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Hacking the Rectangular Starlink Dishy Cable
@francc01
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francc01 commented Oct 26, 2022

Hello All.
I want to do a similar thing.
To remove the starlink router, as i find it to limited in terms of configuration.
Besides that, i want to be able to connect most equipment via cable.

One issue, i am unable to order the provided PoE injector, as amazon does not list it anymore for sale.
Would the following one be a good option?
(ps i can only order from Amazon spain due to my location).

its 90W output, and has a power supply integrated.
A bit more€€€ but thats ok.

The idea is to put dishy V2 more or less 150 to 200 meters from my main house on a high support.
The PoE injector will only be used for powering Dishy V2. No other devices.

I have for that a uws-litle-16-PoE switch and a edgerouterx.
I am aware of the switching of the pairs to match up as well dishy and as well the PoE injector.

Trying to avoid bricking first connection of dishy ;) would be a shame after waiting so long...
Thank you

EDIT: I have at the moment the following injector:
48V 0.5A 24W PoE adapter from tp-link (TL-POE4824G). Its a passive 1 GB injector
If i can use this one, then it should be ok and i do not need to buy the more expensive mentioned.

@WIMMPYIII
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Hello All. I want to do a similar thing. To remove the starlink router, as i find it to limited in terms of configuration. Besides that, i want to be able to connect most equipment via cable.

One issue, i am unable to order the provided PoE injector, as amazon does not list it anymore for sale. Would the following one be a good option? (ps i can only order from Amazon spain due to my location).

its 90W output, and has a power supply integrated. A bit more€€€ but thats ok.

The idea is to put dishy V2 more or less 150 to 200 meters from my main house on a high support. The PoE injector will only be used for powering Dishy V2. No other devices.

I have for that a uws-litle-16-PoE switch and a edgerouterx. I am aware of the switching of the pairs to match up as well dishy and as well the PoE injector.

Trying to avoid bricking first connection of dishy ;) would be a shame after waiting so long... Thank you

EDIT: I have at the moment the following injector: 48V 0.5A 24W PoE adapter from tp-link (TL-POE4824G). Its a passive 1 GB injector If i can use this one, then it should be ok and i do not need to buy the more expensive mentioned.

There has to be less then 100 meters between each switch. So to get 200 meters you need an inline switch in the middle of your run.
This run will just be for getting data to your dishy. ( this can be done for several 100m jumps)
https://www.amazon.com/Cudy-POE15-Waterproof-1000Mbps%EF%BC%8C1-Wall-Mount/dp/B085S1R5NX/ref=sr_1_38?crid=2NZHHBO1DZL4U&keywords=PoE+Extender+outdoor+gigabit&qid=1666769394&sprefix=poe+extender+outdoor+gigabi%2Caps%2C195&sr=8-38&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840#customerReviews

You need to run power on a 2nd run of wire. ( I don't think cat6 wire is going to be good on more than 100 meters)
snip the end and tie in half the pairs to negative and half to positive on a power pack. (For 200m i think you would need proper DC awg 12 wire) and possibly a higher voltage then this listed below like 56v you would want to use a voltage calculator and also voltomenter the end before attempting to power it.
(If you can get AC power at the dishy end you could run the stock router in bypass mode in an enclosure and just do the above for data to a router into the house)
https://www.amazon.com/Reolink-Adapter-Compatible-RLN16-410-RLN8-410/dp/B07WL7R26Z

You will need this at the dishy side
Option 1 (needs pins set properly) https://www.ispsupplies.com/McCown-Technology-Corporation-800-GIGE-POE
Option 2 (needs an enclosure) https://dishypowa.com/

@ptwohig
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ptwohig commented Dec 2, 2022

Which of the wires on the Dishy actually supply power to the dish, and which are data?

I tried this injector and I think I cooked my Dishy - https://bit.ly/3H5ImH9

  1. Data
  2. Data
  3. Data
  4. 48V+
  5. 48V+
  6. Data
  7. GND
  8. GND

Is that correct? Or do need to order a replacement dish?

@jesuschris
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Did you swap the Green/Blue in and out of the PoE? See this diagram. https://postlmg.cc/NKnyQNcy

If not you may need a new one.

Also I've just become aware of this cool piece of kit out of NZ... https://canhaz.dishypowa.com. Maybe this is an easier solution for all you DIY'rs not wanting to risk your dishy. :)

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Dec 2, 2022

Did you swap the Green/Blue in and out of the PoE? See this diagram. https://postlmg.cc/NKnyQNcy

If not you may need a new one.

Also I've just become aware of this cool piece of kit out of NZ... https://canhaz.dishypowa.com. Maybe this is an easier solution for all you DIY'rs not wanting to risk your dishy. :)

Yes dishypowa works great but so does the McCown 800-GIGE-POE. The McCown is cheaper considering you have to by a 4x4 sealed box for dishypowa. Dishypowa could be more compact for a mobile option also they are making a new revision that can run off a wide range of voltage and output the correct voltage to the dishy. That makes it ideal for vehicles and such and may open up cheaper options of power bricks.

@WIMMPYIII
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Which of the wires on the Dishy actually supply power to the dish, and which are data?

I tried this injector and I think I cooked my Dishy - https://bit.ly/3H5ImH9

  1. Data
  2. Data
  3. Data
  4. 48V+
  5. 48V+
  6. Data
  7. GND
  8. GND

Is that correct? Or do need to order a replacement dish?

How far are you trying to go after the power injector and how far and what wire are you running to the injector? What power brick are you using?

@torrmundi
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Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell me my mistake?

@WIMMPYIII
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Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell me my mistake?

That sounds to be right wire config. How far did you try to go with only 48v?

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 3, 2022 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Dec 4, 2022

It's about 35 ft from PoE to dish.

On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:53 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: @.* commented on this gist. ------------------------------ Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell me my mistake? That sounds to be right wire config. How far did you try to go with only 48v? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390584 or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMGEKLVL4QLSCZDV7ELWLOXNTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub .

How far from the 48v power brick plugged into 110AC to the POE injection point?

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 4, 2022 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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It's a 12V battery bank, fed about 8ft from the breaker panel to the 12-48 converter on 10 awg. Then 48V fed 27ft to the PoE on 14 awg.

On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:07 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: @.* commented on this gist. ------------------------------ It's about 35 ft from PoE to dish. … <#m_8102826963808532048_> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:53 PM WIMMPYIII @.*> wrote: @.** commented on this gist. ------------------------------ Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell me my mistake? That sounds to be right wire config. How far did you try to go with only 48v? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390584 or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMGEKLVL4QLSCZDV7ELWLOXNTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub . How far from the power brick plugged into 110 to the POE injection point? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390754 or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFGPAZBIGAJSRSKI23WLP4GTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub .

That sounds perfectly fine to me. Maybe something was wrong with the 48v converter did you try a voltmeter on it? What amps did the 48v converter put out?
Maybe someone else has some ideas as to what may have happened?

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 4, 2022 via email

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 4, 2022 via email

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 4, 2022 via email

@bghira
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bghira commented Dec 5, 2022

you killed the router

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Dec 5, 2022

I measured the DC voltages on all the wire pairs after connecting back to the SL router. Every one is zero! Does the SL router have a 'dormant' mode that power off the dishy? Or does this indicate a dead SL router??

On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 10:42 PM John Morfit @.> wrote: BTW, thank you for responding! As you might guess, I'm an unhappy camper right now, so it is great to have someone that I can speak with about it. On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 10:31 PM John Morfit @.> wrote: > I only checked voltage, before connecting SL - after connecting, as soon > as I saw smoke, I disconnected. If I venture to try again, I'll measure > current. I assume that since I've not found anything needing change, the > condition will continue (more smoke). > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:42 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: > >> @.* commented on this gist. >> ------------------------------ >> >> It's a 12V battery bank, fed about 8ft from the breaker panel to the >> 12-48 converter on 10 awg. Then 48V fed 27ft to the PoE on 14 awg. >> … >> <#m_-1420044019847022546_m_1579301424341436564_m_-4331165555688670339_> >> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:07 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: @.** commented on >> this gist. ------------------------------ It's about 35 ft from PoE to >> dish. … <#m_8102826963808532048_> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:53 PM WIMMPYIII >> @.> wrote: @.** commented on this gist. >> ------------------------------ Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up >> my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE >> smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my >> phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I >> think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins >> 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V >> ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell >> me my mistake? That sounds to be right wire config. How far did you try to >> go with only 48v? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390584 >> or unsubscribe >> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMGEKLVL4QLSCZDV7ELWLOXNTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >> . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage >> notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >> or Android >> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >> . How far from the power brick plugged into 110 to the POE injection point? >> — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390754 >> or unsubscribe >> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFGPAZBIGAJSRSKI23WLP4GTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >> . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage >> notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >> or Android >> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >> . >> >> That sounds perfectly fine to me. Maybe something was wrong with the 48v >> converter did you try a voltmeter on it? What amps did the 48v converter >> put out? >> Maybe someone else has some ideas as to what may have happened? >> >> — >> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390776 >> or unsubscribe >> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFBX22SHX5ILIMV65LWLQAIPBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >> . >> You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. >> >> Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >> or Android >> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >> . >> >> >

Well if it is just the router fried and not the dishy, the router is half useless anyway and not need for functionality, if power injection is done properly. I would get the components that i listed above McCown 800-gige-poe or dishypowa and a ReoLink 52v power brick. Run to a basic linksys or whatever you got router on the data side of the McCown.
Can you give us a very in depth view of what you where trying to accomplish and why you where trying to run this of a battery rather then power brick. Not that it cant be just wondering why you went this route. I am not sure what dishypowas status is on there next gen unit that can run off a large battery voltage range but that might be the route you need if you have to have battery power.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 5, 2022 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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I don't believe that is correct. I borrowed another router and it behaves identically. Both routers allow login via WiFi, both report that the dish is not powered up, or is rebooting. Why do you say the router is dead?

On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:36 AM Bagheera @.> wrote: @.* commented on this gist. ------------------------------ you killed the router — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4391733 or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFTD3C4A2BL7ZIH4SDWLV5M7BFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub .

Not sure at all that is the case that was just bghira thought.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 5, 2022 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Dec 5, 2022

I found today, that my router and the borrowed router have pos voltage on pins 1,2,3,6. I may have not connected properly in my prior test.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2022, 8:14 AM John Morfit @.> wrote: I measured the DC voltages on all the wire pairs after connecting back to the SL router. Every one is zero! Does the SL router have a 'dormant' mode that power off the dishy? Or does this indicate a dead SL router?? On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 10:42 PM John Morfit @.> wrote: > BTW, thank you for responding! As you might guess, I'm an unhappy camper > right now, so it is great to have someone that I can speak with about it. > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 10:31 PM John Morfit @.> wrote: > >> I only checked voltage, before connecting SL - after connecting, as soon >> as I saw smoke, I disconnected. If I venture to try again, I'll measure >> current. I assume that since I've not found anything needing change, the >> condition will continue (more smoke). >> >> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:42 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: >> >>> @.**** commented on this gist. >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> It's a 12V battery bank, fed about 8ft from the breaker panel to the >>> 12-48 converter on 10 awg. Then 48V fed 27ft to the PoE on 14 awg. >>> … >>> <#m_8097072046401898973_m_7125348294402308776_m_-1420044019847022546_m_1579301424341436564_m_-4331165555688670339_> >>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:07 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: @.** commented on >>> this gist. ------------------------------ It's about 35 ft from PoE to >>> dish. … <#m_8102826963808532048_> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:53 PM WIMMPYIII >>> @.> wrote: @.** commented on this gist. >>> ------------------------------ Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up >>> my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE >>> smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my >>> phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I >>> think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins >>> 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V >>> ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell >>> me my mistake? That sounds to be right wire config. How far did you try to >>> go with only 48v? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >>> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390584 >>> or unsubscribe >>> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMGEKLVL4QLSCZDV7ELWLOXNTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >>> . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage >>> notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >>> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >>> or Android >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >>> . How far from the power brick plugged into 110 to the POE injection point? >>> — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >>> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390754 >>> or unsubscribe >>> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFGPAZBIGAJSRSKI23WLP4GTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >>> . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage >>> notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >>> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >>> or Android >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >>> . >>> >>> That sounds perfectly fine to me. Maybe something was wrong with the >>> 48v converter did you try a voltmeter on it? What amps did the 48v >>> converter put out? >>> Maybe someone else has some ideas as to what may have happened? >>> >>> — >>> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >>> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390776 >>> or unsubscribe >>> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFBX22SHX5ILIMV65LWLQAIPBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >>> . >>> You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. >>> >>> Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >>> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >>> or Android >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >>> . >>> >>> >>

Ya that why we have been going the route of the McCown and dishypowa. It is less wire crossing and areas for things to get mixed up then trying to mod a POE that is wired with power on the wrong pins. When we do these every day it is just asking for trouble.

@WIMMPYIII
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I found today, that my router and the borrowed router have pos voltage on pins 1,2,3,6. I may have not connected properly in my prior test.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2022, 8:14 AM John Morfit @.> wrote: I measured the DC voltages on all the wire pairs after connecting back to the SL router. Every one is zero! Does the SL router have a 'dormant' mode that power off the dishy? Or does this indicate a dead SL router?? On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 10:42 PM John Morfit @.> wrote: > BTW, thank you for responding! As you might guess, I'm an unhappy camper > right now, so it is great to have someone that I can speak with about it. > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 10:31 PM John Morfit @.> wrote: > >> I only checked voltage, before connecting SL - after connecting, as soon >> as I saw smoke, I disconnected. If I venture to try again, I'll measure >> current. I assume that since I've not found anything needing change, the >> condition will continue (more smoke). >> >> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:42 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: >> >>> @.**** commented on this gist. >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> It's a 12V battery bank, fed about 8ft from the breaker panel to the >>> 12-48 converter on 10 awg. Then 48V fed 27ft to the PoE on 14 awg. >>> … >>> <#m_8097072046401898973_m_7125348294402308776_m_-1420044019847022546_m_1579301424341436564_m_-4331165555688670339_> >>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 9:07 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: @.** commented on >>> this gist. ------------------------------ It's about 35 ft from PoE to >>> dish. … <#m_8102826963808532048_> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 3:53 PM WIMMPYIII >>> @.> wrote: @.** commented on this gist. >>> ------------------------------ Oops, I think I broke my Dishy. I powered up >>> my hack 48V system and plugged Dishy in for the first time. The Tycon PoE >>> smoked. Then I coupled Dishy back to my SL router and logged in with my >>> phone. The app says "Offline" and "Starlink disconnected". That's why I >>> think the Dishy is toasted. Regarding my wiring, I have pos 48Vdc on pins >>> 1,2,3,6 (orange/white, orange, green/white, green) and negative (48V >>> ground) on 4,5,7,8 (blue, blue/white, brown/white, brown). Can anyone tell >>> me my mistake? That sounds to be right wire config. How far did you try to >>> go with only 48v? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >>> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390584 >>> or unsubscribe >>> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMGEKLVL4QLSCZDV7ELWLOXNTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >>> . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage >>> notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >>> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >>> or Android >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >>> . How far from the power brick plugged into 110 to the POE injection point? >>> — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >>> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390754 >>> or unsubscribe >>> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFGPAZBIGAJSRSKI23WLP4GTBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >>> . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage >>> notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >>> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >>> or Android >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >>> . >>> >>> That sounds perfectly fine to me. Maybe something was wrong with the >>> 48v converter did you try a voltmeter on it? What amps did the 48v >>> converter put out? >>> Maybe someone else has some ideas as to what may have happened? >>> >>> — >>> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >>> https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4390776 >>> or unsubscribe >>> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMFBX22SHX5ILIMV65LWLQAIPBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF >>> . >>> You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. >>> >>> Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS >>> https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 >>> or Android >>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub >>> . >>> >>> >>

I think you are stuck trying to RMA or ebay shopping for one.

@WIMMPYIII
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I would love you to RMA without any explanation and see what you get back. and how soon. please let us know if you do.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 6, 2022 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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Images did not come through on gethub for some reason. but your explanation makes sence. It makes me a little nervous to try the tycon but the McCown is not stocked well atm and dishypowa is only batch runs.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 7, 2022 via email

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 7, 2022 via email

@torrmundi
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What do you think about NOT having a grounded cable & RJ45 connector from the Dishy? That is my case. All currents must be carried on the wire pairs.

@bghira
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bghira commented Dec 7, 2022

the FCC requires shielding continuity and the CAT5e+ specs require it to avoid ground loop interference

@WIMMPYIII
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What do you think about NOT having a grounded cable & RJ45 connector from the Dishy? That is my case. All currents must be carried on the wire pairs.

You should ground and use a proper grounded Rj45 connector on the dishy side and data to router avoid grounding. So that it is not being grounded in 2 places.

@torrmundi
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Agreed; I should have shielded cable outside, terminating the ground at the lightning surge protection device. Further cabling may be shielded, but should not be allowed to terminate to ground again.

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Dec 7, 2022 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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Agreed; I should have shielded cable outside, terminating the ground at the lightning surge protection device. Further cabling may be shielded, but should not be allowed to terminate to ground again.

Any new updates on your situation? Do you have a new dishy on the way?

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Dec 16, 2022 via email

@OleksandrSimakov
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OleksandrSimakov commented Jan 14, 2023

Can I use the setup on the diagram, but with the original Starlink router? The aim in my case is just to extend the cable. I am asking because I thought that there is already one POE (48V) in original Starlink router and what would happen if I bring the Tycon one (52V powered) right after it. Would that work?

C725C2A2-AAB8-4A4F-BA6D-0C4A77C95910

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Jan 14, 2023

Can I use the setup on the diagram, but with the original Starlink router? The aim in my case is just to extend the cable. I am asking because I thought that there is already one POE (48V) in original Starlink router and what would happen if I bring the Tycon one (52V powered) right after it. Would that work?

C725C2A2-AAB8-4A4F-BA6D-0C4A77C95910

Yes you can. But I think dishypowa or Mcown injector is a better option.

@OleksandrSimakov
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Thanks

@WIMMPYIII
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Thanks

With dishypowa or the Mcown you are not crossing pairs back and forth you are just terminating standard 568b.

@OleksandrSimakov
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OleksandrSimakov commented Jan 17, 2023

After the setup is done as described (with blue-green swaps on cables to poe and power adapter 52v as recommended), Starlink router lamp is off and the app says „connect to starlink wi-fi“. What could be the reason? When I remove poe and power adapter and connect straight back to dishy the Starlink router lamp becomes on, but the app says starlink is disconnected (probably because of lack of poe). Cat5e extension length is 180‘ and original cable 75‘.
What is I try to use a standard passive poe?

@WIMMPYIII
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After the setup is done as described (with blue-green swaps on cables to poe and power adapter 52v as recommended), Starlink router lamp is off and the app says „connect to starlink wi-fi“. What could be the reason? When I remove poe and power adapter and connect straight back to dishy the Starlink router lamp becomes on, but the app says starlink is disconnected (probably because of lack of poe). Cat5e extension length is 180‘ and original cable 75‘. What is I try to use a standard passive poe?

What power supply are you using? What is it's specs. What injector are you using and what are it's max throughput specs?

@OleksandrSimakov
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WL7R26Z
and
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P8WNWFD
I plug router cable to injector‘s socket „data and poe“ and dishy cable to the socket „data“ and the adapter starts to make beep sound each several seconds.

@WIMMPYIII
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The dishy should be the poe port the router data only.

@OleksandrSimakov
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Your question revealed my mistake. I used poe with a different pinout. Not this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P8WNWFD
But this one
FFEEF693-00C3-4A9B-B267-D2C8C5B3E809

Can I swap the wires to go with this one or I need to buy the exact one above?

@WIMMPYIII
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As long as you get the right + - on the right wires you should be fine. But if you mess it up it can definitely fry the dishy.

@WIMMPYIII
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Your question revealed my mistake. I used poe with a different pinout. Not this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P8WNWFD But this one FFEEF693-00C3-4A9B-B267-D2C8C5B3E809

Can I swap the wires to go with this one or I need to buy the exact one above?

Did you get it working?

@OleksandrSimakov
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Your question revealed my mistake. I used poe with a different pinout. Not this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P8WNWFD But this one FFEEF693-00C3-4A9B-B267-D2C8C5B3E809
Can I swap the wires to go with this one or I need to buy the exact one above?

Did you get it working?

Not with this poe I mentioned above.
Will wait till a proper one.
At least the dishy is not fried. Works with original cable

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 23, 2023

This seems to be a more detailed breakdown of the pinouts; it's a breakdown of the ethernet dongle but there is a lot of information about the power and a little more in the comments. Of course I don't know whether any of it is correct:

https://olegkutkov.me/2022/03/07/reverse-engineering-of-the-starlink-ethernet-adapter/

The two things I find significant (if, of course, they are correct) is that the G O pairs are doubled on the pins but the B BR pairs are not. The author suggests that power is not present on the B BR pairs; the diagram of the pinout states this, and it would make sense, sort of, to do it that way.

The second is @POE_Guys comment about the snow melt; search for "185W". That's what happened to me a couple of days ago; it started snowing and something got fried. Once again I don't know of the 185W figure is correct (I haven't looked at the router teardown to see if there is any chance it can deliver that) but it would seem to make sense to put a pretty damn powerful PoE right next to the antenna.

EDIT: is the data wiring half-duplex? Back in the day we used to run two ethers down one set of 4 pairs using a splitter; the green-orange pair gave the first connection, the blue-brown pair the second (which a splitter had to map back to green-orange on the output). It would make sense not to duplicate the wires for the real data lines, and half duplex is more than enough for StarLink.

@jsharper
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EDIT: is the data wiring half-duplex? Back in the day we used to run two ethers down one set of 4 pairs using a splitter; the green-orange pair gave the first connection, the blue-brown pair the second (which a splitter had to map back to green-orange on the output). It would make sense not to duplicate the wires for the real data lines, and half duplex is more than enough for StarLink.

It's true, 10mbps and 100mbps only use two pairs. But for 1000mbps (gige), you need all four pairs. Starlink definitely needs gige and uses all four pairs. (Note - when using 2 pairs for 10 or 100, it's still capable of full duplex; one pair is for data flowing in each direction)

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 23, 2023

But for 1000mbps (gige), you need all four pairs.

Half duplex 1000mps is apparently part of the gigabit standard:

https://networkengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/34196/has-half-duplex-gigabit-ethernet-ever-been-used

Gigabit is 1000mbps per double pair, so full duplex is 1000mbps download and 1000mbps upload (on the other pair). StarLink control both ends of the cable; one in the antenna, the other the router, so they could implement half duplex sharing the 1000mbps between upload and download and they would have well over their approximately 200mbps+20mbps peak. Even for business with 200+200 that's still way less than 1000.

