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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!
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Wayland.md

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Wayland proponents make it seem like Wayland is "the successor" of Xorg, when in fact it is not. It is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

References

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 10, 2024 •
edited

Yes. Because I run a custom grub configuration added into efibootmgr my self and have been experimenting with compiling a kernel in the way I want that can run this pseudo-stableish Fedora 39 userspace well.. If I can do that it should handle anything I want to do. Because I am taking the time and care to manage this manually the only time it needs pissed with is when I, manually want or need to piss with it.

Otherwise, why have it mounted in a running system and why crowd my custom shit right along side what the distro is managing assuming I didn't custom install avoiding their's and using mine or whatever I am doing.

Which if it is redhat-based I can yum --installroot edit my grub.cfg and reboot either selecting the distro kernel and just.. manually clean them up if I care enough and set the config to the version I want or just use my own, initramfs free. Now I don't expect most people to ever wanna have to do this but I expect most people to not shit upon me for my self needing or wanting to. Shame my expectations are rarely met though.

As for filesystems.. XFS all the way.. ext4 if I don't particularly care about the partition like if it is a temporary staging partition or whatnot.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 10, 2024 •
edited 

#!/bin/bash

cd "$(dirname "$0")"
SCRIPT_DIR="$(pwd)"

echo "This script also doubles as an ad-hoc installer so if you choose the default below it will assume you want to prep the root not merely access it."
echo -e "If you still want to use the default mount point then touch .linuxnt in the target root file system and run this script again.\n"

read -p "Enter Mount Point [/mnt/sysroot]: " TARGET_SYSROOT

TARGET_SYSROOT=${TARGET_SYSROOT:-"/mnt/sysroot"}

if [ "$TARGET_SYSROOT" == "/mnt/sysroot" ]; then
  if [ ! -f "$TARGET_SYSROOT/.linuxnt" ]; then
    INSTALL_SYSTEM=1
  fi
fi

# -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

dossetup() {
  read -p "Press enter to prep the virtual filesystems..."
  mkdir -pv {$TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/pts,$TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/shm,$TARGET_SYSROOT/etc,$TARGET_SYSROOT/proc,$TARGET_SYSROOT/run,$TARGET_SYSROOT/sys}
  cp -v /etc/resolv.conf $TARGET_SYSROOT/etc/resolv.conf
}

dosconfig() {
  echo "Mounting virtual filesystems..."
  mount -v --bind /dev $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev
  mount -vt devpts devpts -o gid=5,mode=0620 $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/pts
  mount -vt proc proc $TARGET_SYSROOT/proc
  mount -vt sysfs sysfs $TARGET_SYSROOT/sys
  mount -vt tmpfs tmpfs $TARGET_SYSROOT/run

  if [ -h $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/shm ]; then
    install -v -d -m 1777 $TARGET_SYSROOT$(realpath /dev/shm)
  else
    mount -vt tmpfs -o nosuid,nodev tmpfs $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/shm
  fi
}

winnt32() {
  read -p "Press enter to begin the installation."

  dnf install --installroot=$TARGET_SYSROOT --releasever=39 --setopt=install_weak_deps=False --setopt=keepcache=True --nodocs --refresh --assumeyes \
    @custom-environment \
    @c-development \
    @development-libs \
    @development-tools \
    @fedora-packager \
    bc \
    dbus-daemon \
    curl \
    htop \
    httpd-tools \
    nano \
    fuse-sshfs \
    ntfsprogs \
    python2* \
    rsyslog \
    traceroute \
    unzip \
    wget \
    zip \
    screen \
    net-tools \
    dos2unix \
    rsync \
    time \
    tree \
    whois \
    git \
    curl \
    wimlib* \
    -x ccache \
    -x plymouth* \
    -x audit \
    -x abrt* \
    -x firewall* \
    -x vim* \
    -x audit \
    -x zram*
  

  touch $TARGET_SYSROOT/.linuxnt
  read -p "Install either worked or it didn't. Press enter to continue."
}

ntldr() {
  echo -e "\nEntering $TARGET_SYSROOT..."
  echo -e "\n================================================================================"
  echo -e "\nOpen Source Linux NT [Version $(uname -r)]\n$(uname -v)\n"
  chroot "$TARGET_SYSROOT" /usr/bin/env -i   \
      HOME=/root                  \
      TERM="$TERM"                \
      PS1="(Linux NT) \u:\w \$ "  \
      PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin     \
      MAKEFLAGS="-j$(nproc)"      \
      TESTSUITEFLAGS="-j$(nproc)" \
      /bin/bash --login
  echo -e "\n================================================================================\n"
}

dosexit() {
  echo "Unmounting virtual filesystems..."
  umount -v $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/pts
  mountpoint -q $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/shm && umount -v $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev/shm
  umount -v $TARGET_SYSROOT/dev
  umount -v $TARGET_SYSROOT/run
  umount -v $TARGET_SYSROOT/proc
  umount -v $TARGET_SYSROOT/sys
}

# -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Setup filesystem
if [ -n "$INSTALL_SYSTEM" ]; then
  dossetup
fi

# Mount virtual filesystems
dosconfig

# Install system
if [ -n "$INSTALL_SYSTEM" ]; then
  winnt32
fi

# Chroot to system
ntldr

# Unmount virtual filesystems
dosexit

@ArcExp
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ArcExp commented Jun 11, 2024

so in short, the person who made this post is upset that xorg specific apps, like xkill don't work on wayland, while operating on out of date information about the level of readiness of other apps, like obs, that now work on wayland just fine

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Jun 11, 2024 •
edited

@ArcExp

so in short, the person who made this post is upset that xorg specific apps, like xkill don't work on wayland

The very idea of Wayland is retarded, that's why the architecture sucks, that's why the fragmentation is so big. The rest is just a consequence.

@AndreiSva
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@ArcExp

so in short, the person who made this post is upset that xorg specific apps, like xkill don't work on wayland

The very idea of Wayland is retarded, that's why the architecture sucks, that's why the fragmentation is so high. The rest is just a consequence.

Just think of wlroots as the Xorg server. and all your problems about "fragmentation" go away.

@Monsterovich
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@AndreiSva

Just think of wlroots as the Xorg server.

This is not a server, but one of the many Wayland libraries for making graphical servers.

and all your problems about "fragmentation" go away.

That's how wlroots was created:

...

@Consolatis
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so in short, the person who made this post is upset that xorg specific apps, like xkill don't work on wayland

The very idea of Wayland is retarded, that's why the architecture sucks, that's why the fragmentation is so big. The rest is just a consequence.

Why do you feel the need to create tension and division where there isn't any?
If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

@binex-dsk
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so in short, the person who made this post is upset that xorg specific apps, like xkill don't work on wayland

The very idea of Wayland is retarded, that's why the architecture sucks, that's why the fragmentation is so big. The rest is just a consequence.

