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Hacking the Rectangular Starlink Dishy Cable

### jbowler commented Jul 26, 2023

I did my best to read through the whole thread. It's frustrating because I have only a limited background, and among other things the acronyms have thrown me at times.

It's a long set of comments and there are more questions than answers (like why don't systems running of 12V batteries work as well as 110V systems?)

My answers are cryptic because I do assume a certain knowledge set but for your purposes there a really only two important things to understand. The first is the electrical power equation:

`P = V × I`

That matters because the dish requires a certain amount of power with any given configuration and the router (or PoE) has to delivery that power; voltage and current don't matter, only the product counts. The second equation is Ohms law:

`V = I × R`

This matters because the cable itself takes power; the power to drive the current (I) down the line, and that creates a voltage drop across the cable (V).

Maybe the important thing here is that what I was saying is that my numbers (as reported in the various links) are completely consistent with yours, except, maybe, for the pre-heat behavior. The difference is that you measured current at the router power inlet. That inlet takes a voltage between 110V and 250V whereas all my measurements are the current on the cable which has a power supply of 48V (I used a PoE but it is a 48V PoE like the router IRC.)

So the router has to convert 122V (AC) with 0.3A for the dish to 48V with whatever power the dish requires. The conversion isn't 100% efficient but it will be in the range 80%-95%; assume 90% (arbitrary). This would mean that the router/cable assembly are being supplied with 33W at 48V (DC) which is a current of 0.69A.

That's pretty much identical to what I measured; a 5s average of 0.6 to 0.8A, looks like 0.7A to me!

The pre-heat figure is, however, a bit of a problem; 0.9A less 0.07A for the router means 100W, at 90% efficiency that means the cable assembly is getting 90W and this is the quoted (faceplate) limit of the router. It's still well within the capabilities of the cable but it really is flat out for the system design. It's close to 2A up and down the cable (so the cable is carrying 4A total, still fine so far as I can see). Maybe that's the way StarLink designed it and maybe I didn't manage to switch preheat on properly (or maybe StarLink had it disabled in SW Oregon?)

Another question would be whether the cable problem might be not the cable wiring but the connectors. Note that I'm referring to a standard 50-foot cable connected to a Gen 2 dish.

I think it is the connectors but I don't see how anything the router delivers continuously is going to cause a problem.

Then you don't want me to connect the dish cable into the router when it's connected to the power supply, which I take to mean plugged into the wall.

Yes, because of the way the dish power supply inside the router seems to work. I believe it's a fairly basic passive PoE design (I haven't located a circuit diagram for the router so I can't be sure.) It is a passive design (or the hacks on this gist would not work) and I believe it directly converts the AC power at 60Hz/110V or 50Hz/220V to the 48V. This means that it has to retain sufficient energy between the two points where the AC hits 48V; it has to keep on delivering 48V even though the input voltage is less than 48V.

When you connect the dish to the router with the router already turned on my hypothesis is that this energy floods down the cable to charge the various power supplies inside the dish. This is an "inrush" current and it can be very large. Poorly designed (IMO) 19.2V laptop power supplies had a nasty effect of causing an arc - lightning, accompanied by a bang, thunder - when plugged into a power outlet, this happened for the same reason.

So my further hypothesis is that it's simply a bad idea to plug the dish into a powered on router because that inrush can cause an arc in the connector and, given the connector, easily damage it.

Guess what I did when I was first playing around with my new dish? I had it outside on the lawn and, using the 'phone app, I was testing locations. Because I didn't want to have to go back into the house to plug the router into the outlet I disconnected and reconnected the dish cable connection at the dish. As I reported above the connector between the cable and the dish is now fried; both sides. StarLink sent me a new cable but not a new dish... There's still a significant extra resistance in the connector within the dish mast. I've given up on StarLink but if I hadn't I would have got round to pulling out the dish connector (it's not impossible) and soldering my own CAT5e cable to the wires.

That's just my story of course, but I don't believe any of the reports which imply that the router can deliver way, way, more than 90W. (Of course I have a couple of routers now that I can destruction test, maybe I will one day...)

### jbowler commented Jul 26, 2023

Is there enough resistance in four 24AWG 50-foot wire pairs to care about in the context we're discussing?