The only way to know is to split out the mangled USB-C connectors using a couple of breakouts and experiment. What happens if the antenna is plugged directly into a managed switch? A managed switch is the easiest way I know to debug the other end of an ethernet cable because the management UI says precisely what is happening.

This is what I would actually like to do; my system is fried and I'm on hold with StarLink support (perhaps for ever). I don't know if the antenna, the router, or the cable is the problem but regardless given the number of reports of this problem on r/StarLink it would be nice to remove all but the antenna. All the same it isn't clear to me from this conversation or others what results people have got, if any, from plugging the StarLink ethernet into a managed switch; does it work, is it full duplex and is it reliable?

The negotiation is apparently half-duplex:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet

So another possibility is that the antenna negotations the download side to the BL-BR pairs, where I'm guessing the transmission is more reliable, and puts up with failures on the duplicated OR-GR pairs.

Yet BL and GR have been swapped; that's weird too. I guess it means that, in fact, each half of the duplex has one pair of lines which are doubled and another which are single?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 23, 2023

The whole shebang looks like 802.3bt, as someone observed on Oleg's teardown. It's easy to find with a breakout; just look for "rsig" across the various pairs. The way the wiring works:

https://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/136209-next-generation-poe-ieee-802-3bt-white-paper

The rsig connects each of the pair of pairs across which the power must be delivered. The catch is that there is a bridge rectifier in front of each rsig. If the pairs are not matched correctly in the "dual signature" mode bad things are likely to happen. Otherwise, single signature, it should be possible to make any arbitrary pair of the pairs positive and the other pair of pairs negative and, because of the two bridge rectifiers, it seems to me positive will end up on positive and negative on negative from both supply channels. This is assuming the power source on the other end has cojoined positive and cojoined negative.

The first test is to check the antenna rsig to see if it is single signature or dual signature or, maybe, neither (in which case ignore all this post). In "single" it's not possible (I think) to deduce which pairs connect to which bridge rectifier. Indeed if the circuit is rearranged it is easy to see that there are no bridge rectifiers as such; just a pair of diodes to connect each pair to either positive or negative as appropriate (but I guess that is a bridge rectifier, just a four lane bridge ;-)

The transformers burn out if the individual wires from the pairs are mis-wired. This puts the full 48V with it's massive current capability across just a couple of small transformers (well, 50% of the time I think).

So far as I can see any 802.3bt injector should work, such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D3CKBMS

I.e. I'm saying that the actual polarity does not matter if it really is 802.3bt and, if it is single signature, neither should the polarity on any pair just so long as two are positive and two negative.

@WIMMPYIII
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The whole shebang looks like 802.3bt, as someone observed on Oleg's teardown. It's easy to find with a breakout; just look for "rsig" across the various pairs. The way the wiring works:

https://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/136209-next-generation-poe-ieee-802-3bt-white-paper

The rsig connects each of the pair of pairs across which the power must be delivered. The catch is that there is a bridge rectifier in front of each rsig. If the pairs are not matched correctly in the "dual signature" mode bad things are likely to happen. Otherwise, single signature, it should be possible to make any arbitrary pair of the pairs positive and the other pair of pairs negative and, because of the two bridge rectifiers, it seems to me positive will end up on positive and negative on negative from both supply channels. This is assuming the power source on the other end has cojoined positive and cojoined negative.

The first test is to check the antenna rsig to see if it is single signature or dual signature or, maybe, neither (in which case ignore all this post). In "single" it's not possible (I think) to deduce which pairs connect to which bridge rectifier. Indeed if the circuit is rearranged it is easy to see that there are no bridge rectifiers as such; just a pair of diodes to connect each pair to either positive or negative as appropriate (but I guess that is a bridge rectifier, just a four lane bridge ;-)

The transformers burn out if the individual wires from the pairs are mis-wired. This puts the full 48V with it's massive current capability across just a couple of small transformers (well, 50% of the time I think).

So far as I can see any 802.3bt injector should work, such as this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D3CKBMS

I.e. I'm saying that the actual polarity does not matter if it really is 802.3bt and, if it is single signature, neither should the polarity on any pair just so long as two are positive and two negative.

No, it absolutely does not work!
You may be able to get by with it if you turn the heater off and never use heat, if you can even get it to boot. But if its mounted 150ft somewhere you probably don't want to go without heat.
It is not nearly enough power to handle the load spikes it demands. You need more than 100w if you are going to go over 150ft.
Not all stock routers are 100% stable at 150ft with the 48v internal power unit when it is freezing out.
I think starlink is pushing it very close to the threshold of what awg 23-24 stranded pairs can handle.
Slightly higher voltage takes a little stress off the cable too so depending on your distance it should be at least 52v or higher going over the 150ft mark.
That puts you ahead of the cable failure statistics. The last thing you want is the cable close to the edge of failure on a tree or tower or burried 150+ feet out in the yard or field.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 23, 2023

You may be able to get by with it if you turn the heater off and never use heat, if you can even get it to boot. But if its mounted 150ft somewhere you probably don't want to go without heat.

If I do this I will be mounting the PoE injector about 3ft cable length from the antenna. I could probably even drop it to 1ft. The data-only side of the PoE will then sit approximately 18ft from the router (a Synology RT2600ac) and since that doesn't shielded ports I can just run a standard SFTP or, indeed, a cheap 18ft CAT7 (shielded plugs but really thin wire).

I spent a lot of time thinking about it and it is weirding me out that the Orange Brown pairs have doubled contacts. It looks like 802.3bt with a dual-signature PD and then the orange-brown pairs are used for the high current load and the blue-green for the voltage sensitive side. In that case the orange brown could be directly connected to the heating elements (at 48V, or whatever volage ends up at the dish). Having two independent PoE injectors would make sense.

But I suspect that's not what they engineered; I can's see why so many people are suddenly ending up with fried systems just after a snowfall. This is, of course, why I'm investigating this; I can save $50/day on my backup internet (AT&T) if I can fix this without having to wait for StarLink customer support.

@WIMMPYIII
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You may be able to get by with it if you turn the heater off and never use heat, if you can even get it to boot. But if its mounted 150ft somewhere you probably don't want to go without heat.

If I do this I will be mounting the PoE injector about 3ft cable length from the antenna. I could probably even drop it to 1ft. The data-only side of the PoE will then sit approximately 18ft from the router (a Synology RT2600ac) and since that doesn't shielded ports I can just run a standard SFTP or, indeed, a cheap 18ft CAT7 (shielded plugs but really thin wire).

I spent a lot of time thinking about it and it is weirding me out that the Orange Brown pairs have doubled contacts. It looks like 802.3bt with a dual-signature PD and then the orange-brown pairs are used for the high current load and the blue-green for the voltage sensitive side. In that case the orange brown could be directly connected to the heating elements (at 48V, or whatever volage ends up at the dish). Having two independent PoE injectors would make sense.

But I suspect that's not what they engineered; I can's see why so many people are suddenly ending up with fried systems just after a snowfall. This is, of course, why I'm investigating this; I can save $50/day on my backup internet (AT&T) if I can fix this without having to wait for StarLink customer support.

But the amazon poe you listed is $70. Why not just get the injection hardware you know works? Like 800-GIGE-POE or dishypowa and REOLINK 52V 2.88A power adapter.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 24, 2023

But the amazon poe you listed is $70. Why not just get the injection hardware you know works? Like 800-GIGE-POE or dishypowa and REOLINK 52V 2.88A power adapter.

Because then I have to buy McCown PoE injector or similar (the NZ product) AND the REOLINK or similar and that's a lot more than $70, or, indeed, $50 for this, which I now have on order:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MJJTH2B

(I cancelled the Cody order, which had not even been processed.) The above product is clearly documented as having surge suppression and it has a guaranteed delivery date (as did the Cody prodcut). The Cody product has a ground screw as well but the Amazon add doesn't document surge protection.

I couldn't find the 800-GIGE-POE available anywhere; this is the "outdoor" model installed in a weatherproof case. I did find the 800-GIGE-POE-APC (the rack mount model) for $75, including shipping from just one supplier, I have that on order; no confirmation of any delivery time, they said "in stock" but it won't be the first time I've ordered an "in stock" item to have only have it after it was in stock by the retailers supplier. I also have several of the other possibilities on order from Amazon.

The cost is immaterial; as I said I was bleeding $50 (maybe more)/day. I've now got a Plan B that will cost me around $100 per month (continuously) but gives me a failover link.

So what I'm looking for now is a way to fix StarLink and that means understanding the PoE stuff; this is why I am posting here.

What I want is the most reliable solution I can hack and that would seem to mean leaving StarLink out as much as possible and, at the same time, understanding the PoE going into the antenna. I don't want to just hack it (though I will if I have to) I really want to understand it, at least for the next few days.

@WIMMPYIII
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But the amazon poe you listed is $70. Why not just get the injection hardware you know works? Like 800-GIGE-POE or dishypowa and REOLINK 52V 2.88A power adapter.

Because then I have to buy McCown PoE injector or similar (the NZ product) AND the REOLINK or similar and that's a lot more than $70, or, indeed, $50 for this, which I now have on order:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MJJTH2B

(I cancelled the Cody order, which had not even been processed.) The above product is clearly documented as having surge suppression and it has a guaranteed delivery date (as did the Cody prodcut). The Cody product has a ground screw as well but the Amazon add doesn't document surge protection.

I couldn't find the 800-GIGE-POE available anywhere; this is the "outdoor" model installed in a weatherproof case. I did find the 800-GIGE-POE-APC (the rack mount model) for $75, including shipping from just one supplier, I have that on order; no confirmation of any delivery time, they said "in stock" but it won't be the first time I've ordered an "in stock" item to have only have it after it was in stock by the retailers supplier. I also have several of the other possibilities on order from Amazon.

The cost is immaterial; as I said I was bleeding $50 (maybe more)/day. I've now got a Plan B that will cost me around $100 per month (continuously) but gives me a failover link.

So what I'm looking for now is a way to fix StarLink and that means understanding the PoE stuff; this is why I am posting here.

What I want is the most reliable solution I can hack and that would seem to mean leaving StarLink out as much as possible and, at the same time, understanding the PoE going into the antenna. I don't want to just hack it (though I will if I have to) I really want to understand it, at least for the next few days.

I have used the rack mount versions as well for the same stocking reason. It is very easy to solder a ground wire lead on the metal tab section and is easier to get 100% waterproof in a 4x4x2 electrical box from home depot then the ones made for outdoor.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 24, 2023

https://www.neobits.com/mccown_technology_800_gige_poe_apc_mccown_technology_p10399422.html

Yep; that's where I got it from. Here's the text from my orders page. I chose the cheapest shipping option that was offered:

NW568174 Shipped Complete 01/22/2023 $72.33

And, according to FedEx they did it (so that is a ++ for neobits.com):

Monday, 1/23/2023	
3:59 PM
Shipment information sent to FedEx
5:18 PM
Picked up
WEST CHESTER, OH

This is github, not facebook; you asked me to justify investigating PoE injectors and I did, but that was an ad hominem attack from the gitgo.

I'm still simply trying to find the best way to do an end run round what I consider to be a necessary restriction (given that I don't dispute the power rating exceeds that allowed by RJ45) done by StarLink yet implemented in a way that doesn't seem to quite work.

I suggest we discuss why RJ45 is limited to 90W in 802.3bt. It's not simply ISO/IEC 60950, even the white paper for 802.3bt states:

[T]his compliance means that power cannot exceed 100W per port.

Yet my reading of 60950 suggests that the actual limit is 240W per cable; the spec places a hard limit of 60V and 240VA for more than 200ms. But bt has a limit of 960mA per pair so, combined with 60V (bt says 57.6V at the PSE, but close enough) that would only be 120VA max at the PD, given that the current goes out and comes back on the same cable.

I take the Chuck McCown point of using all four pairs for delivery and ground for return (so 4A out and 4A back via the ground) but I actually once owned a house where someone had done something like that (the neutral to a socket was broken so someone jacked it to the nearest available neutral) and that struck me as the most scary piece of wiring I have ever seen.

Addendum to what I said before: the Cody spec sheet (PDF) does actually say it has surge protection, but it doesn't include a spec of the rating.

@WIMMPYIII
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https://www.neobits.com/mccown_technology_800_gige_poe_apc_mccown_technology_p10399422.html

Yep; that's where I got it from. Here's the text from my orders page. I chose the cheapest shipping option that was offered:

NW568174 Shipped Complete 01/22/2023 $72.33

And, according to FedEx they did it (so that is a ++ for neobits.com):

Monday, 1/23/2023	
3:59 PM
Shipment information sent to FedEx
5:18 PM
Picked up
WEST CHESTER, OH

This is github, not facebook; you asked me to justify investigating PoE injectors and I did, but that was an ad hominem attack from the gitgo.

I'm still simply trying to find the best way to do an end run round what I consider to be a necessary restriction (given that I don't dispute the power rating exceeds that allowed by RJ45) done by StarLink yet implemented in a way that doesn't seem to quite work.

I suggest we discuss why RJ45 is limited to 90W in 802.3bt. It's not simply ISO/IEC 60950, even the white paper for 802.3bt states:

[T]his compliance means that power cannot exceed 100W per port.

Yet my reading of 60950 suggests that the actual limit is 240W per cable; the spec places a hard limit of 60V and 240VA for more than 200ms. But bt has a limit of 960mA per pair so, combined with 60V (bt says 57.6V at the PSE, but close enough) that would only be 120VA max at the PD, given that the current goes out and comes back on the same cable.

I take the Chuck McCown point of using all four pairs for delivery and ground for return (so 4A out and 4A back via the ground) but I actually once owned a house where someone had done something like that (the neutral to a socket was broken so someone jacked it to the nearest available neutral) and that struck me as the most scary piece of wiring I have ever seen.

Addendum to what I said before: the Cody spec sheet (PDF) does actually say it has surge protection, but it doesn't include a spec of the rating.

Sorry it came across as an attack I just didn't want to see you or anyone else go down a path of supplying lower wattage then the router itself supplies as it is already underpower to handle the dishy demands.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 24, 2023

I just didn't want to see you or anyone else go down a path of supplying lower wattage then the router itself supplies as it is already underpower to handle the dishy demands.

Well yes; I'm certainly not disputing the high power requirements of the antenna. What is more if the antenna is a purely passive PD then, as I understand it, none of the 802.3 PSEs will work at all; my understanding is that if the PSE cannot detect the 'signature' resistance on the PD then it can't put any voltage across the conductor pairs in the first place. If I can use an 802.3bt (which means iff the antenna does the negotiation) then I'd want to find a wiring method that didn't cause the PSE to drop the connection on heater overload and I suspect that isn't possible (the PSE has to drop both the channels, not just the one that overloads). Nevertheless I can turn the snow melt off (I don't need it) and 802.3bt has much better protections.

StarLink are bound by 60950-SELF and by the other cable rating standards (NEC, UL etc). If they put a consumer accessible RJ45 on the cable they also get limited by spec and limitations on RJ45, in particular a consumer connection to existing cabling (CAT5 and earlier) infrastructure. So far as I can make out that is where the 90W comes from. Using a proprietary connector removes the possibility of a consumer connection; either the cable has to be cut or the ends have to be ground off a USB-C socket (I intend to do the latter next). Presumably this is enough to remove the 90W/cable limit and, most likely, allow the router to put 120VA or more into the connector.

@WIMMPYIII
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I just didn't want to see you or anyone else go down a path of supplying lower wattage then the router itself supplies as it is already underpower to handle the dishy demands.

Well yes; I'm certainly not disputing the high power requirements of the antenna. What is more if the antenna is a purely passive PD then, as I understand it, none of the 802.3 PSEs will work at all; my understanding is that if the PSE cannot detect the 'signature' resistance on the PD then it can't put any voltage across the conductor pairs in the first place. If I can use an 802.3bt (which means iff the antenna does the negotiation) then I'd want to find a wiring method that didn't cause the PSE to drop the connection on heater overload and I suspect that isn't possible (the PSE has to drop both the channels, not just the one that overloads). Nevertheless I can turn the snow melt off (I don't need it) and 802.3bt has much better protections.

StarLink are bound by 60950-SELF and by the other cable rating standards (NEC, UL etc). If they put a consumer accessible RJ45 on the cable they also get limited by spec and limitations on RJ45, in particular a consumer connection to existing cabling (CAT5 and earlier) infrastructure. So far as I can make out that is where the 90W comes from. Using a proprietary connector removes the possibility of a consumer connection; either the cable has to be cut or the ends have to be ground off a USB-C socket (I intend to do the latter next). Presumably this is enough to remove the 90W/cable limit and, most likely, allow the router to put 120VA or more into the connector.

Please update us on how that goes.

@proavnerd
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Forgive me if this has already been covered. What if I'm just trying to splice the proprietary ends onto existing category cable? Can I just hack off both ends, terminate them with RJ45 plugs and connect to the length of cable routed through my walls? I presume this will work out just fine, assuming I'm terminating everything 568b. No injectors. Cat6 cable length under 150'. Anyone here done this before?

@WIMMPYIII
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Forgive me if this has already been covered. What if I'm just trying to splice the proprietary ends onto existing category cable? Can I just hack off both ends, terminate them with RJ45 plugs and connect to the length of cable routed through my walls? I presume this will work out just fine, assuming I'm terminating everything 568b. No injectors. Cat6 cable length under 150'. Anyone here done this before?

Yes that will work but keep in mind this will be more resistance then you are going to get with a stock 150ft cable with 2 plugs what you are talking about will be 6 plugs the 2 original and 4 between. And stranded rj45 plugs suck and passing power compared to solid conductors. The stock power supply in the router is already underpowered and undervolted for the power demand the dishy is putting on it. You are probably better off using k2 double blade cable connectors for you splices. But if you are staying under 150ft why not just use the stock cable?

@proavnerd
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Thanks for the reply. The distance is probably 60-80' end to end. While I have no doubt that power would pass better through gel bean K2 connectors, these are more for telephone signal. Data is susceptible to interference and other issues if the twist and shielding is not properly maintained.

You do ask a valid question though. Why not just use the stock cable? This is going on the roof of an ultra high end residence for internet failover. There are cables routed from the roof to the equipment racks already. Putting a new proprietary cable in place would require a tremendous amount of work, as silly as that sounds.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 29, 2023

This is going on the roof of an ultra high end residence for internet failover.

This gist is very much for people who are living on the edge. The RJ45 is limited to 90W, and then only with PSEs which meet the requirements of the IEC specs, the StarLink antenna requires more than that.

I just wouldn't do it that way. Run the infrastructure wiring as close as possible to the place the antenna will go, run power too. Put the router there; I'm guessing the installation uses the ethernet dongle because otherwise doing failover is, well, complex. (I have an installation with failover, but mine is the other way round; my local ISP is providing the failover for StarLink.)

Don't splice, or mod, the StarLink kit; just coil the 75ft cable up in the loft or wherever the router ends up. This is what I ended up doing, it worked just fine until the StarLink kit failed, but I own the house so I'm looking at getting rid of the router completely. Believe me when I sell this place that kind of stuff will be removed before the place even goes on the market (I live in the US.)

@proavnerd
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Tonight I replicated the setup at my client's house. The 75' proprietary cable was cut about 15' from the modem end. The signal path is now modem > Ethernet adapter > 15' of proprietary cable with RJ45 jack > 25' of Cat6 with plugs on both ends > 100' of Cat6 with jacks on both ends > 60' of proprietary cable with a plug on the end > dishy.

I'm running through a total of 200' of cable with 2 different cable skews and 3 junctions and it works fine. To validate my results, I pulled out the FLIR camera to take some photos of the connectors. The chatter here and elsewhere indicates that Starlink is using the modified USBC connectors to accommodate the amperage required by dishy. I expected the RJ45 junctions to be the weakest link in the chain and to see some heat generated there. That was not the case though. All the connectors are at room temperature, regardless of whether the heater is on or off.

The cables do appear to be about 3° warmer than room temperature, but that trivial amount of heat could still be residual from me coiling the cables after cutting them off the spool.

Reality here is that you could fill the ocean with things I don't know about how this actually works. How many watts does dishy actually draw when the heater is on? Is it different when the heater is in auto mode vs pre-heat? The cable I used isn't shielded. Does it matter? Should I have eaten that whole burrito? The list goes on forever. But I suspect that this the power supply is designed for the worst case scenario, taking into account voltage drop for the 150' proprietary cable and all the things (heater, servo motors, etc) operating at the same time. Likely for a more sustained period of time than will ever actually happen.

Should you do this? Absolutely not, as noted in the disclaimer at the top of the thread. Can you do this? Probably. Am I actually going to void the warranty on my client's backup satellite internet hardware just to make the cables pretty? -Yup.

@WIMMPYIII
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Tonight I replicated the setup at my client's house. The 75' proprietary cable was cut about 15' from the modem end. The signal path is now modem > Ethernet adapter > 15' of proprietary cable with RJ45 jack > 25' of Cat6 with plugs on both ends > 100' of Cat6 with jacks on both ends > 60' of proprietary cable with a plug on the end > dishy.

I'm running through a total of 200' of cable with 2 different cable skews and 3 junctions and it works fine. To validate my results, I pulled out the FLIR camera to take some photos of the connectors. The chatter here and elsewhere indicates that Starlink is using the modified USBC connectors to accommodate the amperage required by dishy. I expected the RJ45 junctions to be the weakest link in the chain and to see some heat generated there. That was not the case though. All the connectors are at room temperature, regardless of whether the heater is on or off.

The cables do appear to be about 3° warmer than room temperature, but that trivial amount of heat could still be residual from me coiling the cables after cutting them off the spool.

Reality here is that you could fill the ocean with things I don't know about how this actually works. How many watts does dishy actually draw when the heater is on? Is it different when the heater is in auto mode vs pre-heat? The cable I used isn't shielded. Does it matter? Should I have eaten that whole burrito? The list goes on forever. But I suspect that this the power supply is designed for the worst case scenario, taking into account voltage drop for the 150' proprietary cable and all the things (heater, servo motors, etc) operating at the same time. Likely for a more sustained period of time than will ever actually happen.

Should you do this? Absolutely not, as noted in the disclaimer at the top of the thread. Can you do this? Probably. Am I actually going to void the warranty on my client's backup satellite internet hardware just to make the cables pretty? -Yup.

How much more stress is this putting on the internal power supply and how will the dishy handle the voltage and amperage drop over a long period of time is the question.

@OleksandrSimakov
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Should I activate bridge mode if I want to use my own router in this setup?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jan 31, 2023

Should I activate bridge mode if I want to use my own router in this setup?

So far as I can see bridge mode is only required if IPv6 is required. If you are happy with the StarLink router as an IPv4 failover then I believe it should be possible to plug the dongle ethernet into the WAN port of a router with failover support but would result in triple NAT.

It seems much more simple to use "bypass" (i.e. bridge mode); having two routers just complicates the configuration and, indeed, the StarLink router wifi can't be switched off or hidden so that complicates the user experience as well. Bypass mode isn't perfect because the traffic still goes through two ethernet systems and, most likely, the MCU but I don't know if the antenna will boot without the ethernet connection; with PoE from a separate injector.