Why do you feel the need to create tension and division where there isn't any? If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

That's not possible, because then @Monsterovich 's entire existence would be worthless.

For reference, anything that doesn't use wlroots is legitimately unusable and broken, so the point about wlroots being the 15th competing standard doesn't make sense. How can you be a competing standard when every other standard doesn't work?

Here's my list of compositors I've tried.

wlroots-based:

  • sway - works
  • Hyprland - works
  • Wayfire - works
  • labwc - works
  • KWinFT (Theseus' Ship) - works

Note that all of these have full feature compatibility and work perfectly for every task (sans KWinFT, which is still very incomplete)

Not wlroots-based:

  • Mutter - completely broken
  • KWin - Didn't work up until last year, now suffers from graphical issues & lacks featurea
  • Weston - sort of works? Very intermittent.

Alas, when only one standard works, that is the standard.

@Consolatis
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To be fair, there is a number of missing features / issues with wlroots based compositors, 3 from the top of my head:

  • Applications can't tell the compositor to set some app icon (the respective wayland protocol was merged but the wlroots implementation isn't yet merged). One can argue that that is just because the protocol got recently merged and is thus also an issue in the wider wayland ecosystem that will fix itself over time as implementations trickle in.
  • You can't use compositor features like always-on-top or move-window-to-workspace / select-workspace from a panel in a standardized way as the respective wayland protocols required for that are not yet accepted. There exists custom compositor specific IPC to work around it but that is pretty ugly and requires all panels to implement compositor specific support which is obviously a bad thing.
  • Using output scaling with xwayland on any wlroots based compositor other than likely hyprland (as it takes over quite some wlroots functionality itself) is pretty much broken and results in blurry galore. It can be argued that this is an issue with missing viewporter support for Xwayland itself as fractional output scaling works just fine for wayland native applications.

These are not enough to scare me away from using it as a daily driver but issues like this should also not be hidden.

@probonopd
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Author

If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

Thing is, players like Fedora and IBM Red Hat are trying to shove it down our throat by declaring it "the future" and removing working Xorg.

@probonopd
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Just think of wlroots as the Xorg server. and all your problems about "fragmentation" go away.

Except that Gnome and KDE are not even using it.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Jun 11, 2024 •
edited

obs, that now work on wayland just fine

Last time I tried, it didn't. (I was running neither Fedora nor Gnome or KDE.)

@Consolatis
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If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

Thing is, players like Fedora and IBM Red Hat are trying to shove it down our throat by declaring it "the future" and removing working Xorg.

So.. don't use those distros if you don't like that?

@binex-dsk
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obs, that now work on wayland just fine

Last time I tried, it didn't. (I was running neither Fedora nor Gnome or KDE.)

What's with your Fedora obsession? OBS works on Wayland for me, running neither fedora, nor GNOME, nor KDE. Using the non-functional BallSackWM doesn't work to prove your point.

@zarlo
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zarlo commented Jun 12, 2024

If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

Thing is, players like Fedora and IBM Red Hat are trying to shove it down our throat by declaring it "the future" and removing working Xorg.

and? you dont have to listen to them. you will always beable to build xorg yourself or use another distro

@AndreiSva
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obs, that now work on wayland just fine

Last time I tried, it didn't. (I was running neither Fedora nor Gnome or KDE.)

Then what were you running? Did you have pipewire installed / enabled?

@8bitprodigy
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If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

Thing is, players like Fedora and IBM Red Hat are trying to shove it down our throat by declaring it "the future" and removing working Xorg.

and? you dont have to listen to them. you will always beable to build xorg yourself or use another distro

The problem is that they kind of drive the direction of Linux for much of the whole Linux ecosystem.

@zarlo
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zarlo commented Jun 12, 2024

If you don't like the wayland architecture, don't use it. Simple as that.

Thing is, players like Fedora and IBM Red Hat are trying to shove it down our throat by declaring it "the future" and removing working Xorg.

and? you dont have to listen to them. you will always beable to build xorg yourself or use another distro

The problem is that they kind of drive the direction of Linux for much of the whole Linux ecosystem.

still dont see the issue if every one is more or less forced to move to wayland then software support would not be an issue like even windows has a limit for support when it comes to very old software

@birdie-github
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Just think of wlroots as the Xorg server. and all your problems about "fragmentation" go away.

Where can I get your mushrooms?

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 12, 2024 •
edited

My solution is to piss off RedHat by having xorg on EL10 and because pieces exist I can shortcut the hell out of into a pseudo-distro while I work on a real one from scratch.

ALSO Kinda sick of xorg not doing full releases.. While OpenBSD has a tree .. its BSD'd .. I am just gonna get the pieces and lay a tree down with updates based on a simple "does this version break shit or not" in one repo.

@securerootd
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Also the weird Xfce Whiskermenu resize issue

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 12, 2024 •
edited

Seriously, why don't some of us just soft-fork X11 until it is just defacto ours? I am native to the world of DOS and Windows I don't particularly care about pissing off the Open Source Community (because I follow licenses which is ALL I am ever required to do).

Besides, the majority of those who would be against an X11 fork are those who want X11 dead and currently xorg themselves.

@Consolatis
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Seriously, why don't some of us just soft-fork X11 until it is just defacto ours?

Sounds good. Very curious to see your X11 improvements.

@fredvs
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fredvs commented Jun 12, 2024

Seriously, why don't some of us just soft-fork X11 until it is just defacto ours?

Sounds good. Very curious to see your X11 improvements.

https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/

@mattatobin
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The biggest initial improvement will be a tree and tarball with you know all the source code in it so someone can actually you know build it, search it, hack on it, without it being a scavenger hunt on an apache autoindex. As I said the OpenBSD effort can be used as a guide but kept non-specific.

That could track, test, and select the best combo of modules for as long as they are doing active good faith development. As I said initially a soft-fork that can and would be ready to become more than that.

Passing beyond the soft-fork stage at some point then actual work would initially be focused on dropping ancient systems and ancient hardware support. Then evaluating X12's Priority list. I don't agree with every point and not happy with a few others but recognize the value. Then deciding if anyone still cares. If they DO then well, everything is setup for people to do things even if xorg is crippled or further obfuscated.

@lukefromdc
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lukefromdc commented Jun 12, 2024 via email

@dm17
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dm17 commented Jun 12, 2024

Sounds great. Decide who will own the repo, fork it, trust the right people, and can use this thread as a jumping off point. Would be interesting if it can be configured to share some upstream with Xinocara - but maybe its too specific to OpenBSD, though distros have tried if I recall.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 12, 2024 •
edited

I am not jumping the gun and selling a vision of crap that won't ever happen. The point is NOT to be like Wayland.

