela) And any further communication about this has to be done via email so there is a record of this. diakopter toddr_ apeiron perigrin dipsy Do you understand?
(@apeiron) capnleela, this wasn't my idea at all
(@apeiron) pretty sure diakopter said we don't need that space
(@apeiron) also you don't need to ping the whole channel
(@apeiron) you seem to be new to IRC but that's a /killable offense
(@kyriel) Oh dear gods. 
(@kyriel) The hyperfeminist contingent pretends to promote diversity, fairness, and justice, but really it's all about control. Nobody pushes back because they're afraid to offend. Well good luck with that. People got suckered last year, and this year it's going to be a trainwreck.
(capnleela) Ah, thank you for that perspective kyriel.
(capnleela) apeiron There is a very good reason it had to be seen by the entire channel.
(@dngor) IRC's not a written record?
(@apeiron) That's nice
(@apeiron) Highlighting lots of people is still grounds for /ban or/kill
(@apeiron) I don't care who you are. That's how it works
(@apeiron) hell I kill/d DrForr yesterday for FUD
(capnleela) apeiron it was specific people who were involved in a specific conversation.
(@apeiron) What part of "is grounds for /ban or /kill" is unclear?
(@apeiron) You're trying to help out. That's great. But we're not going to cowtow to everything you say
(@apeiron) sorry
(capnleela) where are the rules about this? you want to silence the only voice that's telling you that these actions of only IRC talks are wrong.


(@apeiron) lulz.
(@apeiron) Take your righteous crusader bullshit elsewhere.
(capnleela) Well, you're not in charge this year. And it is being done a bit different.
(@apeiron) If I wanted to listen to that I'd go to church tomorrow. :D
(@apeiron) You're not in charge, either
(@apeiron) Todd and the other organizers are.
(@apeiron) so
(@apeiron) again
(capnleela) no, I'm absolutely ot.
(@apeiron) Then stop acting like it
(@apeiron) :)
(capnleela) We can't have that venue if it even shares the same parking lot as that other space. 
(@apeiron) How about
(@apeiron) instead of whinging about IRC not being enough
(@apeiron) you take your indignation to the mailing list?
(@apeiron) and be productive by your own standards
(capnleela) We will find another venue. It's Austin. And a month before the conference. Help us look.
(@dngor) But it's in the same building as the venue. Is that the problem?
(capnleela) Yes, that's a problem.
(@apeiron) If you insist upon this being documented on the mailing list, document it on the mailing list
(@apeiron) Since clearly IRC has no written record
(@dngor) One more question: Who's this "we"?
(@apeiron) The royal we, as far as I can tell
(@dngor) Absent an antecedent, it sounds like you're an organizer.
(capnleela) The actual organizers of the conference this year.
(capnleela) yes, I am one of many.
(@apeiron) I don't see any word from them except Todd saying to look for something else
(@apeiron) so
(@apeiron) "we" has no basis
(@apeiron) I'd thank you to stop assuming authority you don't possess
(@dngor) Isn't there an off-band list for organizers to organize in private?
(@apeiron) yes
(@apeiron) as a means of giving your argument more weight than it has otherwise
(@apeiron) thanks
(@apeiron) dngor, capnleela said to take this to the list
(@apeiron) dngor, I am enjoining capnleela to take it to the list
(@apeiron) dngor, capnleela is refusing
(@apeiron) I do not understand why
(@dngor) Maybe publicity is part of the goal, then.
(@kyriel) Publicity and outrage are definitely part of the agenda. :)
(capnleela) I'm only responding in kind. You keep talking to me, then I'm assuming it's an actual conversation, and not just you telling me what to do.
(@apeiron) You mean like how you were telling us what to do earlier? :)
(@dngor) Under the implied authority of YAS.
(capnleela) Yes, about one very specific matter. Not a "you don't belong here" way like you all are trying to do now.
(@apeiron) So, let's have a small digression about empathy. We don't know you. Everyone in this conversation has been doing perl community stuff in one way or another (some of us as organizers!) for years
(@dngor) Not me. I'm suggesting that the organizers list is a good place to get the organizers' attention and do organizer business.
(@apeiron) To have someone we don't know come in and demand we do things a certain way seems a little... rude?
(@dngor) If you don't want to use the organizers' list, that's fine too. It might be more effective, though.
(capnleela) dngor I agree. But they were discussing it publicly here. Which is why I responded publicly here. The only reason why.
(@apeiron) Usually if someone wants to start a discussion on a mailing list, they start the discussion
(@apeiron) so... I don't see mail from you
(capnleela) There was mail a few days ago. There was an email thread about this days ago. But for some reason it was discussed here instead after that.
(@apeiron) srhug, I didn't bring it up here
(@apeiron) Instead you chose to ping everyone who was active in the past few days (including a bot)
(@dngor) Bad IRC etiquette, which leads to the "you must not be from around here" vibe.
(capnleela) Again, only people who responded to that conversation yesterday. Very specific people.
(@dngor) Orthogonal issue, really.
(@dngor) It'd be helpful to separate them.
(@apeiron) fwiw my comments were entirely unrelated to any specific venue
(@dngor) I wish privoxy would look at https URLs.
(capnleela) apeiron Yes, thank you for that.