@OleksandrSimakov
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Should I activate bridge mode if I want to use my own router in this setup?

So far as I can see bridge mode is only required if IPv6 is required. If you are happy with the StarLink router as an IPv4 failover then I believe it should be possible to plug the dongle ethernet into the WAN port of a router with failover support but would result in triple NAT.

It seems much more simple to use "bypass" (i.e. bridge mode); having two routers just complicates the configuration and, indeed, the StarLink router wifi can't be switched off or hidden so that complicates the user experience as well. Bypass mode isn't perfect because the traffic still goes through two ethernet systems and, most likely, the MCU but I don't know if the antenna will boot without the ethernet connection; with PoE from a separate injector.

Thanks for insights. I would better stick to original Starlink router. For me there is no particular reason to use my own wi-fi router. Original one would suffice for my my needs

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 1, 2023

For me there is no particular reason to use my own wi-fi router.

The terminology has evolved over the years and become confusing as a result. Both StarLink and my local ISP provide a bridge, in the form of the antennae, and then what is now called a router but used to be called a gateway is required afterward. Setting "bypass" mode on the StarLink router bypasses the gateway functionality of the router and means that another router (well, another gateway) is required.

Setting the StarLink router into bypass mode is not something anyone needs to do unless they already know then need to do it.

@morehardware
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Ive had some difficulty converting my Starlink to 12 volts. I terminated my stock cable and built my own POE using the typical components described in youtube vids and Reddit forums confirmed to be working - 12 volt to 48V 3amp step up powersupply , Tycon POE injector. I put the Starlink in Bridge mode, hooked everything to a GL-Inet Beryl router wan port with the properly terminated ends (one swapped and the other not) and powered it up. The Starlink would attach for 30 seconds and then disconnect. I left it in this cycle for 3 hours and still no IP. I am mounting this on the roof of my van and my cable runs are extremely short. My gut feeling was that my power supply was too weak. I am plugging it into 15amp fused cigarette lighter socket. I bought a Mean well DDR120c and cranked it up to 50 volts and tried again but I am getting the same error. I was about to give up when I found a person using a 120volt to 48 volt stepdown transformer. I bought one and hooked it to a brand new Tycon POE Injector and it attached and acquired an IP successfully. There is obviously a difference in the 48 volts 3A coming from the 120 volt Power transformer and the Mean Well Converter at 48 volt 2.5 amps (besides the .5 amps) . The Mean Well has seemed to be a pretty dependable power supply for this MOD. I even tried to hook the Mean Well directly to a 12 car battery. Using 12 gauge wire all around. Any ideas about why my 12 volt to 48 volt system wont stay connected. but my 120 volt to 48 volt system works great?

![Screenshot 2023-02-01 at 9 18 33 PM](https://
Screenshot 2023-02-01 at 8 39 25 PM
user-images.githubusercontent.com/124229469/216238183-446fe523-4a24-413c-9be1-24a14363dda8.png)
IMG_0876

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 2, 2023

I bought one and hooked it to a brand new Tycon POE Injector and it attached and acquired an IP successfully.

One potential weak point is the ethernet transformer chip used inside the PoE. There are a lot of these chips around but most of them only have a "30W" or "60W" capability. So far as I can see the transformer must be one of the newest ones designed for the highest power (class 8) 802.3bt; these have to support a continuous 99W at the PSE and I think that means 960mA/pair or 480mA/conductor. Even then, if the numbers are right, the transformer is being run over-powered. You seem to have the right Tycon injector, but they may use that box for lower power devices. Check what you have against the Tycon data:

https://www.tyconsystems.com/PoE-Injectors_c_172-1-2.html

(Search for the actual model number on that page.) I intend to double check the McCown and the Tycon (I have both) but the number given above for the McCown injector seems to correspond to a Pulse Electronics 30W (802.3at) transformer.

It would be a useful test to swap the old Tycon injector back without changing the setup to see if this has failed or not.

The likely failure point is startup of a cold dish. If "snow melt" is turned on this will draw maximum power. It's not clear to me that higher voltage helps here; heaters are normally purely passive so a higher voltage increases the current requirement in proportion. There are cheaper testers on Amazon that can test the actual power delivery:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08B46PMV3

But if the current goes over the limit something is likely to break... Check the output voltage of the two 48V supplies under load; at 2.4A. I do have one of those supplies (the first, switching, 3A/48V PSU) so I'm going to try to test that. It would be interesting to know which of them generates the lower voltage. The regular (non-switching) PSU will probably also have considerable ripple; who knows, that might help!

I couldn't work out which systems you have working. It seems the 48V/3A didn't work and neither did the Mean Well initially. They are both switching PSUs. Then there was a step down transformer system which seems to be the approach in your picture. Those are pretty hard to come by these days and the peak voltage one would deliver is almost 68V; the actual output depends on the voltage regulator inside the PSU, if there is one.

I've also encountered one 12V high current (10A or something like that) switching PSU which could not supply a low current (below 1A); it would just stop working. This seems to be a feature of high current PSUs, but it may be just a fault in the one I was trying to use.

In any case I have snow melt turned off; it's a persistent setting on the StarLink antenna (the dish). I might experiment with turning it back on but only if I have it powered through the StarLink kit (i.e. from the router). I want to find out what the actual current draw is first and I want to compare it with "preheat". There's no pre-heat only setting though, so if "snow melt" draws the kind of current people are suggesting it's pretty much useless without special ethernet transformers. I've seen 185W quoted, but that is almost twice what Oleg Kutkov quotes the router PSE as being able to output (120W):

https://olegkutkov.me/2022/04/10/initial-analysis-of-the-starlink-router-gen2/

It may be that the router has a slow turn-on or, indeed, maybe it is doing full 802.3bt with LLDP to negotiate power with the antenna? I'm still at the stage of needing to make test leads (SPX to RJ45) before I can find out more.

@torrmundi
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McCown 800-GIGE-APC transformer data sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CN1s0zdzvzn7WFps7vP6IgSC8o0_H3rV/view?usp=share_link
Dishpowa transformer data sheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10vF1zdiZoWkZGcegcOFoDLXQ6KCrkKwQ/view?usp=share_link

I blew out a Tycon POE-INJ-1000-WT transformer (unmarked part) and it shorted 1,2,4,5 to 7,8 and killed my dishy permanently. I could not find any fault in my wiring - I think the transformer chip simply overloaded.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 2, 2023

Note that Tycon make two of these:

https://www.tyconsystems.com/poe-inj-1000-wt Gigabit Passive PoE Injector/Splitter with LED Indicator. Injects or splits DC power on all 8 wires. 1245(+) 3678(-). Wire terminal connector. 2.25A. VIN=VOUT. Ubiquiti airFiber

https://www.tyconsystems.com/poe-inj-1000-wtx Gigabit Passive PoE Injector/Splitter with LED Indicator. Injects or splits DC Power on all 8 wires. 1278(-) 3645(+). Wire terminal connector. 2.25A. VIN=VOUT

The first (without the "x") is the standard 802.3af etc approach which puts the power across the transmit/receive pairs of a single channel; 12-36 (orange green) is the first channel used in half-duplex (4 conductor) pairs and 45-78 is the second channel for full duplex

The second one puts the positive on the middle four pins, 4536 (red, green pairs) and the negative on the outer (1278, orange brown) pairs. So plugging a WTx injector into any regular device with 4 pair PoE put a positive and a negative together on the pairs which normally supply either the positive or negative. On a diode protected PD this is no problem; the diodes route the positive or negative to the right place. On something with no diodes there is a short circuit that will instantly blow out the ethernet transformers in one or both ends (or a mixture of the two).

The StarLink is, I believe (DO NOT RELY ON THIS STATEMENT - check yourself) 1236+, 4578- Note that the WTs both put useable power on each half-duplex but that StarLink does not. The Tycon WT has 12(+)36(-), 45(+)78(-) and the Wtx has 12(-)36(+), 45(+)78(-) the latter corresponds to T-568A where green/orange (12, 36) are swapped relative to T-568B. Whereas StarLink has 12(+)36(+) 78(-)45(-) One half-duplex pair-of-pairs is wired positive, the other negative. Presumably there is some benefit to this...

The obvious protection is to wire four IN4005 diodes in the right direction from the PSU to the center taps of the transformers in the PoE injector. That protects both ends (PD and PSE) except that the PD might end up with positive and negative supply rails swapped. Better is to protect the PD, but that increases the power requirement at the PSE injection point (until if the diodes are in the PSE, before the injection point).

EDIT (important): diodes in the PSE will not help. The diodes have to be in the PD to prevent miswiring at the PSE or PD end from connecting the PSE + directly to the PSE -. Given that @OleksandrSimakov apparently fried at least the PSE with the Tycon WTX it certainly sounds like the Dish does not have protection diodes. Aargh; they should have put protection diodes in and gone with a higher voltage; at least 57.6V. the diodes will output a small number of watts, but only if pre-heat or snow-melt is on when, surely, it doesn't matter...

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Feb 2, 2023 via email

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Feb 3, 2023

I purchased a POE Tester (Noyafa NF488S) from Amazon. There were issues:

  1. cannot test Starlink non-standard 4PPoe
  2. does not measure standard 4PPoe power correctly
  3. does not indicate positive or negative voltages on 4PPoe wires

Results:
With 4pair PoE injecter, Tycon, 1,2,4,5 (V+) 3,6,7,8 (V-)

  • the tester showed midspan with all 8 lines as active, but not which are positive or negative. Voltage was measured.
  • the tester, with no PD connected, showed that 15W was being dissipated
  • the tester, with a PD connected (Peplink Max BR1 Mini), showed that 19W was dissipated

With Starlink cable, midspan, 1,2,3,6 (V+) 4,5,7,8 (V-)

  • "unknown" was displayed, and no lines as active. Voltage was measured.
  • 0.0W power measurement
  • The cable was able to be used for data transmission, with the tester inserted midspan

@jbowler did you use the TRENDnet Inline PoE Tester, TC-NTP1 successfully?

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Feb 4, 2023 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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Didn't even know there was such an instrument. I was thinking that another way to decrease the power draw of Dishy besides turning snow melt off would be to disconnect the motors . I plan to flat mount it anyways . It’s works very dependably on the 120 volt to 48 volt transformer direct to Tyco Poe. Seems the Poe is working. Maybe there are different qualities of Poe that may only work with certain “types” of 48 volt dc power. I’m puzzled why 48 volts doesn’t work with 12 volt sources switch the TYCO in my situation and works for others. Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef

________________________________ From: torrmundi @.> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 3:04:39 PM To: torrmundi @.> Cc: Comment @.>; Manual @.> Subject: Re: darconeous/rect-starlink-cable-hack.md @torrmundi commented on this gist.
________________________________ I purchased a POE Tester (Noyafa NF488S) from Amazon. There were issues: 1. cannot test Starlink non-standard 4PPoe 2. does not measure standard 4PPoe power correctly 3. does not indicate positive or negative voltages on 4PPoe wires Results: with 4pair PoE injecter, Tycon, 1,2,4,5 (V+) 3,6,7,8 (V-) * the tester showed midspan with all 8 lines as active, but not which are positive or negative. Voltage was measured. * the tester, with no PD connected, showed that 15W was being dissipated * the tester, with a PD connected (Peplink Max BR1 Mini), showed that 19W was dissipated with Starlink cable, midspan, 1,2,3,6 (V+) 4,5,7,8 (V-) * "unknown" was displayed, and no lines as active. Voltage was measured. * 0.0W power measurement * The cable was able to be used for data transmission, with the tester inserted midspan @jbowlerhttps://github.com/jbowler did you use the TRENDnet Inline PoE Tester, TC-NTP1 successfully? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4459194 or unsubscribehttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/A5TZOXIDUMW7QZVRA4RYSMDWVWFIRBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF. You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOShttps://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Androidhttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

Did you compare exact voltage and amperage numbers as well as fluctuation between the 12 vs 120 converter? My guess is the 12 to 48 is not holding high enough volts or amps for the dishy's power regulator. And if you are running close to the edge on that power regulator that potentially creates more heat and stress.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 4, 2023

@jbowler did you use the TRENDnet Inline PoE Tester, TC-NTP1 successfully?

@torrmundi: I haven't received it yet, it should come early next week. I did also order one of the NF488 testers, possibly a slightly different revision since mine is NF-488 not NF-488S. Mine seems to work better than yours; I've done limited testing and it correctly identifies 802.3af and at, mode A (4 pairs, channel 1) and AB (both channels). It doesn't support 802.3bt and plugged into a bt switch it reports it as 802.3at with "4 pairs". The power rating when used with a PD on the PoE "Out" RJ45 seems credible. I suggest testing the accuracy of the DC out and DC in ports if you have a load tester (not that they are necessarily that accurate ;-). It's certainly a return if that doesn't work. On mine the "loopback" port doesn't seem to work but that might be my managed switches rejecting a loopback connector.

I believe the polarity of the channels is reported by the voltage; plugged into a switch with 802.3af I get a negative voltage but into the 802.3bt capable switch the voltage was positive. It would be much better if the pins were displayed with "+", "-" or " " underneath. I haven't tested with passive injectors yet; I've only had the tester 12 hours.

With Starlink cable, midspan, 1,2,3,6 (V+) 4,5,7,8 (V-)

I'm not surprised that gave "unsupported"; channel 1 is (all) positive and channel 2 negative. I haven't hacked the test leads for StarLink together yet but my default would be to fabricate swapped 36/45 pairs at both sides then I would expect to see the tester report something; the swapping makes the tester see 1,2,4,5(V+) 3,6,7,8(V-) which corresponds to the POE-INJ-1000-WT that I have and 802.3a[ft] modes A and B. BTW Tycon sells these injectors direct for $10 each and currently has 2683 (or so) in stock. Shipping is $6 USPS; cheaper than anything on Amazon.

As for the McCown I couldn't access your links; Google Drive shareable links normally work just fine for me so I think they might be something else (like the thing on the address bar when a shareable link is created?) I did get home and eyeball my own McCown 800-GIGE-POE-APC (i.e. the Cat5e APC version, not the Cat6 APC version). The transformer is a LINK-PP LP6062ANL:

http://www.link-pp.com/?product/201408082292.html

From the datasheet the current rating (for PoE) is "720mA continuous over 4 pairs", further described on the second page as "[e]xceeds 802.3at requirements with up to 720mA DC supply current over 2 or 4 pairs". This is better than the Pulse Electronics H6062NL component which it claims it's a clone of:

https://productfinder.pulseelectronics.com/part/h6062nl

The datasheet for that states, "DC CURRENT/VOLTAGE RATING 350mA MAX @57V (CONTINUOUS)", I assume that is per pair so a total current delivery/return of 700mA for 39W. So this is not an 802.3bt capable part. The maximum using 60V would be under 45W at the PSE (less at the dish of course).

I assume the Tycon parts, despite being so cheap, are using 802.3bt capable transformers; the input is up to 2.25A at 80V which means that can handle 180W at the PSE. I haven't worked out how to pop the Tycon box open yet but I think I will use the McCown for testing since the jumpers allow testing on individual pairs and I have Snow Melt off, then use a Tycon and probably order a couple more for disassembly/testing.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 4, 2023

@morehardware:

Maybe there are different qualities of Poe that may only work with certain “types” of 48 volt dc power. I’m puzzled why 48 volts doesn’t work with 12 volt sources switch the TYCO in my situation and works for others.

I find it very puzzling too. I second @WIMMPYIII's recommendation to check the voltages under load in both cases. The NF-488 has DC barrel jacks for testing a PSU connected to "DC In" and a powered device, in this case the Tycon PSE, connected to "DC Out". It can also be tested using two Tycons back-to-back (POE IN/OUT connected together) and a load tester on the "DC IN/OUT" of the second, but load testers may be more difficult because of the higher powers involved; you need to know the approximate current load in the failing system first, or just wing it and hope you don't destroy the load tester.

You are chaining a "boost" converter (12->48V) to one or more "buck" converters in the dish/antenna. The latter converts the 48V back to electronics levels, typically 3.3V or 5V these days. The snow melt may also use a buck or even boost converter but is more likely IMO to just use the original 48V switched on and off as required (possibly using PWM). There should be no problem with any of this, e.g:

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/231668/chaining-buck-converters

The connection, via the PSE and the ethernet transformers, ends up being just a pair of conductors stranded out of four of the eight 24AWG Cat5e conductors each. There's no net inductance in the leads and relatively small capacitance from the high frequency RC filters (resistor->capacitor->ground) used to remove spurious in-phase signals on the conductor pairs.

Buck and boost circuits are pretty much identical, e.g. see the circuit diagrams here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck%E2%80%93boost_converter

You could try checking the capacitor on the output side of your boost converter. It has to be sufficient to support the peak load current but, since it is feeding into a boost converter which has its own output capacitance excessive ripple may only cause a drop-out intermittently. To test a system under load put an AC voltmeter across the output of the boost converter. Better use a multi-meter that supports display of AC and DC voltage at the same time (Flukes do, others do too). Best is to find peak-peak of the AC but RMS x 1.4 (sqrt(2)) is probably enough for this. If the AC can reduce the DC below some critical voltage the buck converter on the other end might be unable to keep up the output.

It's also possible to use a Fluke or other multimeter with "fast min-max" to try to detect the minimum voltage over an extended period, but I don't know if that would be fast enough to see a significant dropout in the voltage.

@WIMMPYIII
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I ordered this 10-20VDC to 52v booster i will try when i get some free time.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803129874148.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Feb 5, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 6, 2023

More on the NF-488 and also on the StarLink router/antenna, though I will enter that separately.

My NF-488 is one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GK7CGGD

I've done more extensive testing including, finally, putting it between the router and the dish. I did see the strange wattage behavior @torrmundi reported but I still find the device useful. No doubt one of the Fluke testers would be a lot better but that is comparing something that costs $36 with something that costs $1400. I hope to receive the TRENDNet tester on Monday and that may better handle the protocol stuff than the NF-488 because supposedly it recognizes 802.3bt.

On the NF-488 most of the stuff works just fine; cable continuity is clear and precise, though it doesn't recognize a cross-over cable (it does correctly display the cross-over). DC power tests seems fine, as I said before. The loopback is apparently non functional; I can here a relay clicking on when I activate it but none of the switches I've tried give any indication of a loopback.

The device uses different RJ-45 jacks for different tests, which is ok, however the PoE tests use the same two ports and this can create wackiness; entering the PoE test mode starts the "inline test", pressing "OK" does the PSE test. Pressing OK during an "inline" test, i.e. while a PD is connected to the PoE out jack, somtimes, often, messes things up. It's not just the tester that gets messed up, well, probably it's not the tester at all, but the PSE and the PD can end up behaving weirdly.

The tester displays a "wattage" in both PSE test and in-line mode. In the PSE test mode it's not clear what the wattage is, maybe it's some guess at the PSE supported wattage because sometimes the number is very high even though there is no load (other than the tester). E.g. 8.4W with one PSE (consistently) but only a couple of watts with others. The number is not useful.

The tester correctly identifies 802.3af and 802.3at PSEs. If correctly detects Mode A and Mode B, though it incorrectly calls Mode A (power on the data pairs) "End Point" and Mode B (power on the "spare" pairs) MidPoint. It seems from the Amazon page that the TRENDNet uses the same incorrect terminology though it does also include the Mode. It doesn't identify endpoint or midpoint PSEs, how could it? It also identifies "4-pair" PSEs and this is how 802.3bt supplies are listed (unless they swap into af or at mode).

With inline testing the power seems approximately right at least with the range of splitters I have; I don't have an 802.3bt capable splitter or, for that matter, a device that I can test with (except, maybe, the StarLink antenna). I get a credible, higher, value from the tester compared to what I get from my load. All my test splitters are buck converters; the test load gives me about 80% of the tester, which is reasonable for a cheap buck converter.

The NF-488 powers off after a while. This is fine because inline test just keeps on working; the NF-488 seems to appear as a purely passive implementation so it looks, so far as I can tell, like one of the back-to-back RJ-45 female-female connectors.

My best guess as to how the PoE inline measure is done is that the device uses a single Hall effect sensor (like in a DC current clamp ammeter). These devices have the problem of needing to be zeroed and there is no zero interface in the NF-488. They are also not very accurate at low current; 1W at 50V is only 20mA. It is conceivable that the device includes an ethernet transformer, I haven't tested whether it does, but given the apparently low accuracy this doesn't seem likely.

If my assumption is correct the NF-488 requires a "standard" arrangement of PoE on either one or both Ethernet channels. The StarLink trick of putting positive on channel 1 and negative on 2 will just cancel out in the power sensor and cause the NF-488 to see an unconnected PSE. I tested StarLink using reversed green/blue pairs and I got credible (though very interesting) results from the NF-488.

I can't wait 'til Monday when I get the TRENDNet 802.3bt capable tester. Almost as good as getting an ActionMan with an FGMP-15.

@WIMMPYIII
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This is great stuff. Thank you. I will measure the amp draw on both the power supplies ( working and non working) to try to discern the difference . I found this in a Reddit thread that is also discussing the inadequacies of third party power supplies to Starlink . This 12 volt one seems to work better than the Mean Well. DC-DC Converter Module Boost DC Step Up Voltage Regulator CV Stabilizer Power Supply Module 10-60V to 12-97V 1500W 30A https://a.co/d/8AmKplF This worked where a mean well did not.

________________________________ From: WIMMPYIII @.> Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 11:29:16 AM To: WIMMPYIII @.> Cc: Comment @.>; Manual @.> Subject: Re: darconeous/rect-starlink-cable-hack.md @WIMMPYIII commented on this gist.
________________________________ I ordered this 10-20VDC to 52v booster i will try when i get some free time. https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803129874148.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4459920 or unsubscribehttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/A5TZOXKZP77LQFWYUDVSGJDWV2UY3BFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF. You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOShttps://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Androidhttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

I wonder how much heat these things produce at max dishy power? Is the fan needed with this level of draw? And what are people putting this into? An enclosure?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 6, 2023

I tested the StarLink router PoE using the NF-488 PoE (et al.) tester which I described in my previous comment. I have the tester inserted into an Ethernet Dongle cord; this was simply the quickest way of doing it. I'm not going to describe how to put the tester inline here, it seems off topic, suffice to say that I took a mighty cleaver to the Ethernet Dongle cord, chopped it in two, sewed two shielded Cat5e jacks on the exposed ends and put the tester between them. The Cat5e jacks have the blue/green pairs reversed; so pins 4,5 are swapped with pins 3,6 (keep the striped/solid conductors alternating, though it doesn't matter much).

When this is done the NF-488 correctly recognizes the StarLink router as providing "4-pair" PoE and reports voltages and "wattages" which I believe. The "wattage" may well actually be a VA but it doesn't matter with regard to the load on the connections.