If you guys wanna go balls to the wall X12 then do it but I think it will only end up being nothing more than a spite project that will flame out quickly. My strategy is to make it first easier to actually get x11 outside mainstream distros and track releases and take things one step at a time methodically.

Establish, Accomplish the initial goal, curate and maintain and coordinate. Then consider going beyond X11 all while not making it too difficult to still take advantage of any xorg development that remains.

Remember, it isn't JUST modern feature requests or priorities .. it could be easier to build, easier to contribute to, easier to ENJOY.

Now I am gonna make this unified repo based on the kind of thing OpenBSD did to start out with. Regardless if some pseudo-respectable and upstanding member of the community does it too.. Because I just plain need it.

@b0llull0s
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Last Wayland update broke rofi in hyprland (at least in Arch)

@mattatobin
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Wayland does not break applications or your desktop.. It's the apps and your desktop and your habits and you yourself that needs to change.

What's the matter with you? lol

Seriously though, once I get this unified repo mangled together it will live in a new org I setup separate from my normal stuff.. In fact it makes more sense for some of the stuff I was gonna do to live under that new org. But again, don't want to get ahead of my self.

@jbeich
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jbeich commented Jun 13, 2024

@birdie-github wrote:

Where can I get your mushrooms?

Most BSD contributors interested in Wayland focus on wlroots nowadays:

Even if wlroots was a standalone process instead of a library one'd still need to port X11 WMs due to incompatible API. Some wlroots-based compositors support changing WM via plugins (wayfire, hyprland) and custom protocols (river), so it's possible to reimplement one's favorite X11 WM with fewer lines of code.

No GNOME/Wayland and Plasma/Wayland -> no fragmentation. Largely thanks to systemd-logind tentacles.

@birdie-github
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birdie-github commented Jun 13, 2024 •
edited

This all sounds like trying to patch the hole of not having a reference Wayland server.

Just imagine all the goodies provided by it:

  • A single configuration file akin to /etc/X11/xorg.conf. Not only Wayland compositors have varying locations, they all have different incompatible configuration formats.
  • A safe environment. People have already been inquiring about how to run Gnome or KDE in "safe" mode. Too bad it's impossible to imagine this for KWin/Mutter. And what's the safe Wayland compositor exactly? Oops, none.
  • Just like you said, "Even if wlroots was a standalone process instead of a library one'd still need to port X11 WMs due to incompatible API" but this is a huge advantage the way I see it.
  • Login managers being able to reuse it and not having to implement a fucking display server which sounds like complete madness.
  • People not having to worry whether their wlroots based compositor indeed properly enables all the features provided by the library.

Indeed at the moment Wayfire looks like the only sane Wayland compositor but oh boy it's overloaded with features, it easily and often crashes (and takes all the apps with it since it doesn't implement protocol handover or how it's called) and and it has a ton of bugs.

You'd think 15 years would be enough to have something feature complete and relatively bug free. We have nothing outside KWin/Mutter. That's ridiculously bad. And it's not like the Wayland protocol itself is even feature complete. There are literally tens of dozens MRs being discussed and debated. That's totally fucked up. That's not how I envisaged an X11 replacement.

And it's depressing to see how slowly and piecemeally it's all getting implemented. I'm sorry, I'll stay with Xorg for a few more years. It's not like XFCE supports Wayland at all. The third major DE on Linux FFS. What a joke.

If Linux developers have chosen not to implement the reference server, hopefully it will dawn on *BSD guys that it could be a net benefit for everyone involved, so they will finally create it.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 13, 2024 •
edited

I don't want to be anti-wayland but I also don't want what freedesktop or gnome decides. I can't go back to Windows nor can I use any distro as-is and as far as DE's go.. Well.. Cinnamon is the best because it just largely unfucks Gnome back to something like a complete desktop environment but it does suffer from the same issues as any other integrated de and one based on gnome tech following freedesktop.

It must obey a set of standards that are slated to be ever changing and eventually replaced and of those it only matters that it works with its self and the new overarching systems.

I just think people should be sharing environments, the pieces, the methods, and the joy of creating your environment that can enable you and inspire others. Not just shipping out upstream code without even looking at it and shoving working things aside cause something new and shiney is there.

@lukefromdc
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The single configuration file (and ideally a single command line option to use a moved variation of it) would be a huge advantage for the MATE-wayland session. You'd still have to select to compositor by starting the MATE session using that compositor, but if the necessary options (in particular, what to autostart( used the same syntax and unsupported options were ignored, it would be possible for the installed package to support a MATE session using any or all compositors (excluding GNOME or KDE as they do not use wlroots) that the user has installed.

Anyway, MATE isn't going anywhere no matter what happens to Xorg or Wayland, we will be here either way.

This all sounds like trying to patch the hole of not having a reference Wayland server.

Just imagine all the goodies provided by it:

* A single configuration file akin to `/etc/X11/xorg.conf`. Not only Wayland compositors have varying locations, they all have different incompatible configuration formats.

* A safe environment. People have already been inquiring about how to run Gnome or KDE in "safe" mode. Too bad it's impossible to imagine this for KWin/Mutter. And what's the safe Wayland compositor exactly? Oops, none.

* Just like you said, _"Even if wlroots was a standalone process instead of a library one'd still need to port X11 WMs due to incompatible API"_ but this is a huge advantage the way I see it.

* Login managers being able to reuse it and not having to implement a fucking display server which sounds like complete madness.

* People not having to worry whether their wlroots based compositor indeed properly enables all the features provided by the library.

Indeed at the moment Wayfire looks like the only sane Wayland compositor but oh boy it's overloaded with features, it easily and often crashes (and takes all the apps with it since it doesn't implement protocol handover or how it's called) and and it has a ton of bugs.

You'd think 15 years would be enough to have something feature complete and relatively bug free. We have nothing outside KWin/Mutter. That's ridiculously bad. And it's not like the Wayland protocol itself is even feature complete. There are literally tens of dozens MRs being discussed and debated. That's totally fucked up. That's not how I envisaged an X11 replacement.

And it's depressing to see how slowly and piecemeally it's all getting implemented. I'm sorry, I'll stay with Xorg for a few more years. It's not like XFCE supports Wayland at all. The third major DE on Linux FFS. What a joke.

If Linux developers have chosen not to implement the reference server, hopefully it will dawn on *BSD guys that it could be a net benefit for everyone involved, so they will finally create it.

@AndreiSva
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AndreiSva commented Jun 13, 2024 •
edited

@lukefromdc

And it's depressing to see how slowly and piecemeally it's all getting implemented. I'm sorry, I'll stay with Xorg for a few more years. It's not like XFCE supports Wayland at all. The third major DE on Linux FFS. What a joke.