No.

The standard StarLink cable is 75ft, there are 8 24AWG wires in there, but they are twisted together so they are very slightly longer than 75ft. Not enough to matter I believe. They are also stranded in the StarLink cable; they are each 7 (or 11, I should count them :-) much thinner (31AWG?) wires but the "24AWG" should take all that into account. I normally find "engineeringtoolbox" to be a good resource:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

So each wire is around 0.2mm² in diameter and 8 of them are 1.6mm² This is a "cable assembly" so the whole thing has to be considered as a unit. It is equivalent to a 15AWG wire (a single wire). See this table:

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

The "maximum amps for power distribution" column is based on power loss; the resistance causing excessive loss of power. The value is 4.7A, so the CAT5E is approaching reasonable limits for power loss (and this is, of course, the point of this gist). The "maximum amps for chassis wiring" is the figure for temperature rise. The figure is 28A; this is the point at which the wire (cable in this case) starts to overheat. 28A is in'n'out; the router would be supplying 14A. That's 672W; well within the capability of a 15A US 110V power supply (1650W) but well beyond what the white tombstone can deliver.

For voltage drop it makes more sense to go back to the resistance of 24AWG wires because the fact that they are grouped together doesn't matter and it's just too easy to make mistakes through unnecessary complication. The standard StarLink cable is 75ft long, the longest they actually sell is 150ft long. The powerstream site gives 25.67Ω per 1000ft for 24AWG; that's actually solid and I don't know which number gets priority to determine AWG, resistance would make sense but I don't know. Using that number there are four conductors in and four out for a resistance of 6.4Ω per foot over twice the distance (there and back) times 150ft, 1.93Ω, pretty much 2Ω. I believe my measurements of the resistance of an actual cable were less than that so that seems a possible upper limit.

So that's a 4V loss for 150ft at the max of the StarLink router (2A). Hence the idea to go to a 52V supply for longer, e.g. 300ft; the standard maximum of the ethernet signal. 300ft at 24AWG (the other recommendation is to go to 23AWG CAT6) drops 8V which, IRC, is the lower limit of the PoE standards and StarLink isn't standard in this regard. For the standard cable the drop is 2V; irrelevant.

These figures are consistent with a reasonable assumption that the StarLink engineers checked what they were doing. I can criticize what they did in other ways, but not this one.

### crdiaz324 commented Jul 30, 2023

Have you guys seen this? Here is a kit that plugs right in, avoiding the need to cut or invert your wires. https://techcharmer.com/products/custom-poe-injector

### torrmundi commented Jul 30, 2023 via email

The YAOSHENG adapter avoids the need to cut the cable; https://www.amazon.com/YAOSHENG-Rectangular-Adapter-Connect-Injector The YAOSHENG PoE injector is rated at 3A, the TechCharmer PoE looks like a Tycon custom build in which case it would be 2.25A. The StarLink ethernet adapter (\$25) can be hacked to make an adapter for the end of the cable as well. Cutting the hole removes the need for the dubious SpaceX connectors. I suspect the white plug is a standard PCB connector like one of the JST connectors.

The standard StarLink cable is 75ft, there are 8 24AWG wires in there, but they are twisted together so they are very slightly longer than 75ft.

Sorry, the standard Starlink cable is 50 feet. It's in their specs, and I confirmed it by measuring the old one that I pulled out.

Starlink doesn't say whether it's Cat 5e or Cat 6a. I've seen it described both ways, but as I write I'm inclined to say Cat 5e. That would be 24 AWG. Ampacity for 24 AWG is 3.5.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html

Now for the fun stuff. When my router is plugged in without the cable plugged in, it registers 0.07A at the indoor outlet. When the cable is plugged in, it registers 0.37A. Both numbers vary a bit but not much; the dish is drawing about 0.3A minus whatever resistance is in 50 feet of 24AWG and two connectors. That 0.3A is measured at the outlet, but there's a step-down transformer in the router that converts 120 volts to 48 volts. This turns 0.3A into 0.75A. Doesn't change the wattage: still 36 watts

My next door neighbor, also a Starlink user whose cable crapped out, measured 5A at the wall outlet last winter with Snow Melt running. Subtracting the 0.07A that the router uses, you get 4.93A delivered to the 48 volt power supply. Voltage stepped down, amperage stepped up to 12.5 over wiring rated for 3.5A . Either way, about 600 watts. (Okay, 591.6 minus a smidgen of power loss in the transformer.) It's becoming clear to me just why so many Starlink cables are failing. Would you use Cat 5e (or Cat 6a) to run power to a space heater?