The reported wattages vary between around 20W and 66W. I don't know the averaging period, indeed these might be instantaneous values, but they consistently stick within that range and the voltages vary in proportion; pretty much a peak of 48V down to 47V (this is at the PSE of course).

When used as a tester for the router PSE, i.e. with the dish disconnected, the NF-488 cannot identify the PSE. It ends up saying that it is non-standard. During these tests the router maxes out at 2.8V; i.e. with the dish disconnected it supplies no power indicating that it is an active PSE. It may be 802.3bt, as Oleg KutKov suggested, but with wacky wiring; it may even be doing LLDP. This is part of the reason I want to test the setup with the TRENDNet product which, supposedly, handles 802.3bt.

With just the antenna connected and a break-out cable I was able to find the connectivity between the pairs and, most likely, a fault in my StarLink antenna. I measured the Ethernet Transformer resistances. This is across the StarLink 75ft cable, so the resistances I say included the cable. Three of the four pairs sat at around 7.5ᘯ, the fourth pair (78, brown) was an open circuit. I then measured the resistances between the windings. These were around 3.5ᘯ for the positive and negative pairs and around 33kᘯ between those pairs. It turned out that the brown-white connection is broken somewhere; so the brown is continuous and that supplies the DC power (so the negative is over three conductors, not four) but the second ethernet channel is broken. The StarLink antenna debug data backs this up:

{ "dish": { ... "ethSpeedMbps": 100,

There is no other information anywhere that I can see showing that the ethernet is half duplex! Nevertheless that is specific to my, broken, StarLink system. EDIT: it was my error, I had not completely punched down the brown-white wire in the Cat5e jack. I'm back to "ethSpeedMbps": 1000 now.

It is absolutely clear that the PD, the antenna, is an active PoE device. It's implementing some protocol, perhaps 802.3bt with modified wiring. It also doesn't have diode protection against reverse circuit; I was using a Fluke 183 to do the resistance tests and it did not show a diode in the wiring. The router does not implement 802.3af or 802.3at; I'm confident that the tester can detect that and my test was independent of the broken dish conductor/ethernet transformer.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 7, 2023

A quick note on the TRENDnet TC-NTP1:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08B46PMV3

It measures the two ethernet channels separately, so when I put it in my system with blue/green pairs swapped it gets mismatched channels. It still works, but it breaks the StarLink antenna data connection; my router reports that the WAN cable is not connected. It does seem to be more accurate on wattage than an inline NF-488 (compared to the DC port measurements from the NF-488). It would probably not work at all with the McCown setup (because the two channels have no net current flow each). Bottom line is it is probably not the right product for this thread. It does apparently manage to identify 802.3bt, however it is not able to get the StarLink router to offer power most likely because it draws power from the PSE and the router only offers 2.8V or so at startup.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Feb 7, 2023 via email

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Feb 7, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 7, 2023

@morehardware: Would it not be because the Dishy always engages the motors when you plug in as it boots up.

This is my best guess too. My second best guess is that it fires up the antenna array trying to find all the satellites. If it is the motors that is an inductive load and it is pretty much certain that the NF-488 is outputting VA, not W. This doesn't matter from the point of view of frying the ethernet transformers; that depends on the amperage, but the currents I've seen are well within the range the Tycon supports. Since the peak seems to happen around 30s after boot it may be the cause of your problem.

I can't find any wisdom online about using a switching PSU with an inductive load. There is lots of stuff about switching the load itself of course, but I'm sure the antenna is set up to deal correctly with that. I also don't know from my experiments what the true maximum load, minimum voltage and maximum amperage are. Today's exciting job is to wire one of these into the power supply:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BGPG9NVR

This has minimum/maximum readouts with sub-second sampling; apparently below 0.4s. It's main display is an "instantaneous" reading, actually the average over the last 0.4s but it retains averages since start-up as well.

@WIMMPYIII
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@morehardware: Would it not be because the Dishy always engages the motors when you plug in as it boots up.

This is my best guess too. My second best guess is that it fires up the antenna array trying to find all the satellites. If it is the motors that is an inductive load and it is pretty much certain that the NF-488 is outputting VA, not W. This doesn't matter from the point of view of frying the ethernet transformers; that depends on the amperage, but the currents I've seen are well within the range the Tycon supports. Since the peak seems to happen around 30s after boot it may be the cause of your problem.

I can't find any wisdom online about using a switching PSU with an inductive load. There is lots of stuff about switching the load itself of course, but I'm sure the antenna is set up to deal correctly with that. I also don't know from my experiments what the true maximum load, minimum voltage and maximum amperage are. Today's exciting job is to wire one of these into the power supply:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BGPG9NVR

This has minimum/maximum readouts with sub-second sampling; apparently below 0.4s. It's main display is an "instantaneous" reading, actually the average over the last 0.4s but it retains averages since start-up as well.

It would be awesome to have these numbers documented. Warm boot up, sub 0 boot up, boot up simulating ice or physical block resisting the motor. Heater pre heat, heater auto. Heater off then back on after deep freeze.

@WIMMPYIII
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I would be nice to have something that could to an actual log.
Saw this, i don't know of there are any cheaper options available.
https://powerwerx.com/west-mountain-radio-pwrcheck-plus-usb

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 7, 2023

@WIMMPYIII; there is this too:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I2XI8P6

But, yeah, the dataloggers seem to be expensive. My Fluke 189 can log one channel (pretty much just logging A is sufficient) but I don't have the dongle/FlukeView sw. IRC my oscilloscope has some support for a serial connection and it has two channels. For the moment I'm logging by eye. This is what I have so far, just using the NF-488. First column is with it in in-line PoE mode, second is measuring the DC port to the Tycon. It has no min/max and the numbers change pretty fast. I'm tempted just to take a time lapse series of photographs, or a movie :-)

StarLink antenna power consumption    
Tester NF-488 NF-488 DC
Boot 0~15s 15W 2-7W
Boot 15s+ 20-82W 15-90W
Boot around 30s for several s 82W 80W
After boot 20-60W 15-80W
External temperature (celsius) -1C -1C
With pre-heat 55-81W  
Snowmelt no change  

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Feb 7, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 7, 2023

I think disconnecting the motors might be a lower draw … can you test again with motors unplugged ?

0.35A, 16.8W flat after stowing. No detectable power/current increase using the NF-488 while stowing or while unstowing. The NF-488 readings jump around continuously while the dish is unstowed. I'm not going to take the antenna apart; if something goes wrong with it I want to be able to ask StarLink for a replacement. Curiously I got the replacement router today and they didn't ask for an RMA of the old one, presumably it is as cheap and unrepairable as it looks. So I need to test that as well then I'll put the new tester inline after that, along with data logging the startup costs with a camera. With any luck the output will be more stable, if not it may be necessary to use an oscilloscope to make sense of the power draw.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 9, 2023

Here's the current consumption in A for the first five minutes. The horizonal axis is seconds; blue is the average every 5s and orange should be the maximum in the same period (Fluke 189 normal min-max). Note that the two lines come from different boots:

image

I've got average values out to 1200s; twenty minutes, but it's just more of the same.

Here's another boot but showing the average current over each 1s period for the first three minutes:

image

The voltage delivered by the PSU is in the same range as above; within 0.5V of 48V. The PSU is a 3A PSU so isn't near the limit. I got these numbers using the data logging of a Fluke 189, typing them into Excel by hand. The "high precision watt meter and power analyzer turned out to be not very useful. It records a peak current of 14A as soon as it starts up... This was worrying so I used the fast min-max on the Fluke 189 to check the inrush; it was actually 6A!

The problem was that I was powering up/down by pulling the barrel connector on the DC (48V) side. DO NOT DO THIS! It causes a massive inrush. The Fluke fast min-max samples across a time of something like 250us, but all the same that kind of current could cause sparking and maybe damage something. The antenna magnetics are apparently some kind of custom Würth Elektronik 4PPoE++ device; they don't list the part number but other magnetics in the series can go up to 1500mA/pair (per centre tap); so that's a 3A/150W supply. All the same 6A is too much.

I changed my methodology to powering up/down on the AC side; pull the plug on the PSU. This results in a soft start; fast min-max does not register a surge. The initial startup current is around 55mA for the first 5s, it then jumps to around 150mA for the next 30s then goes to the highs seen immediately afterward; 1A at 38s 1.5A at 45s. The long term average is 700mA but as can be seen from the first graph it swaps between around 600mA and 900mA for intervals of maybe 30s.

To get wattages at the PSE multiply by 48. At the PD, the antenna, there will be a 75ft/18AWG drop forward and back; four 24AWG 7/32 conductors in parallel have the same cross-section as 1 18AWG 7/26. The total resistance is about 0.9ohm, so assume 1.5V drop at the PD at 1.5A; multiply by 46.5

This is without pre-heat but the pre-heat didn't seem to add more than 0.25A. Everything seems to be well within the rating of the router PoE; 2A at 48V. I don't know where all this stuff about massive power requirements comes from, maybe the V1 and V2 dishes? Certainly the rectangular dish (V3) does not need more than 96W at the PSE, i.e. more than 2A, whatever the custom magnetics in the dish do.

I also ran the system from boot with fast min-max on the Fluke 189. This gave me an average over an hour of 0.7A and a transient peak of 3.4A. Bear in mind that this is a transient; it's coming out of the PSE capacitor which, as my do not do this above demonstrates is perfectly capable of delivering 6A in a single transient. There does always seem to be a transient in the first minute; presumably the 45s peak above. It varies between boots, one gave me 2.98A the other 3.34A. There was a second transient after about 17m of 3.39A so my assumption is that these transients happen irregularly. I suspect the dish should have bigger capacitors to avoid these transient current surges from the PSE.

@WIMMPYIII
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Here's the current consumption in A for the first five minutes. The horizonal axis is seconds; blue is the average every 5s and orange should be the maximum in the same period (Fluke 189 normal min-max). Note that the two lines come from different boots:

image

I've got average values out to 1200s; twenty minutes, but it's just more of the same.

Here's another boot but showing the average current over each 1s period for the first three minutes:

image

The voltage delivered by the PSU is in the same range as above; within 0.5V of 48V. The PSU is a 3A PSU so isn't near the limit. I got these numbers using the data logging of a Fluke 189, typing them into Excel by hand. The "high precision watt meter and power analyzer turned out to be not very useful. It records a peak current of 14A as soon as it starts up... This was worrying so I used the fast min-max on the Fluke 189 to check the inrush; it was actually 6A!

The problem was that I was powering up/down by pulling the barrel connector on the DC (48V) side. DO NOT DO THIS! It causes a massive inrush. The Fluke fast min-max samples across a time of something like 250us, but all the same that kind of current could cause sparking and maybe damage something. The antenna magnetics are apparently some kind of custom Würth Elektronik 4PPoE++ device; they don't list the part number but other magnetics in the series can go up to 1500mA/pair (per centre tap); so that's a 3A/150W supply. All the same 6A is too much.

I changed my methodology to powering up/down on the AC side; pull the plug on the PSU. This results in a soft start; fast min-max does not register a surge. The initial startup current is around 55mA for the first 5s, it then jumps to around 150mA for the next 30s then goes to the highs seen immediately afterward; 1A at 38s 1.5A at 45s. The long term average is 700mA but as can be seen from the first graph it swaps between around 600mA and 900mA for intervals of maybe 30s.

To get wattages at the PSE multiply by 48. At the PD, the antenna, there will be a 75ft/18AWG drop forward and back; four 24AWG 7/32 conductors in parallel have the same cross-section as 1 18AWG 7/26. The total resistance is about 0.9ohm, so assume 1.5V drop at the PD at 1.5A; multiply by 46.5

This is without pre-heat but the pre-heat didn't seem to add more than 0.25A. Everything seems to be well within the rating of the router PoE; 2A at 48V. I don't know where all this stuff about massive power requirements comes from, maybe the V1 and V2 dishes? Certainly the rectangular dish (V3) does not need more than 96W at the PSE, i.e. more than 2A, whatever the custom magnetics in the dish do.

I also ran the system from boot with fast min-max on the Fluke 189. This gave me an average over an hour of 0.7A and a transient peak of 3.4A. Bear in mind that this is a transient; it's coming out of the PSE capacitor which, as my do not do this above demonstrates is perfectly capable of delivering 6A in a single transient. There does always seem to be a transient in the first minute; presumably the 45s peak above. It varies between boots, one gave me 2.98A the other 3.34A. There was a second transient after about 17m of 3.39A so my assumption is that these transients happen irregularly. I suspect the dish should have bigger capacitors to avoid these transient current surges from the PSE.

That is where the mystery is, as 100w at 48v will not run reliably. And will not run at all much past 200ft. But 52v 2.88a will run perfectly at 330ft. Perhaps the factor is less the heater and more the motor? Motor could be hitting gear spots with more resistance causing micro spikes in power. Look at video cards in a PC, you can have a power supply with way higher average watts then it's requirement and yet you can still have problems with it not handling spikes when another brand can have lower average watts but does fine as it handles spikes better.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

That is where the mystery is, as 100w at 48v will not run reliably. And will not run at all much past 200ft. But 52v 2.88a will run perfectly at 330ft.

You need to log the failures as @morehardware did; their system failure did not depend on "watts" or "feet", rather the nature of the PSU. That failure seem to correspond to the high average current right at the start. I've not seen failures with my 48V PSU, even using the StarLink cable. Clearly different PSUs have different characteristics. StarLink sell a 150ft cable for use with a 96W 48V PSE.

It's entirely believable that the very short transients are sufficient to bring down the system if the PSU does not have capacitance to buffer the transient! Step down transformers necessarily have BFCs, as they say, to deal with the relatively low frequency of the supply; 120Hz or 100Hz. I haven't seen a teardown of the StarLink router which gave the characteristics of the capacitors in the PSE.

Classic power supply is to run the high voltage as close to the point of delivery as possible, so even though the StarLink 75ft cable only offers an ohm of resistance (assuming I got my arithmetic right) it's still always possible to run feeder mains voltage cable with any underground CAT5e+ cable to a PSU in an outdoor box. This is better than trying PoE over arbitrary distances, there are simply fewer engineering challenges. At least in the US it meets the code requirements just so long as there is only one outlet at the end of the feeder; it's not even necessary to earth it at the end though I have done so in the past and probably would in this hypothetical case.

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morehardware commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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Hi, I've replaced my POE after burning up the Tycon. I now have the McCown POE. Connectivity/wiring checks out perfectly using 23AWG cables and 56V 3A DC-DC converter. - Starlink Dish Neutrik through hull connector Lightning Arrester McCown POE Peplink router. Yes, I know I don't need swapped pins with the McCown, but the cables were built for the Tycon. So I've jumpered the McCown to act like the Tycon (+ 1,2,4,5, - 3,6,7,8). Starlink is working with the unmodified cable and Starlink router, using AC power, of course. - network and statistics are available in the app when I connect to SL router wifi. Here's the tricky bit: - with or without bypass mode turned on,& using the POE, - my Peplink router won't recognize that an ethernet cable is connected. It sometimes shows "Connecting..." and sometimes "No Cable Detected". (see attached screenshots) Possible causes: a) dishy is not powering up? - I purchased the Starlink ethernet adapter, and inserted it into the stock setup. So I'm using the SL router for power. Peplink is still showed "Connecting...", forever. b) Peplink router cannot work with data or phy layer of dishy? - I switched to a different WAN device in place of the dishy (a Mikrotick GrooveA) and the Peplink router connects and uses it immediately. - As noted above, with stock SL power, the Peplink won't connect. c) data is not flowing through the custom cables+POE+lightning arrester? - I've inserted both a Tycon and a McCown POE as a passive coupler into the working alternate WAN arrangement above. Both passed data just fine. - I've used a commercial cable to connect from SL ethernet adapter <> Peplink router. Still not connecting. Any thoughts?

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Sorry I am struggling to get my head around your setup. If you kept the wiring the same as for the tycon but switched the jumpers to match it the power would be correct but your data would be crossed. Just crimp 658b and set the 800-gige pins to the 4 corners accordingly and see if that fixes it.

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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This wiring: - Starlink Dish Neutrik through hull connector Lightning Arrester McCown POE Peplink router. is the standard setup for a Tycon POE. It has two connectors with swapped pins, with the result that it is unswapped (only one connector with swapped pins would create the situation you envision, with swapped data). Furthermore, now that I've tested with - Starlink Dish Starlink ethernet adapter <> Starlink router ^-- Peplink router I have the same result ("connnecting....")

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 12:42 PM WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: @.* commented on this gist. ------------------------------ Hi, I've replaced my POE after burning up the Tycon. I now have the McCown POE. Connectivity/wiring checks out perfectly using 23AWG cables and 56V 3A DC-DC converter. - Starlink Dish Neutrik through hull connector Lightning Arrester McCown POE Peplink router. Yes, I know I don't need swapped pins with the McCown, but the cables were built for the Tycon. So I've jumpered the McCown to act like the Tycon (+ 1,2,4,5, - 3,6,7,8). Starlink is working with the unmodified cable and Starlink router, using AC power, of course. - network and statistics are available in the app when I connect to SL router wifi. Here's the tricky bit: - with or without bypass mode turned on,& using the POE, - my Peplink router won't recognize that an ethernet cable is connected. It sometimes shows "Connecting..." and sometimes "No Cable Detected". (see attached screenshots) Possible causes: a) dishy is not powering up? - I purchased the Starlink ethernet adapter, and inserted it into the stock setup. So I'm using the SL router for power. Peplink is still showed "Connecting...", forever. b) Peplink router cannot work with data or phy layer of dishy? - I switched to a different WAN device in place of the dishy (a Mikrotick GrooveA) and the Peplink router connects and uses it immediately. - As noted above, with stock SL power, the Peplink won't connect. c) data is not flowing through the custom cables+POE+lightning arrester? - I've inserted both a Tycon and a McCown POE as a passive coupler into the working alternate WAN arrangement above. Both passed data just fine. - I've used a commercial cable to connect from SL ethernet adapter <> Peplink router. Still not connecting. Any thoughts? … <#m_5425950872894804033_> — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4466945 or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMHP6UQCL5AIKFPSJWDWWZMLHBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub . Sorry I am struggling to get my head around your setup. If you kept the wiring the same as for the tycon but switched the jumpers to match it the power would be correct but your data would be crossed. Just crimp 658b and set the 800-gige pins to the 4 corners accordingly and see if that fixes it. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://gist.github.com/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee#gistcomment-4467108 or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU7AEMHYBDGR35PB2HRIKZDWWZ4YXBFKMF2HI4TJMJ2XIZLTSKBKK5TBNR2WLJDHNFZXJJDOMFWWLK3UNBZGKYLEL52HS4DFQKSXMYLMOVS2I5DSOVS2I3TBNVS3W5DIOJSWCZC7OBQXE5DJMNUXAYLOORPWCY3UNF3GS5DZVRZXKYTKMVRXIX3UPFYGLK2HNFZXIQ3PNVWWK3TUUZ2G64DJMNZZDAVEOR4XAZNEM5UXG5FFOZQWY5LFVEYTCNBSGQ2TCMRTU52HE2LHM5SXFJTDOJSWC5DF . You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub .

Do you have another basic router you can test with other then the peplink to rule it out as a factor? Or a switch to put between.

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

my Peplink router won't recognize that an ethernet cable is connected. It sometimes shows "Connecting..." and sometimes "No Cable Detected". (see attached screenshots)

The screen shots aren't there, so far as I can see. This is a cable continuity problem; "no cable connected" means one or other pair is intermittent or open circuit or maybe the channel pairs are swapped.

In this case test end-to-end, or rather end-to-middle. I.e. use an ethernet cable connector from the Neutrik to the RJ45 that goes into the McCown and make sure it's showing the right connection. In this case that is 1-2, 7-8 straight through and 3-6/4-5 swapped; the tester needs to be one of the ones that shows the actual connections, not just pass/fail. Then check from the McCown data in/out RJ45 back to the RJ45 that goes to the router; the connections should be identical to those on the other side. A simply way of doing this in one shot is to take the RJ45's that go into the McCown and plug them into an ethernet pass-through connector. Then the two ends (Neutrik-router) should show straight through. The shield should be continuous in all cases.

Most likely this will be fine; if it isn't fix the problem by testing segments of the link. My original design was like yours; I swapped blue/green pairs before and after the PoE. I came to the conclusion that I don't like this because the wiring of the PoE connections to the antenna is just plain deadly for any normally wired passive PD so I am moving to swap blue/green as soon as possible out of the antenna (that would be the cable to the Neutrik in your case) then back again immediately after the data in/out port of the injector. That's just so much safer.

You can also check the McCown jumper setup; for some reason mine was shipped with the StarLink power arrangement so it had to be changed for "normal". If you plug the McCown in with the PSU disconnected then use a tester on RJ45s at each end (e.g. plug the end RJ45 into the RJ45 port on the NF-488 and do a continuity test) you should see each pair shorted. If you pull all four jumpers off the McCown that should be the only shorts. With the jumpers in the correct positions IRC 1236 should be shorted together along with 4578 (so both pairs are connected in each channel). Once again don't quote me on this - check very carefully!

If you have a good straight-through connection all the way then you need to suspect that the SPX connector into the antenna is fried. This is what happened to my original 75ft cable; I've split and tested the thing all the way back to within 10cm of the connector and orange is shorted (30ohm) to ground, apparently somewhere inside the connector at the cable end. My test kit consists of a broken open StarLink ethernet dongle with the cable cut and an RJ45 plug crimped onto the thick wires. I can plug the SPX connector from the antenna end into this then take the RJ45s on the two ends and do a continuity/cable test. Once again the connection should be straight through in your setup; in mine it is too but that is because I have both RJ45s with blue pair/green pair swaps.

I had cabling problems all the time I was doing this; my error mostly. I found that I can verify the cable setup correctness by plugging the RJ45 that goes into the router into a switch. If everything is wired correctly the switch detects a 1000MBit connection to the antenna about 5s after the power is connected. In fact the router can then be plugged into the switch and it should all work; the switch gives you access to 192.168.0.0/16 so it's possible to see what is out there...

You can also check the resistance of each pair while connected to the antenna with a suitable breakout RJ45 and testing with the PSE disconnected. This helps if there is some poor connection in there. I can't find the core resistances of the Wurtz electromagnetics but you should see each pair with a resistance just a few ohms. When I measured I was seeing maybe three ohms across correctly connected pairs. You should also see a low resistance between the two pairs corresponding to + and the two corresponding to - and around 30kohm between + and -

  • I purchased the Starlink ethernet adapter, and inserted it into the stock setup. So I'm using the SL router for power. Peplink is still showed "Connecting...", forever.