(capnleela) But you still didn't see a problem with that other space being attached to the venue.
(@apeiron) Really?
(+dipsy) yes, really
(@apeiron) Are you quite certain?
(capnleela) There's a problem with that type of "entertainment" being associated with an official event, especially when that event is also entertainment related. No one seems to understand this. That other people besides this very small group on IRC will have a problem with this venue and feel uncomfortable.
(@apeiron) I want to see your mind reading device
(@dngor) IRC's a written log. Where did he say that.
(@apeiron) Just because I didn't get righteously indignant it doesn't mean I don't have a problem
(@apeiron) Put down the sword, Michael
(@apeiron) seriously
(@dngor) Or Bush, if this is a with-us-or-against-us moment.
(capnleela) apeiron, your only comment that I could see was "apeiron: I dunno about you but I like to hear the people I'm gaming with"
(@apeiron) Yes
(capnleela) which happened before the conversation about Bikinis being attached.
(capnleela) So please show me where you commented afterward.
(@apeiron) I refuse to be on trial.
(@apeiron) sorry
(@apeiron) I said put down the sword; I meant it
(capnleela) apeiron This isn't a trial. All I said was that no one said anyhing.
(@apeiron) that you saw, in public
(@dngor) I was idle.
(capnleela) It's not on the other IRC channel either. I checked last night.
(capnleela) Or in any email thread,
(@apeiron) Good for you
(@apeiron) Privmsgs exist
(@apeiron) they're... private! :)
(@apeiron) And besides
(@apeiron) Todd handled the issue
(capnleela) so where was this conversation then? We're supposed to be documenting it.
(capnleela) And Trello hasn't been updated either, that I can see.
(@apeiron) If you care that much, make a post yourself.
(@apeiron) do you know how volunteering works?
(@apeiron) people who care about a thing do things related to that thing
(@apeiron) you care about this
(@apeiron) do something
(capnleela) Really, you want to ask that?
(@dngor) I don't like this guilty-until-proven-innocent thing.
(@apeiron) ^
(@apeiron) You are disrupting this channel with your crusade instead of being useful.
(@apeiron) I have received at least one complaint about this already.
(capnleela) Why don't you send the complaint my way?
(capnleela) I can address it directly.
(@dngor) Bad IRC etiquette. Kind of like publishing private e-mail, but only up to about 500 characters at a time.
(@apeiron) Fine. You're a bully, but no one is brave enough to stand up to you because they're afraid to attend
(@apeiron) And I'm tired of it, as an IRC operator
(@apeiron) er
(@apeiron) afraid to offend
(@apeiron) Also disuaded from attending
(capnleela) Do it in private then. Tell the person to send me a private message. Or email. Damn.
(@apeiron) This is an IRC matter
(@apeiron) I'm an operator
(capnleela) It's not just an IRC issue, however. It's a conference issue.
(@dngor) It's two, two issues in one.
(@apeiron) It was delat with
(@dngor) Was it completely? I read that the breastaurant is still within the breast-free conference zone.
(@dngor) Maybe s/read/misread/. To me the language was ambiguous, but I'm hyperliteral after years of talking to computers.
(@perigrin) It's attached to the building that diakopter was wanting to use as a venue Tuesday night. Potentially owned by the same owners. As far as *I* understood the conversation I was a part of we laughed at the suggestion we could use the space and both understood that to not be an acceptable idea.
(@perigrin) And that's where the conversation ended. I thought. Until I woke up just now.
(@toddr__) I think this conversation has gone off the rails a little
(haarg) that was pretty much how i read it too
(@kyriel) Yet it is still not acceptable to use the space that is not the breastaurant because some people will be offended? Insulted? Potentially harassed? 
(@toddr__) and I think the issue is long past being YAPC related 
(@perigrin) toddr__: this is me trying to supply rails, and bring it back to where actually topical.
(@toddr__) If we want to have these meta conversations, perhaps #coc would be a better forum?
(@perigrin) that's an unfortunate acronym.
(@kyriel) *gasp*
(@toddr__) I have no comment. :)
(@dngor) It's a good thing we didn't know about the Swingers convention ahead of time.
(@dngor) Also: I've always known breasts were dangerous at a distance.
(@toddr__) I think the original concern though stated a little too forcefully was that given all the events this year, a "Hooters" equivalent bar for an official event is probably a bad idea.
(@dngor) If people are that much not in control of themselves, having it at a bar is risky, too.
(@kyriel) True. 
(@perigrin) toddr__: The confusion I have is that *nobody* was suggesting that.
(@toddr__) I would tend to agree. diakopter was Joking, though without the back story, it wasn't clear that was what he was doing. 
(@apeiron) and this is why people make fun of paladins in tabletop RPGs
• @perigrin likes paladins.
(@kyriel) As far as I saw here, nobody was suggesting the breastaurant as a viable option.
(@toddr__) dngor: I have similar thoughts. But there's a spectrum from having all the events in a baptist church to having it in a brothel. Clearly we need to find a balance, right?
(@toddr_) kyriel: Correct. I suspect capnleela came in and didn't have enough backlog to know diakopter was joking.
(capnleela) toddr_ I understood he was joking. The problem was that it should have been tossed out completely as an option at that point.