Now that Starlink is fully commercial, it's becoming popular in rural areas. In places like mine, where it's cold enough to trigger the Snow Melt thermostat off and on for maybe half the year if left on the default "automatic" setting, I think this wiring is getting damaged a little bit each time until it finally gives out. I also note that the Starlink router label shows that it's a 2A device, yet my neighbor observed that it was drawing 5A when Snow Melt was running. I wonder if Snow Melt is frying both the routers and the cables.

My big remaining question is: How long does Snow Melt go on when it goes on? My guess is "not for long enough to fry the cables right away." This is why, when I click around and see reports of bad cables, the story is almost always that it worked for X months then suddenly stopped. In any case I will check that this coming December. When there's a storm, I'll sit next to the meter, turn on Snow Melt and watch what happens, and for how long. I see that Starlink says the dish will melt 1.5" of snow per hour. Sorry, that tells me nothing. At what angle? And what triggers its activation?

I am not an electrician. Didn't take Electrician 101 at the community college. I've had to do a bunch of research to figure this out, but the closer I look the more I think this explains a widespread Starlink problem. Finally, we might ask how something this basic and frankly stupid could happen (if I'm correct, that is.) The answer would be rocket science. Musk & Co. put all their brain cells into the rockets, the satellites, and the dishes, and wound up "assuming" the routers and cables. Kind of like when the space shuttle geniuses assumed those O-rings. Smart people are no less inclined to be oblivious than anyone else.

FINALLY ... if anyone can tell me how I'm wrong about this, I am much, MUCH more receptive to correction than it might seem.

### bghira commented Jul 30, 2023

Sorry, the standard Starlink cable is 50 feet. It's in their specs, and I confirmed it by measuring the old one that I pulled out.

used to be 75. but it's honestly too much distance. i was always cutting and shortening.

I can't find passive poe injectors with 4 pairs. Is it possible to use 2 of these making 2 custom Y cable to use only the 2 powered pairs of each injector?

https://www.alfa.com.tw/products/apoe03g?variant=39871024889928

### jbowler commented Aug 11, 2023

Is it possible to use 2 of these making 2 custom Y cable to use only the 2 powered pairs of each injector?

Yes but you have to know exactly what you are doing and it's pointless since the Tycon, as documented above, works just fine so long as correct wire pairs are swapped. If you don't want to do that the one I posted links to on Amazon doesn't require the wire swap. Seriously though, the cable has to be cut with any of these solutions (except the two most recently posted) so attach the RJ45 modular plus and it really is no more difficult to crimp those on with the correct wire swap than it is to crimp them on without a wire swap. (Both are error prone of course.)

A single APOE03G costs the same as a single Tycon PoE (USD15 from Amazon, USD10+postage direct from Tycon).

### TyraelTLK commented Aug 12, 2023

From Germany I see the Tycoon no more available from your link. From another it's 30€ but long time delivery, I ordered 2 days ago and it should arrive 24th but it hasn't been shipped yet (but it's too late for me in anycase). The APOE03G is 9.85 + 5€, total 25€ and should be here in 2-3 days.
Thank you!
Let's see if I'll be able to put together something that'll work ;)

### sjkjs commented Aug 12, 2023

The Reolink power supply is out of stock and I can't find an equivalent replacement where I live. DC power supplies don't seem to advertise whether or not the DC negative is connected to ground, it seems to be luck of the draw.

How can I make sure that the CAT5e shield is correctly grounded when using a POE-INJ-1000-WT PoE injector? It only has + and - inputs. There's no terminal for ground. Is it safe to take any random 48-52V power brick and ground its DC negative output?

### jbowler commented Aug 12, 2023

How can I make sure that the CAT5e shield is correctly grounded when using a POE-INJ-1000-WT PoE injector?