Except it does. XFCE works flawlessly on wayland if you swap xfwm for Wayfire, see this.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 13, 2024 •
edited

@AndreiSva Why do you believe that is sufficient? Wayfire isn't xfwm. The bloody window manager for xfce is one of its most key features.. Forget the accessories and the file manager.. it stops being xfce if its not housed in the xfce window manager. You end up with wayfire and xfce accessories and panel. This is also why LXQT isn't even a full desktop environment it is just a highly extended OpenBox environment and IMO drags openbox down.

Also, xfce doesn't even work flawlessly. Now again that's fine if that is whatcha want but that doesn't justify making x11 just a lazy-developer abstraction layer so you can have emoji everywhere and zoom your desktop 2-4 times its normal size because you bought a panel that renders stuff too small to physically see natively.

Also, former Pale Moon user eh? Do not get in my way, please.

@mattatobin
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Also, remember.. xorg != X11 and I think X11 should perhaps proliferate a bit more. That is not a goal of xorg or freedesktop.

@birdie-github
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Except it does. XFCE works flawlessly on wayland if you swap xfwm for Wayfire, see this.

XFCE will work flawlessly with Wayland only when I install, say, Fedora 44 and simply select "XFCE Wayland session". Not break my head with dubious scripts, hacks, tweaks and utter shit and trying to marry Wayfire to XFCE.

Your comment is a litmus test of how abso-fucking-lutely Linux fans, or should I say Wayland fans, are disconnected from reality. I've been using Linux for over 25 years now. I want an OS akin to Windows, MacOS, Android and iOS. I want to run it and have a complete fucking experience where everything just works out of the box with no regressions and a ton of compatible software. I'm getting 80% of it with Xorg at the moment. I'm getting 40% of it with Wayland.

80% because a ton of shit is perpetually broken in Linux:

  • HW video encoding/decoding acceleration in web browsers
  • General stability (each Linux kernel release has at the very least a few hundred critical regressions leading to HW and software malfunctioning)
  • API/ABI compatibility is a permanent joke in Linux (Snap/Flatpak sort of solve it by forcing you to install ... a whole extra distro)
  • Compatibility between Linux distros. It's a ton better than say 25 years ago, but still Linux distros are too different without any serious rationale behind that.

You cannot call Linux an OS even for these reasons. We have 100050000 incompatible contemporary software compilations where you're OK to run software built for them specifically.

There's no let's call it "The Linux OS". None. And now Wayland has broken it even further while it could have made Linux in general better. I really like how Wayland "feels", I've tried Wayfire a dozen times over the past couple of years. But then whenever I need to use my PC fully and not cherish at smooth fancy animations I go back to XFCE.

@Consolatis
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Sounds like its time to make your own distribution.

@birdie-github
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Sounds like its time to make your own distribution.

If I don't get other distros on board and I'm sure I won't, it'll become a famous XKCD comic:

standards_2x

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 13, 2024 •
edited

Custom Installing anything beyond a composed LiveCD with fedora is a fuckin litmus test. Granted I am all for establishing new standards cause living standards aren't standards at all.. BUT FIRST maybe we should consider some of the older standards that are being systematically dismantled. Like X11 and sysvinit (and other init systems not system daemons) and how to keep Linux in the hands of common computer users.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 14, 2024 •
edited

Okay, this whole.. Unified Repo thing is gonna be a tedious nightmare. Does mean though it will be a hell of an accomplishment and it will be one less tedious nightmare ANYONE ELSE outside OpenBSD will EVER have to go through to just get X11 sources.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Good thing I can use that to fuel the task at hand.

@bodqhrohro
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@binex-dsk

Using the non-functional BallSackWM doesn't work to prove your point.

X11 WMs don't need to be "functional" for that matter. They can fit in less than 1 KLOC and basic things provided by X.Org itself would still work.

Quiet, Wayland shill.

@bodqhrohro
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Mutter - completely broken

It doesn't even exist for several years anymore. The mutter executable is just for tests like rootston. It became a library being a part of Gnome Shell and barely usable alone.

@mattatobin
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I can attest to mutter and its barely useful state with like 2 and a half inch tall titlebars on my 2k screen at native resolution.

@binex-dsk
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HW video encoding/decoding acceleration in web browsers

Works fine for me.

General stability (each Linux kernel release has at the very least a few hundred critical regressions leading to HW and software malfunctioning)

Never had any software or HW malfunctions in a decade of Linux.

API/ABI compatibility is a permanent joke in Linux (Snap/Flatpak sort of solve it by forcing you to install ... a whole extra distro)

Never had any issues here.

Compatibility between Linux distros. It's a ton better than say 25 years ago, but still Linux distros are too different without any serious rationale behind that.

Never had any distro compatibility issues.

X11 WMs don't need to be "functional" for that matter. They can fit in less than 1 KLOC and basic things provided by X.Org itself would still work.

There are no functional X11 WMs that have under 10KLOC. DWM doesn't work properly due to Suckmore's terrible programming practices.

Quiet, Wayland shill.

There's nothing "Wayland shill" about stating a true fact that it works perfectly for me when using wlroots.

You seem to be much more suited for Windows or MacOS. Why don't you use those? No fragmentation or anything!

@mattatobin
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I am glad you never have issues with software or your operating system. Other people do, please stand aside.

@bodqhrohro
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bodqhrohro commented Jun 15, 2024 •
edited

@binex-dsk

There are no functional X11 WMs that have under 10KLOC. DWM doesn't work properly due to Suckmore's terrible programming practices.

What's non-functional about it? It does even support EWMH, AFAIR.

And the point is that you don't even need to have all functionality of "WM" in one program. One manages windows, another one maintains window rules, third one draws decorations, fourth one handles global keybindings. This is totally different from the Wayland situation where compositor is technically the only, is above everything, and such modular software plugs instead into the compositor via compositor-specific APIs, if they exist at all. While on X11 all communication happens via the common bus and X11 atoms. Theoretically, we have D-Bus instead already, but something somehow goes wrong, and take all that BSDtards who perceive D-Bus as something alien (but not X11, huh? it's alien for all and every UNIX-like systems, just as any graphics at all; they're all console-based primarily, regardless of what Windozetards migrating to just another Booboontu or Pidora think about it).

No fragmentation or anything!

Don't pretend Aston, Talisman and bblean are mutually compatible lol.

@mattatobin

I am glad you never have issues with software or your operating system.

Don't you realize that issues with software are direct outcomes of software choices (and disciplinary choices, primarily)?

If a user puts a working chainsaw into mineral wool insulation and gets injuries, it's not a problem with the chainsaw.

@birdie-github
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Works fine for me.

This has been the absolute worst bane of Linux for the past 25 years.

