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Hacking the Rectangular Starlink Dishy Cable
@jbowler
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jbowler commented Dec 15, 2023

So tell me what I need to know in plain English if you would. I think I would need rj45 cable, but what gauge and cable type is best?

You're at the limit of copper (twisted pair) Ethernet tech. You need to span a 200ft rise plus however many feet there are to the dish location and, at the other end, the router in someone's apartment (if I understand what you are trying to do). Twisted pair ethernet is limited to 100m (~328ft) max for all cable combinations. For StarLink you could drop from gigabit ethernet to 100Mbit but users can tell if they know how to check.

Your best bet is probably the Gen1 kit at present (since we don't know what Gen3 is yet...) Gen1 has a power injector and uses RJ45, I believe that allows the injector to be remote from the router. Alongside the 100m of Ethernet cable you run 100m of local code approved power cable (what this is varies enormously with region) correctly sized for the run length and local code requirements. In the US IRC it's something like no more than 10 or 20% power loss. This is discussed in this gist (the original stuff, right at the top!) In fact at 240V you can probably ignore this; 300ft of 14AWG power cable is about 5Ω (there and back), 100W at 240V is 1/2.4A, so that's under 1W loss in the cable if I got the arithmetic right.

With Gen3 if it really is possible just to use off-the-shelf RJ45 in place of the StarLink (150ft) cable then you need CAT5e (as used with Gen2) or CAT6 (including CAT6A). CAT6 normally uses 23AWG in the varieties of cable you would use but quadruple check that it really is (ideally measure the actual resistance!) Normally look for "pure" copper cable (not CCA - copper clad aluminum) but if you are buying a pre-fabricated cable (easiest, normally the best connections) check the actual resistance; send it back if it is too high.

Resistance figures vary, this site https://www.kbe-elektrotechnik.com/en/service/awg-table/ has 70.1Ω/km, so that 7Ω/100m. All 8 conductors are used in Gen2; we certainly don't know about Gen3 yet, so 100m has 7/4Ω there and back, 3.5Ω round-trip. So look at the original gist; the original assertion is that Gen2 becomes unstable at 2.5Ω. If that is correct you are limited to 70m for a CAT6 cable. Doing the same calcs for CAT5e at 24AWG, 89.2Ω/km, and I end up with a max run of 56m which is close to the longest, 150ft, official StarLink cable (CAT5e).

You could try a longer cable and check for stability of the system with the original router and, for Gen2, one or other of the ways of adapting the connectors at each end to RJ45 (minimizing the probably 24AWG CAT5e that is left.)

If you are actually building the structure then make sure there is building power on the roof, make sure the apartment (etc) owners/lessors pay for the shared power in their lease agreement, stick a suitable (SFP) router up there and run fibre to each floor, or maybe even each unit. Get some techie in to set up a commercial internet link, possibly a commercial StarLink one and do the maintenance (which will be required.) It is possible to do individual StarLink antennas with that arrangement but you put the routers in bypass mode on the roof and run the data down using VPN tech; techie required (a good one.)

@Shangrila385
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Shangrila385 commented Dec 15, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Dec 15, 2023

On a general note WiFi-6 has a stated range of 45m; curiously close, well, the same as, the length of the longest StarLink Gen 3 cable. This is "line of sight" - i.e. nothing between the sender and receiver other than thin (we hope) air. WiFi-5 comes in at 25m or so, about 80ft, but I run WiFi (not WiFi 6 yet) between my own buildings which are about 100ft apart.

So a Gen3 with power and the standard (package) setup can, in fact, do a WiFi link at way more than the StarLink max speed to something 150ft away; WiFi-6 maxes out at 9.6Gbps. I manage that on my CAT5e Cu twisted pair network but only in a carefully tested setup; less than 100ft (maybe 50). In fact WiFi-5 at a theoretical 3.5Gbps is still way more than StarLink (residential) and my own copper network.