It's well documented in the Tycon specification; the PoE does a pass through on the shield. You need to use a PSU which is floating but general purpose PSUs should do that; the only one I've found that did actually ground the output was a LinkSys PSU designed for a particular piece of equipment. Test it first.

### sjkjs commented Aug 12, 2023

It's well documented in the Tycon specification; the PoE does a pass through on the shield. You need to use a PSU which is floating but general purpose PSUs should do that; the only one I've found that did actually ground the output was a LinkSys PSU designed for a particular piece of equipment. Test it first.

The shield is meant to be grounded isn't it? I will be connecting the dish (via the PoE injector) to a network switch which is powered off a DC barrel jack and has a floating ground. So, if I used the Tycon injector and used its shield pass through, the shield would still be ungrounded at all 4 plugs (2 on the dish side, 2 on the switch side).

In this situation don't I need to explicitly provide it with a ground, or accept the risk of being ungrounded?

### jbowler commented Aug 12, 2023

In this situation don't I need to explicitly provide it with a ground, or accept the risk of being ungrounded?

Yes, the shield should be grounded somewhere. You have to make an explicit decision where to ground it unless the PoE injector does it. (The PoE injector for my other PoE aerial, from my original ISP, does ground the shield.) Normally nothing else in the cable run (including surge suppressors) will ground the shield.

In my StarLink arrangement I had the dish plugged in to a surge suppressor then from there to the Tycon WT then all the way to my router; this was in a box outside the house. I ran the drain wire out of one of the RJ45 plugs and just connected that to the same ground as the surge suppressor.

In the arrangement with my prior ISP I put a surge suppressor on the outside of the house, in a box, and had waterproof RJ45 sockets on that. IRC I had a shield pass-through to the PoE but I could have grounded the shield of the incoming RJ45 inside the box and arranged not to connect it on the outgoing connection to the PoE, or broken the connection to the PoE by using an unshielded cable in the last step (wall jack inside the house to PoE.)

NetGear PoE switches do ground the shield; for the ones with the wall-wart and the low voltage DC supplies there is a grounding screw on the case, for ones with built in AC power the shield is connected to the AC ground.

The rule, if there is one, seems to be to ground at the power supply; the PoE injector. All the switches I have provide shielded RJ45 sockets and all those shields are connected together. On one (a new TrendNET 10G switch) the shield is also connected to the power supply socket (12V 1A barrel connector). On another NetGear switch (non-PoE) the shield is isolated from the barrel connector. Since you are using a a switch I would expect every shielded cable plugged into it to be connected together so if any get grounded they all will be.

### sjkjs commented Aug 13, 2023

I ran the drain wire out of one of the RJ45 plugs and just connected that to the same ground as the surge suppressor.

Thanks for the explanation. That all makes sense.

I'm using a Netgear GC110P PoE switch which doesn't have the shield grounded and also doesn't provide a grounding screw. The shield seems to be disconnected from everything.

I like your idea of using one of the spare RJ45 ports and running a drain wire to somewhere else that does have a ground. I might look at doing that too.

### darconeous commented Oct 5, 2023

For what it's worth, I grounded my 200' setup at two places:

1. Using a Cat-6 surge protector close to the antenna, ~120ft away from the house. This grounds the shielding and provides an arc path to ground for the twisted pairs.
2. Grounding the shielding at the service entrance for the house, no surge.

The ground at the antenna is it's own ground spike. The ground at the house is the shared house ground (luckily I could run a wire to that on the exterior of the house). Unclear if I'm going to ultimately have galvanic problems. Hopefully not. Resistance between the two independent ground spikes is fairly low.

Originally both ground points were going to be full CAT-6 surge protectors, but I was having trouble with them increasing the resistance slightly so at some point I decided to just ground the shielding at the service entrance. That was before I switched to 52V, so perhaps I should revisit that... I'm hesitant to cut the wire though, since I can't un-cut it if it doesn't work out.

### jbowler commented Oct 6, 2023

Resistance between the two independent ground spikes is fairly low.