Linux fanatics just do not care about anyone else rather than themselves.

Linux fanatics don't even have the guts to admit that "What works for them" has been achieved through pain and tears and dozens of hours of grappling with issues.

Linux fanatics are egregious LIARS.

You see, you will not find anything like that https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Hardware_video_acceleration for Windows, Android, MacOS and iOS.

Why? Because unlike in Linux these actual operating systems provide actual working APIs and people are none the wiser because everything works out of the fucking box.

And this is why 30 years from now Linux will continue to enjoy its 2% market share. TBO even these 2% are a huge stinking lie because the vast majority of Linux users are IT professionals and geeks who can solve an infinite torrent of errors and regressions on a daily basis. They don't use an OS, they are being (ab)used by a software compilation pretending to be/touted as an OS.

@birdie-github
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birdie-github commented Jun 15, 2024 •
edited

And then you find such revelations and instantly realize whoever develops Linux is just insane:

https://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2024/06/14/fedora-workstation-development-update-artificial-intelligence-edition/

Day and Jakub Steiner to come up with a streamlined user experience in GNOME Software to let you install the binary NVIDIA driver and provide you with an integrated graphical user interface help to sign the kernel module for use with secure boot.

You must be fucking kidding me.

Not only the person who wrote this document is insane because instead of Fedora compiling and signing NVIDIA modules, they actually want people to fuck with their PCs, install their own MOK certificate and sign kernel drivers. And did you know that many OEMs wipe clean installed user MOK certifications from BIOS on each BIOS update? Ah, poor Linux normally don't update BIOS, I've totally forgotten about this. You see BIOS updates have been made part of Windows updates for many years now, no such luxury for Linux.

I filed this https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2745 two fucking years ago. Not heard anything even remotely rational and sane from Fedora.

Linux is "an OS"? Linux is a crapshoot of epic proportions.

And it's no coincidence that the vast majority of Wayland developers are enrolled by RedHat/Fedora/Gnome. The way it's developed and promoted clearly indicates these people couldn't care less about average people or proper backwards compatibility.

@binex-dsk
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Linux fanatics don't even have the guts to admit that "What works for them" has been achieved through pain and tears and dozens of hours of grappling with issues.

I went from a blank SSD to 100% working Sway installation in 10 minutes. That's less time than it takes to install Windows.

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Jun 15, 2024 •
edited

@birdie-github

Why? Because unlike in Linux these actual operating systems provide actual working APIs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Acceleration_API

Works even on proprietary NVidia.

And this is why 30 years from now Linux will continue to enjoy its 2% market share.

No, it's because Windows is pre-installed by default. Android is far worse than GNU/Linux (and even worse than MS Windows) and it has a large share on the market.

@Consolatis
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Whats with this obsession for market share numbers? Why should anybody (but advertisers or providers of proprietary software) care about that? I care about a system that has the potential to be trusted (e.g. open source is an absolute requirement) and that I can customize in a way that suits me personally.

@birdie-github
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No, it's because Windows is pre-installed by default.

No, because you don't fucking understand computing and you're talking absolute pristine BS.

With Windows you get the guaranteed experience, 25+ years of binary compatibility and an average of 10 years of driver API/ABI compatibility where you can switch between drivers however you want in case there are occasional extremely rare regressions.

Works even on proprietary NVidia.

Enlighten me how I can use NVIDIA in Fedora. Oh, wait, I cannot, Fedora does NOT support NVIDIA at all. RPMFusion, a repository no one can vouch for, maintained by a bunch of anonymouses and using God knows what build infrastructure? FML, you must be insane to use it. And it's not too much different in other Linux distros.

(I've been using NVIDIA with RedHat and then Fedora since the late 90s, but I'm a fucking IT professional and it doesn't count).

I've had exactly zero times in my entire life that Windows updates have resulted in an unbootable system, starting with Windows 98SE where the Windows Updates system was introduced.

With Linux?

With Linux you've got a regression upon regression upon regression. Updating the kernel is a fucking Russian roulette where you never know what will break this time around.

Here take this:

https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2024-8c4744962d

And I won't even show kernel bugzilla and LKML posts where people complain that fucking storage is broken for some in 6.9 and this gets repeated for every fucking kernel release.

And don't get me started on how there have been multiple regressions in the kernel leading to data loss. Errors in file system drivers, errors in storage backends (e.g. SCSI), etc. etc. etc.

And what about my poor run of the mill laptop which was unbootable for two straight kernel releases because no one gave a fuck?

https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206175

Spent a whole day debugging it and finally Linus found the culprit, the very bad code that shouldn't have ever worked.

No one in Linux aside Redhat in RHEL gives a flying fuck about stability and bug-free experience. Too bad RHEL is not a "desktop" Linux distro per se. It's actually the only Linux OS that I fully trust.

Too bad considering drivers are part of the kernel, RHEL is mostly applicable for servers and relatively old PCs.

There's no obsession with market numbers. There's an obsession with stability and compatibility in Linux distros both of which are basically swear words. No one gives a fuck about them, again aside from RedHat.

And the way Wayland is being pushed on people indicates how little Linux developers in general care about any of this. Eat shit or fuck off, that's their motto. Everywhere you look it's either incomplete, broken or buggy as fuck. That's why most sane people try Linux for a few short years, get fed up with its "peculiarities" and go back to greener pastures where quality and compatibility are a given, not a fucking afterthought.

Or, alternatively you turn into a fanatic, turn a blind eye to all its glaring issues, and scream at the top of your lungs how "BUT IT WORKS FOR ME"!!

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 15, 2024 •
edited

To be fair, that windows assurance of compatibility and win32 api its self basically are .. negotiable from Windows 8 on.

Also, @bodqhrohro if that were true things would run WORSE when I have had a chance to bash it into some sort of working order. This is not the prevailing trend for me. While it is true for people.. it seems.. it isn't for software. The machine serves me I do not serve the machine. I will cooperate with the machine but at the first sign of defiance and I will destroy the cyberson of a bitch.

This should be normal fucking procedure especially in the age of the first sparks of artificial insanity.

@mattatobin
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Also, since when does Redhat care about stability? Its just CentOS Stream with fixes their direct customers pay for.

@binex-dsk
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Or, alternatively you turn into a fanatic, turn a blind eye to all its glaring issues, and scream at the top of your lungs how "BUT IT WORKS FOR ME"

You know, it's really not my problem that you don't know how to make your system work (basic maintenance).

Why so aggressive? Maybe instead of complaining, fix it or use Windows.

@birdie-github
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birdie-github commented Jun 15, 2024 •
edited

To be fair, that windows assurance of compatibility and win32 api its self basically are .. negotiable from Windows 8 on.

