annevk/sole.txt

## sole.txt
<sole_> so essentially - unless you're paid to read email (e.g. as anne is) email lists are super time consuming and very few people can spend the time on doing that
<sole_> can/want
<sole_> so yeah email can be very exclusionary :)
<jgraham> My experience is that putting the same volume of discussion on a forum or bugtracker doesn't magically reduce the amount of work you have to do to pay attention to the bits you care about
<annevk> sole_: I think it's about being paid to work on this stuff in general
<annevk> sole_: standards is actually a lot of work, so expecting people to work on it in their free time is like expecting people to work on open source in their free time
<sole_> yes!
<annevk> sole_: it's not really about communication medium, although some people like to invoke that distraction
<annevk> (I mean, I do think that GitHub over W3C Bugzilla is more new-folks-friendly, but it's peanuts compared to the overall cost.)
<annevk> sole_: I'd be interested in learning how you folks communicate though and how you find being subscribed to some mailing lists
<annevk> sole_: if we can find something better I'm all for it
<sole_> so there is a number of things, e.g. +1 replies in a mailing list are a tremendous amount of noise. if you could use say an online poll instead
<sole_> it is way more efficient
<sole_> and it's also a problem of people not being aware that they're wasting other people's time
<sole_> E.g. when people rephrase other people's message to essentially agree in a very long form of +1
<annevk> oh, sounds like you ended up on a bad list
<sole_> People who have the time to write those long bricks are not aware that some people might not be able to read those
<annevk> that shit is not allowed at the whatwg
<sole_> annevk: it's 99% men on the internet :P
<annevk> sole_: also in standards :-(
<annevk> sole_: they're also pretty much all white
<sole_> annevk: yeah so I was talking to someone in the node comm and he was "but I like to agree!" and as I explained to him how other people doesn't have time to read his agreement he was totally puzzled
<sole_> I know they do not do it because they are essentially evil but it is a cultural issue
<annevk> Sorry, who do not do what?
<sole_> sorry, I meant: I know they don't do it because they're evil; it is a cultural issue
<annevk> (It does sound like node comm might need some community management. And maybe mailing lists need some indication of how many people are subscribed to them when you sign up.)
<sole_> annevk: I'm being asked to translate something to Spanish in another channel and my brain is confused O:)
<annevk> heh
<sole_> annevk: yeah! so there's also the "who is reading THIS?" and "am I allowed to be a newbie here?" "how much am I expected to know before I can dig in?"
<annevk> that's actually much clearer on GitHub come to think of it
<annevk> you know who's watching the repo, you can tell from the tone what's expected, and moderation is pretty trivial since someone can just delete the noise
<annevk> thanks sole_
<sole_> yep!
<sole_> also you can filter (if you use labels)
<sole_> and the interface is more amiable than mailman
<sole_> I can see why people who were born after 1990 are more comfortable with that ;)
<sole_> another thing that can be cool is that you can participate from there instead of figuring out how to get that bikesched thing - you can do PRs from the website
<sole_> I think I sent a couple of PRs to specs because I read the markdown file there and found typos or something and sent the suggestion, and I've never sent a fix to any of the other specs because I can't be bothered to find out how to help
<annevk> sole_: for all the whatwg specs you can edit a single file, typically indicated as such in the README
<annevk> sole_: we'd like to move to a model where specs are build on the server entirely and we use Travis and such, but that's not up and running just yet
<annevk> sole_: I guess that's a roundabout way of agreeing...
<sole_> 8-)
	<sole_> so essentially - unless you're paid to read email (e.g. as anne is) email lists are super time consuming and very few people can spend the time on doing that
	<sole_> can/want
	<sole_> so yeah email can be very exclusionary :)
	<jgraham> My experience is that putting the same volume of discussion on a forum or bugtracker doesn't magically reduce the amount of work you have to do to pay attention to the bits you care about
	<annevk> sole_: I think it's about being paid to work on this stuff in general
	<annevk> sole_: standards is actually a lot of work, so expecting people to work on it in their free time is like expecting people to work on open source in their free time
	<sole_> yes!
	<annevk> sole_: it's not really about communication medium, although some people like to invoke that distraction
	<annevk> (I mean, I do think that GitHub over W3C Bugzilla is more new-folks-friendly, but it's peanuts compared to the overall cost.)
	<annevk> sole_: I'd be interested in learning how you folks communicate though and how you find being subscribed to some mailing lists
	<annevk> sole_: if we can find something better I'm all for it
	<sole_> so there is a number of things, e.g. +1 replies in a mailing list are a tremendous amount of noise. if you could use say an online poll instead
	<sole_> it is way more efficient
	<sole_> and it's also a problem of people not being aware that they're wasting other people's time
	<sole_> E.g. when people rephrase other people's message to essentially agree in a very long form of +1
	<annevk> oh, sounds like you ended up on a bad list
	<sole_> People who have the time to write those long bricks are not aware that some people might not be able to read those
	<annevk> that shit is not allowed at the whatwg
	<sole_> annevk: it's 99% men on the internet :P
	<annevk> sole_: also in standards :-(
	<annevk> sole_: they're also pretty much all white
	<sole_> annevk: yeah so I was talking to someone in the node comm and he was "but I like to agree!" and as I explained to him how other people doesn't have time to read his agreement he was totally puzzled
	<sole_> I know they do not do it because they are essentially evil but it is a cultural issue
	<annevk> Sorry, who do not do what?
	<sole_> sorry, I meant: I know they don't do it because they're evil; it is a cultural issue
	<annevk> (It does sound like node comm might need some community management. And maybe mailing lists need some indication of how many people are subscribed to them when you sign up.)
	<sole_> annevk: I'm being asked to translate something to Spanish in another channel and my brain is confused O:)
	<annevk> heh
	<sole_> annevk: yeah! so there's also the "who is reading THIS?" and "am I allowed to be a newbie here?" "how much am I expected to know before I can dig in?"
	<annevk> that's actually much clearer on GitHub come to think of it
	<annevk> you know who's watching the repo, you can tell from the tone what's expected, and moderation is pretty trivial since someone can just delete the noise
	<annevk> thanks sole_
	<sole_> yep!
	<sole_> also you can filter (if you use labels)
	<sole_> and the interface is more amiable than mailman
	<sole_> I can see why people who were born after 1990 are more comfortable with that ;)
	<sole_> another thing that can be cool is that you can participate from there instead of figuring out how to get that bikesched thing - you can do PRs from the website
	<sole_> I think I sent a couple of PRs to specs because I read the markdown file there and found typos or something and sent the suggestion, and I've never sent a fix to any of the other specs because I can't be bothered to find out how to help
	<annevk> sole_: for all the whatwg specs you can edit a single file, typically indicated as such in the README
	<annevk> sole_: we'd like to move to a model where specs are build on the server entirely and we use Travis and such, but that's not up and running just yet
	<annevk> sole_: I guess that's a roundabout way of agreeing...
	<sole_> 8-)