I'm very interested in knowing what that resistance is :-)

### darconeous commented Oct 6, 2023

I'm very interested in knowing what that resistance is :-)

If I remember correctly, it was a few ohms. I don't remember what it was exactly, I just remember thinking "wow, that's lower than I expected". I have an outlet nearby with a ground that is connected to the house ground (not the ground that the antenna is connected to) so one day I got curious and pulled out the multimeter. But a low resistance makes sense, we have a lot of minerals in our clay-type soil that also has considerable moisture content. And I really buried that rod quite well.

I'm curious now, we just had a lot of rain. I can check again tomorrow.

### crdiaz324 commented Oct 20, 2023

Is it possible to use 2 of these making 2 custom Y cable to use only the 2 powered pairs of each injector?

Yes but you have to know exactly what you are doing and it's pointless since the Tycon, as documented above, works just fine so long as correct wire pairs are swapped. If you don't want to do that the one I posted links to on Amazon doesn't require the wire swap. Seriously though, the cable has to be cut with any of these solutions (except the two most recently posted) so attach the RJ45 modular plus and it really is no more difficult to crimp those on with the correct wire swap than it is to crimp them on without a wire swap. (Both are error prone of course.)

A single APOE03G costs the same as a single Tycon PoE (USD15 from Amazon, USD10+postage direct from Tycon).

I've successfully used the techcharmer.com kit with my modified dishy without having to cut or swap any wires. The process involved connecting the provided cable from the kit to the plug in the back of the dishy, and subsequently to the POE's power output. Then I connected the POE to my router utilizing a standard ethernet cable I acquired from Amazon. This setup has proven to be incredibly reliable, running seamlessly for approximately 4 to 5 months. The kit was roughly \$30. Hard to beat that IMO.

### JustOneGuyHere commented Oct 20, 2023 via email

@JustOneGuyHere; @crdiaz324 was commenting on his previous post from July:

It's worth noting that TechCharmer now sell that Tycon lookalike PSU with what appears to be YAOSHENG adapter I posted a link to (two posts down from the above). Here: https://techcharmer.com/collections/our-products/products/starlink-dc-adapter-kit The Amazon link I posted no longer works but it's here:

It's a nice move by TechCharmer; they've undercut the YAOSHENG very expensive PSU (\$81) with an adequate and well proven power supply (assuming it is one of the Tycons), but they certainly seem to be selling the YAOSHENG adapter as part of it. Everyone benefits. The only downside to the TechCharmer solution is that there is no surge protection that I can see, but there is none on the official StarLink router (aka incredibly expensive PSU) so far as I know.

### WIMMPYIII commented Dec 14, 2023

Has anyone tried the new gen3 kickstand dishy.
Wondering if power layout is the same and if we are good to use the same POE PCBs that we use on the gen2?
i know the power requirement is higher and closer to gen1 / beta unit power demand.

### jbowler commented Dec 14, 2023

The cable seems to be an RJ45 and there is a separate PSU (which powers the router which in turn powers the antenna):

Here is the StarLink "specification sheet":

So that's apparently RJ45 all the way which means StarLink are likely to either be using modern standards or the Gen1 design. The new router offers Gen1 compatibility but still uses the Gen1 PSU, so the Gen3 dish is most likely using the bt standard. Minimally the RJ45 connection to the dish has to be protected; think what happens if (when) someone plugs their device RJ45 into the StarLink port or plugs the Gen3 dish into a regular PoE.

The dish goes up in stated wattage, "75-100W" from the spec sheet, despite losing the motors. Losing the motors may well help with the connector arcing problem and, anyway, RJ45s are much easier to replace :-)

There's a picture of the power brick here:

and, zooming in, it's only faceplated at 60W (30V DC 2A) and it is a UL listed LPS, so unless Elon has built in one of those perpetual motion devices that's the maximum the dish can take on average. I'm guessing that the "spec sheet" is hooey and that the "100W" just corresponds to a peak current for a fraction of a second (as in the Gen2 measurements). The pictures on that page also show the router face plate and it lists "Input 1: 30V 1A", so I'm guessing that is just the router box, not the pass through to the dish.

One really weird thing is the compatibility of the router with the Gen2 dish; scroll down the last link above and you will see a picture of the setup. The new router is connected to what looks like the standard Gen2 ethernet dongle, read the text and you will see it is the configuration we all know and hate; the Gen2 (dish) router becomes a separate power brick for the Gen2 dish. Just goes to show what a dogs breakfast the Gen2 dish cabling is.