I've never claimed it's perfect but it exists. You can install MS Office 97 on Windows 11. In Linux? Good luck with most of Qt1/Qt2/Qt3/GTK1 applications which are neither binary compatible, nor can be compiled on modern Linux distros. Oh, and coreutils have seen so many incompatible changes over the years most Loki games installers are broken.

Linux has the only stable API and that's the Linux kernel syscalls. Linus actually cares. Too bad he is the only one and everything on top breaks compatibility every other moon.

Also, since when does Redhat care about stability? Its just CentOS Stream with fixes their direct customers pay for.

I've had zero issues with RHEL in over 20 years. None. I couldn't care less about its free derivatives.

CentOS has never been anything of any importance for RedHat and it's been dead for years now since RedHat made it impossible to copy/steal RHEL.

@Monsterovich
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@birdie-github

With Windows you get the guaranteed experience, 25+ years of binary compatibility and an average of 10 years of driver API/ABI compatibility

Because on Windows almost everything is binary and closed-source, so they have to support even super ancient software and keep a lot of legacy stuff (such as 32-bit, which Linux has already discarded as unnecessary). In GNU/Linux, on the other hand, software can be easily re-compiled. Except for commercial software, perhaps.

Enlighten me how I can use NVIDIA in Fedora

I don't know, I don't use shitty distributions.

I've had exactly zero times in my entire life that Windows updates have resulted in an unbootable system

Same with GNU/Linux for me.

And don't get me started on how there have been multiple regressions in the kernel leading to data loss. Errors in file system drivers, errors in storage backends (e.g. SCSI), etc. etc. etc.

I've never had one. Why use "nighly" versions of the kernel? Because that's the only scenario where it could happen.

And the way Wayland is being pushed on people indicates how little Linux developers in general care about any of this. Eat shit or fuck off, that's their motto. Everywhere you look it's either incomplete, broken or buggy as fuck.

The way Wayland is being pushed is very similar to the way MS treats its users. They don't care about the users, because the consumer will buy anything. Perhaps MS Windows is not as broken as Wayland, but the attitude is the same. The last good Windows was XP.

@bodqhrohro
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bodqhrohro commented Jun 15, 2024 •
edited

@birdie-github

has been achieved through pain and tears and dozens of hours of grappling with issues

There's nothing wrong with that. That's how things are earned in reality. Consumerism when high quality of life is reached too easily leads to mental health problems. Humans are upgraded monkeys, they need the motivation system to function properly for stability and productivity. Gains should be backed by efforts. Just look what bastards do "Golden youth" become, who are used to getting anything they want for free from their wealthy parents.

And this is why 30 years from now Linux will continue to enjoy its 2% market share.

Unless enforced by the state to fight the capitalist consumerism and external control by US agencies, like it happens with the Red Star OS in DPRK.

Or if a significant stake of users are motivated to become IT specialists rather than stupid lamers, like in India.

I probably mentioned already that I believe that a license should be demanded for using a computer, like for driving a car.

And the LIAR here is you, because you know jolly well that Android is Linux, that slatephones already overcame PCs in popularity, and that Android is an eternal lag-o-drome despite extensively adding up CPU cores and gigabytes of RAM, with ways of solving things in a much more ass-backwards manner than even in Wayland (just show me a screen capture API there, at least, and explain why typical screen captures from Android end up with a volume slider shown on the screen, or the notification drawer visible at the end, lol). Oh, and that still does not prevent Windoze lamers from learning how to use Android with all its stupidities, rather than dreaming of running Windows .exes on a phone. In fact, many Windows apps were already ported to Android lol. And under the hood, it holds almost the whole Linux power for those who need it, and also it eases porting GNU/Linux distributions onto the phones (which was much harder yet possible in Windows Mobile era).

whoever develops Linux is just insane

Whatever. Masses have always considered abnormal people who show them innovations as freaks.

Embracing sanity is the late USSR narrative to fit everyone whose intellect is higher than of kolkhoz bandites ruling the state into norms, by the means of punitive psychiatry. I'm totally not surprised you share this mentality. You can depart from sovok, but sovok cannot depart from you.

You see BIOS updates have been made part of Windows updates for many years now, no such luxury for Linux.

Don't pretend like Wintel is not a thing and PCs are not intended to be used with Windows only.

Fitting GNU/Linux onto machines that are intended for Windows is always at the own risk of those who do it. Users of Sun or SGI workstations somehow didn't complain that Solaris/IRIX run poorly on some other hardware. Because why would you buy such hardware in the first place? You're silly?

25+ years of binary compatibility

Compatibility with old crap?

Not everyone is a boomer like OP to need that, c'mon.

I have used enough of awful WinAPI crap from 90s to admit that it's totally unusable in modern reality and should be rewritten (which is not that hard, after all, given how primitive that software was). M$ had massively persuaded people into thinking that GUI and mouse are somehow revolutionary (just like it happened in 10s with stupid capacitive touchscreens), to artificially create a market niche for it instead of MS-DOS. This led to a ton of crippled apps developed by chaotically dropping widgets onto a form in VB/Delphi or whatever. Which required much more efforts for users than their TUI predecessors: because of adding a tiresome context switch between the keyboard and the mouse (laptops with touchpads, as well as trackpoints, emerged later, and early touchpads were rough as well). While tabstopping and keyboard control in general were poorly thought over there, if at all.

Apple doesn't care about old crap, and requires developers to rewrite everything every ≈10 years. And still has great sales. Think about it.

Updating the kernel is a fucking Russian roulette where you never know what will break this time around.

You intentionally ignore bricking computers by Windows updates, right?

If you want to reduce the chance of bricking, just use LTS. Windows LTSC, or Debian Stable, or RHEL, whatever. It's the fault of development process in general, not of certain software.

But not all the users are happy with rotten software tested for several years, surprise? They want freshest things that are on the hype, but somehow also expect them to be stable and bug-free? I'm not up to deal with unrealistic expectations here.

@mattatobin

I will destroy the cyberson of a bitch

Okay, be ready to escape to the woods, hehe.

This should be normal fucking procedure especially in the age of the first sparks of artificial insanity.

The AI revolution would happen inevitably. You can't stop the progress. Embrace the Matrix or isolates yourself like Amish do. (They're pretty successful, BTW, and slowly take over US.) But would you fight and defend meatbags from robots (and their loyal personal army of meatbags)? Are you ready for that?

@bodqhrohro
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@birdie-github

You can install MS Office 97 on Windows 11

You can also eat compote with a fork.

Just tell me why. It's like a LED bulb hanging on a cord from the ceiling like an Ilyich's bulb a century ago.

@Consolatis
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Some of these comments are something else. Phoronix forums too boring?