That sounds exactly like my original problem! My 75ft cable antenna connector was fried and the router was fried. With a new cable, a new dongle and the original router I had an internet connection but no ethernet on the dongle. Somehow the short in the SPX connector had killed something in the router that makes the dongle work. Once again plug the RJ45 from the dongle into a switch and see if the lights come on. It took me about 2 weeks to persuade StarLink customer support to send me a new router. At the end I'd already bought a new cable and they didn't respond to my request to refund that cost.

The SPX connector is pretty much garbage. In my case I plugged it in in summer and it failed in winter. I can only assume that the very small amount of water vapour in the sealed chamber that is created when the plug is inserted condensed and shorted enough out to fry the plug. The jack in the mast can apparently be pried out; I'm very tempted to pull it out, cut it off and solder cable directly to it with a swapped RJ45 at the end.

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

the hAP is operating in Bridge mode, between WAN and WiFi. the WAN port status is "Link OK, running, not slave", but no significant traffic is flowing over this port.

Connect to the WiFi then connect to http://192.168.100.1 (HTTP, not HTTPS). This will give you the antenna web page. Go to Settings/Advanced/Debug Data, scroll down to "DISH" then scroll down even further until you find "EthSpeedMbps"; it should be 1000, but if there is a cable wiring problem it still works but at 100Mbps or maybe lower. I had orange-white disconnected on an RJ45 jack and I got 100... The debug data can be copied by clicking on the weird pages icon at the top right; this makes it easier to read.

You may need to add a static route to 192.168.100.x on your router to get to the page, though it will probably work just changing your machine IP to 192.168.100.42

EDIT: for that matter, given that there are four LAN ports, just plug both the StarLink and the Peplink router into two of the LAN ports (in bridge mode they should all be LAN ports, but to be safe use the ones that are marked as such.) The MikroTik:

https://mikrotik.com/product/RB962UiGS-5HacT2HnT

is just a switch in that mode and if the switch can get packets in it should have no problem sending them out to the router.

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

I measure any of (1,2,3,6) to any of (4,5,7,8) as 3.4 to 3.6 ohms, on cable connected only to dishy.

That's correct if the cable is not swapped, i.e. you are checking the surge-suppressor connection, not the jack to the McCown (since you put the swap between the two). On regular PoE wiring groups (1245) and (3678) are connected together (via the centre taps of the electromagnetics, and ideally some diodes). In either case the resistance between conductors from each of the two groups should be the PoE signature resistance, I measured it at around 30k.

I no longer have any switches :(

A bridge is a switch and the two LAN ports on the Peplink are too. I'm suspicious of ethernet channel 1 (1236, unswapped) because the Peplink ports are apparently only 10/100Mbps, so they only use channel 1. Hence my suggestion to check the debug data and to try dish->MikroTik->Peplink

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

I very briefly got access from PC<>SL ethernet adapter<>Dishy with 2nd SL router and original cable. 40Mbps Up/.04 Mbps down. I could see two devices (PC and cell phone) attached via my cellphone Starlink app. Then the app showed 0 devices attached and all data stopped! Now the app shows my cell phone attached, but not the PC.

There are three ways of getting information from the dish; the router if it is connected to the dish, 192.168.100.1 (dishy.starlink.com) which may not work if the StarLink router is connected (so far as I can determine) and, most useful in this case, the StarLink app on your cell connected via the internet; not via the StarLink router.

The latter connects to the antenna via the satellite. No working local network and no StarLink router required. It should display "ONLINE" and the debug data ("THIS DEVICE") should show "Non-StarLink IP address", though if your are connected to the internet via the dish it will show "Starlink IP address". At this point you can "COPY DEBUG DATA" and paste it into something useful, like an email. This is the only way other than 192.168.100.1 of getting the full debug data; the StartLink App displays a sanitised version and it has to be copied out of the app.

Even so the only information in the debug data about the local connection is the speed of the connection.

I can see how if Dishy won't provide any IP to my PC, it won't with a DHCP-configured WAN port on a router, either.

The dish does provide an IPv4 to the router; it doesn't need to be statically configured. I believe it is using DHCP but it's supplying a CGNAT address; the address it provides is the one on the internet side of the gateway. It may well be that there is only one of those per antenna and that it just gets bridged across the antenna, indeed that seems most likely.

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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

I used a GL.iNET Slate (AR750S) in Access Point network mode (basically a bridge mode).

The AR750S also has 10/100/1000 ports, like both Mikrotiks.

Dishy<SL original cable>SL ethernet adapter<>SL Router #2 
                              ^--<eth cable>GL.iNET router<eth cable>Peplink router

The images you posted aren't coming through but I assume this didn't work. It's triple NAT; SL Router #2 isn't in bridge mode so SL Router #2 is offering DHCP in the 192.168.1.0/24 network and it offers it on the ethernet adapter too. The AP is irrelevant; the Peplink gets some random 192.168.1.x IPv4 on its WAN port (this should show up in the Peplink management pages) and tries to add a third layer of NAT to that.

There's a point of failure with the Peplink but it's a failure in a far simpler system where the Peplink is connected directly to the dish. If you want the StarLink router in the picture for power and, more important, customer support put SL#2 into bypass mode and use the above system including the GL.iNET router, at least to start with, to make sure you get 1000Mbps connection lights on the GL.iNet. If you do you should get a Peplink connection that works or at least fails without complaining about broken cables.

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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torrmundi commented Feb 10, 2023 via email

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jbowler commented Feb 10, 2023

ethSpeedMbps: 100, in three different status snapshots.

At least one of the eight conductors is broken or shorted, or, worse, the magnetics inside the antenna are damaged. The fault is intermittent. That's better; it suggests a fried connector which from what you have said would have to be the dish jack or the cable dish-end plug. I suggest connecting Dish->latest official StarLink cable->StarLink Router#2, copying the debug data and editing out everything except the ethernet speed, which will apparently be 100 but should be 1000, then opening a customer support ticket, or reopening the one that got you SL#2 and demanding a fix. If they haven't sent you a new cable yet they will, eventually.

The traditional cable-guy approach is to walk round the connectors and wiggle the wires going into and coming out of them. Sooner or later the problem becomes non-intermittent. If you can repro the 100 speed with the stock kit then my experience with the stock StarLink kit is that a connector is fried. I saw several (3 or 4) stress points in the 75ft cable and I stripped out each of those until I was left with the connector and 10cm of cable. It was also a double failure; when the connector on the end of the cable fried replacing the cable wasn't enough, the router had to go too.

If you don't want to deal with Customer Support and assuming the 100 problem exists in the stock kit you could try cleaning out the connectors. I did this but have so far been unable to remove the (30 ohm) short in the plug hence my previous comments about removing the connectors from the antenna end.

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 15, 2023

well, i followed the instructions here with swapped connector from the dishy cable to the Tycon, then the swapped connector to a normal t568b to the router, and nothing happens when i plug it all in. i've got a power switch on a 24v->48v boost transformer which can push 250w. that unit does actually light up, but nothing happens to the dish when i plug it in. no ethernet light goes on on the router port. any ideas?

@morehardware
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I think I figured it out. These connectivity problems had to do with power and POE. In typical POE applications the switch injects DC 48V that after 100 meters transmitting, drops the voltage down to DC 39V which can still satisfied the requirement. The Starlink POE need way more juice than typical POE devices. I got my configurable high power 12v powersupply and learned some things after finally adjusting it to a point where I got a consistent successful Starlink ip connection with speed. The power supply has three adjustments, Input power under voltage protection, current and output voltage. When you attach a 12 volt power supply, there is a yellow LED which indicated that the unit incoming voltage is set too high (default 24 volts). The under current (UV) pot is turned counterclockwise till the yellow light goes out. Next I adjusted the output voltage to 48 volts. I left the current as is since I dont have a good current meter. This initial setup failed like all my other setups. the computer would see the ethernet cable, try to handshake, then disconnect in a cyclic manner. Next I turned up the voltage to 56 volts and the same thing happened but in a longer interval. I watched the powers supply while it was cycling and noticed that the low voltage protection light would flash ever so slightly followed by a loss of connection to DISHY. Basically a warm reset. I think what is happening is that the power demand when the DISHY boots drops the input voltage to a point that Dishy reboots. I then adjusted the current higher but it kept cycling at the same interval. Then I adjusted the low voltage protection lower to the point where I no longer got an led flash when DISHY booted and that has led to a stable 12 volt setup.

This power supply worked when the Cheapo Chineese Bricks, and the Mean Well did not. It has no Documentation in the box but if you read the QUESTIONS AND REVIEWS you can ascertain how to adjust it. Some comments also claim success with the Starlink as well.

DC-DC Converter Module Boost DC Step Up Voltage Regulator CV Stabilizer Power Supply Module 10-60V to 12-97V 1500W 30A
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NM52VV5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s03?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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well, i followed the instructions here with swapped connector from the dishy cable to the Tycon, then the swapped connector to a normal t568b to the router, and nothing happens when i plug it all in. i've got a power switch on a 24v->48v boost transformer which can push 250w. that unit does actually light up, but nothing happens to the dish when i plug it in. no ethernet light goes on on the router port. any ideas?

Try with dishypowa or "800 gige poe apc"

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morehardware commented Feb 15, 2023 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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Uploading IMG_20230207_184808.jpg…

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Uploading PXL_20221221_045705930.jpg…

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Uploading Screenshot_20221107-143754.png…
This is the one that comes it a enclosure. Slightly different layout but pins are the same.

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morehardware commented Feb 15, 2023 via email

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 15, 2023

i'm using two 400Ah 12v LiFePO4 batteries in 24v series connection, their overall storage is more than 9kWh and i'm capable of pulling more than 400 watts from them without substantial V-drop. the 48v step-up is capable of putting out more than 200 watts, as determined with a load tester. i actually under-sized the fuse at first, and it blew right through the 5A (135w). it doesn't burn up a 7.5A fuse, which is 202 watts.

the one aspect of your suggestion that i feel has merit is the precision required for terminating the connectors. it's entirely possible that my RJ45 crimping tool is inadequate for shielded through-connector termination. i'll have a go at making a "normal" patch cable out of the many dozen feet i've got remaining of the starlink cable, and see if it works that way. if it doesn't, that'll help me determine where to go from there.

this crimping tool does alright with some of the more "supple" CAT5e cable i've terminated, but its blades also seem to be wearing out.

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Feb 15, 2023 via email

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 15, 2023

i plugged the Swapped -> T568B cable into something and the port didn't light up :( i wonder if my crimping tool isn't pushing hard enough

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 15, 2023

i actually under-sized the fuse at first, and it blew right through the 5A (135w). it doesn't burn up a 7.5A fuse

I think putting a fuse in the PoE supply (i.e. between the PSU and the PoE) is an extremely good idea. I just put a 2A fuse into my system, so I have a 2A APM (the small automobile size) blade fuse between the PSU:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08889XW1F rated 48V, 3A

and the Tycon injector:

https://www.tyconsystems.com/poe-inj-1000-wt rated 2.25A at up to 80V.

I haven't had any problems so far, but it hasn't been on long yet. Certainly no problems during the boot. I've also turned on "preheat" as a test, I think that maybe adds 250mA to the load.

The fuses I'm using are underrated - they are limited to 32V and this is a 48V system. Technically I should be using the classic cylindrical glass tube, such as a 20mm, but at my own risk I chose to use the blade fuses because I have a whole load of them for various amperages. Full specifications of APM fuses are also readily available:

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electrical-circuit-protection/fuses/bussmann-series-supplemental-fuses/automotive-blade-type/bus-ele-ds-2048-atm-series.pdf

The important thing here is that I put a 2A fuse into a circuit that I know is limited to 2A continuous and which, by experiment (with preheat/snowmelt off) I also know doesn't take even 1.5A for more than 1 second continuous. You can see from the Eaton specification that with this fuse (well, at least if it was made by Eaton...) for the 2A fuse to fuse in 1 second the average current would have to be about 3.4A and I know that the 3.4A transient draw occurs for a lot less than 1s; more than 250uS but certainly less than 1s.

@WIMMPYIII
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i actually under-sized the fuse at first, and it blew right through the 5A (135w). it doesn't burn up a 7.5A fuse

I think putting a fuse in the PoE supply (i.e. between the PSU and the PoE) is an extremely good idea. I just put a 2A fuse into my system, so I have a 2A APM (the small automobile size) blade fuse between the PSU:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08889XW1F rated 48V, 3A

and the Tycon injector:

https://www.tyconsystems.com/poe-inj-1000-wt rated 2.25A at up to 80V.

I haven't had any problems so far, but it hasn't been on long yet. Certainly no problems during the boot. I've also turned on "preheat" as a test, I think that maybe adds 250mA to the load.

The fuses I'm using are underrated - they are limited to 32V and this is a 48V system. Technically I should be using the classic cylindrical glass tube, such as a 20mm, but at my own risk I chose to use the blade fuses because I have a whole load of them for various amperages. Full specifications of APM fuses are also readily available:

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electrical-circuit-protection/fuses/bussmann-series-supplemental-fuses/automotive-blade-type/bus-ele-ds-2048-atm-series.pdf

The important thing here is that I put a 2A fuse into a circuit that I know is limited to 2A continuous and which, by experiment (with preheat/snowmelt off) I also know doesn't take even 1.5A for more than 1 second continuous. You can see from the Eaton specification that with this fuse (well, at least if it was made by Eaton...) for the 2A fuse to fuse in 1 second the average current would have to be about 3.4A and I know that the 3.4A transient draw occurs for a lot less than 1s; more than 250uS but certainly less than 1s.

It's pretty impressive that it can cook 135w fuse.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 15, 2023

@WIMMPYIII : It's pretty impressive that it can cook 135w fuse.

What can cook a "135W" fuse and what is a "135W" fuse; fuses have amperages(A) and fuse times(s).

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 16, 2023

i guess the voltage across pins 1 and 8 should be there even when nothing's plugged in, right? if so, i think this Tycon is DOA because it is not putting out any Voltage.

@WIMMPYIII
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i guess the voltage across pins 1 and 8 should be there even when nothing's plugged in, right? if so, i think this Tycon is DOA because it is not putting out any Voltage.

Or something got shorted.

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 16, 2023

i had nothing plugged in, so there's no shorts - the LED for the tycon is on, indicating it has power. if there's any short, it's inside the tycon itself. that would explain why it pulled more than 5 amps.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Feb 17, 2023 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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Why can't GitHub handle image posts. They never come through.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 17, 2023

@bghira said:

i'm using two 400Ah 12v LiFePO4 batteries in 24v series connection, their overall storage is more than 9kWh and i'm capable of pulling more than 400 watts from them without substantial V-drop. the 48v step-up is capable of putting out more than 200 watts, as determined with a load tester. i actually under-sized the fuse at first, and it blew right through the 5A (135w). it doesn't burn up a 7.5A fuse, which is 202 watts.

You've got the fuse in the wrong place. It should be between the boost circuit and the PoE. I'm amazed a 7.5A doesn't blow too. Putting it where you have it sees the inrush current to start up the boost converter and then it sees the inrush to start up the antenna. There's no doubt that the antenna can pull about 7A for a short period of time during startup; I avoided that in my setup by not hot-powering the Tycon but your boost converter can deliver 10 times the current of my 48V/3A PSU.

If it is the antenna inrush then I think you need to find a way to do a soft-start. My system survived that 7A inrush but I really don't think it's a good idea to let it happen. A current limiter would help:

https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/analogue_circuits/power-supply-electronics/current-limiter-circuit.php

Remember that I measured (almost) 7A from a 3A PSU. It is very likely that it was limited to 7A by the PSU; see the comments in the above article.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 17, 2023

Why can't GitHub handle image posts. They never come through.

Some of them do; I believe my Excel charts (PNG images) appeared fine, right? Log in to github, go to the post, edit and and simply drag'n'drop the image into the message. It is necessary to wait for the image to be uploaded to github.com; some of the previous posts with missing images (the links just point to the gist) seem to match the "uploading" display. It looks like the mail gateway for email responses doesn't work that well.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 17, 2023

Just because it's of interest (to me anyway), here are two PoE magnetics modules. The top one is new, the bottom one has been burned out.

Those were the Tycon modules, including the WTx that started smoking? The images did not come through; as I suggested above if you log in to github and edit the message you should be able to drop the images in. I'm interested in seeing the inside of a Tycon (WT or WTx), I only have one and it is in active service :-) These are the faceplates, as images, entered in github by drag'n'drop from the TyconPower website:

poe-inj-1000-wtx 4

That (above) is the WRONG one:

poe-inj-1000-wt 3

That's the right one. Please tell me if the images don't come through!

@torrmundi
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POE magnetics Link LP6062ANL 01
Ok, I am on the Github web site, rather than replying via gmail. Hope this comes through.

@WIMMPYIII
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POE magnetics Link LP6062ANL 01 Ok, I am on the Github web site, rather than replying via gmail. Hope this comes through.

This is the one that got burnt when cross wired?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 18, 2023

Ok, I am on the Github web site, rather than replying via gmail. Hope this comes through.

It came through. Meltdown. It also looks like the wires in the coils really did burn out.

Praying to the cockroach of electronics at this point that it's my Tycon that will burn out, not the magnetics in the dish :)

@morehardware
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WimpyIII, I have a McCown POE and hooked my power supply to it. But before plugging DIshy into the POE Side can you confirm the cable termination configs with the McCown jumpered like this. I set the pins as suggested (see pic) . From the explanation on this pin setup I think it means I can use a normal ethernet cable from the Data ONLY side to the router. Versus the Tycon required a swapped end from the POE to a T568B to the router. If I use the McCown POE with this pin setting, do I still need to terminate from the DISH a swapped end termination ? That swapped end would go into the POWER DATA side of the McCown. I believe you have a working setup with the McCown POE.

IMG-6217

@WIMMPYIII
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WimpyIII, I have a McCown POE and hooked my power supply to it. But before plugging DIshy into the POE Side can you confirm the cable termination configs with the McCown jumpered like this. I set the pins as suggested (see pic) . From the explanation on this pin setup I think it means I can use a normal ethernet cable from the Data ONLY side to the router. Versus the Tycon required a swapped end from the POE to a T568B to the router. If I use the McCown POE with this pin setting, do I still need to terminate from the DISH a swapped end termination ? That swapped end would go into the POWER DATA side of the McCown. I believe you have a working setup with the McCown POE.

IMG-6217

No swap with the McCown. Use 568B. The only reason for this swapping with the tycon is because you cannot change the power layout on it.
And the picture you have is the correct power layout for the dishy with jumpers on all 4 corners. You should be good to go.

@torrmundi
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Yes, burnt by crossed wires, from a McCown with wrong jumpers.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 19, 2023

For those who want to get rid of the motors this may help:

https://star-mountsystems.com/products/low-profile-flat-mount-for-rectangle-starlink-dishy

Read the instructions for installing the mount they sell; the pictures reveal a lot about the internals of the ethernet/PoE connection. I would be surprised if the 10-pin ethernet connector on the MB isn't just one of the standard ones. Personally I wouldn't remove the ferrite, it's unclear to me why they do that. It seems a simple connection to a waterproof RJ45 modular jack would solve all the problems of the oxidized/corroded SPX connector.

@petersticks
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Quick question… what is the best and proper way to connect the AC adapter to the McCown board? Just cut the cable and connect it?
Uploading image.jpg…

@WIMMPYIII
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Yes, sorry your picture isnt showing. If you are using a power pack style AC-DC with a lead plug already on it easiest way is to cut it off and crimp directly to whatever wire you are running to the injector or directly to the injector if you dont have any distance. I usually crimp to cat6 orange and brown + and green and blue - but mine are almost always 100ft or more to the injector and another 100-200ft up a tree.

@petersticks
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petersticks commented Feb 21, 2023

Yes, sorry your picture isnt showing. If you are using a power pack style AC-DC with a lead plug already on it easiest way is to cut it off and crimp directly to whatever wire you are running to the injector or directly to the injector if you dont have any distance. I usually crimp to cat6 orange and brown + and green and blue - but mine are almost always 100ft or more to the injector and another 100-200ft up a tree.

Thank you! Do I need to cut the wire before (exclude) or after (include) the ferrite bead? I cut it after and there is a center wire (positive) and shielded wire (negative) around that center one. Thanks again.

@WIMMPYIII
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On the reolink 52v the center is the positive and the outer wire is the ground. The ferrite I have done with and without and have not noticed any differences.

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 22, 2023

new router/cable showed up yesterday so i attempted to use the new router with the RJ45 splicing technique to reuse the existing cable end from the roof, it turns out, however, that the connector at the dishy end of the cable is just absolutely garbage. I don't understand, because I used dielectric grease when installing. It worked great for a while. Then suddenly stopped working.

Replacing the entire cable temporarily with the brand new one (proprietary, in-tact) it works properly.

this is a shame, but the next step for me is to just cut the proprietary connector out of the dishy and use RJ45 the whole way through.

@WIMMPYIII
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new router/cable showed up yesterday so i attempted to use the new router with the RJ45 splicing technique to reuse the existing cable end from the roof, it turns out, however, that the connector at the dishy end of the cable is just absolutely garbage. I don't understand, because I used dielectric grease when installing. It worked great for a while. Then suddenly stopped working.

Replacing the entire cable temporarily with the brand new one (proprietary, in-tact) it works properly.

this is a shame, but the next step for me is to just cut the proprietary connector out of the dishy and use RJ45 the whole way through.

That is what I would do.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 22, 2023

[T]he connector at the dishy end of the cable is just absolutely garbage.

Not just the plug, the jack/socket in the dish mast too. I couldn't work out what the problem was for several days until I eventually cut the dish-end plug off the cable and checked it carefully; the orange and orange/white conductors were both shorted to ground. I think I detailed the cleaning I did above (DeoxIt, WD40 contact cleaner, water hydrogen peroxide) and this was not sufficient to "unshort" the solid orange.

However the dish jack also shows extra resistance (about 2ohms) on the solid orange connector even after I cleaned it several times. My system is working with that. I cut the dish-end plug off a new cable and used Deoxit F5 on both the plug and the jack. Nevertheless I don't like having that extra 2 ohms. Sure it's only one conductor but it's a specific failure point and it should take 1/4 of the current, about 0.4A continuous as measured. It will take less because of the higher resistance, 6 ohms vs 4 ohms in the other conductors, but it's going to dissipate significant power at the oxidized contacts.

When it fails (I'm sure it will) I'll pry the jack out of the mast and do the same thing. The link I posted above shows how to pry the jack out of the end of the mast and it looks like there is going to be enough flex in the lead to cut the inline jack off and do a solder/heat shrink join on all eight conductors. Heat shrink tubing with glue is appropriate here because it will provide a waterproof connection. I'll probably use the heat shrink butt connectors with internal heat melt solder, they work pretty well, though I do twist the conductors together and put a drop of flux on them too.