Even though the Gen3 dish is using what appears to be an RJ45 connector (it has an extra rubber boot) that doesn't mean that it is using a standard PoE solution; I'm just suggesting that given the widespread available of very efficient electronics (FETs instead of diodes for protection etc) it only really makes sense to use one of the standards. The standard implementations can deliver way more power than the power brick.

If the dish has "diode" style protection then it might still work with the swapped connectors so long as it is fine with 48V (not the 30V from the PSU) and so long as it doesn't do active negotiation. That said I wouldn't try it; connecting a passive PoE to an arbitrary device not explicitly documented as requiring the given voltage and wiring strikes me as dangerous.

It may be that the Gen3 dish can be connected safely to an active PoE; it may not work but the active PoEs are designed not to deliver more than a few volts unless the connected device does the right resistor dance. Still, absolutely no guarantees; given the wacky Gen2 dish wiring I regard any such non-approved connection as an experiment.

### WIMMPYIII commented Dec 15, 2023

I find it very odd that the power is said to be higher but the power supply is 30v 2a 60w vs 48v 2a 96w. gen1 brick is even a little higher at 56v.
I am disappointed that they dropped voltage to 30v. this is a really ugly in-between number and not as capable extending distance as 48-56v hardware. It could be alot more finicky adjusting for voltage and amp drop.
30v would not be a bt or any typical POE standard.
We need a brave soul with a gen3 to plug in a cable with isolated exposed pairs to do some pick testing while the dish is running. figure out what pairs are doing what and at what voltage.

### WIMMPYIII commented Dec 15, 2023

I want to see a brick and cable combo that will carry a signal and voltage a long distance. I develop condo highrise projects. I see the need to put antennas on the roof and drop cable down 20 floors to individual units.. gen 2 will not work without major cable mods..  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, December 15, 2023, 1:09 AM, WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: Re: @. commented on this gist. I find it very odd that the power is said to be higher but the power supply is 30v 2a 60w vs 48v 2a 96w. gen1 brick is even a little higher at 56v. I am disappointed that they dropped voltage to 30v. this is a really ugly in-between number and not as capable extending distance as 48-56v hardware. It could be alot more finicky adjusting for voltage and amp drop. 30v would not be a bt or any typical POE standard. We need a brave soul with a gen3 to plug in a cable with isolated exposed pairs to do some pick testing while the dish is running. figure out what pairs are doing what and at what voltage. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub or unsubscribe. You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS or Android.

On a building you could put an enclosure location with ac for the power brick and then 200ft or so down from the brick for a total of 330ft or less. This is a hard issue for a tower or tree installation though.

I find it very odd that the power is said to be higher but the power supply is 30v 2a 60w vs 48v 2a 96w. gen1 brick is even a little higher at 56v.

As you say for PoE standards compliance the minimum voltage at the power injector is 50V, going up to 52V for 802.3bt "type 4" (the 100W variant). All I could find was the data for the power brick and the input of the the latest router (Gen 4?). The maximum voltage in the standards is still 57V, so if the new (Gen 3) dish is PoE 802.3 compliant there is a voltage doubler in the router; these are cheap to implement and very efficient in some of the charge pump implementations.

The PSU brick I found a picture of is apparently not the version distributed in the package with the Gen3 dish. The picture shows a two prong NA-only wall-wart (the prongs can't be changed) but the StarLink and other pages all show an AC cable in the full package and an IEC-320-C7 ("figure-8") socket on the PSU. The wall-wart is more than adequate for the new stand-alone router when used with Gen 1 and Gen2 because they both had separate power adapters for the dish itself.

It's even possible that the "real" PSU has multiple outlets and different voltages, but then I would expect the router to list multiple inputs.

We need a brave soul with a gen3 to plug in a cable with isolated exposed pairs to do some pick testing while the dish is running. figure out what pairs are doing what and at what voltage.

The Gen3 dishes still seem to be "invitation only", but the corresponding router is meant to be available for \$199 on its own (possibly with a different PSU). Testing the router should not be a big problem, for one thing there won't be any voltage on an RJ45 breakout plugged in to the dish port after a fraction of a second if it's an 802.3 PoE.