TP-Link (who I regard as reputable) have a range of "WiFi extenders" starting (based on Amazon prices) from $20 for a WiFi-5 one. So far as I can see it should be possible to use one of these to set up what is effectively a point-to-point solution; no need for copper or fibre. I've looked at p2p in the past but they have been somewhat more expensive ($100's rather than $10's) and often lower bandwidth (10Mbps).

The solution does require power at both ends but I find that fairly easy (at low power) even without solar.

@SailorBruce
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I have a CradlePoint router w/ a PoE++ (802.3bt) port that will push up to 60W. I don't live in a snowy area, so I plan to keep the snow melt off. My thought was that I could swap the pinouts to make the antenna work directly from the router as a PSE (power source equipment) and eliminate a whole bunch of custom cables, and a dedicated PoE injector. However, it doesn't seem to be working....

Is this possible? If so, how should I build the termination that comes out of the antenna and connects to the PoE router port?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 19, 2024

Is this possible?

No. The StarLink antenna doesn't support any of the PoE protocols so a PSE which uses them simply won't send out any power. The latest 802.3 standards have plenty of power but it would require a 48V 802.3bt PoE tap (a splitter) to get the 48V out , e.g:

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Industrial-Gigabit-PoE-Splitter/dp/B08KYHX1QS

Then it would be necessary to take the 48V output and wire it back to a passive injector... In other words pretty much twice as much work (you just save power cabling from the 802.3bt PSE to the PD, the antenna.)

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 19, 2024

Off topic but still relevant to understanding the Gen 2 antenna here is a good, clear, description of how the 802.3 PoE standards work:

https://www.skyworksinc.com/-/media/SkyWorks/SL/documents/public/white-papers/understanding-the-ieee-8023bt-poe-standard.pdf

The circuit breakdown of the Gen2 router suggests to me that it lacks the electronics to do that, although it does seem to have the ability to measure current draw so there might be some communication capability there. The mixed up wiring of the ethernet pairs, however, prevents 802.3bt working; IRC the antenna looks like a shorted-out PD.

@WIMMPYIII
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I have a CradlePoint router w/ a PoE++ (802.3bt) port that will push up to 60W. I don't live in a snowy area, so I plan to keep the snow melt off. My thought was that I could swap the pinouts to make the antenna work directly from the router as a PSE (power source equipment) and eliminate a whole bunch of custom cables, and a dedicated PoE injector. However, it doesn't seem to be working....

Is this possible? If so, how should I build the termination that comes out of the antenna and connects to the PoE router port?

60w isnt going to cut it.

@SailorBruce
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SailorBruce commented Feb 19, 2024 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Feb 20, 2024

Thanks for the info. I have a much better understanding of the issue now that I've failed a bit and read the SkyWorks doc. I now have working power and signal to the rectangular (gen2) dish. It makes sense that you have to flip the conductors to put power on the wires that Dishy wants, then swap the wires back so that the signal is back to where it is supposed to be. I'm still having problems though. About every 40-50 seconds, the PoE injector reboots. I get the same behavior with different cables, and when I plug dishy into my laptop or the router. This is from the router:
@.***: /]$ tcpdump -n -i starlinkvlan tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol decode listening on starlinkvlan, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length
262144 bytes
13:19:32.638287 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:36.638274 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:38.181021 IP6 fe80::2412:acff:fe1a:8001 > ff02::2: ICMP6, router
solicitation, length 16
13:19:39.698323 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:42.788281 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:46.244886 IP6 fe80::2412:acff:fe1a:8001 > ff02::2: ICMP6, router
solicitation, length 16
13:19:48.458300 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:51.538347 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:51.540257 ARP, Request who-has 192.168.100.100 tell 192.168.100.1,
length 46
13:19:53.556754 IP 192.168.100.1.67 > 255.255.255.255.68: BOOTP/DHCP,
Reply, length 300
13:19:53.578276 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 315
13:19:53.588961 IP 192.168.100.1.67 > 255.255.255.255.68: BOOTP/DHCP,
Reply, length 300
If you wait 40 seconds, it happens again. When I am plugged into the laptop, I can get 18 (sometimes 17, but never 20!) ping responses before the interface goes down and the laptop reports no path to host. It is as if Dishy is expecting something from the router and when it doesn't get it it reboots.... To make sure I hadn't broken something, I plugged everything back into the Starlink router. I used a different (and tested) ethernet cable, but the same RJ45 keystone connector that is wired into Dishy. Everything worked swimmingly, so I didn't break anything when I cut the back off of Dishy for the mount (www.starmount.com, no affiliation). That was a relief, but still not helpful. The only thing that I haven't eliminated from the problem is the PoE injector. However, it is brand new and works fine when I power my Raspberry Pi and move lots of data through it. Does anyone have documentation on the exact meaning of the LED status lights on the Yaosheng Model: YSNEAPL12001A ? Is there an extra step that I have missed in configuring the network that Dishy creates?