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 22, 2023

yeah i already use the star-mount systems flat kit. but it doesn't encourage you to replace the proprietary jack (yet).

i opened up the very first router, the one that stopped outputting voltage of any kind, and found that it burned two or more of its pads out. the connector was no longer actually connected to the board. the tiny pads and wires that they're mounted through look rather inadequate.

same thing with the Tycon that i have that doesn't work. it has some pads blown out. in both cases for the SL router and the Tycon, the pads are gone. not just detached.

i would just get ahead of the issue and replace the crappy connector before it does greater damage.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 24, 2023

yeah i already use the star-mount systems flat kit. but it doesn't encourage you to replace the proprietary jack (yet).

If you've gone that far you've had access to the motherboard to disconnect the motor connector. The ethernet connector is in there too, just a 10-pin standard (I'm pretty sure) connector. Most likely 8 ethernet conductors plus two shield but the pictures I have aren't clear enough to be sure. Crimping a new connector with the StarLink cable and a new ferrite should allow the perfect solution. The StarLink cable seems pretty good, I believe it's the SPX connectors that are the problem.

I want to maximize my chances of getting a replacement from the StarLink customer support, when he comes back from his vacation. At this point that means preserving the connector even though I know it's damaged. At some point I will have to decide whether to just try to pull out the connector and solder it out of the way or to dremel the whole back off the dish. My inclination is to do the latter - I can flat mount it on my roof which, by design, points north-south and has about the optimal angle. I'll pull the MB connector and use some of the ~140ft of StarLink cable I have to wire it back to the PoE.

[I]n both cases for the SL router and the Tycon, the pads are gone. not just detached.

I haven't dremeled my defective router open yet. Just want to make sure the StarLink mgmt doesn't want it back. Even so mine failed gradually; disconnects over a period of several hours then permanent death. The problem might be caused by a short in the rectangular bit; a failed SPX connector at the antenna can certainly cause a Tycon or a McCown to blow out in this way because they are passive. The StarLink router PoE should be able to manage better but maybe it doesn't.

the ****** connector

I agree 110%

@torrmundi
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Oleg Kutkov has modded the rectangular dishy with an outdoor ethernet connector
See [https://olegkutkov.me/2022/03/07/reverse-engineering-of-the-starlink-ethernet-adapter/]
image

If you've gone that far you've had access to the motherboard to disconnect the motor connector. The ethernet connector is in there too, just a 10-pin standard (I'm pretty sure) connector. Most likely 8 ethernet conductors plus two shield but the pictures I have aren't clear enough to be sure. Crimping a new connector with the StarLink cable and a new ferrite should allow the perfect solution. The StarLink cable seems pretty good, I believe it's the SPX connectors that are the problem.

I want to maximize my chances of getting a replacement from the StarLink customer support, when he comes back from his vacation. At this point that means preserving the connector even though I know it's damaged. At some point I will have to decide whether to just try to pull out the connector and solder it out of the way or to dremel the whole back off the dish. My inclination is to do the latter - I can flat mount it on my roof which, by design, points north-south and has about the optimal angle. I'll pull the MB connector and use some of the ~140ft of StarLink cable I have to wire it back to the PoE.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 24, 2023

Oleg Kutkov has modded the rectangular dishy with an outdoor ethernet connector

I've been working to a large extent off the analysis Oleg posted; the link you quoted. However it doesn't contain the picture you posted. I have weatherproof connectors of that form and they can be used pretty easily in this application yet it is still necessary to drill a hole in the dish reverse. That looks like the wrong place to me because there is a big compartment around the mast entry point containing the motors; it's not enough to get into that compartment, it's necessary to get into the main compartment with the MB to do what I said.

@bghira
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bghira commented Feb 25, 2023

If you've gone that far you've had access to the motherboard to disconnect the motor connector. The ethernet connector is in there too, just a 10-pin standard (I'm pretty sure) connector. Most likely 8 ethernet conductors plus two shield but the pictures I have aren't clear enough to be sure. Crimping a new connector with the StarLink cable and a new ferrite should allow the perfect solution. The StarLink cable seems pretty good, I believe it's the SPX connectors that are the problem.

yeah i mentioned that already.

also, the shielding isn't really needed. neither is the ferrite core. the ferrite might cause bigger issues tbh.

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Feb 25, 2023 via email

@dreadlordchase
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dreadlordchase commented Feb 27, 2023

I'm looking to ditch the Starlink (rectangular dish) router all together and go with PoE injection. I'm going to use a DishyPowa so I'll just need a power supply. I've seen some linked but haven't been able to get any of them. I did find this one here that will take in 110/120vac and output 48vdc up to 3.13a. Seems like it should work well, but was hoping someone with a little more knowledge could tell me.

@WIMMPYIII
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Reolink 52v 150w used to be on Amazon for $35 but they are out of stock now. Here is one but you will have to get a us plug adapter.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004574962720.html

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 27, 2023

I'm going to use a DishyPowa so I'll just need a power supply. I've seen some linked but haven't been able to get any of them.

The one I linked to is (still) available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08889XW1F

There's a 2A version on the same page which should be just fine. The Reolink is grounded; the ground (earth) pin of the mains supply is connected to the V- on the output. This varies with PSUs, I don't know about the one that I'm using (above) but I have a separate ground for the dish - I have a surge protector between the dish and the Tycon PoE I'm using.

@WIMMPYIII
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I'm going to use a DishyPowa so I'll just need a power supply. I've seen some linked but haven't been able to get any of them.

The one I linked to is (still) available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08889XW1F

There's a 2A version on the same page which should be just fine. The Reolink is grounded; the ground (earth) pin of the mains supply is connected to the V- on the output. This varies with PSUs, I don't know about the one that I'm using (above) but I have a separate ground for the dish - I have a surge protector between the dish and the Tycon PoE I'm using.

If you are going to go that route I would at least get the 3a.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 27, 2023

If you are going to go that route I would at least get the 3a.

What is your reasoning?

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Feb 27, 2023

These cheap supplies cant keep up nearly what they are rated for. Most people doing DC to DC conversations are actually picking 6-8 amp units because they can better handle the constant lower amp draw.

@crdiaz324
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Has anyone been able to figure out how to power the High-Performance dish off of DC power? I am thinking of getting one, but I don't want to have to go out and buy an inverter just to power it up.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Mar 2, 2023

the High-Performance dish

Which one is that? This thread is about the rectangular dish (the V3, IRC); I don't think anyone has given any information about the newer StarLink offerings.

@WIMMPYIII
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the High-Performance dish

Which one is that? This thread is about the rectangular dish (the V3, IRC); I don't think anyone has given any information about the newer StarLink offerings.

He it talking about the $2500 HP. From what I have seen from it's performance it's not worth it. But there are some people on the Facebook SL hack group that have built DC conversations. I think they powered directly to the PCB pinouts inside the dish.

@torrmundi
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Remember I had the issue with Peplink BR1 Mini WAN port showing "No Cable Connected" when I used a POE and direct connection to Dishy (no SL router + Eth adapter)? Another telling symptom (thanks JBowler) is the exclusive reporting of ethSpeedMbps=100. I have now been able to connect Dishy <> PoE <> Peplink WAN and it works, as long as I set the WAN port speed below 1000Mbps. So 100Mbps half or full duplex and 10Mbps half or full duplex work fine. The setting is reached from dashboard, Wan Connection Status, Details, Physical Interface Settings, Port Speed. So I believe JBowler is correct in deducing that at least one of the four conductors in pair 3 and pair 4 paths has died within my Dishy. SpaceEx can see that there is a problem with ethernet connection speed and has sent me a new cable, new Eth adapter and (not yet received), a new router. None of which will solve this!

@WIMMPYIII
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@bghira
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bghira commented Mar 14, 2023

we're talking about hacking the wire and specs of the dishy on this gist. i know it's not my page, but can you not spam others with irrelevant youtube links? that just feels like advertising that service, which, honestly, who cares about it.

@WIMMPYIII
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we're talking about hacking the wire and specs of the dishy on this gist. i know it's not my page, but can you not spam others with irrelevant youtube links? that just feels like advertising that service, which, honestly, who cares about it.

Sorry to hurt your butt. I was just showing my application of the mod. Didn't realize it would be taken so offensively.

@bghira
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bghira commented Mar 14, 2023

it's not a discord server. it's a technical post. claiming that my "butt is hurt" is also a homophobic slur. that's actually the offensive part, so far. it was a polite request, which you're now lashing out at.

@WIMMPYIII
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it's not a discord server. it's a technical post. claiming that my "butt is hurt" is also a homophobic slur. that's actually the offensive part, so far. it was a polite request, which you're now lashing out at.

Wow...

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Apr 14, 2023

This just "appeared" on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Passive-Injector-Protection-Developed-pinout/dp/B0BX74T2T5

It appears to have the correct pinout, it requires an appropriate (48V) input source; several have been suggested above. It also needs grounding to provide protection against static accumulation. Normally the mains AC -> 48V buck converters do not connect either rail (+ or -) to ground, but all the capable ones seem to have a three pin power supply and the earth can be used so long as it isn't disconnected. IRC the US requirement is that the earthing circuit be hardwired.

Another approach with (maybe, read the spec sheet) surge protection but with the disadvantage that an MDI-X pin swap (not the MID one documented above) is required:

https://www.tyconsystems.com/tp-poe-hp-56g

That unit is, so far, unique among the ones I've read spec sheets for in that it has in-rush and overcurrent protection. That could be very important given the apparent massive inrush when power is first applied (16A?) and the periodic 3.4A very short term peak which AC mains buck converters handle (they have to handle a 100-120Hz supply) but may be the source of the problem with boost converters (which tend to use a much higher frequency).

The vendor of the first unit says that a version incorporating voltage conversion is in "R&D"; see the comments.

@Shangrila385
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Anyone selling a 250’ cable for starlink rectangular dish to modem. I would like to buy one already assembled that works.

@WIMMPYIII
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Anyone selling a 250’ cable for starlink rectangular dish to modem. I would like to buy one already assembled that works.

Where are you located?

@Shangrila385
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I am in Northern California usa

@Shangrila385
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In Northern California USA. The cable is semi exposed to weather. I was thinking of cat 6e direct burial because it is stronger. But I really don’t know what I need to make sure I have good signal and low resistance

@WIMMPYIII
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In Northern California USA. The cable is semi exposed to weather. I was thinking of cat 6e direct burial because it is stronger. But I really don’t know what I need to make sure I have good signal and low resistance

Message me on email so we don't highjack this thread. starlinktree@gmail.com

@dougbrouwer
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I've been trying to get my 12V conversion working reliably. I'm using what seems like the most common POE injector, the Tycon POE-INJ-1000-WT, wired as per several posts on the web. I've used both the 288 watt and the 192 watt versions of this type of 12V to 48V converter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B7WZGCM3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1. I'm using a variable power supply running at 12V while I get this going, before moving it to my boat.

The setup has worked fine for some period of time, maybe 6 hours, then quits. After the first time it quit, after checking everything I could check, I replaced the Tycon injector and that fixed it. In both of these setups I was using the 192 watt converter. Now it has quit again. I tried using the 288 watt converter, but that didn't change anything. I have another Tycon injector on the way, but even though they're cheap ($10 from Tycon), unless I just happened to get a couple of weak ones, replacing the injectors is not a long term solution.

So I have a couple of questions: Is there a good way to test that the injector is functional? Any thoughts on why my setup might be slowly frying the injector?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Apr 29, 2023

So I have a couple of questions: Is there a good way to test that the injector is functional?

The PoE testers I mentioned earlier can detect the passive PoE but the indications can be a little difficult to fathom, particularly if plugged directly into the Tycon because of the swapped wiring. Best is to make a breakout RJ45 cable - just a short length of CAT5e connected to an RJ45 (with the standard wiring) and the other end bare wire ends. Then you do these checks with the RJ45 plugged in to the Tycon PoE out:

  1. Without power to the Tycon check the resistance between each color pair. It should be around 1 ohm or a little less. Anything over a couple of ohms indicates a bad connection or blown ethernet magnetics in the Tycon.
  2. Without power to the Tycon validate the magnetics by using standard RJ45 cables and plugging one end into a switch, or anything with LEDs to indicate a satisfactory link and the other into a computer or any device with an RJ45 port (including another switch). If you don't get a link the magnetics are probably blown. If you use devices on both ends which can do gigabit ethernet the test is much better; you should get a gigabit connection through the Tycon.
  3. Now go back to the breakout cable and very carefully separate all 8 wires then plug the power in to the Tycon. Take great care not to short the wires! You should see 48V across any two conductions from different ethernet channels when the power is connected. EDIT: This wiring is the wrong one:Channel 1 (1,2,3,6 IRC, but check) should be the +48V and channel two (the other four conductors) should be the -48V, so {1,2,3,6} to {7,8,4,5} should measure 48V for each combination (1,7 1,8, 1,4 1,5, etc, etc. Using the wiring marked on the PoE injector itself; this refers to the RJ45 pins by number (often with a helpful diagram) - this is completely independent of how the RJ45 jack is wired. In both the standard wirings (T-568A and T-568B) and the "swapped" StarLink wiring the brown pair is attached to pins 7 and 8 of the RJ45 jack, so that's an easy double check. It's a bit tedious to do the test and the combinations but it is worth it.)

It is also possible to do a load test after (3) by using some load to verify that you can get 2A out of the setup, or to run a load tester as I think I described above.

The injector is passive. It doesn't use the power to do anything other than supply power on the PoE port so the channels can be tested without power. The power supply inside the Tycon is pretty basic so you can test it without any ethernet signals. This is why the above works.

Any thoughts on why my setup might be slowly frying the injector?

But is it fried? My own system drops out regularly but it is nothing to do with the PoE; what happens is that the dish gets an obstruction at the moment my router is trying to renew the DHCP lease from StarLink, this causes my router to permanently drop the connection until I pull out the RJ45 at the router and plug it back in again. It's a known problem (not necessarily StarLink's, since the DHCP dropout is pretty much unavoidable).

As for your setup it is certainly capable of frying the Tycon and maybe even the dish. The Tycon does not have any protection so connecting a hot PSU to it results in a significant, maybe massive, inrush of current until the dish converters are up to power. The short circuit protection in the boost converter may be enough to prevent damage, but who knows? If it were me I would use the 12->48 3A model; it should not be able to fry the Tycon unless something in your setup is continuously drawing 3A (or so) though the injector.

I can't see why the injector would end up damaged over time. I measured the current over a reasonably extended period (an hour or so) and saw peaks of 3.4A (as described above). Consequently if the injector is getting fried over time I would suspect that the boost converter is being erratic and sometimes delivering less than 48V. Because it is a DC boost converter the designer assumed that the 12V would be there all the time; it isn't designed to handle the 100-times-per-second dropout in the supply (input) voltage that happens with an AC converter. If your supply does drop out then it is possible that the Tycon will see repeated high inrush currents. You might test with a 12V battery (e.g. use a car jump starter, which should have enough capacity for close to 6 hours). If that works suspect a power supply issue.

It is very clear from everything that has been said that getting a DC-DC boost system to work is a lot more difficult than getting an AC-DC buck system to work. I have ideas about why this might be because of the differences between DC and AC PSUs but I'm just guessing. There must be an answer of course.

@WIMMPYIII
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So I have a couple of questions: Is there a good way to test that the injector is functional?

The PoE testers I mentioned earlier can detect the passive PoE but the indications can be a little difficult to fathom, particularly if plugged directly into the Tycon because of the swapped wiring. Best is to make a breakout RJ45 cable - just a short length of CAT5e connected to an RJ45 (with the standard wiring) and the other end bare wire ends. Then you do these checks with the RJ45 plugged in to the Tycon PoE out:

  1. Without power to the Tycon check the resistance between each color pair. It should be around 1 ohm or a little less. Anything over a couple of ohms indicates a bad connection or blown ethernet magnetics in the Tycon.
  2. Without power to the Tycon validate the magnetics by using standard RJ45 cables and plugging one end into a switch, or anything with LEDs to indicate a satisfactory link and the other into a computer or any device with an RJ45 port (including another switch). If you don't get a link the magnetics are probably blown. If you use devices on both ends which can do gigabit ethernet the test is much better; you should get a gigabit connection through the Tycon.
  3. Now go back to the breakout cable and very carefully separate all 8 wires then plug the power in to the Tycon. Take great care not to short the wires! You should see 48V across any two conductions from different ethernet channels when the power is connected. Channel 1 (1,2,3,6 IRC, but check) should be the +48V and channel two (the other four conductors) should be the -48V, so {1,2,3,6} to {7,8,4,5} should measure 48V for each combination (1,7 1,8, 1,4 1,5, etc, etc. It's a bit tedious to do the test but it is worth it.)

It is also possible to do a load test after (3) by using some load to verify that you can get 2A out of the setup, or to run a load tester as I think I described above.

The injector is passive. It doesn't use the power to do anything other than supply power on the PoE port so the channels can be tested without power. The power supply inside the Tycon is pretty basic so you can test it without any ethernet signals. This is why the above works.

Any thoughts on why my setup might be slowly frying the injector?

But is it fried? My own system drops out regularly but it is nothing to do with the PoE; what happens is that the dish gets an obstruction at the moment my router is trying to renew the DHCP lease from StarLink, this causes my router to permanently drop the connection until I pull out the RJ45 at the router and plug it back in again. It's a known problem (not necessarily StarLink's, since the DHCP dropout is pretty much unavoidable).

As for your setup it is certainly capable of frying the Tycon and maybe even the dish. The Tycon does not have any protection so connecting a hot PSU to it results in a significant, maybe massive, inrush of current until the dish converters are up to power. The short circuit protection in the boost converter may be enough to prevent damage, but who knows? If it were me I would use the 12->48 3A model; it should not be able to fry the Tycon unless something in your setup is continuously drawing 3A (or so) though the injector.

I can't see why the injector would end up damaged over time. I measured the current over a reasonably extended period (an hour or so) and saw peaks of 3.4A (as described above). Consequently if the injector is getting fried over time I would suspect that the boost converter is being erratic and sometimes delivering less than 48V. Because it is a DC boost converter the designer assumed that the 12V would be there all the time; it isn't designed to handle the 100-times-per-second dropout in the supply (input) voltage that happens with an AC converter. If your supply does drop out then it is possible that the Tycon will see repeated high inrush currents. You might test with a 12V battery (e.g. use a car jump starter, which should have enough capacity for close to 6 hours). If that works suspect a power supply issue.

It is very clear from everything that has been said that getting a DC-DC boost system to work is a lot more difficult than getting an AC-DC buck system to work. I have ideas about why this might be because of the differences between DC and AC PSUs but I'm just guessing. There must be an answer of course.

I have setup at least 100 of these both with ac-dc and dc-dc and have had 100% reliability. But I don't use tycons, I think they are junk compared to other alternatives.

And I never use 48v in most cases dishy end is getting undervolted with 48. I know the gen2 AP is 48 but it would be more reliable with slightly higher. I think 48 was done for cost savings not reliability.

@bghira
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bghira commented Apr 30, 2023

i had the same issue with the tycon. i tried a mccown but they're sensitive and i am pretty sure i sparked this one with a fat-fingered move where i accidentally brushed the shielded RJ45 connector up against something important - most likely an IEC. it was doing okay for a while after that, and even hit 190mbps but the next day it's limited to 10mbps.

currently i've given up on the idea of running it from purely 12v. it seems to work for some, but the heartache and expense and continually smelling burnt components just isn't sustainable or healthy. and i'm the type who usually refuses to give up until it works. i have a 1980 watt solar installation on my rooftop of my small house. was pretty frustrated with myself for shorting that McCown, as it took soo long to acquire.

@bghira
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bghira commented Apr 30, 2023

i will say the one thing i know is if you use the variable 1500w power supply from Amazon and tune it to 50v you'll have the best luck, as someone else had recommended. i followed that advice and that was the best. with the 388w or so, "heatsink resin style" transformer unit from Amazon that you're using, I just couldn't get any kind of reliable link from it, limiting to 1.5mbps or so. pretty abysmal.

@morehardware
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morehardware commented Apr 30, 2023 via email

@dougbrouwer
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Thanks Morehardware--Tycon makes a bunch of different PoE injectors. Is the cheap, POE-INJ-1000-WT that has been working for you, or are you using one of their more expensive models, and if so, which one?

Given experiences like yours, it's a mystery to me why swapping out the POE-INJ-1000-WT fixed my issue for a short time, and then failed, presumably, but not yet definitively, because of the injector again.

I've ordered one of the 1500W power supplies....

@bghira
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bghira commented Apr 30, 2023

well my Tycon was ruined by the Amazon cheap-ass PSU. when opening it up. the feet of the power module are separated from the PCB. they're not soldered very well and the heat pops them off.

@bghira
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bghira commented Apr 30, 2023

@dougbrouwer that's the one that'll work.

@dougbrouwer
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dougbrouwer commented Apr 30, 2023

"the feet of the power module are separated from the PCB."
Wow! That's pretty strange for a 130W rated device that carries a 3 year warranty.....
If Tycon doesn't replace mine under the warranty I'll open it up and report back.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented May 1, 2023

@dougbrouwer do you have any of the four connections to the buck converter connected (directly or indirectly) to ground? By "ground" I mean a structure of vehicle ground that part of the dish might be connected to? For example if the mast is grounded or the shielded cable from the dish. The Tycon shouldn't be connecting the shield to anything; it just passes the connection straight through, but if you have a surge suppressor inline or if you connect to a shielded port on the router that probably would.

@dougbrouwer
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any of the four connections to the buck converter connected (directly or indirectly) to ground?

Not any any way that's intentional. I'm simply using shielded RJ-45 connectors, and I'm being careful to connect the wire ground to the shield.

@dougbrouwer
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well my Tycon was ruined by the Amazon cheap-ass PSU. when opening it up.

@bghira What's the secret to opening up the Tycon injector? It's not obvious to me. Is it glued shut?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented May 2, 2023

any of the four connections to the buck converter connected (directly or indirectly) to ground?

Not any any way that's intentional. I'm simply using shielded RJ-45 connectors, and I'm being careful to connect the wire ground to the shield.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you manage to ground the PoE then it is quite possible that you will blow it.

@bghira
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bghira commented May 4, 2023

@dougbrouwer a dremel

@Shangrila385
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Shangrila385 commented May 5, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented May 5, 2023

Can anyone explain in layman terms how to make a cable to use on starlink that is 300’ long and will work without losing signal strength? The dish is being put on the roof of a high rise bldg. And cable dropped down a shaft to lower floor.

That's actually very easy assuming there is a weatherproof location with power within 150' (or, cheaper, 75') of the dish location. That's pretty much a cert for a highrise. You put the StarLink router in the weatherproof enclosure, connect it to the building supply and connect it to the dish using the standard StarLink cables and the standard (USD25) Ethernet Dongle also from StarLink. Put the router into bypass mode, plug a standard 100m (300') ethernet cable into the dongle and the other end into the router on the lower floor.