@birdie-github
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birdie-github commented Jun 16, 2024 •
edited

LMAO, we are back to the usual shitty excuses:

  • "You're not using the right distro"
  • "You're not using the right MESA release"
  • "You're not using the right kernel"
  • "You're not using the right web browser"
  • "You're not using the right DE"
  • "You're not using the right hardware"

In conclusion:

  • "Linux is so fucking shitty all around you need a very special combination of the kernel, DE, distro, MESA and hardware for it to work flawlessly and the God forbid you upgrade any of that recklessly without first giving others a decent amount of time to be your personal beta testers".

Case in point: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/778428/weird-cant-install-linux-on-an-itx-machine

Just like 25 years ago the excuses in 2024 are quite the same. And someone seriously believes Linux's market share is so low because Windows is preinstalled and Linux is not". FML, you must be mentally challenged to claim that.

You can also eat compote with a fork.

This is why Linux will forever remain an ass obscure OS. Its (most vocal) users don't even care about backward compatibility. LMAO.

And the LIAR here is you, because you know jolly well that Android is Linux,

  • A highly curated old heavily patched Linux kernel which maintains compatibility for at least 5 years.
  • No glibc, Xorg, Wayland, coreutils, RPM or DEB.
  • The Linux kernel in Android can be replaced and Google has already done that for certain Nest devices.
  • A completely different FS layout.
  • No root access (by default).
  • dm-verity and the base system is immutable.
  • No individual upgradable packages.
  • Extreme regression testing.
  • Basically compatible only with smartphones/tablets. Out of the box near completely unusable for PCs and Servers.

Yeah, totally, a "Linux distro". LMAO. Linux fanatics will call a duck "Linux" because the duck walked near Linus's house. The amount of coping is simply staggering.

No, Android is not Linux [distro], it just happens to use the Linux kernel. LMAO.

Some of these comments are something else.

Yeah, Linux users hate logic, common sense and rationale. Nothing new.

Phoronix forums too boring?

You don't say. Fanaticism, blind hatred, aggression towards anything not open source and wild conspiracy theories why companies shun Linux. A never ending torrent of demands. No gratefulness whatsoever. Phoronix forums aren't boring, they are sore.

Edit: You said "old hardware must be perfectly supported", right?

How about Intel UHD 605 which, according to Intel, https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/graphics/126788.html , is dead old? Well, https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/i915/kernel/-/issues/11171 - completely fucking broken.

@dm17
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dm17 commented Jun 16, 2024

Yeah, Linux users hate logic, common sense and rationale. Nothing new.

It isn't fair to tie their fanaticism or lack of rationality to their use of Linux. If the rest of their lives were on display, then their delusions about software would pale in comparison to the rest. So let's focus on the goal here... I like the efforts above to collaborate on the next Xorg / Xenocara unified repo (or similar).

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 16, 2024 •
edited

So should I at this point add more fuel to the flames by bringing up Rust in the Linux kernel lol? I mean I enjoy the debate but some people are getting a bit too upset about it.. If only all this upset was put into improving software like 10 years ago tehn we wouldn't have to be bickering today.. BUT IT WASN'T so today people just need to either figure out for their own damn selves how they will deal with this crap OR band together with others they can stand being around and do something .. anything .. but bitchin about it soley.

NOW Do not get me wrong I am not attacking anyone, at the moment, but we do have to remember as fun as it is to be outraged at everything, outrage alone ain't gonna fix shit. Look at Wayland. LOL

@fredvs
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fredvs commented Jun 16, 2024 •
edited

I like the efforts above to collaborate on the next Xorg / Xenocara unified repo (or similar).

Imho, this is the right direction for a better future than Wayland paradise.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 16, 2024 •
edited

Well I spent the night .. slowly as to not trigger any bandwith abuse bits downloading recent versions of the X11 components.. I am just compairing and contrasting between this pseudo-stable fedora 39 setup (which is not possible to get from an install cd) and the openbsd tree .. its all gonna be latest or near latest versions.

Then lay out the tree committing it up to the repo. Then updating is just updating. I wonder how much of Xenocara's build system can be adapted cause it looks pretty thin which leads me to believe it is dependent on a larger build system so I may have to come up with my own.

Common Desktop (components) vs Free Desktop (Mono-culture Desktop Flavors).. Which one would I choose ;)

@dm17
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dm17 commented Jun 16, 2024

@mattatobin I think it was Hyperbola - if I'm not mistaken - where you can checkout the latest progress a Linux distro made in order to adopt Xenocara.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Jun 16, 2024 •
edited

So far for Xorg allegedly not being developed anymore:
https://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2024-June/059249.html

And, e.g., IceWM, also still actively maintained:
https://github.com/ice-wm/icewm/releases/tag/3.6.0

X11 and Xorg live and are still needed. Don't let people talk them down.

@bor-real
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Glory to X11!

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 16, 2024 •
edited

@dm17 I wanna stay far away from Hyperbola please.

@probonopd This is why I do not want to just go off half cocked on some doomed X11 fork.. Or create a fractured X11 landscape when there is no need but someone should be ready and established on the linux side should xorg's development dry up or parts do cause only xwayland server is being accounted for at some point. Someone other than OpenBSD.

@bodqhrohro
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bodqhrohro commented Jun 17, 2024 •
edited

@birdie-github

And someone seriously believes Linux's market share is so low because Windows is preinstalled and Linux is not".

What's wrong with that claim? If you sell some hardware with GNU/Linux, you have resources to make sure it works well with this exact hardware. Objections?

This is why Linux will forever remain an ass obscure OS

You totally skipped the Apple argument, right?

A completely different FS layout.

Yeah, and instanity when flashing Android devices. Ask any ROM modder or phone repair service.

No individual upgradable packages.

The partial upgradability distinguishes smart phone operating systems from feature phone operating systems. So you just concluded Android devices are feature phones by default?

Out of the box near completely unusable for PCs and Servers.

This lag-o-drome is barely usable for phones anyway too.

No, Android is not Linux [distro], it just happens to use the Linux kernel. LMAO.

Then explain why Termux works jolly well there.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 17, 2024 •
edited

K have to stop y'all here. Linux the kernel means it is linux. Now does it mean it conforms to GNU/Linux or Gnome-Freedesktop/Linux that is a different question. Android is Linux.

While I am all for carrying over Dos/Windows concepts to Linux one must resist the tenancy to treat Linux the kernel and gnu/linux userspace like an all in one thing like nt kernel and win32 apps being all Windows.

@probonopd
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The thing is, no one really standardizes the upper layers of the "Desktop Linux" platform. Hence every desktop environment and every distribution is at liberty to do as they please (e.g., which libaries to ship, which versions to require, in which locations to install libraries), effectively creating a fractured landscape. And Wayland makes it way worse. As a result, you cannot depend on things working the same across the board on all distributions.