How well have you read over this thread. 60w is not enough to run a SL gen2. You realistically need near 100w power supply run stable. Gen2 peaks at well over 60w. The stock power supply is 96w and is pushed to its absolute limit at 150ft.

@SailorBruce
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SailorBruce commented Feb 20, 2024 via email

@Missoulajeff
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Missoulajeff commented Feb 20, 2024 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 21, 2024

The PoE injector will support up to 120W. Once I have it more juice from the bench power supply, it all got stable. The 5A current limit was starving Dishy.

Ah! Yes; this is a reported problem with boost converters. It seems from my measurements that there is a sudden very brief amp draw at pretty much exactly the time you reported the PoE/dish reboot. Here's the data:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4466245#gistcomment-4466245

So there is a large inrush (maybe) just after 40s; around 3.4A (see the comments at the end of my post). Buck converters seem to handle this ok while some (at least) boost converters do not. The Yaosheng is apparently designed for a battery supply (12V or 24V) and that would give it a large surge capability. One contributor above uses a super-capacitor on the output side but I don't like that because, while it would handle an inrush, it could fry the connectors or the ethernet magnetics; better to put it on the supply side of the boost converter.

Here's an earlier, and more conservative, measurement of the power requirements, the amperage graphs above are likely to be more accurate:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4463407#gistcomment-4463407

I couldn't find Yaosheng documentation either. It seems likely that they have done the measurements properly (i.e. using better equipment than I have) to get robust designs but that doesn't mean they designed the 120W version to work off anything other than a battery...

On average the current draw at 48V without snow-melt or pre-heat is under 1A. During boot it goes up to maybe 1.4A but this corresponds to the effects (on the average) of the large inrush at 45s (3.4A). Adding snow melt (etc) seems to add maybe 0.25A. Solar systems with a 48V battery should be fine but they need to provide at least 1A continuous (over 24 hours) to keep the Dish up and running.

@sjkjs
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sjkjs commented Mar 21, 2024

Is anybody else experiencing the dish going into a reboot loop in the past couple of weeks (possibly related to a recent firmware update)?

As soon as my dish comes online and obtains internet access, it reboots within about 5 seconds. It's in an infinite loop having done this for a few days straight now.

I've replaced the cable with a brand new genuine Starlink cable, crimped with a new RJ45 on the end. I've also replaced the power supply with a quality industrial 48V 2.5A supply. The problem persists.

At this point I was confident that the dish had gone bad, but interestingly if I plug it into the stock Starlink router, it works perfectly. Something has changed which is preventing my setup from working. Nothing was changed on my end (the parts I replaced were replaced after the fault started).

Considering it reboots shortly AFTER coming online, I suspect that Starlink is detecting that I'm not using the stock router and is issuing a reboot command.