There are lots of other ways, including the recently advertized stuff on Amazon that I quoted recently, but they are more expensive and, in most (but not all) cases, involve cutting cables. Easiest is to stick the router on the roof and do the drop from the dongle.

Anyone familiar with ethernet setup will know how to do this once they get their head round the weird StarLink router/dongle arrangement.

@Shangrila385
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Shangrila385 commented May 5, 2023 via email

@JustOneGuyHere
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I have a bunch of questions about Starlink cables. Not a regular here at all, and not a techie but also not a total idiot. I don't know if this is the right thread. I'm here because someone posted the link in a Starlink discussion. I don't want to start in on it for nothing.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 22, 2023

@JustOneGuyHere; it's a gist about getting a cable longer than the official StarLink 150ft cable for where the dish (the rectangular one, the v2 IRC) is more than 150ft from a power source. Since it's about power delivery the gist described how to build a new cable (by cutting the original one) with an additional power (PoE) injector. As a result it covers the wiring of the cable (standard ethernet, non-standard PoE). It applies to other cases where the cable is not that long but where it is desired to get rid of the white "tombstone" router. Things other than PoE requirements are incidental; there's some discussion about other things (e.g. I described one, apparently, common failure mode of the system) but it's slightly off-topic.

@JustOneGuyHere
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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 22, 2023

@JustOneGuyHere; it's a gist about getting a cable longer than the official StarLink 150ft cable for where the dish (the rectangular one, the v2 IRC) is more than 150ft from a power source. Since it's about power delivery the gist described how to build a new cable (by cutting the original one) with an additional power (PoE) injector. As a result it covers the wiring of the cable (standard ethernet, non-standard PoE). It applies to other cases where the cable is not that long but where it is desired to get rid of the white "tombstone" router. Things other than PoE requirements are incidental; there's some discussion about other things (e.g. I described one, apparently, common failure mode of the system) but it's slightly off-topic.

I'm a civilian, and as such a little pathetic, but at least I admit it. I think I've learned that the Snow Melt feature winds up melting cables for many users (including us) and that there really isn't a realistic hack for it. I'm also standard user with a 50-foot cable and a dish mounted atop a 10-foot pole near the house. After replacing one cable with great difficulty, I've given up on Snow Melt and have turned it all the way off forever.

I'm told that even without the feature, what's in the dish uses 25-35 watts and generates some heat. Not enough to melt heavy snow (which we get sometimes) but I wonder if it'll be enough to keep ice from forming to begin with. Sorry if this is off-topic. If so, trust me, I'm not any kind of whackjob and will retreat right away. If you happen to be able to answer the ice question, I'd appreciate it. If you can't, I'll understand.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 23, 2023

I wonder if it'll be enough to keep ice from forming to begin with.

I don't know what failed in your/Starlink's kit, so bearing that in mind I'm just going to state the obvious.

Turn pre-heat on. It will cost you more in electricity but it might stop the snow-melt surge and that might be your problem. It's pretty much not possible to melt that cable, certainly not with the stock StarLink kit, even if the biggest surge I measured (which I don't quite believe) continued for a whole summer (when the cable resistance is highest).

In any case buy a power outlet tester and make absolutely sure the outlet the tombstone is plugged into is correctly grounded. If the outlet tester says anything weird call an electrician. Failing to ground the dish might result in static build up causing a static discharge that is sufficient to fry one of the four connectors. Failing to have adequate grounding in a house is much more dangerous of course.

Bottom line is that you have a failed piece of electrical equipment that indicates a major fault. I had the same problem and my conclusions are documented above, in a lot of detail; I try not to give conclusions, rather I document what I observe. This is github after all. I have my own conclusion which I don't think I've disclosed here but if you read what I said you can draw your own too.

@JustOneGuyHere
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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 23, 2023

Bottom line is that you have a failed piece of electrical equipment that indicates a major fault. I had the same problem and my conclusions are documented above, in a lot of detail; I try not to give conclusions, rather I document what I observe. This is github after all. I have my own conclusion which I don't think I've disclosed here but if you read what I said you can draw your own too.

I will check the grounding, but strongly doubt this is the problem. The house was built 6 years ago, and there have been no electrical problems anywhere in the house. The speed first slowed down greatly, then disconnected altogether. After several weeks (typical Starlink -- terrible customer service) a new router and cable showed up.

The new router didn't work on the first cable, and now works fine on the second cable. The issue of fried cables turns out to be common. The four wire pairs are 24 gauge, which is fine until the thermostat in the dish tells the router to increase the amperage to the dish, which heats up the electronics inside the dish enough to melt snow on the dish face. Unfortunately, those very same 24 gauge wires tend to get fried by the extra current, especially in places where there are months of thermostat-dictated heating events, most of which (ironically) aren't even necessary because they were generated not by the presence of snow but only by cold temperatures.

At this point, I've decided to turn off Snow Melt, and only wonder whether 25-35 watts still going to the dish will generate enough heat to keep ice from forming. I know it won't keep snow from accumulating, so I will handle that issue by duct-taping a windshield scraper to an extender pole and wiping snow off. I'm told that the film on the dish is fragile enough to make it inadvisable to scrape ice off, but I wonder whether or not that 25-35 watts of power going to the dish will be enough to keep ice off, or whether I'll just have to turn on Snow Melt during storms and risk another cable failure.

You know, this wouldn't be happening if Musk had simply hired a graduate of Electrician 101 class at a community college to build a cable with 14 gauge wiring inside, but that's not rocket science so why bother? Better to irritate a lot of people and ship out new cables with the same design flaw. It's what happens when you're too cool for school. LOL

@JustOneGuyHere
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Tested for grounding. As expected, no problem. I have ordered a current meter. Based on some reading, I believe that the router operates at 110-120V and 0.25A without Snow Melt, and at 5A in Snow Melt mode. I don't have a meter yet, but will be getting one and testing it. Given how many cables are being fried by Snow Melt (I'm far from the only Starlink user who's reported the fault), I think the 24-26 AWG wiring in the cables is inadequate for the task.

I will check to be sure, but I am pretty convinced that Starlink under-engineered the cable wiring. As I see it, they went full Rocket Science on the satellites and the dishes, but ignored Electrician 101 when they designed the cables. The remaining question is for how long I can overload the wiring before I fry the wires inside the poorly designed cable.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 24, 2023

5A in Snow Melt mode. I don't have a meter yet, but will be getting one and testing it.

Please report back on that. I live in SW Oregon so getting the dish to go into snow melt was pretty much impossible.

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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 24, 2023 via email

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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 24, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 24, 2023

I also found a Kill-A-Watt meter, and in summertime (right now), it's drawing 122-123V and 0.35-0.4A with Snow Melt off or on automatic. In pre-heat, it draws 0.9A.

It sounds like you are measuring the current into the router. The power consumption of the router itself should be fairly constant. There will be an extra power draw from the dish, but you can work out the raw power required by the router simply by powering it on with the dish not connected (do not connect or disconnect the dish to a powered on router; this causes a very significant power surge to the dish which is the most likely candidate for frying one or more of the four connectors). See my earlier comment:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4479847#gistcomment-4479847

I got my figures using the Tycon power injector described in this gist (not the router) so I was able to measure the current being sent down the cable. I also put a 2A fuse inline with the power delivery so that limits the short-term average current. The fuse never blew even though there is good reason to believe that there is a startup current/power surge which might be as much as 7A for a (small) fraction of a second (hence my comment about about not connecting a "hot" router to the dish). My detailed measurements start here:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4463407#gistcomment-4463407

If you look at one of the posts that follow:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4466245#gistcomment-4466245

You will see the graph of what actually happens during boot and after. This is using a Fluke 189 logging multimeter, pretty much the industry standard when it was bought for me it but I admit I've owned it for coming on 30 years and never got it recalibrated. The most telling figures might be the ones in the first comment: the dish apparently does consume close to 90W for short periods of time. 90W is the capacity of the router, some injectors can handle more but certainly not all of them.

I believe I left "pre-heat" on after my first post and you can see that the actual dish consumption hits a max of 1.6A but averages somewhere in the range 0.6 to 0.9A. This corresponds to a maximum power of 77W and an average over 5s in the range 29W-43W, consistent with the stated router capabilities.

It's almost impossible to guesstimate the actual power going to the router without a calibration of the router efficiency; the router takes 110-250V input and converts it to its own internal power requirements (5V or 3.3V, probably 5) and the dish requirements (48V). Efficiencies will be in the range 80-90% but the design might be dumb.

Nevertheless whatever excess current is delivered to the router when the dish is connected it is certainly an underestimate of the current going to the dish, because that current is at ~48V.

All the evidence so far is that the design of the dish produces significant surge currents under some circumstances. In particular there is evidence that there might be a very high initial surge if a charged, hot, PoE injector is connected to the dish. This is what I was doing with my Tycon setup and the tester I was using (which I don't trust) reported a 7A surge.

The surge should be no big problem for the components involved because they are mostly passive, maybe all; it's not clear how many diodes StarLink put into the circuit but it sounds like "none", that's one way of getting more power. My own tests prove that in my system the thing that fried was the connection (the connector) at the dish. It fried in a way that is consistent with an instantaneous surge. What caused that surge is impossible to say.

@JustOneGuyHere
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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 25, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 25, 2023

This is consistent what what I've been reading (maybe here?) that the dish use 0.30A with Snow Melt completely off.

That's consistent with my numbers; it would correspond to about 0.6A going to the dish. A rule of thumb assuming 80-90% efficiency in the router is that the current flowing to the dish MIGHT be about twice the extra current to the router. Maybe "pre-heat" increases it slightly but I suspect that will be thermostatically controlled (this doesn't cost enough money for StarLink to cost-reduce it out of the dish). I measure in February, before the current heat but it was still well above 0C.

Our dish is always connected, so what does that mean? It's not as if I climb the ladder and monkey around with the connector.

Don't start up, power cycle, the router without the dish cable connected. I.e. don't plug the dish cable into the router when the router is connected to the power supply; this causes a surge because the router socket is already powered up and the dish is waiting for juice. It says this in the instructions; if you follow the instructions step by step the router is connected to the power after the router is connected to the dish. Of course you have to look at this like a lawyer or a computer programmer to see that as a clear instruction.

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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 25, 2023 via email

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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 25, 2023 via email

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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 25, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 26, 2023

I did my best to read through the whole thread. It's frustrating because I have only a limited background, and among other things the acronyms have thrown me at times.

It's a long set of comments and there are more questions than answers (like why don't systems running of 12V batteries work as well as 110V systems?)

My answers are cryptic because I do assume a certain knowledge set but for your purposes there a really only two important things to understand. The first is the electrical power equation:

P = V × I

That matters because the dish requires a certain amount of power with any given configuration and the router (or PoE) has to delivery that power; voltage and current don't matter, only the product counts. The second equation is Ohms law:

V = I × R

This matters because the cable itself takes power; the power to drive the current (I) down the line, and that creates a voltage drop across the cable (V).

Maybe the important thing here is that what I was saying is that my numbers (as reported in the various links) are completely consistent with yours, except, maybe, for the pre-heat behavior. The difference is that you measured current at the router power inlet. That inlet takes a voltage between 110V and 250V whereas all my measurements are the current on the cable which has a power supply of 48V (I used a PoE but it is a 48V PoE like the router IRC.)

So the router has to convert 122V (AC) with 0.3A for the dish to 48V with whatever power the dish requires. The conversion isn't 100% efficient but it will be in the range 80%-95%; assume 90% (arbitrary). This would mean that the router/cable assembly are being supplied with 33W at 48V (DC) which is a current of 0.69A.

That's pretty much identical to what I measured; a 5s average of 0.6 to 0.8A, looks like 0.7A to me!

The pre-heat figure is, however, a bit of a problem; 0.9A less 0.07A for the router means 100W, at 90% efficiency that means the cable assembly is getting 90W and this is the quoted (faceplate) limit of the router. It's still well within the capabilities of the cable but it really is flat out for the system design. It's close to 2A up and down the cable (so the cable is carrying 4A total, still fine so far as I can see). Maybe that's the way StarLink designed it and maybe I didn't manage to switch preheat on properly (or maybe StarLink had it disabled in SW Oregon?)

Another question would be whether the cable problem might be not the cable wiring but the connectors. Note that I'm referring to a standard 50-foot cable connected to a Gen 2 dish.

I think it is the connectors but I don't see how anything the router delivers continuously is going to cause a problem.

Then you don't want me to connect the dish cable into the router when it's connected to the power supply, which I take to mean plugged into the wall.

Yes, because of the way the dish power supply inside the router seems to work. I believe it's a fairly basic passive PoE design (I haven't located a circuit diagram for the router so I can't be sure.) It is a passive design (or the hacks on this gist would not work) and I believe it directly converts the AC power at 60Hz/110V or 50Hz/220V to the 48V. This means that it has to retain sufficient energy between the two points where the AC hits 48V; it has to keep on delivering 48V even though the input voltage is less than 48V.

When you connect the dish to the router with the router already turned on my hypothesis is that this energy floods down the cable to charge the various power supplies inside the dish. This is an "inrush" current and it can be very large. Poorly designed (IMO) 19.2V laptop power supplies had a nasty effect of causing an arc - lightning, accompanied by a bang, thunder - when plugged into a power outlet, this happened for the same reason.

So my further hypothesis is that it's simply a bad idea to plug the dish into a powered on router because that inrush can cause an arc in the connector and, given the connector, easily damage it.

Guess what I did when I was first playing around with my new dish? I had it outside on the lawn and, using the 'phone app, I was testing locations. Because I didn't want to have to go back into the house to plug the router into the outlet I disconnected and reconnected the dish cable connection at the dish. As I reported above the connector between the cable and the dish is now fried; both sides. StarLink sent me a new cable but not a new dish... There's still a significant extra resistance in the connector within the dish mast. I've given up on StarLink but if I hadn't I would have got round to pulling out the dish connector (it's not impossible) and soldering my own CAT5e cable to the wires.

That's just my story of course, but I don't believe any of the reports which imply that the router can deliver way, way, more than 90W. (Of course I have a couple of routers now that I can destruction test, maybe I will one day...)

@JustOneGuyHere
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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 26, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 26, 2023

Is there enough resistance in four 24AWG 50-foot wire pairs to care about in the context we're discussing?

No.

The standard StarLink cable is 75ft, there are 8 24AWG wires in there, but they are twisted together so they are very slightly longer than 75ft. Not enough to matter I believe. They are also stranded in the StarLink cable; they are each 7 (or 11, I should count them :-) much thinner (31AWG?) wires but the "24AWG" should take all that into account. I normally find "engineeringtoolbox" to be a good resource:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

So each wire is around 0.2mm² in diameter and 8 of them are 1.6mm² This is a "cable assembly" so the whole thing has to be considered as a unit. It is equivalent to a 15AWG wire (a single wire). See this table:

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

The "maximum amps for power distribution" column is based on power loss; the resistance causing excessive loss of power. The value is 4.7A, so the CAT5E is approaching reasonable limits for power loss (and this is, of course, the point of this gist). The "maximum amps for chassis wiring" is the figure for temperature rise. The figure is 28A; this is the point at which the wire (cable in this case) starts to overheat. 28A is in'n'out; the router would be supplying 14A. That's 672W; well within the capability of a 15A US 110V power supply (1650W) but well beyond what the white tombstone can deliver.

For voltage drop it makes more sense to go back to the resistance of 24AWG wires because the fact that they are grouped together doesn't matter and it's just too easy to make mistakes through unnecessary complication. The standard StarLink cable is 75ft long, the longest they actually sell is 150ft long. The powerstream site gives 25.67Ω per 1000ft for 24AWG; that's actually solid and I don't know which number gets priority to determine AWG, resistance would make sense but I don't know. Using that number there are four conductors in and four out for a resistance of 6.4Ω per foot over twice the distance (there and back) times 150ft, 1.93Ω, pretty much 2Ω. I believe my measurements of the resistance of an actual cable were less than that so that seems a possible upper limit.

So that's a 4V loss for 150ft at the max of the StarLink router (2A). Hence the idea to go to a 52V supply for longer, e.g. 300ft; the standard maximum of the ethernet signal. 300ft at 24AWG (the other recommendation is to go to 23AWG CAT6) drops 8V which, IRC, is the lower limit of the PoE standards and StarLink isn't standard in this regard. For the standard cable the drop is 2V; irrelevant.

These figures are consistent with a reasonable assumption that the StarLink engineers checked what they were doing. I can criticize what they did in other ways, but not this one.

@crdiaz324
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Have you guys seen this? Here is a kit that plugs right in, avoiding the need to cut or invert your wires. https://techcharmer.com/products/custom-poe-injector

@torrmundi
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torrmundi commented Jul 30, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Jul 30, 2023

The YAOSHENG adapter avoids the need to cut the cable; https://www.amazon.com/YAOSHENG-Rectangular-Adapter-Connect-Injector The YAOSHENG PoE injector is rated at 3A, the TechCharmer PoE looks like a Tycon custom build in which case it would be 2.25A. The StarLink ethernet adapter ($25) can be hacked to make an adapter for the end of the cable as well. Cutting the hole removes the need for the dubious SpaceX connectors. I suspect the white plug is a standard PCB connector like one of the JST connectors.

@JustOneGuyHere
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JustOneGuyHere commented Jul 30, 2023

The standard StarLink cable is 75ft, there are 8 24AWG wires in there, but they are twisted together so they are very slightly longer than 75ft.

Sorry, the standard Starlink cable is 50 feet. It's in their specs, and I confirmed it by measuring the old one that I pulled out.

https://www.starlink.com/specifications

Starlink doesn't say whether it's Cat 5e or Cat 6a. I've seen it described both ways, but as I write I'm inclined to say Cat 5e. That would be 24 AWG. Ampacity for 24 AWG is 3.5.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.html

Now for the fun stuff. When my router is plugged in without the cable plugged in, it registers 0.07A at the indoor outlet. When the cable is plugged in, it registers 0.37A. Both numbers vary a bit but not much; the dish is drawing about 0.3A minus whatever resistance is in 50 feet of 24AWG and two connectors. That 0.3A is measured at the outlet, but there's a step-down transformer in the router that converts 120 volts to 48 volts. This turns 0.3A into 0.75A. Doesn't change the wattage: still 36 watts

My next door neighbor, also a Starlink user whose cable crapped out, measured 5A at the wall outlet last winter with Snow Melt running. Subtracting the 0.07A that the router uses, you get 4.93A delivered to the 48 volt power supply. Voltage stepped down, amperage stepped up to 12.5 over wiring rated for 3.5A . Either way, about 600 watts. (Okay, 591.6 minus a smidgen of power loss in the transformer.) It's becoming clear to me just why so many Starlink cables are failing. Would you use Cat 5e (or Cat 6a) to run power to a space heater?

Now that Starlink is fully commercial, it's becoming popular in rural areas. In places like mine, where it's cold enough to trigger the Snow Melt thermostat off and on for maybe half the year if left on the default "automatic" setting, I think this wiring is getting damaged a little bit each time until it finally gives out. I also note that the Starlink router label shows that it's a 2A device, yet my neighbor observed that it was drawing 5A when Snow Melt was running. I wonder if Snow Melt is frying both the routers and the cables.

My big remaining question is: How long does Snow Melt go on when it goes on? My guess is "not for long enough to fry the cables right away." This is why, when I click around and see reports of bad cables, the story is almost always that it worked for X months then suddenly stopped. In any case I will check that this coming December. When there's a storm, I'll sit next to the meter, turn on Snow Melt and watch what happens, and for how long. I see that Starlink says the dish will melt 1.5" of snow per hour. Sorry, that tells me nothing. At what angle? And what triggers its activation?

I am not an electrician. Didn't take Electrician 101 at the community college. I've had to do a bunch of research to figure this out, but the closer I look the more I think this explains a widespread Starlink problem. Finally, we might ask how something this basic and frankly stupid could happen (if I'm correct, that is.) The answer would be rocket science. Musk & Co. put all their brain cells into the rockets, the satellites, and the dishes, and wound up "assuming" the routers and cables. Kind of like when the space shuttle geniuses assumed those O-rings. Smart people are no less inclined to be oblivious than anyone else.

FINALLY ... if anyone can tell me how I'm wrong about this, I am much, MUCH more receptive to correction than it might seem.

@bghira
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bghira commented Jul 30, 2023

Sorry, the standard Starlink cable is 50 feet. It's in their specs, and I confirmed it by measuring the old one that I pulled out.

used to be 75. but it's honestly too much distance. i was always cutting and shortening.

@TyraelTLK
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TyraelTLK commented Aug 11, 2023

I can't find passive poe injectors with 4 pairs. Is it possible to use 2 of these making 2 custom Y cable to use only the 2 powered pairs of each injector?

https://www.alfa.com.tw/products/apoe03g?variant=39871024889928

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Aug 11, 2023

Is it possible to use 2 of these making 2 custom Y cable to use only the 2 powered pairs of each injector?

Yes but you have to know exactly what you are doing and it's pointless since the Tycon, as documented above, works just fine so long as correct wire pairs are swapped. If you don't want to do that the one I posted links to on Amazon doesn't require the wire swap. Seriously though, the cable has to be cut with any of these solutions (except the two most recently posted) so attach the RJ45 modular plus and it really is no more difficult to crimp those on with the correct wire swap than it is to crimp them on without a wire swap. (Both are error prone of course.)

A single APOE03G costs the same as a single Tycon PoE (USD15 from Amazon, USD10+postage direct from Tycon).

@TyraelTLK
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From Germany I see the Tycoon no more available from your link. From another it's 30€ but long time delivery, I ordered 2 days ago and it should arrive 24th but it hasn't been shipped yet (but it's too late for me in anycase). The APOE03G is 9.85 + 5€, total 25€ and should be here in 2-3 days.
Thank you!
Let's see if I'll be able to put together something that'll work ;)

@sjkjs
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sjkjs commented Aug 12, 2023

The Reolink power supply is out of stock and I can't find an equivalent replacement where I live. DC power supplies don't seem to advertise whether or not the DC negative is connected to ground, it seems to be luck of the draw.

How can I make sure that the CAT5e shield is correctly grounded when using a POE-INJ-1000-WT PoE injector? It only has + and - inputs. There's no terminal for ground. Is it safe to take any random 48-52V power brick and ground its DC negative output?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Aug 12, 2023

How can I make sure that the CAT5e shield is correctly grounded when using a POE-INJ-1000-WT PoE injector?

It's well documented in the Tycon specification; the PoE does a pass through on the shield. You need to use a PSU which is floating but general purpose PSUs should do that; the only one I've found that did actually ground the output was a LinkSys PSU designed for a particular piece of equipment. Test it first.

@sjkjs
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sjkjs commented Aug 12, 2023

It's well documented in the Tycon specification; the PoE does a pass through on the shield. You need to use a PSU which is floating but general purpose PSUs should do that; the only one I've found that did actually ground the output was a LinkSys PSU designed for a particular piece of equipment. Test it first.