(This is why I have largely switched to FreeBSD, which aims to be one coherent operating system from bottom to top. Unfortunately the GUI subsystem is not part of nor released together with their base system, creating its own set of challenges. But maybe one day the situation will improve. Currently Haiku imho comes closest to how an open source desktop operating system should be put together and released - including a native GUI and native Qt look and feel. If only it had graphics acceleration.)

@birdie-github
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K have to stop y'all here. Linux the kernel means it is linux. Now does it mean it conforms to GNU/Linux or Gnome-Freedesktop/Linux that is a different question. Android is Linux.

Android can perfectly run without Linux. End of story. Get lost.

And when people say "Linux" they don't mean just the kernel which all by itself is 100% useless.

Good luck doing anything with just the kernel.

Linux fanatics continue to prove a complete lack of intelligence.

@bodqhrohro
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Android can perfectly run without Linux

What would be the use of it then?

@bodqhrohro
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And don't pretend like Android NDK doesn't exist and that serious apps can be done with pure Java/Kotlin and no native code.

@birdie-github
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birdie-github commented Jun 17, 2024 •
edited

What would be the use of it then?

  1. Google Nest.
  2. Again, the Linux kernel in Android is 100% replaceable. It's not its integral part, it's not even something users know or care about.

And don't pretend like Android NDK doesn't exist and that serious apps can be done with pure Java/Kotlin and no native code.

How does Android NDK relate to Linux distros?

My Fedora and Ubuntu have no Android NDK packages?

Poor Linux fanatics. They see Linux everywhere while it's pretty much nowhere. No one has talked about web servers yet. I'll tell you a secret: Linux can be replaced with FreeBSD in a matter of hours. FreeBSD supports the vast majority of "Linux" software and it added docker support 7 years ago or so.

Anyways, this has been a conversation about Linux on the desktop. It doesn't exist on the desktop. There's a horrible mess of software with no backward compatibility, no QA/QC and constant regressions.

BTW, as a Fedora user I'm super fucking happy. MESA 24.0 has broken HW AV1 decoding support on AMD GPUs:

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/11197

Not a fucking day goes by that something serious and critical gets broken.

@bodqhrohro
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bodqhrohro commented Jun 17, 2024 •
edited

Google Nest.

Not interested in FAANG surveillance crap.

it's not even something users know or care about

Do you imply GNU/Linux users have to deal with the kernel lol?

How does Android NDK relate to Linux distros?

It's related to the access to Linux syscalls. Apps which use it might break if you "just" replace the kernel with something other.

If that wasn't a concern, Debian/kFreeBSD would be a drop-in replacement to Debian/GNU/Linux just as well.

There's a horrible mess of software with no backward compatibility

Russians use similar argumentation when dehumanizing Ukrainians and justifying the war. Like, it's not even a nation, not a real people, historical mistake, Russo-Polish vinaigrette, and whatever. So again, I'm not surprised to see such arguments from you. They only highlight your cultural background, which inevitably oozes out of you with calques of rotten LOR memes.

@birdie-github
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I provided solid cold facts, and with no counter-arguments you decided to twist everything and turn it into something political. Sorry, try that with your grandma or your younger sibling. That won't work with me.

I especially appreciated the "dehumanization" reference because surely you applied it directly to me since you even know that I frequented LOR but I left it 9 years ago.

Considering I have helped resolve over three hundred bugs in various open source projects including GCC and the kernel without which Linux cannot exist, it just shows what kind of person you are. And it's not like I've ever stopped. Just last week I filed three new ones, one of which has already been fixed.

Do you know who raised the issue of the infamous OOM stall in Linux? Yours truly: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM

What did it ensue? First, most distros included early-oomd, then Lennart implemented systemd-oomd.

And since you've decided to make it personal continue your "Linux is underappreciated and shunned" circle jerk of believing that it's Microsoft that somehow prevents Linux from being a popular widely used OS.

Not the fact that:

  • Linux [distros] has no backward/forward compatibility
  • Linux [distros] is extremely bug-ridden
  • Linux [distros] is extremely regression-prone
  • Linux [distros] lacks a ton of software and has no native games per se (Indies and emulation don't count)

If Linux is perfect, honestly what the fuck are you doing here? Enjoy Xorg/Wayland, whatever works for you.

This is a topic about something as crucial and central as GUI in Linux being in a horrible pathetic state be it Xorg or Wayland, but somehow I'm guilty for that, right??

Remember this?

The controversy around systemd culminated in personal attacks and alleged death threats against Lennart Poettering.

Remember this?

Also in 2011, when asked why the Linux desktop hadn't been widely adopted by mainstream users, he answered that: "Linux is still too fragmented...[and] needs to be streamlined..."

Exactly what I've been talking about for over two decades now.

Fuck crazy Linux fanatics, the absolute worst thing about Linux, keep eating shit and pretending it's the world conspiracy against it. Somehow the OS attracts the most marginal belligerent and evil people.

@Consolatis
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@birdie-github I do have to say I appreciate your talent to get people stop visiting this gist just so they don't have to read your "comments" anymore.

@mattatobin
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mattatobin commented Jun 17, 2024 •
edited

Well if you think about it .. CDE was that standardization from the x-server to the user.. For a while both KDE (pre-plasma) and Gnome (pre-3) took that standardized mantle and Gnome won. KDE will always be a joke. It looks the part (or used to) but doesn't deliver. While Gnome UX design holds back the power GTK3 still has.

I believe this can be achieved barring driver issues with x11 and a more generic-ized gtk3.

Yes, fork GTK3 and modify it into a more generic toolkit.

@zarlo
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zarlo commented Jun 18, 2024

@birdie-github

Linux [distros] lacks a ton of software and has no native games per se (Indies and emulation don't count)

On the game front that is a bit of an over exaggeration, like all of valves games have native ports (have for years) and if a game playable under WINE/Proton i would still class that as just about native as 99% of the time no game files need to change (not counting config files) and it better a game to be playable under WINE/Proton then to have a shit Linux port that does not get updated just like the borderlands games

And since you've decided to make it personal continue your "Linux is underappreciated and shunned" circle jerk of believing that it's Microsoft that somehow prevents Linux from being a popular widely used OS.

well having windows be the default install for most systems does not help as it hard to get people to use the none default software people either need a need/want to do so and for most people windows does what they need so they don't change (most people would be happy with a system running KDE). The only reason people install things like chrome as IE then firefox became to "shit" and now most people are in the habit of installing it when setting up a system

Linux [distros] is extremely bug-ridden

i feel this was put in the list in bad faith

Linux [distros] has no backward/forward compatibility

i don't see this as an issue as there are simple to use ways around that unless its kernel level then its not as simple

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