Update: Of course, after spending the past 2 days on this problem and spending money trying to fix it, I solved (or at least made some progress) 30 minutes after making this post. I unplugged the cable between the POE injector and the network switch but left the dish plugged into the POE injector. So basically the dish was receiving power but did not have anything on the other end of the wire to talk to. It booted up and came online then started downloading a firmware update. After installing the update it rebooted (normal update process). After coming back up on the new firmware I plugged the cable back into the switch. It stayed online this time and, at least for 30 minutes so far, has been rock solid. I have no idea what happened but for some reason the previous firmware threw a fit when there was something on the other end of the cable.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Mar 21, 2024 via email

@bghira
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bghira commented Mar 21, 2024

sounds like you needed an update.. it worked once you plugged into stock router, probably then downloaded the update, and applied it later.

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Mar 21, 2024

Is anybody else experiencing the dish going into a reboot loop in the past couple of weeks (possibly related to a recent firmware update)?

As soon as my dish comes online and obtains internet access, it reboots within about 5 seconds. It's in an infinite loop having done this for a few days straight now.

I've replaced the cable with a brand new genuine Starlink cable, crimped with a new RJ45 on the end. I've also replaced the power supply with a quality industrial 48V 2.5A supply. The problem persists.

At this point I was confident that the dish had gone bad, but interestingly if I plug it into the stock Starlink router, it works perfectly. Something has changed which is preventing my setup from working. Nothing was changed on my end (the parts I replaced were replaced after the fault started).

Considering it reboots shortly AFTER coming online, I suspect that Starlink is detecting that I'm not using the stock router and is issuing a reboot command.

Update: Of course, after spending the past 2 days on this problem and spending money trying to fix it, I solved (or at least made some progress) 30 minutes after making this post. I unplugged the cable between the POE injector and the network switch but left the dish plugged into the POE injector. So basically the dish was receiving power but did not have anything on the other end of the wire to talk to. It booted up and came online then started downloading a firmware update. After installing the update it rebooted (normal update process). After coming back up on the new firmware I plugged the cable back into the switch. It stayed online this time and, at least for 30 minutes so far, has been rock solid. I have no idea what happened but for some reason the previous firmware threw a fit when there was something on the other end of the cable.

I had a client yesterday that had similar problems. Several power cycles router and injection brick and patiently waiting 30 minutes between. update went through and everything was fine after that.

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Mar 22, 2024 via email

@UnknowUser0815
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Hello, can someone please help me get an answer to the questions with the question marks?

I don't want to damage my hardware.

Is this setup possible or do I also need the Dish-RJ45 adapter?

If not, how do I patch the CAT cable between Dish (https://amzn.eu/d/9qXAmcy) and Edup PoE Injector (https://amzn.eu/d/1gppFWD)?

Thanks

2

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Sep 7, 2024

Hello, can someone please help me get an answer to the questions with the question marks?

I don't want to damage my hardware.

Is this setup possible or do I also need the Dish-RJ45 adapter?

If not, how do I patch the CAT cable between Dish (https://amzn.eu/d/9qXAmcy) and Edup PoE Injector (https://amzn.eu/d/1gppFWD)?

Thanks

2

Just cut 568b. All these purpose built injectors flip the power for you internally so all you need is standard 568b ends.

@UnknowUser0815
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Thx WIMMBYIII

Normally you use a second additional Edup device (Starlink to RJ45 adapter) into which you plug the end of the original router and this device also has a T-568B output connection to the PoE Injector. So you don't have to X-swap the cables.

But I don't want to use the original cable/router, just keep it for safety.

I was concerned about how the small adapter is pinned from the dish to RJ45, but I also assume T-568B.

@WIMMPYIII
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Thx WIMMBYIII

Normally you use a second additional Edup device (Starlink to RJ45 adapter) into which you plug the end of the original router and this device also has a T-568B output connection to the PoE Injector. So you don't have to X-swap the cables.

But I don't want to use the original cable/router, just keep it for safety.

I was concerned about how the small adapter is pinned from the dish to RJ45, but I also assume T-568B.

Yep and you can cut the router end and make a spx-90 to 568b pigtail and couple it if for whatever reason you want to use it.

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