The shield is meant to be grounded isn't it? I will be connecting the dish (via the PoE injector) to a network switch which is powered off a DC barrel jack and has a floating ground. So, if I used the Tycon injector and used its shield pass through, the shield would still be ungrounded at all 4 plugs (2 on the dish side, 2 on the switch side).

In this situation don't I need to explicitly provide it with a ground, or accept the risk of being ungrounded?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Aug 12, 2023

In this situation don't I need to explicitly provide it with a ground, or accept the risk of being ungrounded?

Yes, the shield should be grounded somewhere. You have to make an explicit decision where to ground it unless the PoE injector does it. (The PoE injector for my other PoE aerial, from my original ISP, does ground the shield.) Normally nothing else in the cable run (including surge suppressors) will ground the shield.

In my StarLink arrangement I had the dish plugged in to a surge suppressor then from there to the Tycon WT then all the way to my router; this was in a box outside the house. I ran the drain wire out of one of the RJ45 plugs and just connected that to the same ground as the surge suppressor.

In the arrangement with my prior ISP I put a surge suppressor on the outside of the house, in a box, and had waterproof RJ45 sockets on that. IRC I had a shield pass-through to the PoE but I could have grounded the shield of the incoming RJ45 inside the box and arranged not to connect it on the outgoing connection to the PoE, or broken the connection to the PoE by using an unshielded cable in the last step (wall jack inside the house to PoE.)

NetGear PoE switches do ground the shield; for the ones with the wall-wart and the low voltage DC supplies there is a grounding screw on the case, for ones with built in AC power the shield is connected to the AC ground.

The rule, if there is one, seems to be to ground at the power supply; the PoE injector. All the switches I have provide shielded RJ45 sockets and all those shields are connected together. On one (a new TrendNET 10G switch) the shield is also connected to the power supply socket (12V 1A barrel connector). On another NetGear switch (non-PoE) the shield is isolated from the barrel connector. Since you are using a a switch I would expect every shielded cable plugged into it to be connected together so if any get grounded they all will be.

@sjkjs
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sjkjs commented Aug 13, 2023

I ran the drain wire out of one of the RJ45 plugs and just connected that to the same ground as the surge suppressor.

Thanks for the explanation. That all makes sense.

I'm using a Netgear GC110P PoE switch which doesn't have the shield grounded and also doesn't provide a grounding screw. The shield seems to be disconnected from everything.

I like your idea of using one of the spare RJ45 ports and running a drain wire to somewhere else that does have a ground. I might look at doing that too.

@darconeous
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For what it's worth, I grounded my 200' setup at two places:

  1. Using a Cat-6 surge protector close to the antenna, ~120ft away from the house. This grounds the shielding and provides an arc path to ground for the twisted pairs.
  2. Grounding the shielding at the service entrance for the house, no surge.

The ground at the antenna is it's own ground spike. The ground at the house is the shared house ground (luckily I could run a wire to that on the exterior of the house). Unclear if I'm going to ultimately have galvanic problems. Hopefully not. Resistance between the two independent ground spikes is fairly low.

Originally both ground points were going to be full CAT-6 surge protectors, but I was having trouble with them increasing the resistance slightly so at some point I decided to just ground the shielding at the service entrance. That was before I switched to 52V, so perhaps I should revisit that... I'm hesitant to cut the wire though, since I can't un-cut it if it doesn't work out.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Oct 6, 2023

Resistance between the two independent ground spikes is fairly low.

I'm very interested in knowing what that resistance is :-)

@darconeous
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I'm very interested in knowing what that resistance is :-)

If I remember correctly, it was a few ohms. I don't remember what it was exactly, I just remember thinking "wow, that's lower than I expected". I have an outlet nearby with a ground that is connected to the house ground (not the ground that the antenna is connected to) so one day I got curious and pulled out the multimeter. But a low resistance makes sense, we have a lot of minerals in our clay-type soil that also has considerable moisture content. And I really buried that rod quite well.

I'm curious now, we just had a lot of rain. I can check again tomorrow.

@crdiaz324
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Is it possible to use 2 of these making 2 custom Y cable to use only the 2 powered pairs of each injector?

Yes but you have to know exactly what you are doing and it's pointless since the Tycon, as documented above, works just fine so long as correct wire pairs are swapped. If you don't want to do that the one I posted links to on Amazon doesn't require the wire swap. Seriously though, the cable has to be cut with any of these solutions (except the two most recently posted) so attach the RJ45 modular plus and it really is no more difficult to crimp those on with the correct wire swap than it is to crimp them on without a wire swap. (Both are error prone of course.)

A single APOE03G costs the same as a single Tycon PoE (USD15 from Amazon, USD10+postage direct from Tycon).

I've successfully used the techcharmer.com kit with my modified dishy without having to cut or swap any wires. The process involved connecting the provided cable from the kit to the plug in the back of the dishy, and subsequently to the POE's power output. Then I connected the POE to my router utilizing a standard ethernet cable I acquired from Amazon. This setup has proven to be incredibly reliable, running seamlessly for approximately 4 to 5 months. The kit was roughly $30. Hard to beat that IMO.

@JustOneGuyHere
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JustOneGuyHere commented Oct 20, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Oct 20, 2023

@JustOneGuyHere; @crdiaz324 was commenting on his previous post from July:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4645398#gistcomment-4645398

It's worth noting that TechCharmer now sell that Tycon lookalike PSU with what appears to be YAOSHENG adapter I posted a link to (two posts down from the above). Here: https://techcharmer.com/collections/our-products/products/starlink-dc-adapter-kit The Amazon link I posted no longer works but it's here:

https://www.amazon.com/YAOSHENG-Rectangular-Adapter-Connect-Injector/dp/B0BYJTHX4P

It's a nice move by TechCharmer; they've undercut the YAOSHENG very expensive PSU ($81) with an adequate and well proven power supply (assuming it is one of the Tycons), but they certainly seem to be selling the YAOSHENG adapter as part of it. Everyone benefits. The only downside to the TechCharmer solution is that there is no surge protection that I can see, but there is none on the official StarLink router (aka incredibly expensive PSU) so far as I know.

@WIMMPYIII
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Has anyone tried the new gen3 kickstand dishy.
Wondering if power layout is the same and if we are good to use the same POE PCBs that we use on the gen2?
i know the power requirement is higher and closer to gen1 / beta unit power demand.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Dec 14, 2023

The cable seems to be an RJ45 and there is a separate PSU (which powers the router which in turn powers the antenna):

https://www.starlinkhardware.com/starlink-gen-3-dish-launched/

Here is the StarLink "specification sheet":

https://api.starlink.com/public-files/specification_sheet_standard.pdf

So that's apparently RJ45 all the way which means StarLink are likely to either be using modern standards or the Gen1 design. The new router offers Gen1 compatibility but still uses the Gen1 PSU, so the Gen3 dish is most likely using the bt standard. Minimally the RJ45 connection to the dish has to be protected; think what happens if (when) someone plugs their device RJ45 into the StarLink port or plugs the Gen3 dish into a regular PoE.

The dish goes up in stated wattage, "75-100W" from the spec sheet, despite losing the motors. Losing the motors may well help with the connector arcing problem and, anyway, RJ45s are much easier to replace :-)

There's a picture of the power brick here:

https://www.starlinkhardware.com/starlink-gen-3-router-review/

and, zooming in, it's only faceplated at 60W (30V DC 2A) and it is a UL listed LPS, so unless Elon has built in one of those perpetual motion devices that's the maximum the dish can take on average. I'm guessing that the "spec sheet" is hooey and that the "100W" just corresponds to a peak current for a fraction of a second (as in the Gen2 measurements). The pictures on that page also show the router face plate and it lists "Input 1: 30V 1A", so I'm guessing that is just the router box, not the pass through to the dish.

One really weird thing is the compatibility of the router with the Gen2 dish; scroll down the last link above and you will see a picture of the setup. The new router is connected to what looks like the standard Gen2 ethernet dongle, read the text and you will see it is the configuration we all know and hate; the Gen2 (dish) router becomes a separate power brick for the Gen2 dish. Just goes to show what a dogs breakfast the Gen2 dish cabling is.

Even though the Gen3 dish is using what appears to be an RJ45 connector (it has an extra rubber boot) that doesn't mean that it is using a standard PoE solution; I'm just suggesting that given the widespread available of very efficient electronics (FETs instead of diodes for protection etc) it only really makes sense to use one of the standards. The standard implementations can deliver way more power than the power brick.

If the dish has "diode" style protection then it might still work with the swapped connectors so long as it is fine with 48V (not the 30V from the PSU) and so long as it doesn't do active negotiation. That said I wouldn't try it; connecting a passive PoE to an arbitrary device not explicitly documented as requiring the given voltage and wiring strikes me as dangerous.

It may be that the Gen3 dish can be connected safely to an active PoE; it may not work but the active PoEs are designed not to deliver more than a few volts unless the connected device does the right resistor dance. Still, absolutely no guarantees; given the wacky Gen2 dish wiring I regard any such non-approved connection as an experiment.

@WIMMPYIII
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I find it very odd that the power is said to be higher but the power supply is 30v 2a 60w vs 48v 2a 96w. gen1 brick is even a little higher at 56v.
I am disappointed that they dropped voltage to 30v. this is a really ugly in-between number and not as capable extending distance as 48-56v hardware. It could be alot more finicky adjusting for voltage and amp drop.
30v would not be a bt or any typical POE standard.
We need a brave soul with a gen3 to plug in a cable with isolated exposed pairs to do some pick testing while the dish is running. figure out what pairs are doing what and at what voltage.

@Shangrila385
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Shangrila385 commented Dec 15, 2023 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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I want to see a brick and cable combo that will carry a signal and voltage a long distance. I develop condo highrise projects. I see the need to put antennas on the roof and drop cable down 20 floors to individual units.. gen 2 will not work without major cable mods..  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, December 15, 2023, 1:09 AM, WIMMPYIII @.> wrote: Re: @. commented on this gist. I find it very odd that the power is said to be higher but the power supply is 30v 2a 60w vs 48v 2a 96w. gen1 brick is even a little higher at 56v. I am disappointed that they dropped voltage to 30v. this is a really ugly in-between number and not as capable extending distance as 48-56v hardware. It could be alot more finicky adjusting for voltage and amp drop. 30v would not be a bt or any typical POE standard. We need a brave soul with a gen3 to plug in a cable with isolated exposed pairs to do some pick testing while the dish is running. figure out what pairs are doing what and at what voltage. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub or unsubscribe. You are receiving this email because you commented on the thread. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS or Android.

On a building you could put an enclosure location with ac for the power brick and then 200ft or so down from the brick for a total of 330ft or less. This is a hard issue for a tower or tree installation though.

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Dec 15, 2023

I find it very odd that the power is said to be higher but the power supply is 30v 2a 60w vs 48v 2a 96w. gen1 brick is even a little higher at 56v.

As you say for PoE standards compliance the minimum voltage at the power injector is 50V, going up to 52V for 802.3bt "type 4" (the 100W variant). All I could find was the data for the power brick and the input of the the latest router (Gen 4?). The maximum voltage in the standards is still 57V, so if the new (Gen 3) dish is PoE 802.3 compliant there is a voltage doubler in the router; these are cheap to implement and very efficient in some of the charge pump implementations.

The PSU brick I found a picture of is apparently not the version distributed in the package with the Gen3 dish. The picture shows a two prong NA-only wall-wart (the prongs can't be changed) but the StarLink and other pages all show an AC cable in the full package and an IEC-320-C7 ("figure-8") socket on the PSU. The wall-wart is more than adequate for the new stand-alone router when used with Gen 1 and Gen2 because they both had separate power adapters for the dish itself.

It's even possible that the "real" PSU has multiple outlets and different voltages, but then I would expect the router to list multiple inputs.

We need a brave soul with a gen3 to plug in a cable with isolated exposed pairs to do some pick testing while the dish is running. figure out what pairs are doing what and at what voltage.

The Gen3 dishes still seem to be "invitation only", but the corresponding router is meant to be available for $199 on its own (possibly with a different PSU). Testing the router should not be a big problem, for one thing there won't be any voltage on an RJ45 breakout plugged in to the dish port after a fraction of a second if it's an 802.3 PoE.

@Shangrila385
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Shangrila385 commented Dec 15, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Dec 15, 2023

So tell me what I need to know in plain English if you would. I think I would need rj45 cable, but what gauge and cable type is best?

You're at the limit of copper (twisted pair) Ethernet tech. You need to span a 200ft rise plus however many feet there are to the dish location and, at the other end, the router in someone's apartment (if I understand what you are trying to do). Twisted pair ethernet is limited to 100m (~328ft) max for all cable combinations. For StarLink you could drop from gigabit ethernet to 100Mbit but users can tell if they know how to check.

Your best bet is probably the Gen1 kit at present (since we don't know what Gen3 is yet...) Gen1 has a power injector and uses RJ45, I believe that allows the injector to be remote from the router. Alongside the 100m of Ethernet cable you run 100m of local code approved power cable (what this is varies enormously with region) correctly sized for the run length and local code requirements. In the US IRC it's something like no more than 10 or 20% power loss. This is discussed in this gist (the original stuff, right at the top!) In fact at 240V you can probably ignore this; 300ft of 14AWG power cable is about 5Ω (there and back), 100W at 240V is 1/2.4A, so that's under 1W loss in the cable if I got the arithmetic right.

With Gen3 if it really is possible just to use off-the-shelf RJ45 in place of the StarLink (150ft) cable then you need CAT5e (as used with Gen2) or CAT6 (including CAT6A). CAT6 normally uses 23AWG in the varieties of cable you would use but quadruple check that it really is (ideally measure the actual resistance!) Normally look for "pure" copper cable (not CCA - copper clad aluminum) but if you are buying a pre-fabricated cable (easiest, normally the best connections) check the actual resistance; send it back if it is too high.

Resistance figures vary, this site https://www.kbe-elektrotechnik.com/en/service/awg-table/ has 70.1Ω/km, so that 7Ω/100m. All 8 conductors are used in Gen2; we certainly don't know about Gen3 yet, so 100m has 7/4Ω there and back, 3.5Ω round-trip. So look at the original gist; the original assertion is that Gen2 becomes unstable at 2.5Ω. If that is correct you are limited to 70m for a CAT6 cable. Doing the same calcs for CAT5e at 24AWG, 89.2Ω/km, and I end up with a max run of 56m which is close to the longest, 150ft, official StarLink cable (CAT5e).

You could try a longer cable and check for stability of the system with the original router and, for Gen2, one or other of the ways of adapting the connectors at each end to RJ45 (minimizing the probably 24AWG CAT5e that is left.)

If you are actually building the structure then make sure there is building power on the roof, make sure the apartment (etc) owners/lessors pay for the shared power in their lease agreement, stick a suitable (SFP) router up there and run fibre to each floor, or maybe even each unit. Get some techie in to set up a commercial internet link, possibly a commercial StarLink one and do the maintenance (which will be required.) It is possible to do individual StarLink antennas with that arrangement but you put the routers in bypass mode on the roof and run the data down using VPN tech; techie required (a good one.)

@Shangrila385
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Shangrila385 commented Dec 15, 2023 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Dec 15, 2023

On a general note WiFi-6 has a stated range of 45m; curiously close, well, the same as, the length of the longest StarLink Gen 3 cable. This is "line of sight" - i.e. nothing between the sender and receiver other than thin (we hope) air. WiFi-5 comes in at 25m or so, about 80ft, but I run WiFi (not WiFi 6 yet) between my own buildings which are about 100ft apart.

So a Gen3 with power and the standard (package) setup can, in fact, do a WiFi link at way more than the StarLink max speed to something 150ft away; WiFi-6 maxes out at 9.6Gbps. I manage that on my CAT5e Cu twisted pair network but only in a carefully tested setup; less than 100ft (maybe 50). In fact WiFi-5 at a theoretical 3.5Gbps is still way more than StarLink (residential) and my own copper network.

TP-Link (who I regard as reputable) have a range of "WiFi extenders" starting (based on Amazon prices) from $20 for a WiFi-5 one. So far as I can see it should be possible to use one of these to set up what is effectively a point-to-point solution; no need for copper or fibre. I've looked at p2p in the past but they have been somewhat more expensive ($100's rather than $10's) and often lower bandwidth (10Mbps).

The solution does require power at both ends but I find that fairly easy (at low power) even without solar.

@SailorBruce
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I have a CradlePoint router w/ a PoE++ (802.3bt) port that will push up to 60W. I don't live in a snowy area, so I plan to keep the snow melt off. My thought was that I could swap the pinouts to make the antenna work directly from the router as a PSE (power source equipment) and eliminate a whole bunch of custom cables, and a dedicated PoE injector. However, it doesn't seem to be working....

Is this possible? If so, how should I build the termination that comes out of the antenna and connects to the PoE router port?

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 19, 2024

Is this possible?

No. The StarLink antenna doesn't support any of the PoE protocols so a PSE which uses them simply won't send out any power. The latest 802.3 standards have plenty of power but it would require a 48V 802.3bt PoE tap (a splitter) to get the 48V out , e.g:

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Industrial-Gigabit-PoE-Splitter/dp/B08KYHX1QS

Then it would be necessary to take the 48V output and wire it back to a passive injector... In other words pretty much twice as much work (you just save power cabling from the 802.3bt PSE to the PD, the antenna.)

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 19, 2024

Off topic but still relevant to understanding the Gen 2 antenna here is a good, clear, description of how the 802.3 PoE standards work:

https://www.skyworksinc.com/-/media/SkyWorks/SL/documents/public/white-papers/understanding-the-ieee-8023bt-poe-standard.pdf

The circuit breakdown of the Gen2 router suggests to me that it lacks the electronics to do that, although it does seem to have the ability to measure current draw so there might be some communication capability there. The mixed up wiring of the ethernet pairs, however, prevents 802.3bt working; IRC the antenna looks like a shorted-out PD.

@WIMMPYIII
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I have a CradlePoint router w/ a PoE++ (802.3bt) port that will push up to 60W. I don't live in a snowy area, so I plan to keep the snow melt off. My thought was that I could swap the pinouts to make the antenna work directly from the router as a PSE (power source equipment) and eliminate a whole bunch of custom cables, and a dedicated PoE injector. However, it doesn't seem to be working....

Is this possible? If so, how should I build the termination that comes out of the antenna and connects to the PoE router port?

60w isnt going to cut it.

@SailorBruce
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SailorBruce commented Feb 19, 2024 via email

@WIMMPYIII
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WIMMPYIII commented Feb 20, 2024

Thanks for the info. I have a much better understanding of the issue now that I've failed a bit and read the SkyWorks doc. I now have working power and signal to the rectangular (gen2) dish. It makes sense that you have to flip the conductors to put power on the wires that Dishy wants, then swap the wires back so that the signal is back to where it is supposed to be. I'm still having problems though. About every 40-50 seconds, the PoE injector reboots. I get the same behavior with different cables, and when I plug dishy into my laptop or the router. This is from the router:
@.***: /]$ tcpdump -n -i starlinkvlan tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol decode listening on starlinkvlan, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length
262144 bytes
13:19:32.638287 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:36.638274 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:38.181021 IP6 fe80::2412:acff:fe1a:8001 > ff02::2: ICMP6, router
solicitation, length 16
13:19:39.698323 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:42.788281 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:46.244886 IP6 fe80::2412:acff:fe1a:8001 > ff02::2: ICMP6, router
solicitation, length 16
13:19:48.458300 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:51.538347 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 303
13:19:51.540257 ARP, Request who-has 192.168.100.100 tell 192.168.100.1,
length 46
13:19:53.556754 IP 192.168.100.1.67 > 255.255.255.255.68: BOOTP/DHCP,
Reply, length 300
13:19:53.578276 IP 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: BOOTP/DHCP, Request
from 3a:30:44:66:d7:83, length 315
13:19:53.588961 IP 192.168.100.1.67 > 255.255.255.255.68: BOOTP/DHCP,
Reply, length 300
If you wait 40 seconds, it happens again. When I am plugged into the laptop, I can get 18 (sometimes 17, but never 20!) ping responses before the interface goes down and the laptop reports no path to host. It is as if Dishy is expecting something from the router and when it doesn't get it it reboots.... To make sure I hadn't broken something, I plugged everything back into the Starlink router. I used a different (and tested) ethernet cable, but the same RJ45 keystone connector that is wired into Dishy. Everything worked swimmingly, so I didn't break anything when I cut the back off of Dishy for the mount (www.starmount.com, no affiliation). That was a relief, but still not helpful. The only thing that I haven't eliminated from the problem is the PoE injector. However, it is brand new and works fine when I power my Raspberry Pi and move lots of data through it. Does anyone have documentation on the exact meaning of the LED status lights on the Yaosheng Model: YSNEAPL12001A ? Is there an extra step that I have missed in configuring the network that Dishy creates?

How well have you read over this thread. 60w is not enough to run a SL gen2. You realistically need near 100w power supply run stable. Gen2 peaks at well over 60w. The stock power supply is 96w and is pushed to its absolute limit at 150ft.

@SailorBruce
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SailorBruce commented Feb 20, 2024 via email

@Missoulajeff
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Missoulajeff commented Feb 20, 2024 via email

@jbowler
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jbowler commented Feb 21, 2024

The PoE injector will support up to 120W. Once I have it more juice from the bench power supply, it all got stable. The 5A current limit was starving Dishy.

Ah! Yes; this is a reported problem with boost converters. It seems from my measurements that there is a sudden very brief amp draw at pretty much exactly the time you reported the PoE/dish reboot. Here's the data:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4466245#gistcomment-4466245

So there is a large inrush (maybe) just after 40s; around 3.4A (see the comments at the end of my post). Buck converters seem to handle this ok while some (at least) boost converters do not. The Yaosheng is apparently designed for a battery supply (12V or 24V) and that would give it a large surge capability. One contributor above uses a super-capacitor on the output side but I don't like that because, while it would handle an inrush, it could fry the connectors or the ethernet magnetics; better to put it on the supply side of the boost converter.

Here's an earlier, and more conservative, measurement of the power requirements, the amperage graphs above are likely to be more accurate:

https://gist.github.com/darconeous/8c7899c4d2f849b881d6c43be55066ee?permalink_comment_id=4463407#gistcomment-4463407

I couldn't find Yaosheng documentation either. It seems likely that they have done the measurements properly (i.e. using better equipment than I have) to get robust designs but that doesn't mean they designed the 120W version to work off anything other than a battery...

On average the current draw at 48V without snow-melt or pre-heat is under 1A. During boot it goes up to maybe 1.4A but this corresponds to the effects (on the average) of the large inrush at 45s (3.4A). Adding snow melt (etc) seems to add maybe 0.25A. Solar systems with a 48V battery should be fine but they need to provide at least 1A continuous (over 24 hours) to keep the Dish up and running.

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